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Ok, religious folks....

 
black 2017-01-05 11:19:49 

Time to explain some of the contradictions in the Bible.

Anyone feel free to add your contradictory bit.

How do you turn the other cheek, then turn around and dig out a man's eye? As in eye for an eye.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 11:23:13 

In reply to black

The entire book is a contradiction. wink

 
Tryangle 2017-01-05 11:26:15 

These ones always make me pause:

1 Samuel 15:3 New International Version (NIV)

3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

I've read the borderline ridiculous counter-argument:

Including the children in the destruction of such populations actually spared them from a worse condition—that of being reared to be as wicked as their parents and thus face eternal punishment. All persons who die in childhood, according to the Bible, are ushered to Paradise and will ultimately reside in Heaven. Children who have parents who are evil must naturally suffer innocently while on Earth


Like, what the hell?

And then you get Deuteronomy 24:16:
"Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin."

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 11:31:54 

In reply to Tryangle

“To be fair, much of the Bible is not systematically evil but just plain weird, as you would expect of a chaotically cobbled-together anthology of disjointed documents, composed, revised, translated, distorted and 'improved' by hundreds of anonymous authors, editors and copyists, unknown to us and mostly unknown to each other, spanning nine centuries” - Richard Dawkins

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 11:36:10 

I realize that this tactic is similar to that used by the Political media...easily explained words or actions dramatzed to get separate sides at their peak of fervor.

I will attempt to educate anyway.

The Israelites were not to seek personal justice...

Exodus 18:

16 When a case arises, it comes to me and I must judge between one person and the other, and I make known the decisions of the true God and his laws.”

22 They should judge the people when cases arise,* and they will bring every difficult case to you, but every minor case they will decide. Make it easier for yourself by letting them share the load along with you.

22 They should judge the people when cases arise,* and they will bring every difficult case to you, but every minor case they will decide. Make it easier for yourself by letting them share the load along with you. 26 So they judged the people when cases arose. A difficult case they would bring to Moses, but every minor case they would judge.


Leviticus 19:15
22 They should judge the people when cases arise,* and they will bring every difficult case to you, but every minor case they will decide. Make it easier for yourself by letting them share the load along with you. 26 So they judged the people when cases arose. A difficult case they would bring to Moses, but every minor case they would judge.


The principle of eye for an eye applied to the Judges, they were not to overstate their power, but be fair in administering the Law.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 11:38:30 

In reply to Ayenmol

I realize that this tactic is similar to that used by the Political media...easily explained words or actions dramatzed to get separate sides at their peak of fervor.


We know. Exposing religious stupidity is all part of the Fake News phenomena. lol

 
black 2017-01-05 11:41:16 

In reply to Ayenmol

The principle of eye for an eye applied to the Judges, they were not to overstate their power, but be fair in administering the Law.


But, there are plenty of instances where punishment was not administered by judges.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 11:42:50 

In reply to black

But, there are plenty of instances where punishment was not administered by judges.


Get ready for 2 pages of cherry picked Bible quotes in your yin yang. lol

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 11:59:20 

In reply to Tryangle

Now this is a valid case. Not one of mis charaterization.

This one takes understanding Divine law and the concepts of the Creator in removing persons who were not serving him from before his people.

The number one issue facing the Israelites were that of false Worship. When a Nation was to be destroyed then all were to be destroyed. Who would take care of the Children? They would not be allowed to continue as a stumbling block to God's people.

These though were often done by God himself. Not by human hands.

This has little to do with genocide of today, where man decides who lives and dies based on Race, Nationality, Religion or otherwise. These pronouncdments came from God.

Those who do not believe in God would say otherwise.

But this is no different from the Flood of Noah's day!
A Country executes it's worst. An employer dimisses the unwanted. A landlord evicts the uncooperative.

Well...if you are no longer cooperating with God where does he evict you to? Life itself that we posses belongs to him.

So if you can give yourself life, can form your own Solar System, then feel free to ask him for an eviction to that which you have created.

 
Kay 2017-01-05 12:05:33 

In reply to black

Time to explain some of the contradictions in the Bible.

How much is some? To even point out 1% of the myriad of contradictions in the bible and the different versions of the books will take an eternity

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 12:11:52 

In reply to black

But, there are plenty of instances where punishment was not administered by judges


The only time when the bloodguilty were to be killed by an "avenger of blood" is in murder cases.

There was to be just one avenger, not the entire family. And only in a case of malicious loss of life.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 12:13:30 

In reply to SnoopDog

Get ready for 2 pages of cherry picked Bible quotes in your yin yang.


Because yours are not cherry picked, right?

Maybe you need to learn the meaning of that word phrase.

 
steveo 2017-01-05 12:18:35 

In reply to Ayenmol

Is the bible for everybody or for the israelites? I am asking because you are saying some instructions are for them and others for us, why not give each his own, are you sure god inspired this madness?

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 12:22:32 

In reply to SnoopDog

We know. Exposing religious stupidity is all part of the Fake News phenomena


First of all you have not "exposed" anything. So quit complimenting yourself on fiction.

Secondly, fake news is a new phenomena. Baiting people for clicks, views, etc has been a device of media forever. It's why Fox news has more viewers than PBS news hour.
But people like you live in a different reality so your stance here is self explanatory.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 12:26:55 

In reply to steveo

The Israelites were a people chosen from Bloodline. Direct descendants of Abraham. They were selected as a people separate from others and given a set of laws to protect them from false religions of the time until the Messiah who would come through that bloodline.

Once the Messiah came then All mankind had a means to gain forgiveness of sins.

There were laws given meant for that time and people but many principles that remain in tact.

Romans 10:4

4 For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 12:29:03 

In reply to Ayenmol

So quit complimenting yourself on fiction.


The only work of fiction under discussion in this thread is The Bible. lol

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 12:30:16 

In reply to SnoopDog

Not to mention your huge ego and self adulation...good day.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 12:31:06 

In reply to Ayenmol

Not to mention your huge ego and self adulation...good day.


Now THERE's a compliment! lol


Thanks Brah. big grin

 
black 2017-01-05 12:32:26 

In reply to Ayenmol

The Israelites were a people chosen from Bloodline. Direct descendants of Abraham. They were selected as a people separate from others and given a set of laws to protect them from false religions of the time until the Messiah who would come through that bloodline.


So we are playing favorites now? No other bloodline was good enough?

 
pelon 2017-01-05 12:35:41 

In reply to Ayenmol

The Flood of Noah's day!


What flood? You mean the bibles flood story that plagiarized the The Epic of Gilgamesh (tablet 11), a Mesopotamian story?
For your academic reference: Gilgamesh- 2000-1500 BC and Noah- 600-400 BC

Do you know of the Epic of Gilgamesh? Which was around for 100's of years BEFORE Noah?

Please note: I respect that, as you previously stated, you have no other opinion than: "it is the word of god", I am only asking you if you are AWARE of the exact story seen in the Bible also appeared many 100's of years before in Mesopotamian mythology.

It is a direct conflict to say god gave NOAH instruction when the same story predated Noah's birth....

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 12:35:57 

In reply to black

He calls Gawd's chosen people a Nation. In bronze age times Egypt was a nation, the Hittites were a nation. By comparison the fcuking Israelites were no more than a little village tribe. lol

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 12:38:16 

In reply to pelon

What flood? You mean the bibles flood story that plagiarized the The Epic of Gilgamesh, a Mesopotamian story?

Do you know of the Epic of Gilgamesh? Which was around for 100's of years BEFORE Noah?

Please note: I respect that, as you previously stated, you have no other opinion than: "it is the word of god", I am only asking you if you are AWARE of the exact story seen in the Bible also appeared 100's of years before in Mesopotamian mythology.

It is a direct conflict to say god gave NOAH instruction when the same story predated Noah's birth....


There you go again with that high society elitist book learning education of yours trying to cast doubt and disagreement on the word of gawd and his little book of bronze age fairy tales.

Shame on you Bro. lol

 
steveo 2017-01-05 12:39:21 

In reply to black

So we are playing favorites now? No other bloodline was good enough?


Dude, in my book, I am the hero.

 
pelon 2017-01-05 12:41:15 

In reply to SnoopDog

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
We will see what he says.

 
black 2017-01-05 12:45:50 

In reply to SnoopDog


There you go again with that high society elitist book learning education of yours trying to cast doubt and disagreement on the word of gawd and his little book of bronze age fairy tales.

Shame on you Bro.


lol lol lol

 
Drapsey 2017-01-05 12:46:10 

In reply to Ayenmol

The Israelites were a people chosen from Bloodline. Direct descendants of Abraham. They were selected as a people separate from others and given a set of laws to protect them from false religions of the time until the Messiah who would come through that bloodline.

So, they have been chosen. You and I aren't. Story done!

Your continued aspiration appears to be doomed in futility.

 
nick2020 2017-01-05 12:48:07 

In reply to pelon

I will not even attempt at engaging black and snoop so here we go:

Why does black feel a need to persecute religion? The Bible has a consistent theme of the righteous being persecuted for their beliefs and black is playing the role perfectly. If I believed in the Bible these attacks would be quite prophetic and reinforce my views.

I believe there are two choices we have in life:

1. Pull ourselves us
2. Push everyone else down

I am always trying to find the answer to the enigma of life. I do it by studying, thinking and engaging. Ridiculing someone's beliefs only will make someone feel better about himself but not actually be any better off.

Science nor Religion explains to me origins. I wonder if we will ever understand it. It is so difficult to comprehend the beginning and the inevitable question of what comes before the beginning.

No one has the answer so why mock someone who finds comfort in one of his choosing?

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 12:56:21 

In reply to nick2020

Of course it is right and incumbent on every right thinking rational person to mercilessly mock religion and it's endless stream of nonsense and stupidity.


For millennia religion has played a part in being a source of authority to subjugate and repress humanity and reason. Mocking religion was one of the first steps to emancipation from it's authority and it's claim that it was the source of all the answers to the questions about the natural world.


Jesus fcuking Christ, I can't believe I still have to explain this shyte to people here. rolleyes

 
pelon 2017-01-05 12:57:35 

In reply to nick2020

1. Pull ourselves us or 2. Push everyone else down


Fundamentally, I stand on the 1st option.

I don't think black et al. sets out to really mock anyone, and in the same way - my questions to Ayenmol i hope, should not come over as a disrespect to his beliefs. 90% of the people in the Caribbean are religious - many deeply religious. To challenge religion in a disrespectful way is foolish, and in reality a from of self-hate.

On the other had, to challenge religion with points and counter points based on facts, even opinions.... sign me up all day. Even Mr. Snoop has added valuable contributions with his knock out punches....

You can't find a thread or a post where I mock someones opinion. You can find many where I challenge religious convention. So I agree with you completely.

So dear Nick, join the discussion now: Did you know of 'The Epic of Gilgamesh'?

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 13:00:05 

First off. The Story of the Flood was not penned by Noah, but by Moses centuries later.

The fact that there are many accounts of a flood like doom in various cultures is quite interesting.

Next Bloodline. Abraham was the one chosen because of his faith in God.

Someone was going to be chosen, it happened to be him. That does not mean he is the only one. Moses was chosen to lead Israel out of Egypt. Many prophets were chosen. Mary was chosen to be mother to Jesus, etc.

That shows that we can have a real relationship with God.

Back to the flood. Funny how you want to use these outside sources to deride the Bible instead of coming to the realization that maybe they are all stories of the same occurence? Like the one which flood is of a river? You know like how the Egyptians drowned in the Red Sea.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 13:01:50 

In reply to pelon

There are still some religious nutbags out there who still believe the earth is flat!

They concede that the moon and the sun are round (because they could see it for themselves) but still believe that the earth is flying through space like a fcuking Frisbee.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 13:04:58 

In reply to Ayenmol

The fact that there are many accounts of a flood like doom in various cultures is quite interesting.


"Interesting" as in you have no answer to the obvious contradiction to your biblical fairy-tale when facts are thrown into the mix. lol

 
pelon 2017-01-05 13:06:41 

In reply to Ayenmol

First off. The Story of the Flood was not penned by Noah, but by Moses centuries later.

The fact that there are many accounts of a flood like doom in various cultures is quite interesting.
Don't get clever and convenient, it is 'the word of god' so said Moses - and IF it is the word of god, how can it appear BEFORE Noah was born in EXACT detail? Moses placing Noah as the protagonist of the Great Flood is a plagiarism - and chronologically impossible.

It's like saying, 700 years from now that 'Lara the Great', scored 375 against England in 1476 in Miami

Won't make sense then, don't make sense now. 3/5 facts means you DISMISS. You have to be more objective and INVESTIGATIVE in your biblical scholarship.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 13:10:29 

In reply to pelon

Don't get clever and convenient, it is the word of god so said Moses - and IF it is the word of god, how can it appear BEFORE Noah was born in EXACT detail? Moses placing Noah as the protagonist of the Great Flood is a plagarizim - and chronologically impossible.

It's like saying, 700 years from now that 'Lara the Great', scored 375 against England in 1476

Won't make sense then, don't make sense now. You have to be more objective in your biblical scholarship.


Bro, you'll have more luck (and fun) rationalizing religion, and contradictions found in the bible, with a cardboard box than with Jesus freaks.lol


Oil and water stuff. big grin

 
pelon 2017-01-05 13:19:25 

In reply to SnoopDog

Looking at conflicts and contradictions, surely even he can smell the rat on the Flood Story.

It takes a BRAVE person in the Caribbean, esp. in our smaller islands to 'challenge' the status quo and control methods have guided us for centuries. Having gained independence of thought, something our ancestors DID NOT HAVE, it only takes honest research (non-academic stuff) to say:
"Ok, is story A the same as story B"
No? .... case closed, no conflict
Yes? then which came first?
and...
(insert logic path)

 
nick2020 2017-01-05 13:40:30 

In reply to SnoopDog

For millennia religion has played a part in being a source of authority to subjugate and repress humanity and reason.


That means you must mock any and everyone who believes in the ideology but has not personally done you a thing?

And that is logical to you?

I hope I do not pay for the sins of my fathers.

 
black 2017-01-05 13:45:11 

In reply to nick2020

I hope I do not pay for the sins of my fathers.


The bible says you will.

And, how is asking for clarification, mocking the bible and its followers?

 
nick2020 2017-01-05 13:48:03 

In reply to pelon

I know the Epic of Gilgamesh. Was taught it in Civ 1 and enjoyed it so much that I took Civ 2. I really enjoyed his search for immortality but I figure you are leading me to the story of his flood.

It is of no coincidence that many civilizations in different time periods have stories attempting to make sense of our existence. Philosophers were today's scientists.

There are two types of people in the world. Did I mention this already?

1. Those who are searching for the answer
2. Those who could not be bothered

No one in this thread has the answer. Certainly not Snoop nor Black. I have asked before. They will tell you what ain't but not what is. I have said this before only to be ridiculed:

God self-created.
Matter self-created.

Seems the scientists and the religious believe in the same crazy notion.

 
nick2020 2017-01-05 13:53:31 

In reply to black

The bible says you will.


What is the point in quoting from a text that you do not believe in? To prove an empty point?

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 14:01:51 

In reply to nick2020

No one in this thread has the answer. Certainly not Snoop nor Black.


Religion was humanity's first attempt to answer the complexities of life, the natural world and the universe. Since it was our first attempt it was also our most primitive and unsophisticated.

The age of the enlightenment and with it, the scientific method, represents our present more sophisticated attempt to answer the complexities of life, the natural world and the universe. No longer do we have to rely on ancient religious superstitions to understand how the tides work, the causes and cures of diseases, how and why certain creatures adapt to their environment, etc.

Science, and scientists, do not make the claim that they know everything. Only religion makes that absurd claim.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 14:03:32 

In reply to nick2020

What is the point in quoting from a text that you do not believe in? To prove an empty point?


It's a thread about contradictions in the Bible. And he was merely pointing out one of yours (since you obviously missed it). wink big grin

 
pelon 2017-01-05 14:05:12 

In reply to nick2020

I figure you are leading me to the story of his flood
Yes, more specifically, Tablet 11. A fable Moses impossibly attributes to Noah - who was born LONG LONG after said event.

Also please add a 3rd category:
1. Those who are searching for the answer (fluid)
2. Those who could not be bothered (vacuous)
3. Those who accept what they are told (static).

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 14:22:51 

In reply to pelon

Yes, more specifically, Tablet 11


Tablet 11 also contains the story of the giant reptiles, who roamed the earth an entire day before Adam and Eve inherited same. lol

 
pelon 2017-01-05 14:27:47 

In reply to SnoopDog


I will wait to see if Ayenmol will come up with any meaningful/rational other than "interesting" - on how Noah could be attributed to the IDENTICAL flood myth.

small steps though.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-05 14:34:42 

In reply to pelon

I will wait to see if Ayenmol will come up with any meaningful/rational other than "interesting"


The standard retort of any religious person caught in a contradiction or any rational quagmire is "well it's what I believe and it's a matter of faith".


Believe it or not I have no problem with that answer. Religion has no business explaining things rationally since it's very foundation and a pillar of the institution is the privilege of faith over reason. The problems arise when religion tries to employ rationality and reason to justify itself instead of saying "look, it's based on faith. Either you believe it or you don't. End of discussion".

 
Tryangle 2017-01-05 15:03:43 

In reply to Ayenmol

These though were often done by God himself. Not by human hands.


Thanks Ayenmol, although if it's done by God himself, I'd have expected a verse indicating that "God smote the *choose your tribe*, as opposed to directing the Israelites to kill the opposing tribe (incl. women and children).

I still see conflicts here, and cannot yet see a differentiation between more modern-day genocide

 
nick2020 2017-01-05 16:06:29 

In reply to SnoopDog

And he was merely pointing out one of yours


What is my contradiction?

 
Ridge 2017-01-05 16:47:25 

Rant all you want. A day of reckoning will come.

 
pelon 2017-01-05 16:57:02 

In reply to Ridge

A day of reckoning will come.
Exactly. Death is the great equalizer - to the earthen soil we shall ALL go - and the only singular truth for us all.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 17:52:59 

Really can't keep up. You all can believe whatever you want. Guaranteed that those who share these views did not come to them based on research but rather that they went searching for thesc to solidify their already existing belief.

When i use words as funny and interesting, it somehow lands as uninforned. But i have heard it all. Thing is you all have placed your faith in documents that are proven works of fiction and state for a certainty that the dates of their occurence are definite.

The Bible does not place a date on the Flood at all. So am not sure why you all think that because there are fables and stories written before the actual Bible then that proves that the Bible plagiarized.

Fact...moses was born long after Creation...but he wrote about that under divine inspiration. He also wrote about the Tower of Babel, the Flood etc as given to him by the Bible's author.

The fact that there are other stories tells me that this occured and the reasons behind it or details werd obscurred for centuries. Many fables come from truth that has been distorted over time.

Surely Noah and his children would have told their children about the Flood and these stories would have been passed on. So these proves absolutely nothing.

What does it say that you rely on the ancient writings to dispute the Bible, yet casually dismiss the fact that every single culture, people and civilization has a God, deity etc. Why?

Every one has a need to Worship. It is precisely why most of you take so much pride in your assault on the Bible because not even your conscience will allow you to dismiss it without forming some rationale.
Why does'nt any civilization have fables and stories based on evolution? Why? Not one civilization was able to communicate that their ancestors could not speak, but now, Voila!

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 18:27:52 

Also, you all love to point to scholars. I can direct you to any number of scholars who have supported the Bible or point to the Flood as a real event.
But my faith is not based on scholars. Though it is interesting that you seek to separate yourselves as learned and those who believe the Bible as unlearned.
Yet there are any number of scientist, lawyers, Biologist, educators, zoologist etc who are true Christians.

I can show you accounts by many who study the DNA of humans who marvel at it's complexity. They struggle with the notion that this came about by chance. But apparently all the well educated think like you right?

This sort of thinking is precisely what the Bible warns to guard agsinst and what leads to separation of persons above others.
Isaiah 44:

25 I am frustrating the signs of the empty talkers, And I am the One who makes diviners act like fools The One confounding the wise men And turning their knowledge into foolishness;

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 18:34:29 

Btw mr, snoopdop...i am waiting for your well educated reply regarding the extols of Darwinism.

As usual you all make your proclamations but give no answer when refuted but rather run to another misguided and onesided argument.

 
XFactor 2017-01-05 18:48:31 

In reply to pelon

On the other had, to challenge religion with points and counter points based on facts, even opinions.... sign me up all day.
An awesome thread would ensue should that happen. “Great minds discuss ideas” – I don’t remember who said that, but it’s quite true.

Then this:
Even Mr. Snoop has added valuable contributions with his knock out punches....

Well, a discussion on religion, Christianity in particular, often brings out the most lurid angry little snots with non-constructive blabbing that offers nothing to the discussion. To have a meaningful discussion there has to be depth of knowledge on the topic and not only the surface part which can be easily distorted.

If  Ayenmol thinks he is going to use this as a teaching lesson for those that have sincere questions, he is wrong. This thread was started to annoy and dehumanize people whose views do not fit theirs.

Good luck with the “counter points based on facts, even opinions....” part. lol

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 19:04:48 

In reply to XFactor

You are right. Am also very aware. It does give me a reason to search the scriptures further. I find it stimulating.

I know these people are better ignored.

Am also aware that most Religions do not teach their followers, and these people sometimes fall prey to these supposed learned men.

 
XFactor 2017-01-05 19:23:39 

In reply to Ayenmol

A civilized discussion can be stimulating and will increase your own knowledge to speak your truth.

It’s about targeting ideas more than individuals. Unfortunately here, it usually ends up the other way around.

 
black 2017-01-05 19:43:21 

In reply to XFactor

To have a meaningful discussion there has to be depth of knowledge on the topic and not only the surface part which can be easily distorted.


So that knowledge does not exist here?

Who do you want to invite to the discussion, the Pope?


And where are we going to have this discussion? It's not going to happen in the Church.

 
black 2017-01-05 20:04:46 

In reply to Ayenmol

Fact...moses was born long after Creation...but he wrote about that under divine inspiration.


What exactly is devine inspiration? Modern humans do research to gain knowledge.

 
pelon 2017-01-05 20:07:19 

In reply to Ayenmol


The Epic of Gilgamesh (tablet 11), a Mesopotamian story was WRITTEN AND RECORDED BEFORE the bible.

Remember your thread post where you said the bible was the first record of history? IT WAS NOT.
I did not pull this out of a hat, it was well investigated and researched my many. The similarity between the original and the one in the Bible, is remarkable, EXCEPT that Moses said it was Noah. (who was not alive for another 1000 years)

Noah was born almost 1000 years after the Epic of Gilgamesh was RECORDED/WRITTEN in stone.

DO you now see the huge elephant in the room?

You can't have the second version be "the word of god" and INSERT you own protagonist (Noah) and call it "truth".

Forget the noise. Just investigate this with honesty of mind and get back to me.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 20:13:53 

In reply to pelon

Prove it....all i have read on that subject has placed all sorts of differing dates.
Not sure how you come to this conclusion...apparently you want me to research your belief.

 
pelon 2017-01-05 20:15:08 

In reply to Ayenmol

Excuse me, but prove what? Please explain.

Christian scholars, not non-belivers, have proven The Old Babylonian tablets (circa 1800 BC) are the earliest surviving tablets for a single Epic of Gilgamesh narrative. The stories are documented to belong to the Third Dynasty of Ur (circa 2100 BC)

Not even the church refutes this.

Come on man.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 20:16:54 

Your Gilgamesh theory and how exactly you come to these dates.

Really? And according to your vast knowledge when was the flood of Noah?

 
pelon 2017-01-05 20:22:25 

It is not theory.

The Epic of Gilgamesh is RECORDED in stone, in walls, in tablets... and it LONG predated Noah...

Have you done YOUR research? You are the quintessential zealot. Dismiss ANYTHING that challenges a closed mind.

I am not disrespecting your view. I am not asking you to agree with me. I am asking you to spend a bit of time and investigate the ORIGIN of one story alone: The Flood. When did it first appear in history and when did 'Noah' become the protagonist.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 20:28:55 

In reply to pelon

Gilgamesh is said to have lived 2500 to 2700 bc....so am not getting you...statd youf point or the conversation is over....Sir, many historians believe the flood took place about 3000 BC...again your point?

 
pelon 2017-01-05 20:35:45 

In reply to Ayenmol

1. The Flood fable was recorded LONG LONG before Moses recorded it. [something you claim not to be true]
2. Moses replaced the original protagonist with 'Noah'

Those are my only two points.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 20:48:40 

In reply to pelon

So this is what you believe is a smoking gun? Really?

So what uou are saying is that the Flood may have occured and was recorded at some point even before Moses actually wrote his version?

So that proves the Bible to be false? Or does it prove that something happened and there were early writings even before the Bible that alude to it, even in fables.

Now you do know that the Bible states only 8 souls survived right? So you think they never spoke about it? That no tales would have spun from it? That people who later went back to the very type of life wiped out during the flood would not have given their own version?

Or do you actuallg think that Moses claimed to have lived during the flood?

Because am not sure otherwise.

Many accounts recorded in the Bible were from earlier times. There are also many prophecies that were written ahead of time and fulfilled.

Do you think that faith in the Bible is based on the Flood only? Or historian accounts?

The Bible places no date on the Flood, or Creation...those accounts were given to Moses in vision by God. Some can attempt to date it based on geneology, but even then you have to depend on the Bible because outside of that there is little...particularly in the writings you claim to be historical accounts.

 
pelon 2017-01-05 20:52:58 

In reply to Ayenmol

Clearly nothing I said resonated with you.

I did not say Moses lived during the flood.

I said that by time Moses was born the tale was ALREADY WRITTEN AND RECORDED but with a different protagonist.

So we close this discussion because clearly you are attributing things I never said into the dialog. A scheme of obfuscation I want no part of.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 20:53:10 

In reply to pelon

The Flood fable was recorded LONG LONG before Moses recorded it. [something you claim not to be true]


False...what you said was that Gilgamesh story ov the Flood occurred well before Noah! That Gilgamesh himself lived before Noah...that is where you lost me.

 
pelon 2017-01-05 20:56:01 

In reply to Ayenmol

The Epic of Gilgamesh is the FIRST recorded 'written' version of the flood story. It pre-dated Moses.

Moses comes along and changes the protagonist to become Noah....

Case close. How is that complicated?

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 20:58:14 

In reply to pelon

Sir, this is what you wrote....

Do you know of the Epic of Gilgamesh? Which was around for 100's of years BEFORE Noah?


This is completely different to what you are now saying.

1. The Flood fable was recorded LONG LONG before Moses recorded it. [something you claim not to be true]
2. Moses replaced the original protagonist with 'Noah'

Those are my only two points.


Wow....yet you all claim the Bible , written over a 1700 year period is the work of man, while you cant keep a story straight written over a few hours.

 
pelon 2017-01-05 21:00:23 

In reply to Ayenmol

Which was around for 100's of years BEFORE Noah?
Thanks, but that was to be Moses.

My clear point is repeated 100 times.

If Moses wrote based on the "word of god" why did the characters change?

So if ONE typo gets you all excited, but post after post gets ignored, it then becomes clear you refuse to be objective.

For your clarity:

1. The Flood fable was recorded LONG LONG before Moses recorded it. [something you claim not to be true]
2. Moses replaced the original protagonist with 'Noah'

 
birdseye 2017-01-05 21:00:57 

What is the purpose of believing in and worshiping God –a God? Is it out of some fear, if yes, of what? surprised

 
pelon 2017-01-05 21:04:01 

In reply to birdseye

They fear what the Bible tells them will happen if they dont believe: eternal hell and fire and brimstone and torment and devils and darkness and ..... we go on forever... you get the drift.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 21:05:36 

Now that you have updated your stance, my query stands....why is Gilgamesh's account the go to one? You yourself claim it is a fable. All accounts call it a poem. Fiction, no doubt made from real events passed down through tales.

Moees got the account of Creation from God. He was not there! He also got the account of the Flood from God!

Since Gilgamesh's account is simply one fable with many other fictional tales while the Bible's chronology otherwise is pretty set...i mean our calender is set by the thing...am thinking there is more truth there. But mostly because the Bible's account does not stop there but continues to dates that we are well aware of and are proven!

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 21:08:10 

In reply to pelon

If Moses wrote based on the "word of god" why did the characters change?


Is that a serious question? Because am not going to bother!
I wasted about an hour trying to find where on earth it was ever written that gilgamesh lived before Noah. Your whole argument is that there were fables about the flood before Moses was inspired to write the account?

That there is a different name used in Gilgamesh account? Really? How many civilizations have similar stories but differeng characters?

 
pelon 2017-01-05 21:10:00 

In reply to Ayenmol

it is very convenient to have a fable repeated in great detail, written by Moses 1000 years AFTER the original and claim the Original was not true.

If that's how you roll... fine.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 21:31:29 

In reply to pelon

Sir, you need to understand the Bible, then you will understand this stance.

The Bible is not an eyewitness account of History from Creation to today.
That is actually what makes it believable and Stories such as Gilgamesh, quickly dismissed as fables. Because there is real geneology than can be traced to just 2000+ years ago...It touches every aspect of human life, from the physical to the emotional to the spiritual.

Written by 40 men who never contradicted each other. Nevermind whaf flimsy nonsense these naysayers bring up. In just a few hours, you made a critical mistake that totally confused me, yet men who lived centuries apart wrote the Bible and it is irrefutable...not just one story but many...dates, people, civilizations, rulers, nations. All covered. Information found no where else, like creation, and then those that touched many who would write their own stories.

Did i make a statement about the Bibles being the oldest book of history.. yes ..but i did not mean this. Nor does the Bible say that it is the only place that these things are recorded.

I would also think that any thinking person would understand that fables would exist about an event as cataclysmic as the Flood of Noah...i think that would bolster the faith of someone, not diminish it based on which one was written first.

Some people seem to think that there was only one Religion or story, but even in jericho Rahab had heard what Jehovah did in Egypt....you think those stories she might have heard was more accurate than what the Israelites knew happened?

Notice that the writer in that story is the hero, as is the case with many in history. Their writings extol their greatness. Moses did not paint himself as a hero. He recorded many of his faults, failures. All the writers of the Bible did. The only two perfect people in the Bible never wrote a word...Adam or Jesus. Rather others wrote under inspiration.

Thus what we get is the viewpoint of people like ourselves, under the direction of The Almighty.

How loving yet genius, a true Godly act.

 
XFactor 2017-01-05 21:33:12 

In reply to Tryangle

These ones always make me pause:


1 Samuel 15:3 New International Version (NIV)

3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”


Biblical history would provide some understanding of what may have led to the demise of the Amalekites.

There has been a long standing hostility between Amalekites and the Israelites. The Amalekites had engaged in remorseless brutality against the Israelites for a long time, during the period of leaving Egypt and for many generations later.

This may have been the last straw here: Deuteronomy 25:17-19 New International Version (NIV):

17 Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. 18 When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and attacked all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God. 19 When the Lord your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!


The Amalekites repeatedly tried to destroy the Jewish people for whom God had a plan.

You can draw your own conclusion and call that incident what you will, but my take-away is that there are consequences for your actions, especially when you go against God.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 21:43:06 

In reply to XFactor

Portions of that is true...but Egypt, and specifically Pharoah went up against Jehovah, and he did not wipe them out.

There were certain Nations that the Israelites were to destroy totally. This had more to do with their proximity to the Land of inheritance and their false worship than with their treatment of the Israelites in the Wilderness. Keep in mind the reasoon the Israelites were in the Wilderness was becauuse of their own lack of faith.

 
XFactor 2017-01-05 21:49:16 

In reply to Ayenmol

Yes and all that too, but there had been a long history of bad-blood between the two groups.

My intent was to show the broad based history. Can't explain it all..not in one shot. smile

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-05 21:51:25 

In reply to XFactor

True.

 
black 2017-01-05 22:05:38 

In reply to XFactor

Isn't that what is happening in Syria today? Some people would lose faith in religion based on such brutality.

 
nick2020 2017-01-05 22:09:10 

In reply to pelon

We will not live long enough to find out but you know there will be a generation to come after us that will not use science to figure things out?

Yes it sounds crazy.

Just as crazy as when someone said in the medieval period "you know one day we will not rely on the church to figure things out".

 
runout 2017-01-05 22:48:47 

Blacks, why do religious folks have to justify their faith to you or anyone else for that matter? Faith is an individual thing.

Why should they feel that compulsion to account to you?

Anyone can believe in anything without justificstion.

 
Norm 2017-01-05 22:53:00 

In reply to black

How do you turn the other cheek, then turn around and dig out a man's eye? As in eye for an eye.

Maybe you and a few folks on this thread should follow pelon's advice and do your own research - the modern, scientific way.

Start by trying to understand something about the very questions you pose. Start by reading the Bible thoroughly, then continue by researching the historical context, then research the opinions of others who have spent a lot of time studying these matters.

Otherwise, you are merely promoting ignorance and mischief.

 
XFactor 2017-01-05 22:54:41 

In reply to black

The headlines coming out of Syria proves people has already lost faith in religion.

Some claim the destruction against Syria is a prophecy being fulfilled. Isaiah 17 tells us Damascus will be in ruins.

Isaiah 17:1 – NIV

See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins.


Is this a fulfillment of biblical prophecy or coincidence, you tell me?

 
XFactor 2017-01-05 23:06:50 

In reply to Norm

Start by trying to understand something about the very questions you pose.


I've already tried explaining exactly that to him. By throwing out random meaningless questions and then denying everything said to him without any sensible counter makes whole discussion become ludicrous.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-06 10:33:18 

In reply to pelon

Even the birth story of Jesus Christ Superstar is plagiarized. lol

 
black 2017-01-06 11:51:02 

In reply to XFactor

I've already tried explaining exactly that to him. By throwing out random meaningless questions and then denying everything said to him without any sensible counter makes whole discussion become ludicrous.


Your argument is not very convincing. Everything is subjective, there's no way of going back. You are asking me to walk blind, (by faith) that's not how researchers do things.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-06 12:24:07 

In reply to black

And you are yet yo make an argument. Your explanation of life is as derth as yiur ability to ask a meaningful question.

For all the posturing and finger pointing, you all's explanation of life require more faith in the unseen than does belief in the Creator.

What you are asking people to believe has no precedent and has bever been seen or duplicated.

Man designs things all the time...every thing in your life has a team of designers and manufaturer...not one thing has been made by throwing unrelated items into a blender and hoping for a useable item to pop out.
Not even a tasteless consumable health shake can be made from throwing idle edible foods into a blender.

 
Tryangle 2017-01-06 12:25:17 

In reply to XFactor

On the prophecy angle, we've seen that many recent tragedies, particularly those from natural disaster, are attributed to either prophecy or (more dangerously) admonishments from Biblical passages.

From the tsunami in Indonesia to Hurricane Katrina to the earthquakes in Haiti, they're often followed up with claims that they represent a warning from God, or a punishment from God, or in the case of survivors, that they were spared because they were believers or the like. And the reasons vary from lack of faith to people (in unrelated regions) committing [choose a sin].

It becomes difficult for someone objectively (and yes, possibly also unable or unwilling to try and delve deep into Biblical studies) trying to rationalize those lines of thought, especially when it comes to innocent lives.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-06 12:27:35 

In reply to Ayenmol

Man designs things all the time


Including, but not limited to: God, The Bible, every religious book ever written, every religion... big grin

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-06 12:28:36 

In reply to Tryangle

It becomes difficult for someone objectively (and yes, possibly also unable or unwilling to try and delve deep into Biblical studies) trying to rationalize those lines of thought, especially when it comes to innocent lives.


You cannot rationalize something which is inherently irrational.

 
black 2017-01-06 12:31:37 

In reply to Ayenmol

Man designs things all the time...every thing in your life has a team of designers and manufaturer...not one thing has been made by throwing unrelated items into a blender and hoping for a useable item to pop out.
Not even a tasteless consumable health shake can be made from throwing idle edible foods into a blender.


Exactly, but you have not presented such evidence other than hearsay.

 
XFactor 2017-01-06 13:47:31 

In reply to black

I myself could not be a believer in God if it was just a blind leap of faith. I believe there is good historical evidence. I have taken a step of faith based on evidence.

I’m not going to engage you in some silly Q&A session where whatever I say you dispute without any semblance of what I’m talking about.

So what is the evidence?

For example, there’s overwhelming historical evidence that Jesus existed. No serious historian would suggest that Jesus didn’t exist. Leaving the Bible aside, we know from historians like Tacitus and Suetonius that Jesus existed. The first century historian Josephus wrote Jesus. Go look up their works.

Of course most of the evidence comes from within the Bible, but there is also textual evidence outside of the bible. Historical evidence is evidence.

We can continue this discussion if you are willing to do some homework.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-06 13:49:45 

In reply to XFactor

For example, there’s overwhelming historical evidence that Jesus existed. No serious historian would suggest that Jesus didn’t exist. Leaving the Bible aside, we know from historians like Tacitus and Suetonius that Jesus existed. The first century historian Josephus wrote Jesus. Go look up their works.


All of that is false. You cannot make up history to suit and justify your batshyte religious beliefs. Just saying. wink

 
XFactor 2017-01-06 14:22:38 

In reply to SnoopDog

You just don’t know when to shut up!

And you don't have to be a Christian to grasp such a concept. lol

 
XFactor 2017-01-06 14:25:13 

In reply to Tryangle

God created the universe and with it the laws of nature. We will have natural disasters because the laws of nature is broken.

To say that every natural disaster is a punishment from God is unequivocally false.

God has the power to stop natural disasters, as well as allowing it to happen.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-06 14:27:32 

In reply to XFactor

And you don't have to be a Christian to grasp such a concept.


The concept of bullshyte (ie. making up history to validate your batshyte religious beliefs) has been around for ages Bro. lol

To quote Mark Twain: "Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool". cool

 
black 2017-01-06 14:30:58 

In reply to XFactor

Mary of Magdala, is a figure in Christianity who, according to the Bible, traveled with Jesus as one of his followers. She is said to have witnessed Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection.[3] Within the four Gospels she is named at least 12 times,[4] more than most of the apostles. Based on texts of the early Christian era in the third century, it seems that her status as an “apostle" rivals even Peter's.[5][unreliable source?]

The Gospel of Luke says seven demons had gone out of her,[Lk. 8:2] and the longer ending of Mark says Jesus had cast seven demons out of her.[Mk. 16:9] She is most prominent in the narrative of the crucifixion of Jesus, at which she was present. She was also present two days later, immediately following the sabbath,[3] when, according to all four canonical Gospels,[Matthew 28:1–8] [Mark 16:9–10] [Luke 24:10] [John 20:18] she was, either alone or as a member of a group of women, the first to testify to the resurrection of Jesus.[6] John 20 and Mark 16:9 specifically name her as the first person to see Jesus after his resurrection.

Ideas that go beyond the gospel presentation of Mary Magdalene as a prominent representative of the women who followed Jesus have been put forward over the centuries.[3][4][7]

Mary Magdalene is considered to be a saint by the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran churches—with a feast day of July 22. Other Protestant churches honor her as a heroine of the faith. The Eastern Orthodox churches also commemorate her on the Sunday of the Myrrhbearers, the Orthodox equivalent of one of the Western Three Marys traditions. During the Middle Ages, Mary Magdalene was regarded in Western Christianity as a repentant prostitute or promiscuous woman,[8] accusations not found in any of the four canonical gospels.[3


I don't doubt the existence of Jesus, but where is the proof that any of this happened, other than what these impartial people said?

 
XFactor 2017-01-06 14:35:27 

In reply to SnoopDog

making up history


I don't know how I can make up history. It existed way before me.

Don't lower yourself like that bro. You are starting to make me look at you with the same lens as I look at Black, and that's not a complement. lol

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-06 14:38:02 

In reply to black

I don't doubt the existence of Jesus


There were at least a dozen "Jesus" or messiahs around the time if Herod. Herod of course was a real historical figure.

The Roman historians actually wrote contemporaneous accounts of many of them including John the Baptist. However, there currently exist no contemporaneous 1st century writings on or about a person known as Yeshowa Bin Joseph (Jesus is the Greek translation of this name). That is a historical fact.

The Jesus freaks would love to make up shyte that their sky daddy really existed in order validate their beliefs (and invalidate their secret doubts) but history is just not on their side. big grin

 
black 2017-01-06 14:41:38 

In reply to SnoopDog

Sky Daddy. lol

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-06 14:45:38 

In reply to XFactor

I don't know how I can make up history. It existed way before me.

Don't lower yourself like that bro. You are starting to make me look at you with the same lens as I look at Black, and that's not a complement.


I would love for you to hate me Bro. lol

When religious people say they hate, or have nothing but contempt for me, it usually means I'm doing something right. lol

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-06 14:46:41 

In reply to black

Sky Daddy.


A.k.a their heavenly Kim Jun Il. lol

 
Tryangle 2017-01-06 14:58:26 

In reply to XFactor

God created the universe and with it the laws of nature. We will have natural disasters because the laws of nature is broken.


To you, is it because of the presence/emergence of sin that the 'laws of nature' were broken?

 
XFactor 2017-01-06 14:59:45 

In reply to SnoopDog

I would love for you to hate me Bro.


Why such low self esteem?

I never said I hated you.

Low self esteem is common amongst those laden with guilt and shame.

Snoops, there is a way out....

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-06 15:15:19 

In reply to XFactor

Why such low self esteem?

I never said I hated you.

Low self esteem is common amongst those laden with guilt and shame.

Snoops, there is a way out....


My self esteem is just fine Bro. I'm banging Dr. Dukes wife! lol

 
XFactor 2017-01-06 15:21:18 

In reply to Tryangle

God created our world perfectly. Human actions have turned it into a state of chaos which has violated the laws of nature.

God allows natural disasters to happen just as he allows people to commit sin in this world without, seemingly, immediate punishment. God can reach out and suspend his laws of nature for a moment to avert complete annihilation, and I'’m positive he has done so form time to time.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-06 15:40:28 

In reply to XFactor

God created our world perfectly. Human actions have turned it into a state of chaos which has violated the laws of nature.

God allows natural disasters to happen just as he allows people to commit sin in this world without, seemingly, immediate punishment. God can reach out and suspend his laws of nature for a moment to avert complete annihilation, and I'’m positive he has done so form time to time.


Quite the imagination you have there young fella. lol

 
black 2017-01-06 16:35:44 

In reply to SnoopDog

Quite the imagination you have there young fella.


lol

 
nick2020 2017-01-06 16:38:52 

In reply to black

Tried and true way to get a thread with legs right?

 
black 2017-01-06 16:47:57 

In reply to nick2020

Tried and true way to get a thread with legs right?


Anything substantive to add? If not, STFU.

 
nick2020 2017-01-06 16:48:52 

In reply to black

I did already.

Thread dead.

 
Norm 2017-01-06 23:48:58 

In reply to black

How do you turn the other cheek, then turn around and dig out a man's eye? As in eye for an eye.

I don't know if anyone tried to answer your original question above, but "an eye for an eye" came from Moses, while "turn the other cheek" came from Jesus.

When asked for his opinion about the laws of Moses, Jesus said (in Matthew 18:9) that Moses "permitted" cruelty because of "the hardness of the heart" of the Hebrews in Moses's time.

So, Jesus effectively agreed that "turn the other cheek" would be inconsistent with "an eye for an eye", etc.

Despite what most "believers" will declare, the Bible is not a single, coherent and flawlessly repeating mantra. It contains a large number of inconsistencies, which probably explains why there are so many Christian denominations.

Jesus himself had to address some of these inconsistencies, because of the persistent questioning of the Pharisees (the leading Hebrew religious sect in Jesus's time), who hoped to trick Jesus into offending either the Hebrews or Romans with his answers.

Regardless of what we believe, the Bible in its present form has been mankind's most influential book for the past 500 years. Parts of the Bible refer to events that were also recorded (hence important) in other ancient sources, and the Bible is a major reference for archaeologists.

Trying to understand humanity today without a good knowledge of the Bible and its influence on today's world is probably like watching a foreign language movie without sub-titles. Such an appreciation also leads naturally to the realization that the same is true for other major religious documents, and even the so-called "mythology" of many ancient cultures.

Arguing about the "truth" about God and religion is futile and a grand waste of time, but developing an understanding of humanity through religious (and other) documents is priceless.

 
Kay 2017-01-07 02:15:28 

In reply to XFactor

God allows natural disasters to happen just as he allows people to commit sin in this world without, seemingly, immediate punishment.

You talking about God man. How can he allow that kind of nonsense? Seems like God looks for his own fun at the peril of mankind ... well, according to you

 
black 2017-01-07 08:46:05 

In reply to Norm

I don't know if anyone tried to answer your original question above, but "an eye for an eye" came from Moses, while "turn the other cheek" came from Jesus.


Lesser documents have been proof read for accuracy.

When asked for his opinion about the laws of Moses, Jesus said (in Matthew 18:9) that Moses "permitted" cruelty because of "the hardness of the heart" of the Hebrews in Moses's time.


They are talking about punishment as if it is not a big deal . This is the same thing that is happening in Islamic societies today . The way in which these punishments are spoken about and carried out, is more an indication of ignorance than anything else . Just the ease in which these punishments are talked about, indicate to me , that there is no devine intervention but a bunch of " rag tag " people , trying to impose their will on society .

Many of these acts are just plain torture , that only a bunch of ignorant people would find acceptable . It is real skulls that are being bashed, real hands chopped off, a real person murdered by family members to defend their family honor.

Anyway , I appreciate the honesty in which you approach this subject . I can tell right away when someone is being objective or bias .

 
black 2017-01-07 09:34:45 

In reply to XFactor

God created our world perfectly. Human actions have turned it into a state of chaos which has violated the laws of nature.


So he punished all for the actions of a few.

God allows natural disasters to happen just as he allows people to commit sin in this world without, seemingly, immediate punishment. God can reach out and suspend his laws of nature for a moment to avert complete annihilation, and I'’m positive he has done so form time to time.


This makes very little sense. I guess the people that wrote "the good book" had to find ways to explain/justify acts of nature that they (nor God) had no control of.

 
black 2017-01-07 09:53:42 

In reply to Kay

You talking about God man. How can he allow that kind of nonsense? Seems like God looks for his own fun at the peril of mankind ... well, according to you


Exactly how I see it, and people actually try to defend this nonsense. If you took away their bibles and allowed them to think, this would be an outrage, but it's acceptable because it's coming from God.

We know people suffer in these acts of nature, so why are they allowed to happen? Pure fiction

 
XFactor 2017-01-07 23:03:06 

In reply to Kay

Miss Kay, on the contrary, God is the giver of life. He does not want to hurt people.

Natural disaster happens because in a world of sin, nature was turned out of its god-given course. God does not cause calamity. We live in a world governed by natural laws that was given to us by God who created nature. It does not mean that everyone who dies in natural disasters are dying because of a specific sinful episode. Bear in mind we have all sinned.

God himself endured the pain of rebellion and hostility of a sinful human race against him. He took upon himself the consequence of our sins so that we shall live.

 
XFactor 2017-01-07 23:27:33 

In reply to black

So he punished all for the actions of a few.


Only a few has sinned? Really?

I suppose you are not amongst those that have sinned. Well, because you are living a life full of goodness and grace... The self-righteous Black has done no wrong. You feel entitled to your holier-than-thou attitude, even the power to scrutinize God.

 
np 2017-01-07 23:53:45 

In reply to XFactor

He took upon himself the consequence of our sins so that we shall live.

If so, and true --- why are we dying like flies????? Be careful of these types of blasphemy....

 
black 2017-01-08 00:18:00 

In reply to XFactor

I suppose you are not amongst those that have sinned. Well, because you are living a life full of goodness and grace... The self-righteous Black has done no wrong. You feel entitled to your holier-than-thou attitude, even the power to scrutinize God
.

Ok, I have sinned but what are my sins? I might have indulged on a little pleasure before marriage, during marriage and a few other minor infractions but I have not killed anyone, I am not a thief or drug dealer or a scammer, what is the punishment for those infractions, death?

And, what about babies dying? What sins have they committed?

 
Avatar 2017-01-08 08:02:23 

In reply to np

That test there is referring to eternal life, which His death on the cross has made possible for all of us. Once you surrender to Him and live for Him instead of your selfish desires then, when He returns to the earth a second time then you will go to Heaven to live and reign with Him and you will never die!!!

I'm praying that you will give your life to Jesus and be counted among the redeemed!!!

 
black 2017-01-08 08:22:48 

In reply to Avatar

That test there is referring to eternal life, which His death on the cross has made possible for all of us. Once you surrender to Him and live for Him instead of your selfish desires then, when He returns to the earth a second time then you will go to Heaven to live and reign with Him and you will never die!!!


Isn't that like sucking-up?

Why do you have to wage a campaign to get to heaven?

Why not live a life of goodness and let the chips fall where they fall?

 
Avatar 2017-01-08 09:23:47 

In reply to black

Because if you go to heaven without being transformed into His likeness, Heaven is going to be a hellish experience for you. Thats why the scripture tells us that we must be born again. Part of that born again process is being transformed to love the thing God loves and doing the things He would do. A mere " being good and letting the chips fall where they may" is NOT enough to secure the greatest prize on earth.

Look at those who win gold medals at the olympics...its not by mere chance that they win,it is by dedication and sacrifice and hard work. So it is with us as Christians, we wrestle not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers who seek our demise, or only safe course is to surrender our lives to Christ and allow him to direct us into the Kingdom!!!

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-08 10:00:00 

It appears now that we have gone from those who do not believe the Bible, to those who do.

But there seems to be a glaring difference. Those who disagreed actually quoted scriptures, if only one or two. Am yet to see a cited scripture for thise who are posting doctrines.

So I ask, if those who do not believe can put so much effort in using the Bible, why are those who claim to believe not doing likewise?

Thus we can have a discussion from the scriptures and not our own understanding?

ACTS 8:

30 Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know* what you are reading?” 31 He said: “Really, how could I ever do so unless someone guided me?” So he urged Philip to get on and sit down with him.


Acts 17:
10 Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas to Be·roe′a. On arriving, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·ni′ca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. 12 Therefore, many of them became believers, and so did quite a few of the reputable Greek women as well as some of the men.

 
black 2017-01-08 11:37:10 

In reply to Ayenmol

Do words in the Quran match those of the Bible?

Why do I ask? Isn't it all God's words?

 
black 2017-01-08 11:42:59 

In reply to Ayenmol

Don't both of these religions claim to be the only true religion?

Who do I believe?

 
np 2017-01-08 14:04:56 

In reply to Avatar

Let me alert you to my facts of life. I'm not afraid to die. It's an inevitable fact, and neither have I sinned. Don't know what a sin in biblical terms is and don't care.
When I depart my dead body will be lying on a slab for the advancement of scientific research. End of story -- that will be my "proverbial heaven and hell ".

Beyond that I'm not aware of any hell or heaven above or below.. I do not have time for mysticism.

 
black 2017-01-08 14:29:01 

In reply to np

Well said.

Anything else is just wishful thinking.

Don't you have faith? lol

 
cricketmygame 2017-01-08 14:44:16 

In reply to black


Don't both of these religions claim to be the only true religion?

Who do I believe?


according to Muslims Judaism was the true religion until Jesus came and preach the Gospel and then Christianity was the one true religion until the Prophet Mohammad pbu received revelation

Muslims believe Jesus will return at the end of times

 
black 2017-01-08 15:08:54 

In reply to cricketmygame

Muslims believe Jesus will return at the end of times


Muslims do believe that Jesus exist but they don't place the same importance in him as Prophet Mohammed.

In other words, he is just ordinary, compared to Mohammed.

 
cricketmygame 2017-01-08 16:42:14 

In reply to black


They believe in his birth from a Virginia mother

They just don't belive that Jesus is God. He was sent by God just like Mohammed pbu, Abraham and Moses etc were sent by God. Muslims also belive that Jesus ascended to heaven before the crucifixion and was replaced by someone else on the cross.

Mohammed is also a man sent by God.

 
Avatar 2017-01-08 17:39:39 

In reply to np

Wow thats such a sad outlook on life... So what is the meaning of life if all you do is live for 70 sorrow filled years and then die?
No my friend, there is hope beyond the grave, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved.

Oh taste and see that the Lord is Good, Wont you give Him a try? what do you have to lose?
I can assure you ...once you taste of His living water you will never be the same again!!!

 
pelon 2017-01-08 17:49:33 

In reply to Avatar

Man you speak like a used car salesman trying to reach his quota.

"Oh taste and see that the Lord is Good"
Rass - so good you can TASTE it??? No sir - me not tasting anything....

 
bravos 2017-01-08 18:04:22 

Who created God btw? his mommy and daddy? And how convenient and familiar that a father and son runs the kingdom or family business which tantamount to a celestial North Korea.

Why is a species that clawed it's way out of the stone age and died of their teeth in their 20's and a chromosome away from chimps so important to god,how come the geopolitical squabbles of such mammals are of such importance that god favors one over the other? Isreal really? Does anyone feel good about saying some prayers that mention a barren wasteland Isreal with no mention of our lush and beautiful lands?

Why does god continue to make our lives miserable? Why do over 8 million kids below the age of 5 die each year for need of basic necessities,wickedness and disasters? Their parents pray everyday,how can anyone witness all this and claim that their god is blessing them because they got the right job or some other material or self empowering self centred accomplishment,have you no heart for these unfortunate praying people,why does god favor you? Is this the best god can do really? What a mess,a very familiar mess .

If you find a dollar god blessed you,if you lose 100 dollars god testing you and works in mysterious ways,if you win the lotto god bless you,if your kid did well because they did their work god blessing you,pleh..

If horses and cows had arms and hands to draw their gods they would draw them in their likeness,why do Indian gods look like Indians,Chinese gods look like Chinese,Middle Eastern gods look like Middle Eastern people,Inca gods look like Incas,Mayan Gods loom like Mayans?

Why are we happy to say we were born in sin,I certainly was born in love,only a twisted and brainwashed human being can watch a perfectly healthy baby with drool as fresh and crisp as spring water and say that beautiful being before them is of sin, how sick can these people be? I certainly claim no part of that franchise,I have long relieved myself of such burdens for I was conceived and born of love.

Why does god need to be praised and praised and praised,is he that insecure and superficial,and of the billions of universes and trillions of planets in this almost endless universe why us? We share similar or even graver challenges than other species of this planet, we are not favored,we slowly adjusted and slowly became equipped to be dominant over other species,others had their times,now is ours,but in reality in a flash it can all be over with a good solar flare or space fart..

Personally my first experience with murder and bloodshed being an option was at Sunday school,had we been brought up on the teachings of a Socrates ,Galaleo,Confuscious how advanced we would've been as a species,how unfortunate that kids are labelled and segregated because of some man made philosophy?

Why the hate of the female and their menstrual cycle,why the hate of our sexual reproductive system and instincts? Why the primal and barbaric view points? If you want to see the conditions which the bible and other so called holy books promote and thrive upon,just look at the middle east today,look at Bosnia,Northern Ireland of yesterday,look at the wickedness of the crusades the bloodshed,the only time such wickedness is viewed as necessary and right in the name of some hapless man made deity.

I certainly hate the idea of eternally praising and being at the side of some supreme leader,and if your god believes that I should burn eternally for not believing with lack of evidence and only claims by man then why did he equip me with such faculties,why the constant twisted and mischievous games? Why the equip us with equipment that cannot realistically keep up with far fetched and unnatural requirements and recommendations?

How come the lady was killed after church,why was the pastor killed in church,why was the church bombed,why are praying people raped,plundered and murdered? Would god ever sand up and say "enough is enough" !?? Is he impotent,is he wicked,does he care?

The bible and other so called holy books are just convenient plagiarized versions of older myths and both the koran and the bible are simply fraudulent validations of each other,Isreal my ass even as a child it never made sense to me,it is not right,tell me about the Americas,tell me something about that in gods plans,tell me how according to your teachings the vast majority of good people are going to burn eternally for not getting the memo because of inefficient distribution.

No mammal,reptile,insect,fish or any other earth creature but a deluded or sick one can look at me and tell me they know something about god that I do not.

When I look around all I see is failure,death,destruction,mayhem and wickedness,is this the best your god can do? I say vote him out..I say please keep your stupid beliefs to yourselves and your holy books in the fiction aisle...

May your vindictive and jealous god strike me down with his teachings of human sacrifice..

 
np 2017-01-08 18:06:27 

In reply to black

I have lots of faith . In me!!!! cool cool

 
np 2017-01-08 18:13:03 

In reply to Avatar

My outlook on life - contrary to your SAD belief is highly positive any minute of any day. I'd love to live to 700 but I'll take whatever is the end point.
I do not need a God or you to help me.
I've determined my path since i was 15/16 and gave up on the church and all that goes with it ....
it's all a bunch of bullshit .... so your view means ZERO to me at this point in MY life.

 
bravos 2017-01-08 18:14:09 

Is it moral?

 
birdseye 2017-01-08 18:16:41 

In reply to bravos

Are you a descendant of Ham? wink wink

 
bravos 2017-01-08 18:21:51 

In reply to birdseye

I'm a Pastafarian,all hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster,I hereby offer up some burnt garlic..

 
bravos 2017-01-08 18:27:29 

What if your'e wrong?

 
bravos 2017-01-08 18:29:31 

If you want to be awe inspired..loool!!

 
birdseye 2017-01-08 18:59:52 

In reply to bravos

I don’t usually cook but when I do – my favorite meal to make – pasta with white clam sauce with garlic and herbs and some warm garlic bread --- its easy, quick, and the tastes is fantastic.

 
pelon 2017-01-08 19:00:45 

Faith is a very positive tool. yet...
Faith has the potential to be disharmonious and conflicting...
Faith is a personal suspension of ALL other options (past/present/future).
Faith comforts, strengthens communities.Faith binds persons to others of like mindedness. yet...
Faith is the cause of more wars/death/mayhem than all dictators combined.
Faith can positively shape entire societies. yet
Faith can exclude your neighbour.

For each of the above you have an antonym.


Bible examination: Can you question that which you were told not to question?

Simple questions: Did the Ark have a pair of Dinosaurs and other massive creatures like the woolly mammoth on it?

Where Faith collapses, is explanation of scientific facts: Noah DID and could not Not have dinosaurs on his Ark, yet we now know they roamed the earth millions of years before the Ark. Confoundingly, this means that the Ark narrative fails as FACT but does not fail as a positive fable.

Ark Dimensions: The failure point.

The bible said the dimensions of the Ark are: 300 cubits in length, 50 cubits in width and 30 cubits in height (450 × 75 × 45 ft or 137 × 22.9 × 13.7 m).
1 cubit = 18 inches aprox.

Really? you gonna suspend your mind and accept that - just saying "the pastor said so, it must be true".... that is EVIL!!!!!

Be of faith, but don't take the literature and fables as literal!

 
black 2017-01-08 19:17:04 

In reply to pelon

Simple questions: Did the Ark have a pair of Dinosaurs and other massive creatures like the woolly mammoth on it?

Where Faith collapses, is explanation of scientific facts: Noah DID and could not Not have dinosaurs on his Ark, yet we now know they roamed the earth millions of years before the Ark. Confoundingly, this means that the Ark narrative fails as FACT but does not fail as a positive fable.


Omission by ignorance. They probably saw ah big dinosaur leg bone and thought it was an odd shape rock. lol

 
birdseye 2017-01-08 19:19:55 

In reply to bravos

deleted

 
bravos 2017-01-08 19:26:23 

In reply to pelon

I have gotten faith from other art-form and occurrences that does not incite genocide,infanticide,homicide,human sacrifice and bloodshed.. Can you tell me of a more bloody fictional story or non-fictional real event that has more bloodshed than the teachings of the bible?

WW1? Nope!

WW2 and Hitler? Nope!!

Idi Amin's Uganda? Nope!!

Polpot's Cambodia? Nope!!

'300'? Nope!!

'Silence of the Lambs' Nope!!

'Roots'? Nope!!

Why do we continue to carry this archaic and retrogressive story as the answer to all our questions,can you imagine a world that takes the bible literally? Would you wan to be part of such a world?

Why do they conveniently ignore manipulate and cherry-pick parts of the bible to custom fit to a situation? I'm certain I can twist parts of many storybooks to make them relevant to human life and challenges..

Man created gods and that's that..

The most peaceful countries on Earth today are the ones that have long relegated religion to art and human culture..and the world by extension has subconsciously done the same.

Merry Christmas!!


Happy Easter!!

Personally I love what they have done with them,it's time these blind sheep wake up and start living before they die having lived a total lie,now that is really an unfortunate thing,really sad for people like Ayenomal...really pity such people..

 
bravos 2017-01-08 19:26:55 

In reply to birdseye

Check your link..

 
Norm 2017-01-08 19:42:54 

In reply to bravos

Why do we continue to carry this archaic and retrogressive story as the answer to all our questions

Because we need to. It is either the old stories or new ones that are generally far worse.

Each organised effort to remove the existing "religion" always results in a new religion. Communism is a good example, where the party and its leaders become the new pantheon of gods and absolute authority, even demanding worship, on the pain of death.

Modern democracies too are hardly different, with social stratification, ethnic injustice, etc, accompanied by an elite who really run the show.

That is why we keep returning to those "archaic and retrogressive stories" - because we have not been able to find something better.

 
bravos 2017-01-08 19:46:27 

In reply to Norm

Poor you,sorry you couldn't adapt,had the world stuck to that we would've been already extinct from something as 'simple' as the flu or polio..Speak for yourself I do not need that twisted obsolete wicked useless garbage, maybe you do.

Ok pal nice talking,good luck...bye..



Birdseye check your link I ain't gettin tru...

 
Runs 2017-01-08 19:46:29 

In reply to cricketmygame

cool

 
Norm 2017-01-08 20:00:56 

In reply to black

I see the discussion is still going on, with hardly a pretense of objectivity - two sides thrashing each other endlessly, like drunks arguing about cricket.

Why wasn't the topic called "Let's Piss On Religion"? That seems to be the true objective. Have you ever lived in a religious vacuum, such as a communist country? You probably should try living in North Korea, where you can get paid for pissing publicly on established region.

Religions may not pass the "scientific method" test, but the stable moral structure they create plays a huge part in mankind's politics and the resulting progress. The lack of it (that stable moral structure) has severe consequences - such as widespread public lying (no moral restraint - remember the days when the Soviet Union always claimed it produced more that the US?), arbitrary executions (no moral standards), etc.

So, go ahead and try to bring down chaotically the pillars that have sustained us for centuries, because it is has perceived flaws. I am sure you will love what you end up with!

 
birdseye 2017-01-08 20:01:11 

In reply to bravos
thanks - here
this video is crushing

 
black 2017-01-08 20:07:21 

In reply to Norm

I was hoping the it would be a good back and forth but it looks like Bravos has had enough. lol

 
bravos 2017-01-08 20:09:49 

In reply to birdseye

That woman is a boss,I love her!!Know her well!! cool

 
Norm 2017-01-08 20:18:49 

In reply to black

but it looks like Bravos has had enough.

Man, stop tantalizing! smile

 
birdseye 2017-01-08 20:25:07 

In reply to bravos

To quote James Baldwin from his book ‘THE FIRE NEXT TIME’ --- If the concept of God has any validity or any use, it can only be to make us larger, freer, and more loving. If God cannot do this, then it is time to get rid of Him-----

And I say BRAVO! --- To Mr. Baldwin

pun intended

big grin

 
bravos 2017-01-08 20:36:32 

In reply to birdseye

My gods are righteousness,nature,real success and progress for all humanity,and the first step to progress is to get rid of the blood fetishes and actually love and respect the flesh,such is the fraud that they have convinced us that this our real life and experiences are expendable and useless and that's why it was so easy to burn whole villages of parents and children on the pile for not believing in their made up dastardly and diabolical tales.

Love and respect the flesh,it's the only way we can progress!!! it's all we are..they trying to take away our fundamental humanity by making our flesh seem polluted and infected and thus disposable,we are all flesh. cool

 
pelon 2017-01-08 20:41:23 

In reply to Norm

The lack of it (that stable moral structure) has severe consequences - such as widespread public lying has severe consequences
Is their any greater lie than the biblical account of mankind (ark, Jonah in a large fish, Noah and children repopulating earth etc)? If we accept something via "faith" is it factual?

Norm: you strike me as rational - so if I had to ask you 1 question: Did you first get INTRODUCED to religion as an adult or was it something you were exposed to from birth, what would your answer be?

From birth. (especially if born in the islands)

Therefore, it is NEAR impossible to challenge something you have be indoctrinated in - from birth.

The effort here is not to piss on religion (at least not by me)... see it as liberation. Freedom to explore without fear of prosecution. You are in a box, albeit a beautiful and comforting one for you, but yet a box. CLOSED. No further discovery.

How beautiful it would be to co-exist with the BEST of the bible (in values) + the open mindedness of free inquiry!!!! The only danger comes when we hold the bible (or ANY religious dogma) AGAINST others that don't share your views....

respect always.

 
np 2017-01-08 20:53:40 

In reply to pelon

Respectfully put my brother ... each one teach one, and leave the real learning to that individual ....
And respect his/her single determination of purpose.

 
Norm 2017-01-08 21:23:26 

In reply to pelon

Is their any greater lie than the biblical account of mankind? If we accept something via "faith" is it factual?

How factual was the Rutherford atomic model that had to be revised by Bohr, etc, upon which all science was based on in its day? Or Newton's Laws of motion that were revised by Einstein? Are these revisions now "factual" for sure?

Yet we accept "science" with the same fervor as some accept religion.

The Bible (or any other established religious doctrine) is not "an account of mankind" (you apparently haven't read it).

It started out as a history of the Hebrews, who believe God would make the Earth become an Eden-like paradise again, with the Hebrews (Adam's children) running things in grand style - IF the Hebrews kept their end of the agreement between Abraham and God. Moses decided to keep a written history to remind the Hebrews that they were not keeping that agreement (i.e. they were "falling short", or "sinning".)

Is the Bible an accurate history of the Hebrews from Moses's time to Jesus? Nothing in it in this respect has ever been proven incorrect.

The Book of Genesis, however, is a different matter, especially about the period preceding the Flood. Moses apparently put together the pre-Flood period from at least 3 different sources. It should be noted that Moses was an educated Egyptian prince, with access to all of Egypt's knowledge at that time.

The period between the Flood and Moses in the second half of Genesis, which includes the Abraham episode, seems perfectly accurate from a historical perspective too (nothing in the Bible narrative has been found to contradict archaeological evidence).

No archaeological or written evidence contradicts the Bible accounts about Jesus and his followers either.

So, let's not state that the Bible is a "lie about mankind". That is simply not true - not even about the Hebrews themselves or the people they interacted with.

It should be noted that parts of the Bible, such as its very beginning (the pre-Flood period in Genesis) and its ending (the Book of Revelation) have been major sources of religious and historical controversy. "Piss" on these as much as you want, but the rest of it has passed historical and scientific (archaeological) muster time and again.

Again, the Bible is a very important factor in the present state of humanity. You cannot truly start to understand the human world without understanding it. The same goes for the books of the other established religions too.

Do we need to thump our Bibles and call down hell fire on those who disagree with us? Now, that deserves to be pissed on, especially after lots of good beer!

 
bravos 2017-01-08 21:31:04 

In reply to Norm

Again, the Bible is a very important factor in the present state of humanity. You cannot truly start to understand the human world without understanding it. The same goes for the books of the other established religions too.


Thank god I have a better understanding about your human mom,wife or daughter than the bible.

19 “Whenever a woman has her menstrual period, she will be ceremonially unclean for seven days. Anyone who touches her during that time will be unclean until evening.

20 Anything on which the woman lies or sits during the time of her period will be unclean.

21 If any of you touch her bed, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening.

22 If you touch any object she has sat on, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening.

23 This includes her bed or any other object she has sat on; you will be unclean until evening if you touch it.

24 If a man has sexual intercourse with her and her blood touches him, her menstrual impurity will be transmitted to him. He will remain unclean for seven days, and any bed on which he lies will be unclean.

25 “If a woman has a flow of blood for many days that is unrelated to her menstrual period, or if the blood continues beyond the normal period, she is ceremonially unclean. As during her menstrual period, the woman will be unclean as long as the discharge continues.

26 Any bed she lies on and any object she sits on during that time will be unclean, just as during her normal menstrual period.

27 If any of you touch these things, you will be ceremonially unclean. You must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening.

28 “When the woman’s bleeding stops, she must count off seven days. Then she will be ceremonially clean.

29 On the eighth day she must bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons and present them to the priest at the entrance of the Tabernacle.

30 The priest will offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. Through this process, the priest will purify her before the LORD for the ceremonial impurity caused by her bleeding.

31 “This is how you will guard the people of Israel from ceremonial uncleanness. Otherwise they would die, for their impurity would defile my Tabernacle that stands among them.

32 These are the instructions for dealing with anyone who has a bodily discharge—a man who is unclean because of an emission of semen 33 or a woman during her menstrual period. It applies to any man or woman who has a bodily discharge, and to a man who has sexual intercourse with a woman who is ceremonially unclean.”


Sick ignorant f@cks,what disgusting filth! In my understanding of the human world we assist,soothe ,show more affection and compassion for our lovely females in that 'condition' which is a necessary component and selfless sacrifice in the mechanics of the fundamental survival of our species and they should be looked upon and held in the most dignified manner during such PERIODS and not vilified and defiled for the ignorance of illiterate barbarians who just saw oozing dirty bloody effluent soiling more valuable possessions such as fabrics and cloths ,that's not understanding that's patent and blatant ignorance,and so is your advice,it's shameful that a big man cannot bring himself to see how wrong this is,I'm sorry for you and your charges.

 
XFactor 2017-01-08 21:36:01 

In reply to blackOk,

I have sinned but what are my sins? I might have indulged on a little pleasure before marriage, during marriage and a few other minor infractions but I have not killed anyone, I am not a thief or drug dealer or a scammer, what is the punishment for those infractions, death?

You seem to want to put levels on sin – some as acceptable and others as deplorable. There is no rationalization to the degree of sin.

The sins of Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Timothy Mcveigh and suicide bombers are no more dreadful to God than mine.

God sees all sin as wrong.


And, what about babies dying? What sins have they committed?

I don’t have the wisdom of God to give a complete answer to that question. We have all experienced suffering. Some that will be reading this may have suffered immensely, and I don’t want arrogance to be a part of this discussion. This is always a difficult subject.

All people, including children, are born into sin - “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Suffering is inevitable.

Let us consider poverty, which affects millions of all children on earth. The lack of basic necessities, food, water and shelter sanitation brings death and untold suffering to these children.

I’m sure it grieves you to see children suffering and you, a man of substance, has done what you can to aid in this suffering. There is enough food and resources in the world for these children to be taken care of, but gluttony and the sinful nature of those that can help turns a blind eye and says it’s not his problem but God’s.

There are many levels to which suffering occurs. Children sometimes suffer for their parents’ actions – alcoholic parents can do horrible things to kids, drug users produce addicts-“crack babies”. Children are the victims of war and terrorism. These things happen because of the sinful nature of man – Not God!!

On the bright side, a day will come when suffering will end and God will judge evil.

 
Norm 2017-01-08 21:47:02 

In reply to pelon

Therefore, it is NEAR impossible to challenge something you have be indoctrinated in - from birth.

Isn't that exactly what most of us, you included, are doing here? Isn't that one of the freedoms of most of the world that allows freedom of religion?

It should be noted that is is the very countries that have (supposedly) banned religion are the same ones that also restrict other freedoms. So again, remove religion from society and see what remains. The evidence is there for us to see, but we choose to conveniently ignore it - because it is "scientific" to piss on religion, mythology, our own cultural traditions, etc, or anything else that has not been blessed by the establishment.

Anyone who respects science and freedom will leave people to their religions, and the books that go with them.

I was indeed born into a religion and I am thankful for that. It at least made me aware of something very important in all our lives and to its lack of perfection. THAT leads to investigation.

 
pelon 2017-01-08 21:53:37 

In reply to Norm

How factual was the Rutherford atomic model that had to be revised by Bohr, etc, upon which all science is based on in its day? Or Newton's Laws of motion that were revised by Einstein? Are these revisions now "factual" for sure?


Their can be no more of a godly thing than to be evaluated against evidence - and to be corrected after peer evaluation - towards a greater understanding.

That is what religious dogma does not allow. [fail!]

If Newton is wrong, it is always superseded by greater knowledge. NOT LESS. Not reverting to biblical explanation....
One day thanks to I.Newton - then A. Einstein - then S. Hawkings - then ____ (child yet born) we will get closer and closer to a robust explanation of things we yet have not solved.

If you feel comfortable knowing women came from the "rib of Adam", or that dinosaurs were on the 'ark', or Jonah spending his time in the mouth of a fish.... if these mystic fables support your understanding ----- then I respect you, but differ in "blind, closed book acceptance"

We can co-exist respectfully.

Side Note: some of the most wicked men I know are regulars in the church.

 
Norm 2017-01-08 21:57:21 

In reply to bravos

In my understanding of the human world

That understanding requires as much information as possible. The Bible is one of many sources of such information. Ignoring it makes no sense.

Considering it to be the ultimate authority on our decisions, however, is a different matter (my opinion). If others choose to, I won't "cuss them out". The truth is, the vast majority of us would prefer to be in dark alley late at night with a religious person that with someone "cussing" religion.

 
bravos 2017-01-08 21:57:40 

In reply to XFactor

I don’t have the wisdom of God to give a complete answer to that question. We have all experienced suffering. Some that will be reading this may have suffered immensely, and I don’t want arrogance to be a part of this discussion. This is always a difficult subject.



god doesn't even have it... You good people always love to cry arrogance with the slightest logical challenge or question,everyday you live and benefit from the doings of people who have long relegated your god story to mythology,you live your comfortable life thanks to the the fact that others have made the step you refuse to,the hypocrisy and irony is insane,but to each his own. cool

 
XFactor 2017-01-08 21:59:53 

In reply to bravos

Thank god I have a better understanding about your human mom,wife or daughter than the bible.

LOL – ignorance is bliss……

These were ceremonial rules given to Israel. Men were also given ceremonial rules about cleanliness.

Leviticus 15
1 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 2 “Give the following instructions to the people of Israel. “Any man who has a bodily discharge is ceremonially unclean. 3 This defilement is caused by his discharge, whether the discharge continues or stops. In either case the man is unclean. 4 Any bed on which the man with the discharge lies and anything on which he sits will be ceremonially unclean. 5 So if you touch the man’s bed, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. 6 If you sit where the man with the discharge has sat, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. 7 If you touch the man with the discharge, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. 8 If the man spits on you, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. 9 Any saddle blanket on which the man rides will be ceremonially unclean. 10 If you touch anything that was under the man, you will be unclean until evening. You must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. 11 If the man touches you without first rinsing his hands, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. 12 Any clay pot the man touches must be broken, and any wooden utensil he touches must be rinsed with water.

 
XFactor 2017-01-08 22:03:20 

In reply to bravos

When you have something intelligent to say we'll talk.......

 
Norm 2017-01-08 22:07:52 

In reply to pelon

some of the most wicked men I know are regulars in the church.

And from that, the "scientific conclusion" is that the Bible is a big lie about humanity. Very convenient!

Should we also conclude (scientifically) that those who are not regulars in church are not wicked? That believers in science are morally upright and do not lie, or are not wicked?

If "science" is based on the fair comparison of information to try to determine "facts", how is it "scientific" to opine that one of the most important information sources be ruled out to begin with?

 
pelon 2017-01-08 22:15:02 

When you have something intelligent to say we'll talk.......

Is there any irony that the only people XFactor will call "intelligent" are those faith based believers. (no bias there)

 
bravos 2017-01-08 22:16:42 

In reply to XFactor

God bless you..

 
XFactor 2017-01-08 22:20:49 

In reply to pelon

It is integrating that you have found wisdom in Bravos’ posts. (no bias there either)

lol

 
black 2017-01-08 22:21:47 

In reply to XFactor

Leviticus 15
1 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 2 “Give the following instructions to the people of Israel. “Any man who has a bodily discharge is ceremonially unclean. 3 This defilement is caused by his discharge, whether the discharge continues or stops. In either case the man is unclean. 4 Any bed on which the man with the discharge lies and anything on which he sits will be ceremonially unclean. 5 So if you touch the man’s bed, you must wash your clothes and bathe yourself in water, and you will remain unclean until evening. 6


This in itself is ignorance, isn't it? This only sets someone up to be scorned. Modern medicine diagnose and treat illnesses, they don't make light of it without some sort of action to heal it.

 
pelon 2017-01-08 22:24:06 

In reply to Norm

I NEVER made that correlative. YOU just did. Don't be disingenuous now.

I never once said, intimated or suggested "That believers in science are morally upright and do not lie, or are not wicked? " - why bring skunt talk into it?

What you are doing now is disrespectful, obfuscation and quite frankly, your departure from civil discourse on an otherwise interesting back and forth.

And when was "one of the most important information sources be ruled out"??? What information was ruled out???
That God created earth in 7 days? That Adam lost a rib to create a female?
Aztecs, Asians, Zulus etc .... all descended from Noah, his wife and 6 others??? (that is mathematically impossible)

Really: That's your EXCLUSIVE seat of wisdom???

 
XFactor 2017-01-08 22:28:50 

In reply to black

Whatever dude………Come back with something a little more substantive nuh.

 
bravos 2017-01-08 22:34:59 

In reply to black

This in itself is ignorance, isn't it? This only sets someone up to be scorned. Modern medicine diagnose and treat illnesses, they don't make light of it without some sort of action to heal it


But wait,there's more!!

Leviticus 21

16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God.

18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.

21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God.

22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.


Sad..

 
Norm 2017-01-08 22:35:02 

In reply to pelon

That is what religious dogma does not allow. [fail!]

Ironically, this has similarities to black's first question in the thread, about the apparent contradiction of "an eye for an eye (from Moses, in Exodus)" with "turn the other cheek (from Jesus)".

Jesus was effectively revising the old laws, because (according to Jesus himself) Moses laid them down for the Hebrews in a time when their "hearts were hard". (In their defense, the Hebrews had just experienced several hundred years of harsh slavery under the Egyptians. So, it was possible to understand why their hearts were "hard" at that time.)

(These actions were deemed as blasphemy on Jesus's part, by the Hebrew priests, during Jesus's trial by the Romans.)

Even before Jesus, God allowed men to start eating meat after the Flood (apparently because food was scarce), which was not allowed before the Flood.

There are many instances in the Bible narrative where changes in "laws" were made. So the Bible narrative itself does not support dogma and absolutism. This contradicts the approach of many believers, but how would someone know that without studying the Bible?

If you want to criticize something credibly and scientifically, know your subject, at least.

 
bravos 2017-01-08 22:38:31 

In reply to Norm

Even before Jesus, God allowed men to start eating meat after the Flood (apparently because food was scarce), which was not allowed before the Flood.


But but didn't these men die in the flood? Huh? And how can they eat meat if only 2 of every animal survived anyway..is that how dinosaurs went extinct,and who were these men btw,Noah must have had some serious magic discharge.. confused

Did the flood kill the fish too?? redface

 
XFactor 2017-01-08 22:40:55 

In reply to bravos

Good on you to have looked it up, and you learned something new today.


Glad we have ended this on a positive note. This is my last post here for the next many months......And blessings to you as well Bravos.

 
pelon 2017-01-08 22:42:20 

In reply to Norm

So the Bible narrative itself does not support dogma and absolutism.
Interesting
If you want to criticize something credibly and scientifically, know your subject, at least.


good night bro and in parting: it is easier for a fool to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is closed-minded to enter the kingdom of knowledge.


lol lol lol lol

 
bravos 2017-01-08 22:43:02 

In reply to XFactor

This is my last post here for the next many months


Well then my work is done.

NEEEXT!!!! cool


Ohhhhhm....

 
np 2017-01-08 22:45:23 

In reply to XFactor

I do hope you are not dropping off your engagement in the Backroom because of dissonance on matters religious. Such dissonance is expected in intelligent society. We are not all built from the same cloth!!!! Expect agreement and revolt ...
cool

 
XFactor 2017-01-08 22:46:55 

In reply to bravos

my work is done


Not quite.... Do what you do best. I'm sure you have new pics to post...

Caveman is looking for special ones. lol

 
XFactor 2017-01-08 22:48:34 

In reply to np

NP, not at all, I'll be back in a few months. Distant lands are calling.....

 
black 2017-01-08 22:50:45 

In reply to bravos

Leviticus 21

16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God.

18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.

21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God.

22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.


This stuff reeks of ignorance.

 
np 2017-01-08 22:55:02 

In reply to XFactor

Cool --- safe travels ... and be mindful of false gods ... and saviors!!

And certainly watch out for any serpentine Eves!!!

 
bravos 2017-01-08 22:58:33 

In reply to XFactor

All the best Facter! smile cool

 
XFactor 2017-01-08 22:59:10 

In reply to np

Thanks NP. Your wit always brings me a smile.

big grin

 
pelon 2017-01-08 23:00:10 

In reply to np

lol lol lol lol lol

 
black 2017-01-08 23:05:14 

In reply to np

lol lol lol

This thread is turning out to be one of the funniest.

 
Norm 2017-01-08 23:06:22 

In reply to pelon

Aztecs, Asians, Zulus etc .... all descended from Noah, his wife and 6 others??? (that is mathematically impossible)

Very unlikely, but not impossible mathematically. A similar hypothesis exists (and is widely believed) about the pre-Columbus Americas being populated by a dozen people or so, crossing the Bering Strait about 15 thousand years ago.

Huge floods have occurred everywhere in the world, but there is no evidence to support a flood of the entire world in the year 3250 BC, which is when the flood referred to in the Bible occurred. There is evidence of significant flooding in Mesopotamia at that time, but it was essentially local.

As I said before, there are serious issues with the Book of Genesis, up to the end of the Flood. To state that the entire Bible is a "lie about mankind", however, is no more logical that throwing out all of science because our basic assumptions are flawed - always.

Personally, I think our current populations descended from several sources (yes, I think the Bible is wrong in places, and I am not "religious") , but it is not entirely impossible for humans to have been subjected genetic engineering in the past (as could be suggested by the Eve from Adam's rib narrative).

The Flood story, however, discusses events that may have occurred over 5 thousand years ago. Is it surprising that there could be errors in it? Some of the corroborating evidence from non-Bible sources suggests that at least some of the Flood information in the Bible is correct.

About the veracity of Bible narratives, do we apply the same accuracy standards to our own region - about much more recent issues? For example, we were told by the British that the Caribs were cannibals (before Europeans arrived to enlighten them, of course!), but is there any evidence of that? And, do we believe it?

 
bravos 2017-01-08 23:14:54 

In reply to Norm

You seem to be a really nice chap,your'e better than all that bro..your'e nothing like those people in the book,and to see your true potential as an individual you must release those shackles and blinders...

all the best...

 
pelon 2017-01-08 23:17:31 

In reply to Norm

As I said before, there are serious issues with the Book of Genesis
Do you know what happened when Newtonian physics was found to have flaws??? They went back to the drawing board....not hold it as gospel.
So when science fails, we discard and investigate, query, postulate... seek evidence... robust robust robust... repeat cycle.

When by YOUR OWN admission, they are SERIOUS issues in the Book of Genesis.... WHat? you still accept the fables via faith.

yes, I think the Bible is wrong in places, and I am not "religious"
you sure?? smile

 
bravos 2017-01-08 23:19:47 

In reply to Norm

The Flood story, however, discusses events that may have occurred over 5 thousand years ago. Is it surprising that there could be errors in it? Some of the corroborating evidence from non-Bible sources suggests that at least some of the Flood information in the Bible is correct.


Nope..

 
Norm 2017-01-08 23:22:53 

In reply to bravos

Did the flood kill the fish too??

Lots of problems with the narrative here, alright. If I remember correctly, Noah and company finally concluded the storm was over because they spotted a bird (that was not from the Ark) with a twig in its mouth.

Anyway, my point was to show the Bible itself talks about revisions of "laws", and therefore does not support absolutism or dogma.

Parts of the Bible are wrong? I agree! Therefore, ALL of it is wrong? Obviously not.

Nevertheless, the point implied by "naysayers" that the Bible (and other religious books) have been used as tools of mass deception does not depend on proving that the actual content is historically inaccurate.

Even if the Bible were completely accurate it could have still been (and is) used for mass deception by those so inclined - just as TV news stations, Facebook, etc, do today.

 
black 2017-01-08 23:29:56 

In reply to Norm

Your example of change was not a good one, if the animals died in the flood, isn't it logical that there would be shortages on meats, thus a cut back on consumption?

 
Norm 2017-01-08 23:41:29 

In reply to bravos
The Epic of Gilgamesh, religious documents from India, etc, have strong similarities to the Bible narrative. Aspects of Indian religion also support the "preserving role" of Noah.

Did Mr Dawkins assert that these were fabrications too?

Even less credible events in Genesis, such the angels having offspring with humans, have parallels in other cultures. This does not make them "true" but it indicates that there is some substance in these stories.

With time we may find out what is really true about even these fantastic tales, as archaeologists keep finding out time and again about the Bible narrative.

Even "mythology" sometimes provides important information about true events, as the Illiad did with regard to finding the location of Troy almost 3 thousand years later.

In the end, why the fuss over the Bible? Even if every word in it were historically accurate, a free society would still allow its citizens to choose how to use it - as we could.

 
bravos 2017-01-08 23:47:08 

In reply to black

Your example of change was not a good one, if the animals died in the flood, isn't it logical that there would be shortages on meats, thus a cut back on consumption?


But sir you gone even too far,all the people died too!! No consumption,only Noah and his family survived.

 
Norm 2017-01-08 23:47:52 

In reply to black

Your example of change was not a good one

The example was intended to show only that "policy" changes occurred. This contradicts the dogmatists and those who love to claim that the Bible is perfect, flawless, etc.

Nevertheless, allowing the consumption of meat would have increased food sources, changed farming and economic practices, etc, and in general would have had a profound effect on society. Hence, reference to this shows that the writer understood how important a decision that would have been at that time.

 
bravos 2017-01-08 23:48:40 

In reply to Norm

Don't believe a word of it,why use a badly written and conceptualized story book as the answer to everything?

 
black 2017-01-08 23:52:29 

In reply to bravos

But sir you gone even too far,all the people died too!! No


Yuh on fire tonight. lol

 
Norm 2017-01-08 23:55:54 

In reply to bravos

You seem to be a really nice chap

Thanks, bro. I enjoy your input in discussions here too. Pelon also makes valuable contributions to discussions.

It is only natural for us to get annoyed at each sometimes, so I don't take it personal. I have absolutely no problems with someone disagreeing with me. This is a place to discuss. So, let's discuss!

 
np 2017-01-09 00:13:41 

In reply to Norm

Way to go Norm ... healthy outlook!!! Cheers!!!!

 
Norm 2017-01-09 00:16:11 

In reply to pelon

Does a good knowledge of the Bible make me "religious", or am I simply practicing sound science? By the same token, would a good knowledge of Australian cricket make me Australian, or even an Australian supporter?

 
Norm 2017-01-09 00:17:48 

In reply to np

Way to go Norm ... healthy outlook!!! Cheers!!!!

Thanks.

You still around? I live in California, so I tend to get online and stay around later than most.

 
nick2020 2017-01-09 08:13:15 

In reply to bravos

What should someone believe in?

I know I am not alone here but

1. There are so many concepts in "science" that are hard to understand
2. Science is not infallible

So the clear solution is to believe in nothing. Or everything. Or whatever.

 
black 2017-01-09 08:45:13 

In reply to bravos


But wait,there's more!!

Leviticus 21

16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God.

18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.

21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God.

22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.


This piece of scripture clearly shows the depth of knowledge at the time, not some divine knowledge. If the Western World had allowed religion to dominate the conversation, we would be where the Arab World is today.

 
pelon 2017-01-09 09:57:37 

In reply to nick2020

What should someone believe in?
I know I am not alone here but
1. There are so many concepts in "science" that are hard to understand
2. Science is not infallible


1. Because something is hard to understand, does not negate it's validity.
2. Science does not, has not, will not present its self as being "infallible". Never. Not ever.
Science remains open to investigation - and change - in perpetuity. The bible ironically does not, THAT to me is a complex conundrum.[irony]

 
bravos 2017-01-09 12:37:28 

In reply to black

Yuh on fire tonight. lol


Lol and you know exactly how to draw me out!! I know I appeared late and you were probably expecting me on pg.1,but was busy with gas company perimeter job!!

 
bravos 2017-01-09 12:40:05 

In reply to Norm

Yeah I never take enthusiastic discourse personally,some people here do though,they won't engage or reply to you after certain talks sometimes from years ago lol,but that's ok..I love to learn and also teach! Look forward to our next discourse.

 
bravos 2017-01-09 13:01:01 

In reply to nick2020

What should someone believe in?

I know I am not alone here but

1. There are so many concepts in "science" that are hard to understand
2. Science is not infallible

So the clear solution is to believe in nothing. Or everything. Or whatever.


Nick c'mon man what kinda question is that,believe in you,believe in wholesome proven ideas,believe in what you see,whatever is responsible for our existence has equipped us to be objective,rational and progressive,had we really stuck to religious beliefs as the answer we wouldn't be having this discussion because we woulda been very backward as a species.

And Pelon answered the science part,even Newtonian Physics stood to be corrected and not grudgingly either,science is always open to correction and necessary adjustment,religion isn't,Nick it is only when you start to relieve yourself of those dark shackles you realize your real potential as a human being,no place for BC and AD thinking today..it is not natural carrying the burdens of Christianity and other religions,you are on a flawed platform when you see yourself as born unclean in sin and unworthy because some archaic racist violent chauvinistic pigs say so.

Open your eyes before it's too late,stop being a slave to crazy ideals with some icing on top,we are an innately empathic social species and our progress today is far cry from the dark recommendations of the bible.

 
pelon 2017-01-09 13:34:37 

In reply to bravos

..it is not natural carrying the burdens of Christianity and other religions,you are on a flawed platform when you see yourself as born unclean in sin and unworthy
So very well said.

 
black 2017-01-09 13:38:59 

In reply to bravos

Religion does not allow you to go outside of the script because the idea of change threatens the believability of the bible.

 
Kay 2017-01-09 14:06:56 

In reply to black

Look at the myriad of changes that are taking place in front of our own eyes over just the past 5 years and much to the betterment and simplicity of our lives.

These are mostly scientific and technological changes which have benefitted many sectors, especially medicine so much so that life expectancy has doubled over the past 100 years or so.

Why then must one continue to put so much stock in archaic rules, regulations and other life principles that remain static, outdated and would look and sound like gibberish to most millennials .....

Of course we will hear that all of this modernization were prophesized in the good old books and the almighty planned it exactly the way it is unfolding now.. smile

 
black 2017-01-09 14:09:46 

In reply to Kay

Of course we will hear that all of this modernization were prophesized in the good old books and the almighty planned it exactly the way it is unfolding now..


God gave us the ability to do it. lol

 
Runs 2017-01-09 14:11:40 

Link Text

Hollywood and religion cool

 
nick2020 2017-01-09 14:25:27 

In reply to pelon

1. Because something is hard to understand, does not negate it's validity.


I do no think we are on the same page.

How does a car engine work? If I explained fossil fuels, spark plugs, air, explosion, pistons, rods, chemical energy to mechanical energy, conservation laws there is going to be someone out there who does not understand but accepts it.

So pause and let us focus on that one person.

To that one person a car moves. He does not understand how but he knows it moves. He accepts there is science behind it but he does not understand it.

The Bible is that to some people.

In life you do not have to understand something to believe in it. And the point I am making to everyone is the everyone believes in something without the understanding.

To me it is really simple.

By the way yourself, bravo, black, snoop are yet to tackle the fact that the principle of conservation of matter is as impossible as the existence of God. Yet we all accept it.

 
nick2020 2017-01-09 14:26:26 

In reply to bravos

I think you are clearly misguided on my beliefs.

 
black 2017-01-09 14:38:11 

In reply to nick2020

Leviticus 21

16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God.

18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.

21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God.

22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.


I think we can all agree that this is nonsense.

 
Avatar 2017-01-09 15:02:04 

In reply to np

Sorry to hear that Brother,
You think you are happy, but happiness is only found in Jesus
I will pray for you that you will have an encounter with the Man Christ Jesus and that when you do, your life
will never be the same again!!!!!!

 
Drapsey 2017-01-09 15:05:08 

In reply to nick2020

To that one person a car moves. He does not understand how but he knows it moves. He accepts there is science behind it but he does not understand it.

A small comment on your car analogy...

That person can touch the car, hear the engine that he doesn't understand purr, sit in the car, take a drive or a ride.

On the other hand...

 
nick2020 2017-01-09 15:13:43 

In reply to Drapsey

That person can touch the car, hear the engine that he doesn't understand purr, sit in the car, take a drive or a ride.


Yes but that does not help that person to understand the how a car works part.

We can all see existence but no one understand how we came to be. I have said repeatedly that all we are trying to do in life is make sense of it. Some people choose religion. Some people choose science.

All anyone is doing is looking for answers really. And nothing really answers everything but it never stops the individual from believing.

I do know this - it is foolish to have 10 page threads going back on forth on the matter. Everyone is right yet no one is right. That is the paradox of life.

 
nick2020 2017-01-09 15:17:54 

In reply to black

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3 (KJV)


Does that make sense to you?

Without question that is circular logic.

 
black 2017-01-09 15:27:24 

In reply to nick2020

The silly parts of the bible, puts the whole bible into question.

 
np 2017-01-09 15:30:09 

In reply to Norm

When you responded I had already taken leave of CC.com for the night. I'm around and kicking ... can't make folks here like avatar rankle my old bones with issues on god ... I have my view, even if it is only my view -- no one can change that but me, and nothing has popped up on the horizo to engage any new gears!!

Stay healthy and informed and open my brother!! cool

 
np 2017-01-09 15:32:16 

In reply to pelon


1. Because something is hard to understand, does not negate it's validity.
2. Science does not, has not, will not present its self as being "infallible". Never. Not ever.
Science remains open to investigation - and change - in perpetuity. The bible ironically does not, THAT to me is a complex conundrum.[irony]


Yes sirree!!

 
black 2017-01-09 15:36:56 

In reply to nick2020

18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.


Don't you agree that medicine has shown a kinder side that the bible?

What if the doctors that put their lives on the line to fight ebola believed that stuff?

 
np 2017-01-09 15:40:04 

In reply to bravos

it is not natural carrying the burdens of Christianity and other religions,you are on a flawed platform when you see yourself as born unclean in sin and unworthy


Bravos ... yuh punching hard mi fren ....

I could not have said it as sweetly knowing my tongue!!!

 
np 2017-01-09 15:54:16 

In reply to Avatar

I will pray for you that you will have an encounter with the Man Christ Jesus and that when you do, your life
will never be the same again!!!!!!

First up ... save your prayers for some more deserving idiots, not I!!

That day wont come for me ... SORRY ... to disappoint you and him. I've been hearing that from my parents, grandparents, families etc etc since I was 15 and fired the church and all its trappings ... PLUUEEAASEE . .steewwwps!!

I am not in fear of death, and hence I live my life Upfully giving praises to mankind and the works of mankind and not any imaginabe, imaginary guy or girl or ghost (god, christ, mary the Unvirgin, the devil). I dont talk to them, beg anything of them nor dream about them. That would amount to a friggin waste of valuable time when I could be trying to discover more about the real world or having a good Guinness to quench my thirst.

 
bravos 2017-01-09 16:14:48 

In reply to np

Preach meh bredda preach!! Pity those fools who can't drink a couple Guinness and fire a shot or two from de ole gun!! Lol poor dem!!!

THE WORLD IS YOURS!!!!!!!!!

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-09 16:15:15 

In reply to np

I will pray for you that you will have an encounter with the Flying Spaghetti Monster and that when you do, your life
will never be the same again!!!!!!


lol lol lol

Let's put the spaghetti back into the holidays. lol

 
bravos 2017-01-09 16:18:08 

In reply to nick2020

I think you are clearly misguided on my beliefs.


I think there's a scientific name for your condition,or is it just denial? Lol...

Now don't get me wrong,if you don't believe in the bible but still looking for some other imaginary friend to believe in your work is still ahead of you.. cool

THE WORLD IS YOURS NICK!!! Take it!! I did a long time ago..

 
bravos 2017-01-09 16:19:22 

In reply to pelon

They bring out the best in me.. lol

 
bravos 2017-01-09 16:20:46 

In reply to black

Religion does not allow you to go outside of the script because the idea of change threatens the believability of the bible.


Yep it's sickening how they twist and tailor everything to make it relevant.

 
steveo 2017-01-09 17:36:15 

Wow, religion really gets people worked up, 10 pages and no end in sight

 
bravos 2017-01-09 17:43:41 

In reply to SnoopDog

You a Pastafarian too?

 
nick2020 2017-01-09 20:37:20 

In reply to bravos

Now don't get me wrong,if you don't believe in the bible but still looking for some other imaginary friend to believe in your work is still ahead of you..


Maybe you can explain to me how we got here.

Even science will tell you that you were created bravos and in your words if you believe that you just magically appeared here then your work is still ahead of you.

What I leave entirely up to anyone is who or what created us - Bang or Bob. I don't know but I am totally fine with your beliefs on the matter.

 
nick2020 2017-01-09 20:38:55 

In reply to steveo

black knows what card to play.

 
black 2017-01-09 20:48:01 

In reply to nick2020

Lots of gaping holes in Creationary theory, it doesn't establish an evolutionary link between humans and primates, which we know exist from genetic materials.

Why not? The people that wrote the Bible were not smart enough to figure it out and give credit to God.

The list is long of the things they couldn't figure out (including round earth) which only proves that this stuff was made up.

 
steveo 2017-01-09 20:54:26 

In reply to nick2020

black knows what card to play


Yes, but its more than that, religion always gets a lot of hits

There is a saying, nobody believes more in god than an atheist

 
pelon 2017-01-09 20:58:20 

In reply to black


Lots of gaping holes in Creationary theory, it doesn't establish an evolutionary link between humans and primates, which we know from genetic materials.
Bro you revving the engine to high with that one. For one, the creation story does not, will not and has never meant to link man to primates... so you running into a wall of stupid with that one. The creation story is the religious alternative to the evolution story.

Creatures do not evolve based on the bible Creation Theory. They were created "as they is" by god and remain so today. It is science that says otherwise. ( i know that you know this, just saying)

Creation story served it's time. Respect due.
lol lol

 
black 2017-01-09 21:02:38 

In reply to pelon

That's my point, the link proved them wrong. lol

The bible spoke of humans as if they are the only thing that matters, but with evolution, animals are just as intricate to the existence of life on earth.

 
bravos 2017-01-09 21:27:14 

In reply to nick2020

Maybe you can explain to me how we got here.


No I can't,nor can the pope.

 
bravos 2017-01-09 21:31:43 

Many well known modern scholars have their say and very effectively so,but this guy hits the raw point every time!! Trump like?? smile

 
bravos 2017-01-09 21:33:22 

This is what real enlightenment is all about..opens your eyes..

 
Norm 2017-01-09 22:03:59 

Man, all you still at it? Darn!

I am beginning to wonder if you guys aren't a bunch of undercover Vatican inquisition agents - trying to find a new set of heretics for the next public burning! Friar Black? Father Pelon? Bishop Bravos?

smile

(Just kidding, of course. All you ready for some more?)

 
black 2017-01-09 22:30:55 

In reply to Norm

Bravos and pelon are just too much for you guys. lol

 
Norm 2017-01-09 22:31:01 

In reply to bravos

OK, so the video criticizes Mother Theresa (according to a volunteer) for allowing people under her care to die without seeking out every possible means of saving them, "making the rich feel like they are helping the poor", accepting gifts from rich folks, including US President Reagan, who (the video asserts) was responsible for the deaths of Catholic priests and nuns in El Salvador, pushes the Catholic ant-abortion agenda, etc, etc.

Nowhere does it assert that Mother Theresa did not assist the poor in India, killed or robbed people, etc. Why then are we to conclude that Mother Theresa was really a bad person?

Because someone took the trouble to make a video with that message? Because it suits our mindset? Pelon will soon be on your case for your poor scientific investigation techniques!

All you simply building "cases" based on the emotions of those with sympathetic views. That might be good enough for Black, but please bring out some serious arguments.

 
Norm 2017-01-09 22:33:49 

In reply to black

Bravos and pelon are just too much for you guys.

Yeah, I did notice how you and your Pissing Squad were cheering on each other, high-fiving each other, etc! What exactly did you guys achieve again?

smile

 
Norm 2017-01-09 22:38:22 

In reply to np

I had already taken leave of CC.com

Not a problem.

 
black 2017-01-09 22:41:46 

In reply to Norm

Leviticus 21

16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God.

18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.

21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God.

22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.


If this nonsense doesn't change your mind, nothing will.

God cannot heal these people but instead, they are scorned and shamed.

Modern medicine can though.

 
Norm 2017-01-09 23:05:08 

In reply to black

The narrative addresses requirements for worshipers to be allowed into the inner temple of the Temple in Jerusalem, where the "curtain" hid the Ark of the Covenant. (This was the main temple of the Hebrews, not any old temple anywhere.)

It is NOT about healing people, or event a reference to healing.

Again, the appeal to emotion - "they are scorned and shamed" - a conclusion based on complete ignorance of subject matter.

Shame, shame, shame!

 
Norm 2017-01-09 23:16:17 

In reply to black

Did you know that Jesus went about revising the majority of the prescriptive Hebrew doctrines (the "Laws of Moses") and practices that were laid out in the Old Testament and elsewhere?

He sought to replace them with an approach based on simple principles, which allowed those after a great deal of latitude in the specifics of their worshiping. The text you quoted above is an example of the prescriptive approach that Jesus was trying to bring to an end.

So, unless you were criticizing Judaism, which still upholds the Old Testament requirements, all your arguments against Christianity about Old Testament issues were simply pointless and unwarranted. If you want to criticize Christianity, try criticizing Jesus or his followers.

 
black 2017-01-09 23:21:19 

In reply to Norm

The narrative addresses requirements for worshipers to be allowed into the inner temple of the Temple in Jerusalem, where the "curtain" hid the Ark of the Covenant. (This was the main temple of the Hebrews, not any old temple anywhere.)


So they are not good enough to enter the Temple, is that it? They even mentioned short people, that is just plain silly.

It is NOT about healing people, or event a reference to healing.


It is not about healing but they can be healed like nothing ever happened. Do you see what is happening here? The sick are treated like they are cursed, that is ancient thinking, anyone can get sick, it not about being bad people but of course these ignorant people couldn't figure that out.

Again, the appeal to emotion - "they are scorned and shamed" - a conclusion based on complete ignorance of subject matter.


If anyone is ignorant, it's the people that wrote the bible. This type of stuff is talked about throughout the bible.

 
Norm 2017-01-09 23:35:38 

In reply to black

If anyone is ignorant, it's the people that wrote the bible.

Maybe, but that particular section was written about 3 thousand years ago, and it was intended to prescribe clearly who was to be allowed into the most sacred part of the Temple. It was their time, their temple, their needs, their way of doing things based on their circumstances, etc.

Those requirements were never considered binding on Christians, who appeared a thousand years later, with Jesus offering a "new explanation", thereby tacitly criticizing the old ways.

If you doubt that Jesus wanted to change the old ways, including what was allowed by established Hebrew practice in that Temple, read what he did to the people there the first (and last) time he went there as an adult.

They crucified him, in part because of this, a few days later - a consequence he was well aware of.

 
black 2017-01-09 23:57:55 

In reply to Norm

This stuff is contradictory, how do we know what to abide by?

Even if it was intended for people of that Temple, wouldn't some people reading this, interpret it that all people with those illnesses, (anywhere) should be avoided?

 
Norm 2017-01-10 00:17:21 

In reply to black

wouldn't some people reading this, interpret it that all people with those illnesses, (anywhere) should be avoided?

Obviously things could be misunderstood without adequate knowledge of the context, which is why a humble approach to such a complex subject would probably be more rewarding than chasing off those who might be able to shed light on things.

(For example, reference to the "curtain" places the context in the inner temple of the Temple, but that cannot be understood without reading everything. The "curtain", its relation to the Ark of Covenant, etc, are explained elsewhere in the early parts of the Old Testament, but I cannot remember where.)

Of course, this place is full of dogmatists who want only to "convert" you to THEIR religious beliefs, with probably no interest in the actual information being examined, but even they may have something useful to add at times.

I studied this subject (on my own) for this very same reason. I didn't want dogmatists BSing me! On the other hand, I am happy to discuss and share my views on the subject - openly.

That Ark of Covenant had some serious power (according to the Bible, of course!), including the power to electrocute ("strike with lightning"!) and afflict those touching it carelessly with illnesses. This might lend some context to this passage.

Perhaps the passage you brought up had a lot more in it than you realized!

 
Norm 2017-01-10 05:40:57 

In reply to pelon

Aztecs, Asians, Zulus etc .... all descended from Noah, his wife and 6 others??? (that is mathematically impossible)

If we assume that only Noah's 3 sons had offspring after the Flood and that all of the world's 7.5 billion descended from them in equal numbers, then each one would be the ancestor of 2.5 billion people.

Let's assume that a generation is 30 years, and let's take the Bible's info for the date of the Flood, which puts it at 2348 BC (or 2348 + 2016 = 4364 years ago). From then to now, we would have 4364 / 30 = 145 generations.

If each of the 3 sons got a child in the first year after the Flood then the population of children offspring per son at the start of Generation 1 would be 1. If each child gets 2 children by age 30, the population of new children by the start Generation 2 = 2.

If each successive new child gets 2 children in 30 years, there would be 4 by (the start of) Generation 3, 8 by Generation 4, 16 by Generation 5, etc, and 2^(n-1) by Generation n.

Each son would have produced 2,097,150 by Generation 20 (= 600 years after the Flood), and 2,147,483,648 by Generation 30 (= 900 years after the Flood.

Each generation would need to produce 1.16 new children per generation to attain today's 7.5 billion (counting new children in the last generation only!), or an annual worldwide population increase of about 0.5%. (The current rate is 1.11%, and it is slowing down.)

So, do you still think that it is mathematically impossible for 3 couples to populate the Earth with today's population, starting right after the Flood?

Do I think that's the way it happened? No, but it is very possible mathematically.

 
pelon 2017-01-10 08:20:34 

In reply to Norm
Mathematically, very very very possible - and quite frankly - I hope you don't get hooked up on this "perfect model" where each lives and has 2 kids... the fact that plague, famine, mortality rates, death rates etc infant death rates, fertility issues, life expectancy - all are excluded from your numbers. But let me be clear: in a perfect no death no health issue and with every woman having 2 kids then yes: possible.

What about genetics? What about the fact that no other civilization that was around at that time speaks of a "global flood". What of the unique animals that only occur in the Galapagos or Tasmania.

Some fundamental issues with the fable. And I take you back to the original query: how can Moses attribute Noah to a fable that was around long before Noah was born?

So yes the math, in a perfect lab of every woman having 2 kids and their kids having 2 kids etc. every generation for 1000's of years it is very possible... except that...

 
black 2017-01-10 09:05:45 

In reply to Norm

That Ark of Covenant had some serious power (according to the Bible, of course!), including the power to electrocute ("strike with lightning"!) and afflict those touching it carelessly with illnesses. This might lend some context to this passage.


That is called "magic" where I am from.

 
Norm 2017-01-10 09:12:21 

In reply to pelon

where each lives and has 2 kids...

They each need to average 1.16 kids - not 2. If they got 2 each, they would have reached the current population in 900 years.

What about the fact that no other civilization that was around at that time speaks of a "global flood".

how can Moses attribute Noah to a fable that was around long before Noah was born?

Ever heard of Lord Vishnu from Hinduism, who is known as the Preserver? Take a guess at what the "Nu" in Vishnu is. "Nu" is Noah's real name. Hinduism has a Flood story that has similarities to the Bible's. The Koran refers to the Flood too, with great similarity (no surprise there) but also with some differences.

I hope you don't get hooked up on this "perfect model"

Sort of like getting hooked on the "Let's criticize the Bible and religion blindly, because it's scientific to do" model, right?

Have you ever wondered why men like Gutenberg (of printing press fame), Martin Luther, etc, risked their lives to get the Bible into the hands of the common people during the Reformation? The Catholic Church (the church I was born into) controlled the common man by lying to them about the Bible's contents. They had no Bibles to check for themselves. As soon as free Bibles started to be handed out, the Church deemed them "blasphemous".

So, maybe the lessons of history have been lost on many of us. Knowledge, despite inherent inaccuracy (like the Rutherford model of the atom), helps us to make better decisions. "Truth" is a fiction, akin to the opiate referred to famously by Karl Marx in his criticism of religion, used conveniently by many.

 
black 2017-01-10 09:28:30 

In reply to Norm

Ever heard of Lord Vishnu from Hinduism, who is known as the Preserver? Take a guess at what the "Nu" in Vishnu is. "Nu" is Noah's real name. Hinduism has a Flood story that has similarities to the Bible's. The Koran refers to the Flood too, with great similarity (no surprise there) but also with some differences.


This, to me only indicates that different religions stole/borrowed from other religions.

Enough of the magical powers, people didn't heal or made sick by special powers back then and they can't do it now.

As I have said in other threads, all forces on this planet are physical. People cannot wish stuff and make them happen.

 
Tryangle 2017-01-10 10:02:10 

That Ark of Covenant had some serious power (according to the Bible, of course!), including the power to electrocute ("strike with lightning"!) and afflict those touching it carelessly with illnesses. This might lend some context to this passage.


Didn't some poor fella die right on the spot for daring to prevent the Ark of the Covenant from slipping to the ground? Now that seems harsh.

(and yes, I've read the argument that the Ark shouldn't have been put on the oxen card in the first place which apparently invoked God's wrath)

 
nick2020 2017-01-10 11:13:37 

In reply to pelon

Pelon,

What does believing we were created have to do with believing in monkey to man? Or religion? Or anything else beyond belief there is a creator?

What I do not understand is why marry two concepts together like god and religion. It is my belief that we were created. It is also my belief that we will also create life one day and be as gods. And by life I mean the same process that sparked our evolution.

Because history is cyclical like that. And I also believe the reason why we have a difficult time understand creation is because we are linear by design and our lifespan is linear but existence is not.

 
bravos 2017-01-10 11:21:34 

In reply to nick2020

we are linear by design



'Design'? Phew Nick you have to get out of that box,evolution puts design to rest,what sorta designer installs obsolete and potentially fatal components in it's design? Apart from the legendary Ford Pinto design team of course.

Clearly we've made no progress whatsoever over the last couple days.

Throw any old dirt in a pot or leave your ac drain pipe dripping on some accumulated dust and you would see 'design'. Maybe it''s magic/alien dust,but the secret is in the soil and water,new lifeforms and species of flora, fauna and micro-organisms are springing up everyday,even your keyboard is teeming with life,even under your fingernails,who design dat??..

 
bravos 2017-01-10 11:23:26 

In reply to Norm

You sure are one happy camper in looney land.. smile

 
black 2017-01-10 11:33:37 

In reply to Norm

Answer some of these contradictions, Norm.

 
bravos 2017-01-10 12:13:17 

In reply to black

OUCH!! redface

 
Prako 2017-01-10 12:17:45 

In reply to black

I see your quotes are from the Torah. Are you trying to get a Jewish perspective for your answers?

 
black 2017-01-10 12:32:00 

In reply to Prako

I see your quotes are from the Torah. Are you trying to get a Jewish perspective for your answers?


I am trying to get the right perspective.

 
Prako 2017-01-10 12:35:38 

In reply to black

Answer some of these contradictions


That Atheist should refrain from calling himself "Thinking"

A five year old could answer his first question about taking all the species of current living animals aboard the Ark.

Doesn't he know an artist doesn't actually need to pack all of his paints for a trip. He just needs the primary colours and everything can "evolve" (that's a word Atheists like to use) from that. Have you ever bought purple ink for a printer rolleyes

Did black's Atheist forget about his first principles when starting an argument?

Sometimes they feel they are so open minded that their brains fall out

 
Prako 2017-01-10 12:43:01 

In reply to black

I am trying to get the right perspective.


That is a good start to begin this discussion afresh.

The Torah is used to provide the dialogue about Jewish lineage. That's why all the books in The Torah focus on a particular patriarch - starting with Adam, moving to Noah then Abraham, Issac, Jacob, ... David, Solomon ... The Messiah

Then the New Testament begins, and the first paragraph of Matthew summarizes the Torah and lays the path for salvation history

 
black 2017-01-10 12:46:22 

In reply to Prako

You just confused the hell out of me.

Why don't you answer it, instead of the 5 year old?

 
nick2020 2017-01-10 12:49:14 

In reply to bravos

'Design'? Phew Nick you have to get out of that box,evolution puts design to rest,what sorta designer installs obsolete and potentially fatal components in it's design? Apart from the legendary Ford Pinto design team of course.


Clearly we will have to part ways on this one because it seems you are also stuck in the box when you hear certain words.

You are born. You live. Then you die. For you there is a beginning, a middle and an end. And because of this you will never, ever be able to understand the most difficult question:

Which came first - the chicken or the egg?

None of us can. Because we think there must be a first. That is how we think and that is who we are by design bravos.

Look like I said I really do not care what you use to determine how we get here but for pete's sake ask a question. That is how we discover things. So if man came from monkey and monkey came from single cell organisms and single cell organisms came from primordial soup and that came from a meteor all I want us to continue to ask is "where did the meteor come from?".

 
Prako 2017-01-10 12:56:33 

In reply to black

You just confused the hell out of me.

Why don't you answer it, instead of the 5 year old?


It means you're not an atheist after all. Your heart is changing.

The amount of animals in Noah's time would have been considerably less than what we have now through natural selection and evolution as per Darwin

As a simple example, Noah wouldn't have had to take dogs. He would probably have taken wolves which after time became domesticated and bred into what we call the modern day pet dog.

 
black 2017-01-10 13:01:36 

In reply to Prako

The amount of animals in Noah's time would have been considerably less than what we have now through natural selection and evolution as per Darwin

As a simple example, Noah wouldn't have had to take dogs. He would probably have taken wolves which after time became domesticated and bread into what we call the modern day pet dog.


What did lions evolved from?

Isn't this a relatively short time in the evolutionary scale?

 
bravos 2017-01-10 13:03:56 

In reply to nick2020

Clearly we will have to part ways on this one because it seems you are also stuck in the box when you hear certain words.


So you ready to smite your brother because I do not share your views bruh? Very Harsh!!! surprised

 
bravos 2017-01-10 13:11:59 

In reply to black

People forget that we're evolving everyday and so is the earth and plants and animals,do they really think the continental maps of today would remain forever?

Without going into the scientific intricacies of evolution just that basic fact alone rubbishes their religious stories.

And when does the bible get renewed with some new revelations? As our existences are 'linear' as nicky boy suggests shouldn't a god apply doses of divinity that can be accurately recorded and distributed among generations or at least between centuries so that us his 'creations' can be guided accordingly?

As his creations are we more organized than god?

Has god given up?


....................


.....................


.....................

 
pelon 2017-01-10 13:20:33 

In reply to Prako

As a simple example, Noah wouldn't have had to take dogs. He would probably have taken wolves which after time became domesticated and bred into what we call the modern day pet dog.

Don't get cute. Genesis says that all unique species were created by god, so while the wolf and our modern dog are the same, they count as 1 species... yet they are many 100's of thousands of unique species other than wolf/dog...

To this number, we must add the myriad of extinct prehistoric animals, which creationists assure us were alive at the time of the flood. This would vastly increase the numbers, since "only a tiny percentage of the animal and plant species that have ever existed are alive today"
However, since creationists do not believe in transitional forms, we can again give them the benefit of the doubt and add to our total only the 200,000 different fossils that have been described. [Fossils point to species no longer around.... them alone total 200 000 unique species]

Of course, we can't forget that Genesis 7:2-3 (particularly in the Revised Standard Version) makes it clear that only unclean animals come in single pairs, male and female; the clean animals and birds come in seven pairs, male and female. That means fourteen of each clean animal and each bird. But since figures for the number of clean animals are hard to find, we will have to let creationists off the hook and ignore them. Birds are another story. There are 8,590 species of birds. Since they have already been calculated into our figure of 1,877,920 species or 3,755,840 individual animals on the ark, we need only six more pairs of each species of bird to make it come out to seven pairs. That brings our count up to a grand total of 3,858,920 animals aboard the ark—two of each species, except birds which number fourteen each.[/quote]

Don't attempt to add the numbers up. It gets comical.

just like the timelines in the bible are wrong... the fable of the ark is just that a fable. Accept it. Dinosaurs alone would take up all the space on the ark alone (yes, the bible gives EXACT dimensions of the ark.) How you gonna fit 500000+ animals in the Ark the size of a football field?

The bible clearly, very clearly has the earth as being less than 7000 years old, yet today - with archeology and carbon dating, we know it's been here much much longer than that - millions of years old in fact. Hence no mention of dinosaurs that had long vanished before written/recorded history.

Flaws up and down.

 
black 2017-01-10 13:44:40 

In reply to bravos

As his creations are we more organized than god?


Well, we found cures for many illnesses that were scorned back in those days.

 
black 2017-01-10 13:51:45 

In reply to pelon

People accepted that BS back in those days because they couldn't do the math. lol lol lol

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-10 14:30:06 

In reply to pelon

The bible clearly, very clearly has the earth as being less than 7000 years old, yet today - with archeology and carbon dating, we know it's been here much much longer than that - millions of years old in fact. Hence no mention of dinosaurs that had long vanished before written/recorded history.


Do you take into consideration what the Bible said happened AFTER THE FLOOD?

1.World climatic changes...the advent of winter,spring, summer and autumn in many areas of the world...before the flood, rain never fell and it was a warm paradise like climate throughout.

2.Humans no longer lived excess of 120 years....Biblical scientists have even suggested this is because of the removal of a canopy blocking the full effect of the sun's ultra violent rays.

3.Humans permitted to eat meat...before the Flood they didn't eat meat...it also means the advent of carnivorous animals, an evolution in itself.

4.Atmospheric conditions changing considerably...it is stated that man could run for miles and miles without getting tired before the flood...the oxygen content in the atmosphere changed.

5.The ALMIGHTY GOD completely changing time, space and climate....how can you measure the earth's time of existence then correctly if you do not consider the impact of the flood?

In response to an earlier question, it is clearly evident that the creatures in the sea did not perish...but in respect of dinosaurs, they were clearly wiped out by the flood and those surviving in the sea had to contend with cold climates which they couldn't exist in.

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-10 14:34:58 

Those fantastic creatures that existed pre Flood also were wiped out....centuars (horse with a human head), minotaurs, griffins, creatures of legend which were really the result of rebel spirit beings coupling with humans and even animals.

They are some who suggest that the dinosaurs were also hybrids and were not permitted in the Ark and subsequently wiped out.

 
black 2017-01-10 14:41:29 

In reply to analyst-kid

Those fantastic creatures that existed pre Flood also were wiped out....centuars (horse with a human head), minotaurs, griffins, creatures of legend which were really the result of rebel spirit beings coupling with humans and even animals.

They are some who suggest that the dinosaurs were also hybrids and were not permitted in the Ark and subsequently wiped out.


You've now turned the subject into comedy. lol lol lol

Dinosaurs died out long before your bible revelation.

 
Kay 2017-01-10 14:50:58 

In reply to analyst-kid

I heard all those stories as a 3-4 yr old in Sunday school but was too young to tell Ms. Sundayschoolteacher her panties showing bigly although I could have seen through it even at that age.... smile

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-10 15:11:23 

In reply to black

as I said it was suggested.

your theory that the dinosaurs died out long is based on the "millions of years" the earth existed theory.

The Flood dispels that theory with its many changes coming after which were climatic and others

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-10 15:28:06 

In reply to black

You've now turned the subject into comedy.


Its all there in the Bible.

You all talking about the Flood without considering why did God caused a Flood and what was the result of the flood.

The Bible clearly states in Genesis Chap 6 the sons of God aka ANGELS put on fleshy bodies and had sex with the women of the earth producing NEPHILIM...Giants and humans of fantastic strength a la Hercules, Thor...literal supermen walking on the earth.
This caused widespread evil and violence which caused God to bring a flood to wipe out mankind and he spared faithful Noah and his family and the animals...those angels were banned from re-entering heaven and placed in chains of darkness for later judgement.

After the flood God changed the earth's climatic situation and shortened the human life span among many other changes.

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-10 15:32:51 

6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

 
black 2017-01-10 15:34:48 

In reply to analyst-kid

The Bible clearly states in Genesis Chap 6 the sons of God aka ANGELS put on fleshy bodies and had sex with the women of the earth producing NEPHILIM...Giants and humans of fantastic strength a la Hercules, Thor...literal supermen walking on the earth.
This caused widespread evil and violence which caused God to bring a flood to wipe out mankind and he spared faithful Noah and his family and the animals...those angels were banned from re-entering heaven and placed in chains of darkness for later judgement.


lol lol lol

 
Prako 2017-01-10 15:35:51 

In reply to pelon


The bible clearly, very clearly has the earth as being less than 7000 years old, yet today - with archeology and carbon dating, we know it's been here much much longer than that - millions of years old in fact. Hence no mention of dinosaurs that had long vanished before written/recorded history.


From first principles of Physics, how are days and years measured? If you would understand that then you would understand how that 7000 years is measured. It is basic science and Mathematics.

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-10 15:36:35 

2 Peter Chap 2 v 4

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-10 15:42:37 

In reply to black

you could laugh all your like...it is there in the Bible so you can go ahead and consider it a book of fables and a book of comedy.

But I believe in the Creator and he has revealed many of the mysteries of this earth to us in that written word.

 
bravos 2017-01-10 15:56:09 

In reply to black

Bro you drowning in comedy!These folks crazy!! lol

 
black 2017-01-10 19:11:15 

In reply to bravos

There she is.

 
Norm 2017-01-10 19:37:40 

In reply to black

Man, I see you have your hands full today. Blitzkrieg by at least one believer!

Going thru all these posts quickly, I would like to point out that the Bible did refer to dinosaurs, and placed there appearance in the world before man. Look for "the great sea monsters" in the early parts of Genesis.

The Bible referred to dinosaurs long before we "re-discovered" them. It also associated them with the sea - a fact that took us a long time to "discover".

There are other things in the Bible that were remarkable, like the Earth being describes as an orb or circle - long before we gave up on our scientific flat-earth fix. The hydrologic cycle is also described, way before we "found" it - through keen scientific deduction, of course!

There are many more such things in the Bible, and I'll bet there are a few websites out there that have gone into this in more detail.

 
pelon 2017-01-10 20:00:24 

In reply to Norm

Look for "the great sea monsters" in the early parts of Genesis.
You can't in all seriousness accept detailed dimensions of the ark - down to the cubic foot - and tell me you believe every unique pair of animals - in the history of the world - fit on one floating boat.

Remember the bible also gave dimensions of the "ark" a flaw to be sure.

 
Norm 2017-01-10 20:02:50 

In reply to black

Answer some of these contradictions, Norm.

I would be happy to give it a shot, but I would like to know first how would such a colossal expenditure of my time benefit you.

Would it make you wiser? More accepting of the beliefs of others? Hate the Bible at least a little less?

If you swear on a pile of Bibles, Korans, etc, that you will henceforth believe every word in said books after I have gone through the sizable list you refer me to, I'll do it! smile

Otherwise, you will just pull up another dumb list, like a brainless robot, programmed to hate the Bible!

 
black 2017-01-10 20:22:01 

In reply to Norm

The bible talked about mythical creatures that never existed. I can assure you that you'll never find fossil remains of half Human, half horse creatures.

 
pelon 2017-01-10 20:26:20 

In reply to Norm

Norm, some folk that challenge the bible have read it as much as you and have studied it as long or longer than you. [hope you can accept that]

One of the reoccurring themes from your crew is that "they don't know the bible"

gosh - some friends (well 2) of mine when to Theology school and came out convinced the bible was intended to be a social guide and NOT a scientific reference. Case close.
Mysticism. We all grew up with strong spirituality in the region, but as adults we get to call on philosophical capacities that we lacked as children... those thoughts expand our potential - not keep us locked/closed.

It's a shame that to extract the benefit of the biblical fables - you insist that the stories be accepted literally.

Shame.

 
Norm 2017-01-10 20:30:21 

In reply to pelon

tell me you believe every unique pair of animals

Of course not!

I believe that the Flood was only regional, because there is no evidence to corroborate a worldwide flood in the year 2348 BC or thereabouts. There isn't even evidence (currently) for a regional flood at that time too either, but other circumstances may be at play there.

The Flood was supposed to have taken place a thousand years before Moses wrote about it, in a place far away from Egypt, with the original accounts in a language Moses didn't know. No original copy of Genesis has survived, and it had to have been translated from at least Hebrew to Greek or Latin before English. Would it be impossible for inadvertent changes to occur after such a long time and multiple translations?

Also, you simply cannot provide adequate accommodation, even for a few weeks, for even a fraction of the animals on the planet, in any manmade structure - even with today's technology.

The problems with very specialized animals, like panda bears that eat only bamboo, would make the task impossible. Then you would have to keep the lions from eating the deer, etc. And, who's going to feed the cobras? smile

My take on such problems with any document (scientific or nor - and I review a lot of scientific and engineering documents professionally) is to note them - like a hard drive notes a bad sector on the storage medium and skips it over in future "reads".

More often than not, the document remains intact, despite a few bad sectors.

 
Norm 2017-01-10 20:36:19 

In reply to black

The bible talked about mythical creatures that never existed. I can assure you that you'll never find fossil remains of half Human, half horse creatures.

Such as? Don't take a reference to centaurs in this discussion as "gospel". Find it yourself.

On the other hand, the Bible mentions the hyrax (the only known living relative of elephants) long before it became known to the (supposedly all-knowing) Western world. So, don't jump to convenient conclusions too hastily.

 
pelon 2017-01-10 20:39:29 

In reply to Norm

Impressive turn:

Of course not! I believe that the Flood was only regional.
shock shock shock

STOP THE PRESS.

You... YOU [deep breath] let me repeat... YOU believe parts of the bible - and insert your own interpretations? That makes you a non-believer in the literal interpretations of the bible... one can't pick and choose on "gods" word... it's all or nothing.

Lets play back, digging deeper on rational thought you now claim:

Also, you simply cannot provide adequate accommodation, even for a few weeks, for even a fraction of the animals on the planet, in any manmade structure - even with today's technology.


If by your own assessment the biblical account was "regional".... and all those animals could not fit (duh!).... then

how. can. the. word. of. god. be. errant?

 
Norm 2017-01-10 21:00:07 

In reply to pelon

read it as much as you and have studied it as long or longer than you.

Man, I read a lot of things! The Bible is just one of them. I feel no compulsion, or obligation, to have my life run by the Bible (or any other holy book). That would be my decision to make - either way.

On the other hand, trying to discredit another person's belief system is just as dumb as dogmatic belief in your own, and is actually another dogma in itself.

the bible was intended to be a social guide and NOT a scientific reference.


No, it wasn't. It was intended to be a history of the Hebrews only. When Jesus declared that God's promise to the Hebrews was now open to the Gentiles (non-Hebrews) as well, it took on spiritual significance for everyone else. It was never intended to be "scientific" - a modern day concept that itself is quite unstable.

as adults we get to call on philosophical capacities that we lacked as children... those thoughts expand our potential - not keep us locked/closed.


Are you sure we aren't kept "locked" philosophically? How did Einstein figure out the Theory of Relativity and others of his time couldn't? Maybe it was because they were all "locked" into the scientifically accepted Newton's Laws and dared not commit sacrilege against accepted scientific thought?

The same "locked in" problems that face dogmatic believers also face science in its current state. In this respect, it is no different from religion.

Some perspectives could only be gained by putting yourself in "someone else's shoes". If you want to understand religion (or your enemy in politics) you have to be able to put yourself in the religious person's shoes and see the world temporarily through their eyes.

you insist that the stories be accepted literally.


You are either not reading what I write, or just "floating one up on the off stump", looking for a hasty reaction. smile

No problem, either way!

 
Norm 2017-01-10 21:23:51 

In reply to pelon

how. can. the. word. of. god. be. errant?

You were probably reading whatever I wrote here, for years, with jaundiced eyes - out of mad desire to hate the Bible, a la Black!

I never supported the view that the Bible was the word of God, was perfect, was flawless, etc, or that Jesus was God, or any other such crazy dogmatic stuff.

I believe, however, that some of those apparent fantasies have substance that we simply do not understand today. Our future understanding of them would not necessarily lead to the same conclusions as the dogmatists.

Current scientific beliefs, such as evolution, would lead us to conclude that life evolved in may places in the universe, and not just on Earth (a current scientific dogma). If life evolved elsewhere, 50% would be likely to be more advanced intellectually than us, and some would be so advanced that they would be gods to us, and even to each other.

Nothing would have prevented such advanced beings from interacting with humans on Earth. Such interaction could very well have been passed down to us in garbled tales such as the Bible and mythology.

At the very least, an understanding of the Scriptures of the major religions helps us to understand politics, ward off dogmatists, etc. You wouldn't find employment (except as a conman!) with a good knowledge of the Bible, but addressing the accompanying issues (dogma, etc) has great value in the analysis of documents in general.

 
black 2017-01-10 22:13:28 

In reply to pelon

STOP THE PRESS.


You... YOU [deep breath] let me repeat... YOU believe parts of the bible - and insert your own interpretations? That makes you a non-believer in the literal interpretations of the bible... one can't pick and choose on "gods" word... it's all or nothing.

Lets play back, digging deeper on rational thought you now claim:


Well said.

Norm is taking parts of the bible that supports his argument and discard the ones that weakens it.

You are exactly right.

 
Norm 2017-01-10 22:20:54 

In reply to black

Norm is taking parts of the bible that supports his argument

Which is?

 
bravos 2017-01-11 06:09:38 

In reply to black

Cherry picking..it's the norm with believers/deluded

 
Prako 2017-01-11 09:48:47 

In reply to bravos

But isn't that what you and black are doing - picking certain parts of the Torah in your comments and virtually ignoring the New Testament?

 
bravos 2017-01-11 10:07:57 

In reply to Prako

But isn't that what you and black are doing - picking certain parts of the Torah in your comments and virtually ignoring the New Testament?


Bro bro bro!!! That's where 'platform'/perspective comes in maaaan,how can something so divine and absolute at the onset 'IN THE BEGINNING' be so flawed and in need of correction and thus open to scrutiny, c'mon man stop right there..

There should be no room for Black and I to cherry-pick,cherry picking is what solves crimes,it's what brings the truth forward...cherry picking is what exposes lies..

It's all man made and it shows!!

Gosh man your comment totally shows why we need to rid ourselves of these fables as our only scope,you totally asked me a question where the answer should be obvious,in other words Black and I are not beyond reproach and what we say is not set in stone,but what a purported god does should be at least,shouldn't it? Should there be any leeway for Black and I to cherry pick?

This is GOD we talking about here man!! The creator of the Universe,didn't he know how to cure all those people he so scorned,didn't he know women had a menstrual cycle,didn't he know all species couldn't possibly fit in that ark?

Didn't he know appendix are an obsolete and potentially fatal component?

Where's my missing rib?

Come better than that pal you dealing with men that have long remove the blinders,you should too..you need some clarity bad.

 
black 2017-01-11 10:34:11 

In reply to bravos

This is GOD we talking about her man!! The creator of the Universe,didn't he know how to cure all those people he so scorned,didn't he know women had a menstrual cycle?


You are exactly right.

We know that people who contract diseases are not bad people, anyone can contract a disease. If God is the creator of everything, (including viruses) why didn't he heal these people, instead of shaming them? If man can figure this out, why couldn't he?

They even went as far as shaming short people.

These are the things that brings religion into question.

 
Prako 2017-01-11 10:35:51 

In reply to bravos

But wasn't in the beginning everything was perfect?

Wasn't it freedom of choice that led to the deterioration of perfection?

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-11 10:37:43 

In reply to black

Hallelujah!! We've found Jesus!

 
Prako 2017-01-11 10:41:07 

In reply to black

Could there be a reason that disease/illness causes others to display compassion and patience toward an individual thus making the general public more United in a worthy cause?

At the end of the day isn't the goal of humanity to display caring and love?

 
black 2017-01-11 11:08:26 

In reply to SnoopDog

Yuh too wicked. lol

You're going to pay for your sins. lol

 
black 2017-01-11 11:35:32 

In reply to Prako

The things I've listed, would continue to be true today, if man had not proven them wrong. Very little has changed in the bible.

The good book is loaded with violence, revenge, shame and scorn.

Innocent people paid the price for such ignorance. Look at the Middle East, in this case it's the Quran.

 
bravos 2017-01-11 11:53:51 

In reply to SnoopDog

Robes and all!! he also got some big balls,look again! lol

 
pelon 2017-01-11 11:57:15 

In reply to Prako

The objective here is not to bat and bowl with religion.

Let us be clear, objective and rational in this discourse.

When asked for his own assessment of the ark story, Norm repeatedly stated that he had objection to the events as described by Moses.

When asked:
do you believe every pair of animal in all of history fit on an ark: "Of course not!"

on the flood itself:
"I believe that the Flood was only regional."

If, you accuse Black and bravos of "picking and choosing" yet find no red flag with the picking and choosing of Norm, then you are biased only because one side favors your outcome.

So yes, it appears everyone is "cherry picking" yet here I am slowly digging away:

1. Ark story flawed.
2. Biblical timeline on the age of earth flawed. (explained by believers by saying a day could be as long as you wish....)

Love the discourse.

 
bravos 2017-01-11 12:14:54 

In reply to Prako

Bro you making god look inept and inefficient,please stop..God is all knowing,all everything,everything he does has to be perfection,that's what we were taught,stop shifting the goal posts to justify bronze age logic,a 'Newest Testament' is long overdue,but anything purported as divine today needs to be backed up by proof,so I guess even the new testament is outdated and dated as well huh,but ironically it's in the new testament that we see the dark side of Jesus,you want links?

And it is the new testament that brought us the lovely idea of burning for eternity,I wish god would just grow up and stop being so vindictive and blood thirsty,how pathetic that our existence is in the hands of a being that would skewer intelligent civil and resourceful creatures to eternal fire for trivial offences.

How vindictive of gentle Jesus for cursing a tree for not being in season when he required a fruit,how mad the concepts of a mad time,we progressive human beings think the teachings of the bible are retrogressive and should be viewed as mythology,all values mentioned in the bible are innately human,both good and bad,the bible was an attempt to shift the balance in a darker time with recommendations that would fit such a time,when in 2017 your'e talking about offerings,Noah's ark,Adam and Eve,witchcraft like driving pigs into the sea full of sin and some celestial father and son dictatorship filled with sidekick minions, you not talking like people who want to reach their full potential,you talking like people who can't see beyond the fishbowl that they've been assigned.


Break the fishbowl .

 
bravos 2017-01-11 12:32:37 

This is Black on how this thread is going.

 
Prako 2017-01-11 12:39:44 

In reply to pelon


1. Ark story flawed.
2. Biblical timeline on the age of earth flawed. (explained by believers by saying a day could be as long as you wish....)


Who said a day could be as long as you wish? I already pointed out that a day length is defined by Physics and basic Mathematics. Don't you understand that?

 
black 2017-01-11 12:47:53 

In reply to bravos

lol lol lol

I am not gloating, you and pelon did most of the work.

It's about laying out the facts and letting people decide if they still want to persist with such nonsense.

Religion has been on a steady decline and will continue to do so. People want to be free, not "hog tied" by religious codes. Yes, society do need moral codes but not to the point of eternal damnation for not following them.

 
Prako 2017-01-11 12:49:26 

In reply to bravos

I guess you don't have an understanding of Israeli culture.

When you say "land of wood and water" everybody knows that is Jamaica or "Uncle Sam" is USA. When the reference was made of "the fig tree" do you think it was a tree that was being talked about?

Also the previous paragraph just before the fig tree is intuitive to the action. Additionally the day of the particular week encapsulates the reason.

 
Kay 2017-01-11 12:50:50 

In reply to pelon

(explained by believers by saying a day could be as long as you wish....)

Well a few biblical men lived as long as they wished .... so coming from the bible that concept is not farfetched smile

 
pelon 2017-01-11 13:07:02 

In reply to Prako


Who said a day could be as long as you wish? I already pointed out that a day length is defined by Physics and basic Mathematics. Don't you understand that?
Yuh kinda getting lose there.... a day is nothing more than an axis cycle of earth around the sun...

Two things:
1. be clear: do you believe heaven and earth was created in 6 days, as stated in the bible?

2. About a day: The SUN and the axis of our earth around it - has always dictated "a day"
Shift: it has change only in seconds over a 1000s of years... it increases 1.7 milliseconds per century.
Don't question my understanding of a day... it is not 'my version': it's the sun and the rotation of earth that has called the shots on the length of a day....

SO the timeline of earth being less than 7000 years as per Genesis is FLAWED, fabled and weak now that we have fossilized evidence to the contrary. In the dark ages, of course mankind had no carbon dating, but FYI it's 2017 >>>>

Genesis clearly outlined the age of the earth. From creation to Adam to Christ very very explicit - yet the numbers are less than 7000 years.... this is impossible, do you agree?

 
Prako 2017-01-11 13:29:53 

In reply to pelon

Excellent that you defined the correct measurement of a day: motion of earth around the sun

From Genesis, if initially there was no sun for the first few events. How long was a day?

 
black 2017-01-11 13:35:11 

In reply to Prako

From Genesis, if initially there was no sun for the first few events. How long was a day?

It had to be a short period of time because we know life cannot exist without the sun

 
Prako 2017-01-11 13:43:48 

In reply to black


It had to be a short period of time because we know life cannot exist without the sun


Ok folks, black must be smarter than what he just posted. It was probably a Freudian slip. Please don't laugh at him.

I can't really dialogue with you if that is your level of thought


Pelon and bravos would help you think it out

 
black 2017-01-11 13:53:23 

In reply to Prako

Maybe God made an exception.

 
pelon 2017-01-11 13:59:13 

In reply to Prako

You ask:

From Genesis, if initially there was no sun for the first few events. How long was a day?

So let's go to Genesis.... because a "day" as YOU agreed centers around the earth rotation around the sun...

Genesis 1:5 states:
Creation Day 1 (Genesis 1:1-5)
God created the heavens and the earth. “The heavens” refers to everything beyond the earth, outer space. The earth is made but not formed in any specific way, although water is present. God then speaks light into existence. He then separates the light from the dark and names the light “day” and the dark “night.” This creative work occurs from evening until morning – one day.

Creation Day 2 (Genesis 1:6-8 )
God creates the sky. The sky forms a barrier between water upon the surface and the moisture in the air. At this point earth would have an atmosphere. This creative work occurs in one day.

Creation Day 3 (Genesis 1:9-13)
God creates dry land. Continents and islands are above the water. The large bodies of water are named “seas” and the ground is named “land.” God declares that all this is good.

God creates all plant life both large and small. He creates this life to be self-sustaining; plants have the ability to reproduce. The plants were created in great diversity (many “kinds”). The earth was green and teeming with plant life. God declares that this work is also good. This creative work takes one day.

Creation Day 4 (Genesis 1:14-19)
God creates all the stars and heavenly bodies. The movement of these will help man track time. Two great heavenly bodies are made in relation to the earth. The first is the sun which is the primary source of light and the moon which reflects the light of the sun. The movement of these bodies will distinguish day from night. This work is also declared to be good by God. This creative work takes one day.

Creation Day 5 (Genesis 1:20-23)
God creates all life that lives in the water. Any life of any kind that lives in the water is made at this point. God also makes all the birds. The language allows that this may be the time God made flying insects as well (or, if not, they were made on day six). All of these creatures are made with the ability to perpetuate their species by reproduction. The creatures made on Day 5 are the first creatures blessed by God. God declares this work good, and it occurs in one day.

 
pelon 2017-01-11 13:59:49 

So we come to day 6....

Creation Day 6 (Genesis 1:24-31)
God creates all the creatures that live on dry land. This includes every type of creature not included on previous days and man. God declares this work good.

When God was creating man, He took counsel with Himself, “God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, in our likeness’” (Genesis 1:26). This is not an explicit revelation of the trinity but is part of the foundation for such, as God reveals an “us” within the Godhead. God makes man, and man is made in the image of God (men and women both bear this image) and is special above all other creatures. To emphasize this, God places man in authority over the earth and over all the other creatures. God blesses man and commands him to reproduce, fill the earth and subdue it (bring it under the rightful stewardship of man as authorized by God). God announces that man and all other creatures are to eat plants alone. God will not rescind this dietary restriction until Genesis 9:3-4.



IF DAY 6 INCLUDES ALL living creatures and all celestial bodies (day 4) then it's very very safe to say the celestial bodies INCLUDE the sun right?

IF the sun was there from day 4 at least - then from DAY 4 onward we are in a 24 hr cycle.
Therefore by the time man and all animals appear, we are in a 24 hr cycle, AGREE?????
(predicated on: a. celestial and b. earthly formation complete)

[I'll wait for your reply]

 
bravos 2017-01-11 14:24:02 

In reply to Prako


I guess you don't have an understanding of Israeli culture.


I despise Israeli culture and bible culture and never asked to be part of that franchise..Isreal is a barren wasteland which looks like hell on earth to me,let the bible tell me about my lush region and others,tell me a story about that and I'll be interested,but don't tell me my very existence stems from some ole desert and tales from it's illiterate superstitious inhabitants,the same people who used to bury their children in the foundations of their buildings for favors from god,it's a cult.

Does it feel natural or normal for you to be praying to some Israel and it's people? Pleh..Puke!

 
bravos 2017-01-11 14:34:37 

In reply to black

Maan it's as if we're getting nowhere,seems Ayenomal and Analyst-Skid have converted but Norman and Prakash seem to be fighting a lot harder than expected.. surprised

 
black 2017-01-11 14:52:24 

In reply to bravos

Hell is scaring them into believing. lol

 
np 2017-01-11 14:57:18 

In reply to pelon & black and bravos & snoop

Im reading with delight some of this discourse. I commend the time you, black and bravos, snoop spend trying to educate, redirect ... relieve from stresses --- these souls.

I'm elated I'm not alone in having redirected my life to a place I feel good about my own salvation from biblical terror, and have allowed for common-sense univeral observations of a world without end.

Keep on trucking my brothers !!! cool cool I'll find time to come back t othis discoursee ... since I do not see a timeline end for this thread, anytime soon!!!

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-11 15:55:03 

In reply to np

I'll find time to come back t othis discoursee ... since I do not see a timeline end for this thread, anytime soon!!!


It will probably end right about the time Yeshowa Bin Joseph returns to judge the living and the dead and usher in his glorious new kingdom. lol


In other words, never. lol

 
bravos 2017-01-11 17:13:03 

In reply to np

Your turn to grab the baton now sir!! cool

 
bravos 2017-01-11 17:13:57 

In reply to black

lol

 
black 2017-01-11 19:31:45 

In reply to bravos

The big fella is due for another trip.

Maybe he'll come back as Ayenmol or Norm?

 
Acid 2017-01-11 19:35:28 

In reply to pelon

It could therefore mean the first 4 days was a long time and that the next day's were shorter with the advent of the sun.

Also it could mean the individual elements took a long period of evolving and were eventually made into fruition after a specific time line.

I'm just commenting on the items you put forward

 
Prako 2017-01-11 19:40:35 

In reply to pelon


So let's go to Genesis.... because a "day" as YOU agreed centers around the earth rotation around the sun...


Now that predicates the earth and solar system is the same size as it is in modern times.

If the distance between the earth and sun is r, then from the creation perspective to now, has r been a constant?

Also Moses gives no further information on the definitions of the time line

 
pelon 2017-01-11 19:41:28 

In reply to Prako

Hope you stick with this and not get distracted.

on the end of the 6th day god was done. this means there was no further "design tweak/adjustment of distance" done to his creation because, by the bibles' admission based on Genesis 2:1 "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." [VERY IMPORTANT YOU READ GENESIS AGAIN]

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. [day 7: no changes either]

On the 6th day, based on the book, he created all animals - he did NOT change the solar work he completed on day 4

So lets recap: no solar system "redesign" as you postulated, because as well documented the man was pleased at each stage with what he did: Genesis 1:12, 1:18, 1:21 etc: "God saw that it was good."

Not "god saw it and tweaked it"

The rotation of the earth has not changed other than milliseconds per century.

NOW: IF god was please with his celestial creation, how in hell (no pun intended) could the design change?? on the 6th day forward the universe was as we know it, so said the bible! Adam, the sun, the rat, the Whale in the sea, dinosaurs .... all their... day 6 - and no changes since....

OK how, if the dimensions did not change - do you postulate that they DID change??? The bible in Genesis says repeatedly: "God saw that it was good."

This "understanding" inject the first flaw:

DAY 6 is the start of mankind and animal kingdom on earth with a fixed celestial presence.... fixed sun more importantly!

NOW: a query

Do you differ on my day 6 assessment????

 
Prako 2017-01-11 19:44:18 

In reply to bravos


I despise Israeli culture and bible culture


Not sure why you despise it. I don't despise you even though you subscribe to a atheistic culture.

But then again in another thread you were so positive on your family going to a Religious school. Why didn't you send them to a government school instead?

 
bravos 2017-01-11 19:57:57 

In reply to Prako

I don't despise you ,but I despise what a culture of blood sacrifice and ignorance can do to you,a culture that views our lovely women as chattel,a culture that says we must mutilate 'god given' parts of our anatomy to please some god,is it that he made a mistake in the design or is it that he wants blood to shed from that particular area?

I despise the culture,I want no part of it...I do not despise Israelis though cause that would be despising people I do not know,it's like how one may despise their policies regarding the Palestinians and it's all for some promised land in their heads....


np please sir I need a rest!!

 
Prako 2017-01-11 20:02:27 

In reply to pelon
We are also not taking into account the creation discourse by Moses are consecutive days or are the days milestones?

E.g. Long ago in cricket there was a rest day between the 3rd and 4th days but the rest day wasn't counted as a "day" so in terms of a time line the 5th day of play was actually the 6 day but for reference purposes in the match it was just referred to as the "5th Day"

 
pelon 2017-01-11 20:03:33 

In reply to Prako

Stay focused: Do you differ on my day 6 assessment????

RE: consecutive days

Genesis 1:8 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Genesis 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the forth day.
Genesis 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fith day.
If they where "gaps" or rest periods THEY WOULD HAVE SAID SO LIKE THEY DID ON DAY 7!!!

The bible CLEARLY MARKED DAY 1 into day 2 into day 3 into day 4.... from the time he "created" the solar system, we had a day night cycle.... NO GAPS SIR.
( I will respectfully ignore your tripe about cricket rest days, has it has no relevance to the fixed word in the bible)

 
pelon 2017-01-11 20:18:13 

In reply to Prako

Sir, what you will do indefinitely is dance and prance around the brutal reality:
from Adam (day 6, fixed sun in place) to Christ to Now as per the bible timelines, the earth is less than 7000 years old with life forms.

THIS IS A MONUMENTAL FLAW!!!! Earth is much much older... and we only figured this out in the last 150 years, first with archeology (fossils), then with carbon dating. In the dark ages mankind could not dare challenge.... and that is why today it is so ingrained in our society: centuries of acceptance.

Go with goodness in your heart.

 
black 2017-01-11 20:29:30 

In reply to pelon

It's clear that novices wrote the bible, they had no idea that science would catch up to the bible.

Seven thousand years is laughable, in comparison to the actual age of the earth.

 
pelon 2017-01-11 20:30:58 

In reply to black

It's clear that novices wrote the bible

Don't do that.... be careful not to come across as callously "dismissive"... respect that that is all he has known/been told/accepted from infancy to adulthood. It is near impossible to go against that....

Comfort in faith is real bro.... telling a man that Jonah could not live in a whale seems silly...

but to the believer.... ANYTHING attributed to their god is possible.

 
black 2017-01-11 20:46:59 

In reply to pelon

Ok, but why would God give us the capacity, if he didn't want us to question his work?

It's like parents saying, "do as I say, not as I do".

 
bravos 2017-01-11 20:53:56 

In reply to black

Have they infected pelon!!!? shock

Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
black 2017-01-11 20:57:56 

In reply to bravos

lol lol lol

He is trying not to offend.

 
pelon 2017-01-11 21:52:16 

In reply to bravos

Impossible to infect! Inoculated for decades... smile

You can't turn back once you've seen the light. I stand by my empathy for those that worship to mysticism.

De two of you seem to lack empathy for those that MUST believe. (fear of damnation and thing...) smile

lol lol

 
bravos 2017-01-11 22:37:14 

In reply to pelon

I fear no dog! Much less dalmatian! smile

 
bravos 2017-01-11 22:37:25 

In reply to black

smile smile

 
pelon 2017-01-11 22:49:24 

In reply to bravos

lol - corrected! lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

 
black 2017-01-11 22:51:57 

In reply to bravos

I fear no dog! Much less dalmatian


lol lol lol

 
Norm 2017-01-12 01:41:12 

In reply to black
Am busy! Will be back when I could to "try" with allyuh hopeless rasses. smile

Meanwhile, Prako is doing a great job. Has peon, er pelon, by the scruff of his neck. He'll soon become calbo!

 
black 2017-01-12 07:51:20 

In reply to Norm

Meanwhile, Prako is doing a great job. Has peon, er pelon, by the scruff of his neck. He'll soon become calbo!


You know norm, when I was younger, I used to love boxing, I couldn't understand why everyone would say my fighter lost, when I saw him as winning. As it turned out, I only saw the blows my fighter threw, not what he was taking.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 08:34:27 

All attempt can be made to present evolution as fact and the work of the learned. But evolution continues to be a theory.

Make fun of the beliefs of others because you can question it. That is your perogative. Those of you who cast thesE doubts have no proof for what you say. All you raise are questions then point to the fact that there are questions so it must be a hoax.
Nonsense.
There are millions of intellectuals who Worship God. There are many who once believed in evolution who, after study of God's word became believers. They try to make it seem that belief in God is a product of indoctrination. Nonsense. Or that people only believe because that is what they were taught as kids...junk! This mentallity simply exposes the motivation of these people, to expouse that they soehow are better than others because they have evolved. They use the idea to try and legitimize the idea!

I can raise any number of questions regarding evolution that not one of them could answer...like the fact that Science itself has shown that the very organisms which they claim were the beginning of life that evolved were themselves complex fully developed lifeforms.

How can nothing come from something? Where did the space, or Space itself come from? Where did the energy that caused the big bang come from? If man is the most evolved why is the Gorilla from which he evolved so much stronger? Why is it that they are all still here as fully formed beings?

Why are there such unbreakable laws that came to be from an event that caused the formation of so many Galaxies? Why is there no chaos? No unexplained occurrences popping up all over?

Why is there such perfect balance? We who can think, make decisions etc, build, form, plan....why can't we form a perfect system but the things around us that can`t think, form, plan, do?

Why do our bodies depend on things we are unaware of? Why are we dependent on things where thEre seems no reason why we are?
Air! Invisible yet the most important and powerful force. Why? Why did our bodies decide thag in order to live we needed this inexhaustible resource that it vould not see or touch?

Why not electricity? Robots can live! They do not need to eat, sleep, drink, breathe etc. So why are we not like them? Instead of having to depend on so many things we cannot control, why not be dependent on just one?
Why does all life depend on the sane basic things to live?
How is it that a random occurrence resulted in every organism working in the same manner? No chaos?

Then there are those who claim the Bible plagiarizes other stories...Then evolution plagiarizes Creation! Because Creation was believed first, and many of the teachings of evolution follows the same pattern as Creation.

There is NOTHING, NOTHING about evolution or Science that proves for a Certainty that God does not exist, and any careful examination raises real questions that has never been answered.

Whether God or evolution you have to at some point make the argument....where did the Energy come from! Science is yet to prove that! Then there are all the laws of zlife...who set them in place? All happened by chance? Unlikely! That disputes the theory of Science itself!

 
pelon 2017-01-12 08:45:59 

In reply to black

Where are the blows? None thrown none received.... lol lol lol lol

I said it is futile try to convince a man that the bible contains chronological errors and many of the fables are NOT to be taken literally.

One poster left... and Even Norm agreed! smile Only thing left not is to have a cold Guinness over the weekend. smile



lol lol lol

 
black 2017-01-12 09:01:37 

In reply to Ayenmol

Make fun of the beliefs of others because you can question it. That is your perogative. Those of you who cast thesE doubts have no proof for wgat you say. All you fo is raise questions then point to the fact that yhere are questions so it must be a hoax.

Nonsense. There are millions of intellectuals who Worship God. There are many who once believed in evolution who, after study oc God's word became believers. They try to make it seem that belief in God is a product of indoctrination. Nonsense.


You might be right, there might very well be a God, but not based on the evidence presented in the bible, that evidence has been proven to be faulty.

 
black 2017-01-12 09:03:29 

In reply to pelon

One poster left... and Even Norm agreed! smile Only thing left not is to have a cold Guinness over the weekend.


Will do. lol

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 09:08:33 

In reply to pelon

I said it is futile try to convince a man that the bible contains chronological errors and many of the fables are NOT to be taken literally.


That is simply your oppinion. Quit stating your oppinion as fact!

 
black 2017-01-12 09:18:18 

In reply to Ayenmol

How can nothing come from something? Where did the space, or Space itself come from? Where did the energy that caused the big bang come from? If man is the most evolved why is the Gorilla from which he evolved so mucb stronger? Why is it that they are all still here as fully formed beings?


I went to the Dallas zoo a few years back and witness Chimpanzees in their man made habitat, I was just amazed at the speed in which those animals moved through the trees, if humans attempted that, someone would get hurt.

As far as strength, humans reply more on brains than brawn.

Genetic evidence has shown that humans are related to primates.

How can nothing come from something? Where did the space, or Space itself come from? Where did the energy that caused the big bang come from?


How can you pose that question to me and not yourself? We know for sure, one theory does not add up.

Then there are those who claim the Bible plagiarizes other stories...Then evolution plagiarizes Creation! Because Creation was believed first, and many of the teachings of evolution follows the same pattern as Creation.


Evolution is rooted in science, the same science that came later and proved many things wrong, including many passages in the bible.

 
Tryangle 2017-01-12 09:20:24 

Around 1999 or so I was chatting with an older man and the topic of Genesis came up (he was an SDA). I asked him if he thought the 7 days was to be taken literally or not (eg was each day really representing a period of time that could vary from thousands of years to even greater, because of things like carbon dating). He responded that it was really 7 days, and things like carbon dating do not take into account the effects of sin, as if sin itself was accellerating things like fossilization. I don't know if that theory posted to me is similar to modern day Creationism, and I suppose it's a relatively easy-out for those who subscribe to a literal seven-day creation belief and wish to debunk scientific belief that the world and universe is many, many years older.

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-12 09:26:18 

Some things I must add:

1. The Bible clearly states that A DAY IN THE EYES OF THE LORD IS LIKE A THOUSAND YEARS...anyone with any open mind would understand time in the eyes of a powerful immortal spirit would be far different in outlook between a mortal being limited to around 100 years.

2. It is almost impossible for a person skeptical about GOD to understand that Bible. The Bible is filled with God's revelations, his feelings towards us,what he resents, what he loves, his intentions and even his disappointments

3.It is a complete waste of time trying to scientifically rationalise a Supreme Being who speaks and things come to be. The laws of nature and science are created by HIM AND THEY BOW TO HIM.The fact that GOD can/by way of his Son raise the dead to life is one proof of this.

 
bravos 2017-01-12 09:28:09 

In reply to Ayenmol

That is simply your opinion. Quit stating your opinion as fact!


It is also his opinion that pigs don't fly.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 09:35:13 

In reply to black

Evolution is rooted in science, the same science that came later and proved many things wrong, including many passages in the bible.


And Creation is rooted in history. So? Just about every Scientific belief was first rooted in theory. Then they set about experimenting to prove the theory. When a theory cannot be proven then new theories emerge.
Where is the proof of evolution? All the test that has been done on the very chimpanzees you mention, why have they yet to teach one and have it pass that onto it's offspring genetically?

No matter how much they teach the mothers the offspring are born with the same capacity as the mother was born with!

But those are not broadcast are they? And why is it that man relies on his Brain and not his might?
Would having both not be ideal? Where is it written that the two are exclusive? Both male and female Chimps can leap. Both male and female Gorillas are remarkably strong...same as male and female humans!

It is all constant! Why? Where are the abnormalities than chaos creates? Or is it the work of a designer?

You know like the creator of Apple products have a consistent theme as do those of Microsoft. Or GM and Ford. Or any number of painters...their works carry over with it certain distint patterns...which is what we see in our Universe. Each planet does not have it's own laws does it? Nor does each Galaxy? They may be different in look and even purpose but why have they not all evolved into separate entities governdd by separate laws?

 
black 2017-01-12 09:38:06 

In reply to analyst-kid

Most of this discussion is focused on the Earth, what about the Universe? God created the Universe within that 7 day window also?

Remember, there are billions of planets and stars out there. Doesn't that give credence to the impossibility of creation by a being?

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 09:40:43 

In reply to bravos

It is also his opinion that pigs don't fly


Cute...but thats a fact! So why not stick to that which are analgamous to the issues rather than using wit in an attempt to marry apples to oranges?

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 09:44:06 

In reply to black

Most of this discussion is focused on the Earth, what about the Universe? God created the Universe within that 7 day window also?


We already discussed that....nowhere in the Bible does it even discuss the Creation of the Earth. Rather the Creation of man and making the Earth habitable.

But persons like yourself will never agree to that because it is what you rely on to make your case!

Show us where the Bible discusses the formation of the Universe....

The Bible refers to Jesus as God's Son. It also calls himm the firstborn of all creation! But no where in the Bible does it tell us when Jesus was Created! Or the Angels! So if everything was created in the "days" mentioned in Genesis, where do they fit?

 
black 2017-01-12 09:46:07 

In reply to analyst-kid

Look guys, the Earth is a MASSIVE physical structure, it is not something you can wish and make happen. Stop watching reruns of "I dream of Genie".

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 09:49:46 

In reply to black

it is not something you can wish and make happen. Stop watching reruns of "I dream of Genie


Yet you believe it happened in a big "Bang"! Talk about genie....? Pouf!

And am still waiting for you to show me where the Bible says that the Universe or even the Galaxy was formed in the Creative "Days"!

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-12 09:55:25 

In reply to black

And what makes you feel that the time it 'makes happen" will be a twenty four hour day or immediately? Stop basing your beliefs of God around human fiction like the same "I Dream of Genie!

Even that you have examples of in the Bible.

 
black 2017-01-12 09:58:19 

In reply to Ayenmol

Where was God getting his materials to construct these planets? Heaven Depot?

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 10:01:09 

In reply to Tryangle

Around 1999 or so I was chatting with an older man and the topic of Genesis came up (he was an SDA). I asked him if he thought the 7 days was to be taken literally or not (eg was each day really representing a period of time that could vary from thousands of years to even greater, because of things like carbon dating). He responded that it was really 7 days


It would not be the first thing that the Adventist were wrong anout...not surprising since they depend on it as their foundation to observe the Sabbath!
How can you claim the seventh day is in fact a day of rest for eternity, if there is no actual physical 6 days of Creation?

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-12 10:01:40 

We have many examples in the Bible where God said things and they did not happen immediately but they did happen and WILL happen.
1.He said in Genesis 3.15 that an offspring of the woman will crush the serpents head…the serpents head represented eternal death…..Christ appeared later..five thousand years and more later with the ultimate sacrifice his life for ALL to live again….the eminent defeat of death!
2.He said Babylon would fall and its city would NEVER be inhabited again, a haven for jackals and other such creatures…..it happened years after.
3. He said they will be a resurrection of the dead and subsequent….once he said it ..it HAS to happen and it WILL happen

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-12 10:03:07 

In reply to black

Where was God getting his materials to construct these planets? Heaven Depot?


Why are you trying to humanise the Supreme Creator...in other words trying to define and understand him by our terms and understanding?

You are wasting time.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 10:05:10 

In reply to black

Where was God getting his materials to construct these planets? Heaven Depot?


Go answer the question i posed to you...or are you the only one worthy of asking questions?

It has been proven over and over...you want to convince people of your surety of your belief by asking foolish questions, while proposing a theory for which you cannot defend!

Yet it is those with Faith that are misled. You who have no answer should be allowed to roam free as the enlightened?

Then you ask a STUPID question like above!

Where did the Big "BANG" get the materials? Big "BANG" Depot?
Where did this mystical energy come from?

Where did the Space in which it operated come from?

 
bravos 2017-01-12 10:05:26 

In reply to black


Where was God getting his materials to construct these planets? Heaven Depot?


For he rubbed some sweat in his hands and called it dirt,and with that dirt the Earth was born.

Ramen.

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-12 10:05:31 

they are things around us we can't understand how they originated and why they continue to function....The Sun and the Moon for example along with the Earth and you are trying to understand the Creator of these planets!

 
black 2017-01-12 10:07:20 

In reply to analyst-kid

We have many examples in the Bible where God said things and they did not happen immediately but they did happen and WILL happen.


You've hit the nail on the head. That is why the bible lacks credibility, it is filled with general terms and predictions that anyone can make.

I predict that there will be wars across the planet (in different countries) for the next 5 years.

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-12 10:09:38 

One thing I must concede here….if you are trying to assess and analyse GOD by human understanding and reasoning, then the Bible and revelations about God will seem like a fairy tale book of fantastic stories!

 
bravos 2017-01-12 10:15:14 

In reply to analyst-kid

How fantastic that the authors of the fantastic storybook scorn my mother,wife,daughter etc. That's fantastic to you,in any perspective much less a godly one that is inexcusable,we do not wish to be part of such a cult with it's ignorant backward and bloody beliefs.

 
black 2017-01-12 10:15:52 

In reply to analyst-kid

One thing I must concede here….if you are trying to assess and analyse GOD by human understanding and reasoning, then the Bible and revelations about God will seem like a fairy tale book of fantastic stories!


You are correct, only God and Noah can fit thousands of animal species in a little boat.

 
bravos 2017-01-12 10:16:57 

In reply to black

Could've been millions ..

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 10:16:59 

In reply to bravos

I have already disproved this foolish reasonning you onetrick pony!

Find another drum to bang!

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-12 10:18:02 

Bring the examples in the Bible where you find mother, daughter and wife scorned and I will clarify ALL FOR YOU!

 
black 2017-01-12 10:22:44 

In reply to analyst-kid

Bring the examples in the Bible where you find mother, daughter and wife scorned and I will clarify ALL FOR YOU!


Lets start with the Midget, is it a Midget's fault that he or she is short?

Why are they shaming Mudgets?

 
bravos 2017-01-12 10:25:34 

In reply to Ayenmol

Pal it's just light entertainment dealing with you,how can one properly reason with an adult with the rationale of a 6 year old.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 10:25:36 

In reply to black

Answer one question before you ask a million other foolish ones to try and have your silly name attached to a thread that goes on infinitely.

That is all that is important to you!

 
black 2017-01-12 10:27:36 

In reply to bravos

Pal it's just light entertainment dealing with you,how can one properly reason with an adult with the rationale of a 6 year old.
lol lol lol

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 10:27:41 

In reply to bravos

Only a 6 yr old drums up the same junk thst has been properly reasonned on as a stumbling block to reason then calls it entertaining....Everytime i see your name Bart Simpson persona comes to mind..particularly, his responses to Lisa!

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-12 10:32:20 

In reply to Ayenmol

Answer one question before you ask a million other foolish ones to try and have your silly name attached to a thread that goes on infinitely.

That is all that is important to you!


Trick question. Which event will occur first? The death of this thread or the return of Jesus Christ Superstar to save the living and the dead?

Your eternal salvation rests on your answer. Chose wisely. lol

 
black 2017-01-12 10:34:42 

In reply to SnoopDog

lol lol lol

Yuh killing me.

 
bravos 2017-01-12 10:36:15 

In reply to Ayenmol

Only a 6 yr old drums up the same junk thst has been properly reasonned on as a stumbling block to reason then calls it entertaining....Everytime i see your name Bart Simpson persona comes to mind..particularly, his responses to Lisa


Coming from 'Mr Smithers' that's a compliment ,oh how you savor the thought of your impotent man made deity eternally roasting me according to the even more revealing and deeply depraved 'new testament' ,where now the ownership of your soul enters the discussion,the earthly blood alone wasn't enough.

"We are so depraved that we need this punishment to be effective even after they have died,so they can now suffer eternally ....muhahahahahahahaha"!!!!

Wheel padna..

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 10:38:44 

In reply to SnoopDog

Jesus! Why?

1) He has already returned!

2) The basis for this thread, outside of the fact it is an egotistical exercise for one of the three musketeers, will continue till the Great Day of God the Almighty to Vindicate his name, this putting an end to Satan and all those who continue to claim they are the masters of their abode!

May Jehovah have mercy on us all!

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 10:43:04 

In reply to bravos

Get a clue dude...that teaching existed way before the Bible and is not taught in the Bible.

Keep basing your hate for God on teachings that do not originate with him! Or cannot be defended in his Word!

Always a coup to see how you can claim the things the Bible is lauded for are stolen from other civilizations but credit the ideas that started with Pagans as belonging to the Bible!

 
black 2017-01-12 10:43:45 

In reply to bravos

Dem Christian boys waan start a physical fight.

Dem caan win with reason and facts, so they want fight. lol lol lol

 
bravos 2017-01-12 10:44:38 

In reply to Ayenmol

"God ,satan and the three musketeers"

Now that would fit perfectly in the fiction aisle .

Your best perspective thus far,there's hope for you after all.

 
bravos 2017-01-12 10:45:32 

In reply to black

And yet your thread of evil reasoning persists! twisted

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 10:56:09 

In reply to black

Dem Christian boys waan start a physical fight.


Yes, on the internet. More wit without reason. Just words of the foolish based on nothing.

If anything these threads continue to highlight that you all are filled with questions and no answers.

The very doubts you rause of Creation is magnified 100 times over when viewed through the prism of evolution!

Also that you all have no earthly idea of what the Bible teaches but continue to form reasonnings based on false teachings.

So no matter how many smiley faces you post, your many questions and no answers highlight the gap that exist in your lives.

That one would claim that he welcomes death so as not to believe in his Creator shows how you all have convinced yourself for the sake of your own sanity! That someone would dare argue that man would rather die than live, is the epitome of denial and insanity!

 
Kay 2017-01-12 11:05:07 

In reply to Ayenmol

I can raise any number of questions regarding evolution that not one of them could answer...like the fact that Science itself has shown that the very organisms which they claim were the beginning of life that evolved were themselves complex fully developed lifeforms.

See if you can understand these discussions and look for the answers to your questions.....

Evidence for macroevolution

 
black 2017-01-12 11:08:51 

In reply to Ayenmol

That someone would dare argue that man would rather die than live, is the epitome of denial and insanity!


Ready or not, it's going to happen. I know of no one that has escaped it, if you're not dead now, you will be later.

I can say with 100% certainty that I am going to die. Can you say with 100% certainty that you will go to Heaven?

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 11:09:57 

In reply to Kay

Theory and thesis....all i kept reading is: this is evidence and am yet to see evidence just more theory....or maybe you do not know the difference!

A perfect example of the emerging thought that you dont know because yoh are not smart enough to understand.

Similar to to the Religious argument that only the priest could know while people were burned to the stake for owning a Bible!

A shift in the mechanics of power and eliticism! If it is such a fact, why are they trying to convince other Scientist who do not believe?

There are any number of Scientist who see the same info anc point to life having a designer...dso keep searching for these works ov theory!

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 11:27:01 

In reply to black

I can say with 100 percent certainty that it will rain, or snow, or ice, that does not mean am happy about it...but you are the ones who claim we evolved...so, why cant we evolve to living forever?

The Bible tells us why we die...does Science? In fact they are baffled by the fact that wd die?

Why, just as they cannot understand Creation, they cannot justify why the cells that are built to rejuvenate themselves only do so for so long.

Why? Is it only Creation then that is a Scientific conundrum? Or is it also death?

But like you said you know that you will die!

Quit asking questions on the hope the Bible gives...all what yoh know is based on falsehood!
I know for a certainty that i will NOT be going to Heaven!

 
black 2017-01-12 11:42:06 

In reply to Ayenmol

I can say with 100 percent certainty that it will rain, or snow, or ice, that does not mean am happy about it


Happy or not is irrelevant. Your mood is not going to stop it from happening.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 11:58:00 

In reply to black

Nor is your belief that there is no Creator going to stop what is!

You have no definite answer! Science has no definite answer. The Old Book, the Bible provides answers. A book written so long ago continues to change lives today!

Those who know it and understand it continue to live wonderful peaceful lives.

The Bible is not a book of Science, but Science has nog disproved the Bible. There are many reasons to believe the Bible the least of which is Science. Yet no one can say look! a definite mistake made by the simple men who wrote rhis book. All the barbs thrown are based on misunderstanding or just plain malicious lies!

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-12 12:04:43 

You are correct, only God and Noah can fit thousands of animal species in a little boat.


Even in this area, the Bible answers all the questions!

Were all the races of humans all on the ARK with Noah? NO! The Bible shows that after leaving the Ark, the different races came from Noah's sons and the Bible gives apt descriptions!

Why can't you believe it was the same with the animals? Different species came from one pair of dogs, bears, cats, panthers, horses, lions etc?

Remember and I quote:

And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

the same way God used faithful Noah and his family to create a new generation of humans...he did it also with select pairs of animals!

 
black 2017-01-12 12:05:08 

In reply to Ayenmol

You have no definite answer! Science has no definite answer. The Old Book, the Bible provides answers. A book written so long ago continues to change lives today!


The good book has no answers either. The why membership in the church continues to decline.


The Bible is not a book of Science, but Science has nog disproved the Bible. There are many reasons to believe the Bible the least of which is Science. Yet no one can say look! a definite mistake made by the simple men who wrote rhis book. All the barbs thrown are based on misunderstanding or just plain malicious lies!


These are not simple mistakes, they are huge holes.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 12:07:24 

In reply to black

Interesting that all the points raised you went back to the least important, the points raised on everyday things...why no argument on Science's inability to explain something that they themselves claim the Body is built to withstand?

Everyone acknowledges that the past is important, but the future more so! Yey they spend more time trying to tell us how we came to be but cannot begin to address the elephant in the room!

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 12:09:07 

In reply to black

There are no mistakes and no holes! Or maybe even your reading comprehesion is off! Or you see what you want to see!

Show me the hole! Show me the mistake!

You are yet to do that! Not once! Last i saw you claimed a man cannot breathe in a whale!

Wow...a baby cannot 'breathe' in the belly of it's mother either...but it is called the miracle of birth!

Btw explain that! How did the Brain or big bang decide to separate male from female to procreate?

 
Kay 2017-01-12 12:42:50 

In reply to Ayenmol

Theory and thesis....all i kept reading is: this is evidence and am yet to see evidence just more theory....or maybe you do not know the difference!

Yeah ... you took all of four minutes to read the entire article and then made an assumption. I guess the level of the syntax in the first few paragraphs was beyond your level of comprehension or it does not suit your argument so you just find a label.....

 
black 2017-01-12 12:49:35 

In reply to Ayenmol

You JW folks need to work out the differences you have with Catholics, Mormons, Baptist, and Methodists first before arguing with us. How come you are not all on the same page? Could it be that you changed things to suit your own needs?

 
bravos 2017-01-12 12:53:44 

In reply to black

Bingo !!! Another example of how man influenced and man-centric the whole thing is.

 
bravos 2017-01-12 12:54:09 

In reply to black

Bingo !!! Another example of how man influenced and man-centric the whole thing is.

 
black 2017-01-12 13:00:52 

In reply to bravos

For he rubbed some sweat in his hands and called it dirt,and with that dirt the Earth was born.

Ramen.


lol lol lol

 
black 2017-01-12 13:07:23 

In reply to analyst-kid

By the way, you have not answered my Midget question yet.

 
black 2017-01-12 13:22:31 

In reply to Ayenmol

By the way, you do know that you JW folks are treated like second class citizens in Christian circles right?

 
Prako 2017-01-12 13:39:43 

Pelon,

Since I went to sleep and come back this thread graduate by 4 pages lol

Rewinding to where we left off:

We were talking about the consecutive nature of the creation days. Moses doesn't explicitly say the evening of one day is just before the morning of the following one under question. He narrates "morning came and evening came. The next day."

E.g. I am visiting my grandmother and when I leave I say "the next day we meet, it will be even better."

Does the next day mean tomorrow? Or some other time where there are days in between. It could mean both even though there isn't any clarification.

Does next means the very next day or the next milestone event? That is the main debate if you're looking at individual events. There is also the bigger picture where elements were created and there was a flow down of Jewish genealogy from Adam to what is summarized in the 1st paragraph of the New Testament (Matthew).

But if God decided to conduct His events in 7 consecutive days or over a period of time, what is the main issue you are seeing? Is it a micro level or the big picture issue?

 
np 2017-01-12 13:45:30 

In reply to black, bravos, pelon, snoop and others not mentioned

It is clearly, and I have known it for years now, and I'm sure you all do too --- there is a futile battle to get religious fanatics to understand that there are folks WHO REJECT religious norms, bible bullshit stories, and godism.
And that there are folks who are happy living our simple lives not complicated with wishful thought of being redeemed to a non-place called heaven. And that those so inclined really don't have any worry of any consequences after death etc etc.

I ensure that when i depart my family are OK and they do understand without doubt my position. To this point none of my kids are church goers. If they believe in god i dont know and dont care - we have better things to discuss about life and living.


But I'm busy with work and travel related to work ... continue the good works brothers!!

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-12 14:23:15 

In reply to np

It is clearly, and I have known it for years now, and I'm sure you all do too --- there is a futile battle to get religious fanatics to understand that there are folks WHO REJECT religious norms, bible bullshit stories, and godism.
And that there are folks who are happy living our simple lives not complicated with wishful thought of being redeemed to a non-place called heaven. And that those so inclined really don't have any worry of any consequences after death etc etc.


Bah Humbug! Science is a liberal conspiracy! twisted evil

 
bravos 2017-01-12 15:38:56 

In reply to Ayenmol

In reply to bravos

It is also his opinion that pigs don't fly


Cute...but thats a fact! So why not stick to that which are analgamous to the issues rather than using wit in an attempt to marry apples to oranges?


I'm just soooo cute today aren't I ?

It is your beliefs that have tried to sell us unlikely marriages,marriages such as the half horse half man proposition,unlikely marriages such as all species of animals fitting in a wooden boat smaller than the smallest live stock vessels of today.

Unlikely marriages such as the witchcraft of casting out sin laden pigs into the sea,do pigs only fly if your misguided learnings say so?

Mad marriages such as the incest of Adam and eves children,lot and his children,Noah and his children,is this the morality we need today?

Marriages such as lucifer the angel now lucifer the double agent.

Black magic marriages such as talkng snakes,sure give the snake a bad name,it has been innately gross to the majority of people,how convenient .

Wicked marriages such as lot offering his virgin daughters to rapists and plunderers,marriages where said plunderers wanted to have their way with gods Angels ,how twisted and sick can these unlikely and depraved marriages be!

The same logic that you have applied to rationalizing and accepting that pigs don't fly is the same logic and reasoning myself,black,np,pelon,snoop,Kay et al used in maintaining our positions, the only difference is our whole existence well being and relevance isn't invested in it.

We have chosen to go the way of thinking and logic that gave us the ability to have this conversation via these new advanced streams and media.

Had mankind not taken off the blinders we would've been still living primitively,it is in new scope vision and perspective that greatness is achieved,and anyone who keeps saying the bible and Jesus is the answer has nothing to offer and only seeks self empowerment to the extent they have blindly bought into an idea that promises them not only eternal life but also vicarious redemption,a very irresistible idea to people who only sees progress as self empowerment,the obnoxious and entitled nature of the whole idea reeks of man balls,nothing humble or graceful about that,not to mention all the blood and human sacrifice.

The marriages are indeed absurd and defy the basic laws of reasoning.


Which Jesus sect are you from again?

 
pelon 2017-01-12 15:43:40 

In reply to Prako

what is the main issue you are seeing? Is it a micro level or the big picture issue?

That on the "day 6" which marks the beginning of MAN AND ANIMAL on earth including the sun and solar system as it is now.... and if that is so (based on the bible) in Genesis 5, you get the number of years Adam to Christ to Now is and it is less than 7000 years.

It is impossible even for you to think the earth is only 7000 years.

The conversation is strictly focused on two facts.

1. Man and beast appeared on the final day of "work" - as day 7 was rest.
2. By day 6, the bible says the sun and the universe was "set".

THEREFORE: the sun cycle of 24hrs was in play on day 6.

Do you agree or disagree?

 
bravos 2017-01-12 16:32:09 

In reply to pelon

Pal stick to burning bushes and sin infused swine,not hard logic,you go keeeeel dem!!!

They would quicker accept a flying pig possibly under some satanic spell than to accept that this is the end of that particular argument regarding 'days'.

It is easier to say some black magic words and cast away even possibly a flying sin laden pig than it is to get a blind sheep to take responsibility for its thoughts .

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-12 18:07:44 

In reply to black

By the way, you do know that you JW folks are treated like second class citizens in Christian circles right?


Yes. We are quite proud not to be associated with ghe mess.

 
black 2017-01-12 19:42:08 

In reply to Ayenmol

And now the devil.

Why would a creature of superior intelligence dedicate his life to doing evil?

Are you sure this is not a tactic to scare weak hearted people like you?

Why did God allow him to become so powerful?

Why would and angel go Rouge? God's word not strong enough to keep him believing?

 
black 2017-01-12 20:14:11 

In reply to analyst-kid

One thing I must concede here….if you are trying to assess and analyse GOD by human understanding and reasoning, then the Bible and revelations about God will seem like a fairy tale book of fantastic stories!


Isn't that a good reason to remain foolish?

It is beyond your comprehension but yet you accept it as fact.

 
np 2017-01-12 20:22:21 

In reply to black

The Analyst needs to inform us as to what other reasoning and understanding except human ... should we use...
we are not snakes, rats, monkeys, chimps ... etc etc

 
black 2017-01-12 20:28:48 

In reply to np

The Analyst needs to inform us as to what other reasoning and understanding except human ... should we use...


It makes no sense. lol

 
Prako 2017-01-12 21:20:42 

In reply to pelon

But Pelon, didn't we already say the (heavens and) earth were created on the 1st day? And then for the 1st 4 days there was no sun so the first 4 days would be a very long period?

 
Norm 2017-01-12 21:55:12 

In reply to pelon
Do you have a point about this creation timing discussion?
If your point is that it is inconsistent with current science then I don't think anyone will disagree. To conclude, however, that this particular narrative is a lie because of that would be to assume that current science itself is perfect. Aren't you being just as dogmatic as those Bible believers you criticize?
In any case, how long does it take galaxies to 'form'? Didn't the entire universe form in an instant called the Big Bang - according to current science? Why then would it be impossible for the Earth to be transformed from 'without form' to the life-sustaining Garden in a short period of time?
It all hinges on what exactly was the period called a 'day' in that narrative.
In the end, though, your implied argument that an inconsistency with current science invalidates the rest of the Bible would also invalidate current science - which is known to be based on incorrect assumtions.
Of course, I 'believe' in science, but I also believe that most of the Bible will proven to be consistent with science ultimately, with the 'wrong' parts being the result of language deficiencies, translation errors and occasional human fallacy by the Bible authors.

 
black 2017-01-12 22:02:47 

In reply to Norm

How did the big fella come about? He created himself?

 
Norm 2017-01-12 22:27:47 

In reply to black
You and a few others here have no understanding of the Bible. You proved that unequivocally at least once. Yet you think you are in a position to pass judgement on its contents. That is known as blind criticism.
At the same time, you accuse those perceived as Bible believers as showing blind faith. Do you really expect a 'discussion' between blind faith and blind criticism to go anywhere, or do you simply derive sadistic pleasure from attacking something you consider 'foreign' to you?
It must be the latter, because your 'discussion' is going nowhere otherwise.
Pelon at least attempts genuine discussion and reasoning - on the basis of his understanding of science, but you (and a few others here) merely cough up convenient material from the Internet.
You simply cannot think on your own, without your Internet crutch. No wonder you have to resort to incestuous high-giving of each other!
I have no problem with someone not believing in the Bible ( or science), in whole or part, but to criticize blindly is a waste of time and could lead to hate-mongering.
I am all for discussing, the sharing of views and even commiserating, but that does not seem to be the intent here.
This is nothing but a 'F*** Christianity' thread.

 
pelon 2017-01-12 22:37:51 

In reply to Prako

But Pelon, didn't we already say the (heavens and) earth were created on the 1st day? And then for the 1st 4 days there was no sun so the first 4 days would be a very long period?


Let me type this slowly:

I will use your argument; day 1 - 5 could be any amount of years. It had no animals no man... so to your "point" the first 4 days *could* be 1 trillion years... no prob bro.

But here is the point:

To you and Norm that get tricky with "how long a day was"
AFTER THE SOLAR system was in place, with the sun and celestial bodies in place... (Day 5 onward) it is impossible to say a day was not 24hrs...

THAT IS TO SAY, that when "Adam was made" and the animals where "created" on day 6... the solar system was AS IT IS TODAY... so says the bible...

HOW CAN dinosaurs only appear on the day man was created and that day 6 onward the earth was on a 24hr cycle around the sun... a the kicker...god made adam and dinosaurs the same day: 7000 years ago....

IMPOSSIBLE.

For your biblical scholarship: How do we arrive at <7000 years? Genesis 5 onward.

YOU CANNOT SAY Day 6 was longer than 24hrs... because the sun was in place...

CASE CLOSE>>>> Dinosaurs died for your salvation from mythology.... smile Ironic as it sounds


Side note: If the bible had said the dinosaurs came before the solar system was set like say day 4.... then pelon would have NO argument. HOWEVER it is very very very clear what the bible claims: that "god created man and animal on day 6".....and that sun... that sun is undeniable as a marker of a 24hr day!

Side Note 2: The bible says that from the time Adam (and the animal kingdom) appeared on earth to now is less than 7000 years. See Genesis 5.

 
black 2017-01-12 22:59:45 

In reply to Norm

You are totally wrong about that, I respect your beliefs, even though I think is is silly. I understand human nature and the need to believe in something. Even if it gets you nowhere, you will have some solace in believing that there is a better life elsewhere. For me, I see it as a waste of time and effort to go blindly into something.

I see death a final, where the body rots and becomes worm food, nothing else. How the spirit is going to lift itself and find its way to heaven is like fairytale to me. The only purpose we serve on this planet is to keep the species going through reproduction. It is a hard but logical fact that we are not going to live forever but the planet would be overpopulated, if that was the case.

In the end, it is your choice to make and whatever you choose to do is your business. I would like to think that there is a heaven for you and all believers but I do not wish to be a part of it.

 
Norm 2017-01-12 23:13:20 

In reply to pelon
You are right about the Bible indicating that the Earth was created in less than 7000 years, assuming each creation day was the same length as those today. In fairness, we have to assume that is what the Bible meant.
Again, no reasonable person would deny that the Bible creation story cannot be supported by current science. Generalizing the rest of the Bible, and the existence of a god on that basis, is illogical and a personal choice.

 
Norm 2017-01-12 23:16:45 

In reply to black
We will see about your respect for the beliefs of others.

 
bravos 2017-01-12 23:57:02 

In reply to Norm

When 'personal choice' determines the existence of a god or not the whole thing becomes much clearer. I'm happy that you can find peace and purpose in ancient literature written by men,that in itself is an endorsement of our position.

The only difference is that we see it for what it is and you see it for what man intended it to be seen as,the same man you trivialize,this whole thing is so ironic and unfortunate.

It's almost as if your whole existence is conflicted,you can never be free once you whole life is based on a book,you always wanting,you always have to refer to the book and the answers are outdated and irrelevant,you are then limited and left behind .

 
bravos 2017-01-13 00:19:05 

Let me close with the following scenario for the believers .

If there were to be a be a great flood,albeit local and the only people equipped to rescue you ask that you renounce your beliefs and get rescued or maintain your beliefs and drown,what would you do?

I believe you'll say anything not to drown,it's all an exercise in self preservation subconsciously or not,case in point you'll say anything to save your life in a given scenario and in this scenario and according to the much touted new testament your soul is now up for the taking but you can be 'saved',saved from what ?

Saved from God,only God wants to burn people eternally and creates the scenario to be saved,why don't he just leave us alone didn't he give us 'free will'?So do you really think his torture methods are graceful and gracious or are you just scared and this is simply an exercise in self preservation?

Anyway I don't have that problem because I don't buy the scenario anymore,I stay away from low lying areas,they make you end up having to grasp at straws .

 
Norm 2017-01-13 00:25:34 

In reply to bravos
Man, you're still up? smile

Like it or not, we live in a world with religions, gods, holy books and the like - and they play a very important part in the lives of billions. So, I think being informed about them helps us to live better with others.

I'm happy that you can find peace and purpose in ancient literature


I am very impressed that you and black keep asserting this to me in various forms, despite me telling you that that is not so, and that I am a man of science (I think you have plenty proof of that here already). I would be happy to discuss science with you any time!

Am I to think that your are not listening to me, about me? That you consider an understanding of the Bible to be the same as "you whole life is based on a book"?

I am struggling with these three assertions below. Can you shed more light on them, please?

The only difference is that we see it for what it is and you see it for what man intended it to be seen as,the same man you trivialize

 
Norm 2017-01-13 00:53:02 

In reply to bravos

why don't he just leave us alone didn't he give us 'free will'?

The folks on your side of this discussion alluded to this before, asserting that the God in the Bible lets people suffer, and is therefore uncaring, and thus the Bible was unworthy of any respect from anyone. So, which way should we have it?

If someone said, however, that the world today would have been no different had the Bible never existed, I wouldn't argue much with that. Men would have simply found an equivalent. In other words, religion is, in my opinion, just part of our social evolution - following the "hypothesis, antithesis, thesis" path that philosophers talk about.

Again, if we accept the theory of evolution then we must accept the strong possibility that creatures far more powerful than us have already evolved. That, in turn, makes some scenarios described in the Bible quite possible.

 
Avatar 2017-01-13 06:35:00 

No question, the work of the Holy Spirit is crucial to our walk with the Lord. Again, we might not be able to see Him work, but we can see the effect of His work in our lives and in the lives of others.

If your life has been changed through faith in Jesus, it has been changed only through the work of the Holy Spirit in it. "While the wind is itself invisible, it produces effects that are seen and felt. So the work of the Spirit upon the soul will reveal itself in every act of him who has felt its saving power. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the heart, it transforms the life. Sinful thoughts are put away, evil deeds are renounced; love, humility, and peace take the place of anger, envy, and strife. Joy takes the place of sadness, and the countenance reflects the light of heaven." - Ellen G. White, The Desire of Ages, p. 173.

These are wonderful promises, and an untold number of lives have shown just how real they are. But the work of the Holy Spirit is not instantaneous. We don't automatically become the kind of people we ought to be. A life of faith and submission to the Lord is a life of struggle, of surrender, and of repentance when we fail. The Holy Spirit is the Divine Agent that works in our lives to make us new creatures in Christ. This is, though, the work of a lifetime. Though our faults and weaknesses should spur us onto a greater surrender to our Lord, we must not let the devil use them to discourage us in our Christian life, which he is always eager to do. When taunted by our sins, we must always remember the death of Jesus on behalf of sinners. It's precisely because we are what we are, sinners in need of grace, that Jesus died for us and gives us that grace.

 
black 2017-01-13 08:44:19 

In reply to Avatar

No question, the work of the Holy Spirit is crucial to our walk with the Lord. Again, we might not be able to see Him work, but we can see the effect of His work in our lives and in the lives of others.

If your life has been changed through faith in Jesus, it has been changed only through the work of the Holy Spirit in it. "While the wind is itself invisible, it produces effects that are seen and felt. So the work of the Spirit upon the soul will reveal itself in every act of him who has felt its saving power. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the heart, it transforms the life. Sinful thoughts are put away, evil deeds are renounced; love, humility, and peace take the place of anger, envy, and strife. Joy takes the place of sadness, and the countenance reflects the light of heaven." - Ellen G. White, The Desire of Ages, p. 173.

These are wonderful promises, and an untold number of lives have shown just how real they are. But the work of the Holy Spirit is not instantaneous. We don't automatically become the kind of people we ought to be. A life of faith and submission to the Lord is a life of struggle, of surrender, and of repentance when we fail. The Holy Spirit is the Divine Agent that works in our lives to make us new creatures in Christ. This is, though, the work of a lifetime. Though our faults and weaknesses should spur us onto a greater surrender to our Lord, we must not let the devil use them to discourage us in our Christian life, which he is always eager to do. When taunted by our sins, we must always remember the death of Jesus on behalf of sinners. It's precisely because we are what we are, sinners in need of grace, that Jesus died for us and gives us that grace.


This is all subjective stuff, you don't see his work but yet you are willing to give him credit. How do you know it's the work of the Lord that made you successful and not your own hard work? If you went to church 7 days a week but did nothing to improve yourself, would your life be better? I know what your response is going to be, "God help those that help themselves". But, what about the disadvantaged person or child that cannot help themselves?

How are you so quick and willing to give credit to someone else and not yourself? You could be right about this but what if you are wrong?

Some of the most successful people in this world are not believers in God. Yes, I know, you are preparing yourself for something beyond this life but where are the guarantees? Would you invest so heavily in a product, without guarantee or warranty?

 
bravos 2017-01-13 08:53:25 

In reply to black

Oh dear ..didn't he read any of the last 17 pages?

 
bravos 2017-01-13 09:04:15 

In reply to Norm

A pink unicorn is also possible,also allah's winged horse..anything is possible but only a few are probable ..

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-13 09:05:31 

I see death a final, where the body rots and becomes worm food, nothing else. How the spirit is going to lift itself and find its way to heaven is like fairytale to me


Despite what np bravos and black say....you cannot apply human understanding to the ways of Jehovah, His Son or the Holy Spirit. You must be spiritually aware and have faith and belief.

Death seems insurmountable to us whilst to GOD it is beneath HIM and easily reversed and destroyed. In fact HIS WILL is that Death be totally destroyed.

 
black 2017-01-13 09:24:47 

In reply to analyst-kid

Death be totally destroyed.


Is that like "saving the survivors?".

This is totally against what we know to be true on earth, everything dies to make way for the new.

Where are all these people going to go?

 
black 2017-01-13 09:38:13 

In reply to analyst-kid

To be honest, I enjoy the wickedness, a nice pum pum, cold beer/shot of liquor, party, etc.

I am not willing to blow someone up (Quran) for my pum pum though.

Talk about contradiction!

 
bravos 2017-01-13 09:51:38 

In reply to black

Only religion can take ordinary folk and turn them into killers..

Followed by mental illness ...

 
pelon 2017-01-13 10:04:47 

Pack up the dominoes. This thread is now complete.

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-13 10:15:43 

Where are all these people going to go?



God created this earth for humans to live in it. Nothing is impossible for him...but can you believe that?

Incidentally when God saw mankind building the Tower of Babel, a literal skyscraper reaching to the sky...he told his son....let us confuse his language ..because if united there is nothing will be impossible for they to do....study that

Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward,[a] they found a plain in Shinar[b] and settled there.

Genesis CHAP 11

[b]3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel[c]—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.
[/b]

 
bravos 2017-01-13 10:24:38 

In reply to pelon

In closing I would like to say this proposal before us can be viewed as a protection racket or more pricesly an attempted protection racket depending on how far each individual wants to take it.

Because the more I look the more I realize it is only the god of the New Testament we should be terrified of and need 'protection' from,a proposition so vindictive and wicked that it blackmails us with the well being of our souls after death,a celestial protection racket that would not stop at only breaking your legs but burn you alive eternally.

This is the evil wickedness progressive enterprising beings must believe in order to be 'saved'. Saved from what?

Pfft..

 
black 2017-01-13 10:26:29 

In reply to analyst-kid

I don't think you guys realize that most of the stuff, talked about in the bible are outdated, including products, transportation, punishment, etc.

Why won't Jesus return, to update and inspire a new generation?

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-13 10:31:27 

In reply to pelon

NEW YORK—An emergency coalition of deities from several major world religions is still sorting through the wreckage of a tragic bus accident that claimed 67 lives Friday in the culturally diverse Jackson Heights neighborhood of Queens.

According to authorities, at approximately 6:45 p.m. the Q45 bus crashed into a power generator at a busy street corner after swerving to avoid a slow-moving group of elderly Chinese pedestrians. Police say that a Korean laundry, an Irish pub, a Senegalese restaurant, and a churro stand were also severely damaged in the resultant smoke and flames.

More than half a dozen gods reportedly responded to the scene within moments of the crash. Because the victims hailed from 14 countries and professed an as-yet-undetermined number of religious faiths, however, the soul-placement process has been laborious, and fewer than a third of the deceased have so far been escorted to their appropriate afterlives.

"What a mess this is," said Ganesha, the Hindu lord of success and obstacles. "Assuming we ever manage to figure out who worships our particular pantheon, there's still the problem of divvying up the Buddhists, Jains, and other non-Hindus who worship me, Lakshmi, Vishnu, and about 1,000 other gods."

In the gods' haste to resolve the matter, some of the souls were apparently misplaced. In one instance, an adherent of Buddhism slated to be reborn into an Ohio family was temporarily reincarnated as a tree sloth. And as of press time, a self-avowed atheist who at the last minute took God into his heart has yet to be retrieved from the void and placed among the faithful.

Many of the gods were struggling just to maintain order.

"Honestly, who ever heard of a Jew named Shinjoku Murikami?" the Shinto sun goddess Amaterasu said. "I had that guy halfway to haunting a shrine as a kami spirit before I realized my mistake."

The religious triage suffered severe setbacks from the beginning because many gods serve a relatively low number of devotees and are unaccustomed to rapid response.

"The moment we saw that there was someone named Hawkwind, we knew we'd be there for a while," said the Sikh god, Waheguru who explained that, due to a verbal agreement struck several millennia ago, no deity is allowed to leave until all souls have been claimed. "On top of that, it took the Wiccan goddess of the Moon, Earth, and Sea three full days to show up."

One god, who asked that His name not be spoken aloud, said the theological muddle was a rarity, and that He and the other deities usually have no trouble operating without an official post-disaster protocol.

"We don't normally have to deal with these kinds of details," the god said. "If there's a rocket attack in the Middle East, it's pretty easy to figure out who goes in to mop up."

Further complicating matters is the presence of the devil, Beelzebub, who has demanded that the coalition relinquish all souls to him.

"These are all vile, vile sinners, and I'm not leaving until I get them," the dark lord said, though other gods appeared unreceptive. "Look, my numbers have been way down this month. I'm sure everyone here did something damning at some point, right? Come on."

Several lesser-known gods, such as Jengu, an archaic water deity still worshipped by some of the Sawa people in Africa, arrived on the scene despite having no devotees among the dead. Jengu said he knew there was a "really good Cameroonian place" in the neighborhood and assumed that he might be needed.

"I guess not," the minor god said. "I'll probably hang out anyway, though, just in case."

While the aftermath has been generally chaotic, the most inconvenienced deity appeared to be the God of Abraham, who is worshipped by billions of Muslims, Jews, and Christians.

"Ideally, I'd just take all of them in one pile, but there are about a thousand little sects and denominations and all that nonsense that I have to act like I care about," God/Yahweh/Allah said. "Did you know there was a guy who practiced Santeria on that bus? Christ, what a nightmare."

The deities were all unanimous in agreeing that the sole Catholic fatality should be condemned to forever roam the Earth as an anguished, wretched ghost, as Catholicism is the only truly false religion and has no god to accept its faithful when they die.lol



Various Deities Still Sorting Through Victims Of Tragic Queens Bus Accident.

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-13 10:35:10 

In reply to black

GOD ALONG with being an all powerful Supreme being has a contingent of powerful angels literal super heroes at his command.

DO you feel these advancements primarily dependent on fossil fuels for production and transportation means something to him? How do you know mankind has not achieved thses standards before?

A drawing from an ancient civilisation on a cave wall shows a man on a motorcyle like machine going thru the air....

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-13 10:39:28 

In reply to analyst-kid

GOD ALONG with being an all powerful Supreme being has a contingent of powerful angels literal super heroes at his command.

Go Pink Ranger! big grin

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-13 10:41:47 

In reply to black

Why won't Jesus return, to update and inspire a new generation?


And bone a few Mary Magdalene wannabes. big grin

 
analyst-kid 2017-01-13 10:47:37 

In reply to SnoopDog

Interesting you put this...the Bible says all these stories of fiction and super beings stem from that period prior to the flood.

 
bravos 2017-01-13 10:49:28 

In reply to black

Why won't Jesus return, to update and inspire a new generation?


I asked similar a few pages back,don't expect to get a straight answer for these guys. "Man can never understand" what affects man and man alone..

They have been duped but too arrogant and invested to turn back now,they would prefer the world end and they die to see if they would still make it over,it's all about selfishness ,self centredness ,self empowerment ,false entitlement etc.

How arrogant of a species a chromosome away from the chimp to claim that the creator of a never ending and complicated multiverse cares about their petty geopolitical squabbles and desire some relationship with them,that's arrogant self centred man at his finest and its so easy to lap up because man can't resist the idea that he's the subject of attention and favor.


I wish these people realize that they are just mammals and related to all other earth creatures and have no favor over them other than our own enterprising ways hard work and ability to adapt ,ability to adapt and seek patterns and rationale are our greatest assets as a species and religion in today's world is one of our major barriers in realizing our full potential as a species .

 
black 2017-01-13 10:56:26 

In reply to bravos


I wish these people realize that they are just mammals and related to all other earth creatures and have no favor over them other than our own enterprising ways hard work and ability to adapt ,ability to adapt is our biggest asset as a species .


And, all the fancy houses and cars mean nothing, all we are here for, is to keep the species going, just like other animals. We would like to think that we are special but we are not.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-13 10:58:40 

In reply to analyst-kid

Interesting you put this...the Bible says all these stories of fiction and super beings stem from that period prior to the flood.


Is that what you said to yourself when you masturbated to the Pink Ranger? big grin

It's cool, I won't judge you Bro. lol

 
bravos 2017-01-13 13:35:03 

In reply to SnoopDog

Pity the human that is forbidden to pleasure themseve's .

Bravos 13:01

 
bravos 2017-01-13 13:37:09 

In reply to black

Correk...one space fart or solar flare and welcome to population 0.

It's your time now insects and other underdwellers!!

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-13 13:39:12 

In reply to bravos

Listen Bro, every red blooded teenager jacked off to the Pink Ranger during the 90s. I don't care how they explained it to their imaginary gods afterwards, but they did the deed. big grin

 
black 2017-01-13 13:42:50 

In reply to bravos

Pity the human that is forbidden to pleasure themselve .

Bravos 13:01



lol lol lol

Guilty as charged

 
Avatar 2017-01-13 22:50:55 

Some men try so hard to prove
That God's not really real
While others say they know for sure
His love you cannot feel
But I know He is real within my soul
For one day He cleansed and He made me whole
And Jesus is still the answer
For that longing deep in your soul


Jesus is still the answer
And though time and ages roll
Jesus is still the answer
He's the answer for your soul
And though some may say
That He doesn't fit with their philosophy
I know Jesus is still the answer
He's always been and always will be



Some men pretend that things of this world
Have brought them peace of mind
But with the dawn of each new day
New thrills they try to find
Not until they meet the Prince of Peace
Can they ever hope to find relief
For Jesus is still the answer
For a world that seeking for peace

 
black 2017-01-14 07:25:45 

In reply to Avatar

Don't stop believing my friend.

 
Maispwi 2017-01-15 19:46:33 

After almost 500 posts are we any closer to a resolution?

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-15 19:49:58 

In reply to Maispwi

Mathew 7:

13 “Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.

 
WestDem 2017-01-15 21:12:48 

Thank god for Hinduism! This thread really prove what our god's true religion ? Christianity was always a money making religion and thanks to allyuh fuh de confirmation!

 
Dan_De_Lyan 2017-01-15 21:40:32 

"get thee behind me satan" is that a homosexual reference?

 
black 2017-01-15 21:48:20 

In reply to Dan_De_Lyan

The devil is in the details. lol lol lol

 
birdseye 2017-01-15 22:24:25 

Michael Che of Saturday Night Live made the observation that Jesus was a carpenter by trade – yet there is no sample of his work to be found – no piece of furniture that he made – no house that he help build – nothing-------- I thought that was an interesting observation------ for someone as famous as Jesus – somebody should be able to show something that such a famous carpenter had a hand in fashioning ------ did he make the cross he died on?....dont know if you needed to be a trained craftsman to build that cross --- if the image I have seen is the real deal

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-15 22:54:03 

In reply to birdseye

Hmmm....The Son of God came to Earth to give his life as a propitiatory sacrifice so that you can approach God directly and gain forgiveness for your sins, with the prospect of everlasting life in view, and you are looking for souvenirs?

Christ did not come to Earth to show off his physical prowess!

It is obvious that there are those who seem to think that God should just show himself. But the Bible has ample evidence, in fact Creation itself provides ample evidence. Those who do not want to believe, won't! Those who are disposed to serving God are overflowing with the joys of truth!

Christians walk by faith, not by sight!

Romans 1:

18 For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, 19 because what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. 20 For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.


John 2:
18 Therefore, in response the Jews said to him: “What sign can you show us, since you are doing these things?” 19 Jesus replied to them: “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said: “This temple was built in 46 years, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was talking about the temple of his body. 22 When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples recalled that he used to say this, and they believed the scripture and what Jesus had spoken.


The signs are there... you asking is tantamount to a homeless man asking the best paying employer to bring proof to him that his business is profitable before he will aply for a job!

 
black 2017-01-15 23:11:21 

In reply to Ayenmol

God directly and gain forgiveness for your sins, with the prospect of everlasting life in view, and you are looking for souvenirs?


Could fetch a decent price at Sothebys

 
bravos 2017-01-15 23:20:19 

In reply to Ayenmol

They really got you..probably one of the worse cases I've seen,you believe all that fuh true?

 
bravos 2017-01-15 23:21:47 

In reply to birdseye

Great thought provoking stuff,thought and logic don't go too well with these folks,expect no real answer..expect something 'greater' than furniture or woodwork!

 
birdseye 2017-01-16 06:07:43 

In reply to Ayenmol

you asking is tantamount to a homeless man asking the best paying employer to bring proof to him that his business is profitable before he will aply for a job!

Not sure that is a great Metaphor – Bavarian Motor Works don’t ask me to have faith that they build great cars – I can take an m4 and do a test drive – can speak to the engineers, etc., etc.

 
Kay 2017-01-16 11:30:15 

In reply to black

Those who are disposed to serving God are overflowing with the joys of truth!

I know a lot of Christian bible thumpers who give generously to the church and are not really overflowing with joy when they cannot put enough food on the table for the family... sad

 
black 2017-01-16 11:33:50 

In reply to Kay

True, and this 10% tithe is total BS. People should give, based on what they can afford.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-16 14:58:12 

In reply to black

True, and this 10% tithe is total BS. People should give, based on what they can afford.


If you're gullible enough to believe there is a celestial dictator in the sky who intercedes in your everyday life, knows what you're thinking, can convict you of thought crimes, cares about what you eat, who you have sex with, what you wear etc. then you're gullible enough to give everything you have to con men cum charlatans who peddle easy answers found in a book containing stories of bronze aged goat herders.

 
black 2017-01-16 15:07:24 

In reply to SnoopDog

One Pastor went as far as saying that people who don't tithe are thieves.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-16 15:15:52 

In reply to black

One Pastor went as far as saying that people who don't tithe are thieves.


I can't blame the pastor. He could have called the members of his congregation any number of names and they would probably be appropriate. People who don't think for themselves are deserving of this type of disrespect and deserving to be fleeced every Sunday. You're asking a con man every Sunday to talk about some mumbo jumbo and wave his magic hand to expel all the problems in your life instead of doing something about it yourself.

I have zero sympathy for people who get fleeced by churches much less mega churches and millionaire pastors.

 
black 2017-01-16 15:34:11 

In reply to SnoopDog

I have zero sympathy for people who get fleeced by churches much less mega churches and millionaire pastors
.

I don't have a problem with these guys making a decent living but to get rich off this stuff is wrong. There's always someone in need of help, if someone is getting rich off of religion, they are making a conscious decision not to help someone.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-16 15:40:56 

In reply to black

I understand your view Bro. But those pastors aren't putting guns to the heads of their congregation members.

If you blindly give your hard earn money to a sweet talking charlatan every Sunday then that is your choice. That some of them get extremely wealthy (because they operate on a larger scale) is just a by product of being able to successfully peddle nonsense to ignorant people and earning a living doing it.

 
black 2017-01-16 15:53:24 

In reply to SnoopDog

I agree, but I am talking about the poor, aren't they in the business of helping the poor?


This is a good example of people (mega churches) interpreting the bible to suit themselves. They have to justify their riches, so they promise riches in return for other people's donation.

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-16 16:01:55 

In reply to black

I agree, but I am talking about the poor, aren't they in the business of helping the poor?

This is a good example of people (mega churches) interpreting the bible to suit themselves. They have to justify their riches, so they promise riches in return for other people's donation.


"Helping the poor" is part of the big con. You are correct in that most people who donate to churches and televangelists are low income earners. They are unsurprisingly the people who are facing real problems in life like unemployment, extreme illnesses, extreme debt etc. The churches and millionaire pastors prey on these people.

They prey on the fact that these people are hopeless and need to hear there is a miracle to their problems just around the corner. But god is always seemingly short of cash. So just put your hand to the screen, pray with me, send a donation of $100 to my Ministry and let's see if god answers your prayers. If he didn't, repeat the previous steps and pray a little harder.

 
Ayenmol 2017-01-16 17:48:10 

In reply to birdseye

Bavarian Motor Works don’t ask me to have faith that they build great cars – I can take an m4 and do a test drive – can speak to the engineers, etc., etc.


Yes, but you never ask Bavarian MotorWorks to prove their spirituality before you buy....it is irrelevant!

 
np 2017-01-16 17:54:52 

In reply to SnoopDog

They prey on the fact that these people are hopeless and need to hear there is a miracle to their problems just around the corner. But god is always seemingly short of cash. So just put your hand to the screen, pray with me, send a donation of $100 to my Ministry and let's see if god answers your prayers. If he didn't, repeat the previous steps and pray a little harder.


Those who get milked by these charlatans based on "false promises" are stupid and misled by thieves.

 
black 2017-01-16 18:45:27 

In reply to np

Those who get milked by these charlatans based on "false promises" are stupid and misled by thieves.


Best business in town, those fakers are tax exempt.

 
bravos 2017-01-16 20:58:57 

In reply to Ayenmol

The signs are there... you asking is tantamount to a homeless man asking the best paying employer to bring proof to him that his business is profitable before he will aply for a job!


How dare you liken it to a human situation just like that,how convenient but not at all surprising, you guys great at playing shift the goal post.

Can't beat allyuh..ain't joining you though,so much for that outdated saying also..

 
SnoopDog 2017-01-17 10:43:58 

In reply to np

Those who get milked by these charlatans based on "false promises" are stupid and misled by thieves.


Religion = Selling the invisible product which cures all your ailments and answers all your questions without actually doing any of that. It's the ultimate con. cool