I heard Colin Croft say this during the ODI telecast a few days ago. Did he ever explain why or how he came to that conclusion? I think Croft and Garner debuted for the West Indies at the same time.
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Joel Garner is the best WI fast bowler ever?
2014-08-22 12:36:27
2014-08-22 12:47:23
In reply to Walco
tremendous bowler but Macko Andy and Mikey ahead of him
2014-08-22 12:50:39
Only two bowlers ahead of Garner:
Marshall and Ambrose.
Best regards to all!
@RMc@
2014-08-22 12:53:07
In reply to SpudsMcKenzie and bravo
2014-08-22 12:55:44
In reply to Walco
I think Croft and Garner debuted for the West Indies at the same time.
Spot on.
Croft and Garner debuted in 1977 after destroying a Mustaq Mohammed led Pakistan in a warm up match (led by Kalicharran i think) in st.Lucia. Although the first test was drawn they combined to take 13 wickets.
In my opinion that was one of the strongest Pakistni sides, boasting players like Majid and Imran Khan, Haroon Rashid, Miandad, Sarfraz Nawaz.
btw Lloyd scored 157 in that test. WI went on to win the series 2/1
2014-08-22 13:33:44
In reply to Walco
Best ODI fast bowler. Yes.
2014-08-22 13:35:59
In reply to Commie
Agreed!!
2014-08-22 13:44:24
In reply to Commie
correct
@RMc@
2014-08-22 13:46:02
In reply to Commie
3rd de motion
2014-08-22 14:17:25
In reply to Commie
The other commentator in the booth asked Croft for clarification regarding ODIs and Tests. Croft said Garner was the best in both. Not an opinion I have heard before.
2014-08-22 14:20:24
In reply to Babylon
Mikey was my favorite fast bowler. I would put him, marshall and ambrose ahead of Garner in Tests. Garner had some incredible career stats though.
2014-08-22 14:45:32
I think Croft is being modest and plugging for his partner, a deadly combination mind you. I think they played only 8 series together.
After 3 test series Croft took 58 wkts @ 21.10, Garner comes in second with 52 wkts @ 22.77
Can you imagine Croft (33) and Garner (25) took 55 wkts in their first series (5 tests) against Pakistan.
2014-08-22 14:57:32
In reply to Walco
Yep Ambrose is up there too. In Mikey book him say him put Andy rite up there wid Maco.
2014-08-22 15:09:10
The Garner era surrounded by Croft Roberts and Holding and the Ambrose era surrounded by Marshall,Bishop and Walsh are TWO different eras.
Faced with a powerful Oz and Pak team...they resorted to very intimidating bowling to dislodge these tough batsmen of the 1970s-1980s.
The difference between Garner and Ambrose is whereas Ambrose utilized lift and accuracy to dismiss batsmen, Garner used lift and accuracy to threaten their safety AND dismiss them.
Laird, Wood,the Chappell brothers,Kim Hughes,Border and Marsh were ALL TOUGH BATSMEN! It took real intimidatory bowling to shake them up...in WI case they had four fastbowlers of that type!
2014-08-22 15:12:30
I remember a test series here when Garner sent home Wood and Wessels back to OZ with broken fingers...stats will not show that just as stats will not show how lethal ROY GILCHRIST or SYLVESTER CLARKE was!
2014-08-22 15:17:35
In reply to analyst-kid
Roy Gilchrist??
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....KYS. How many test wickets he even has??
Steeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeuuuupppsssssssssssssssss..................
@RMc@
2014-08-22 15:17:37
In reply to Babylon for the sake of discussion, if you place Andy is the mix, would you now have to throw in olde Wes who numbers are equal to Andy's who did not had an partner until Charlie came.
2014-08-22 15:19:33
In reply to SpudsMcKenzie
agreed, more myth than substance
2014-08-22 16:44:35
I understand my point was dented by mentioning Gilchrist...but my point of stats not representing the total truth still stands when the players are close in achievements.
2014-08-22 17:41:33
Listen carefully. It's Malcolm Marshall, Curtly Ambrose, then everyone else in whatever order you wish. Let's end this Garner nonsense please.
_r
2014-08-22 19:38:03
no WI pace attack can be picked without Andy Roberts!
2014-08-22 19:39:58
In reply to Admin
Garner is the best ODI fast bowler probably of all time.
keep up.
A lesson
To capture that change in the analyses here, the stats for each bowler are assessed against the overall numbers during the period in which he played. During the period in which Joel Garner played his 98 matches, for instance, the overall bowling average was 29.60, and the economy rate was four runs per over. Even against those benchmarks, though, Garner was terrific, averaging less than 19 runs per wicket at a stunning economy rate of 3.09. Multiplying the bowling average and the runs conceded per ball, his bowling index was 9.70, while the overall index during that period was 19.73. Dividing one by the other, it emerges that Garner's index was twice as good as that of the average bowler during the period in which he played.
Even compared to the other great bowlers who played during that era - and there were several - Garner was far ahead of the rest of pack. His height was an obvious advantage, and his unerring accuracy meant that the batsmen had to take all the risks to get him away for runs. Richard Hadlee is next among bowlers of that era, though his ratio is a fair bit lower than that of Garner. Four other top-class bowlers follow them in the table, which isn't much of a surprise, but what is mildly surprising is that Malcolm Marshall's bowling average in ODIs was only 26.96. The norm is for bowlers to have a lower average in ODIs than in Tests, for it's easier to get cheap wickets when batsmen are going for quick runs, but Marshall bucked that trend - his Test average of 20.94 was more than six runs fewer than his ODI one.
Even compared to the other great bowlers who played during that era - and there were several - Garner was far ahead of the rest of pack. His height was an obvious advantage, and his unerring accuracy meant that the batsmen had to take all the risks to get him away for runs. Richard Hadlee is next among bowlers of that era, though his ratio is a fair bit lower than that of Garner. Four other top-class bowlers follow them in the table, which isn't much of a surprise, but what is mildly surprising is that Malcolm Marshall's bowling average in ODIs was only 26.96. The norm is for bowlers to have a lower average in ODIs than in Tests, for it's easier to get cheap wickets when batsmen are going for quick runs, but Marshall bucked that trend - his Test average of 20.94 was more than six runs fewer than his ODI one.
2014-08-22 20:08:15
In reply to Commie
I might concede that. But that's not the discussion.
_r
2014-08-22 20:09:35
In reply to Admin
I think Walco missed the context of the discussion. I suspect it was about ODi cricket which would make sense. Garner is pretty much lauded as the greatest ODi fast bowler of alltime.
2014-08-22 20:14:48
In reply to Commie
I was watching the broadcast. I heard Crofty say "ever", as in ever. He didn't segment.
_r
PS: I just get really aggravated that Maco never gets his due in these discussions. Remember that WI Jubilee thing?
2014-08-22 20:18:29
would be interesting to see Garner in action in this time where batsmen are much more inventive, aggressive, and pitches tend to be a bit more in the batsman's favour.
Average team run rates in Garner's time were lower than today's run rates in both Test and ODI
2014-08-22 20:20:10
In reply to imusic
You can say that for everyone. It makes it very difficult to compare players in different eras with rule changes, expanded cricket calendars, better athletes, technical innovations, etc. I personally think Steve Waugh's team was better than Clive Lloyd's, but that's just me.
_r
2014-08-22 20:30:46
In reply to imusic
How many bowlers like Garner are there in world cricket ?
This is an era where Morne Morkel, who is no Garner...averages 23 per wicket in ODI.
I think you overrate these current players who in general are pretty shit against fast bowling.
Mitchel Johnson isnt half as dangerous as Garner was.
2014-08-22 22:12:51
In reply to Discourse
In my opinion that was one of the strongest Pakistni sides, boasting players like Majid and Imran Khan, Haroon Rashid, Miandad, Sarfraz Nawaz.
How could you exclude/forget Wasim Raja? One of my all time favorite Pakistani bats.
2014-08-22 22:24:55
In reply to Commie
Mitchel Johnson isnt half as dangerous as Garner was.
lol
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