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HEADLINE: Lloyd wants Windies players to be loyal
CaribbeanCricket.com
2014-09-16 07:55:16
Kingston, Jamaica - New chairman of the West Indies selection panel, Clive Lloyd, believes loyalty should be the order of the day as players contemplate decisions to either represent the West Indies against England or play in the Indian Premier League (IPL) next April.
The West Indies, currently ranked eighth in the International Cricket Council (ICC) Test rankings, are scheduled to face world number three England in a three-match Test series beginning on April 9 and ending May 5, 2015.
read the full article at windescricket
Full Story
bobby
2014-09-16 08:33:19
In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com
Just one question. Who was LLOYD loyal to when he turned his back on West Indies cricket, in the middle of a series, to take Packer's money?
Pot calling kettle black.
Now at the time, I agreed with Lloyd and his players the same way I agree with the players of today for looking out for their future financial security.
When your employers are the crooks of the WICB and your fans are the insular West Indians, the players have nothing to which to be loyal.
Look at the way our players are cursed here on a daily basis and CC.com is very representative of the West Indies fans.
Chrissy
2014-09-16 08:42:31
Walco
2014-09-16 08:44:05
In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com
Square peg meet round hole.
Walco
2014-09-16 08:47:24
In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com
And why do the players have a choice? Aren't they contractually obligated to put West Indies first? What about the NOC requirement? Has that been abandoned by the ICC?
Cheeks
2014-09-16 09:22:40
In reply to bobby
But isn't that what kids tell parents?? Don't parents try to prevent their kids making the same 'mistakes' that they did??
If I smoked crack in my teens...it means I can't tell young ones...or people in general not to do it???
Maybe the experience of Lloyd has taught him that the personal fulfilment derived..from commitment to team over dollars is a better place than chasing the money...I dunno...kinda like how Spuds prefers life in di Mudland ovah di Big Stage.
Chrissy
2014-09-16 09:27:10
In reply to Cheeks
This is not smoking crack. This is maximizing global employment options just like the vast majority of posters on this website who live and work outside of our region.
They are overseas for income opportunities.
As I have asked a gazillion times, why is loyalty only expected from our sportsmen and women - in reality the disloyalty of our trained tertiary level citizens (doctors, teachers, engineers, scientists, teachers, technicians etc.) is way more consequential.
Commie
2014-09-16 09:30:25
In reply to Chrissy
You are mixing apples and oranges.
Do not take a retainer !
Its simple. I cannot believe how many times this simple detail is glossed over and ignored.
imusic
2014-09-16 09:31:02
In reply to Cheeks
[
But isn't that what kids tell parents?? Don't parents try to prevent their kids making the same 'mistakes' that they did??
So you think Lloyd believes what he did back then was a mistake?
Would be interesting to hear his response to the question "if you had to do it all over again regarding the packer dispute, what would you do?"
StumpCam
2014-09-16 09:31:14
In reply to Chrissy
WI of Packer era were a winning group who were vastly underpaid compared to the losers and whiners of today who is all about the $$$$ and little else!!
Commie
2014-09-16 09:33:50
In reply to imusic
Was Lloyd pulling a salary under a retainer contract for WI ?
Or was he not as was the norm simply not getting paid when they played.
Drapsey
2014-09-16 09:35:53
In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com
The other day I saw a picture of the Big Pu$$y handing out the West Indies cap to Leon Johnson. Man was dressed in a double-breasted suit. Repeat, dressed in a suit and a double-breasted one at that.
What's so alluring about being dressed in a double-breasted suit one might ask? Well, it illustrates the era of thinking of the so adorned.
The Big Pu$$y is outdated.
imusic
2014-09-16 09:36:01
In reply to Commie
If he was referring to the retainer contract, he would have said "honor the contract"
Instead he said the players should be loyal.
FOCUS
Commie
2014-09-16 09:39:16
In reply to imusic
Lloyd is not as sentimental as that.
I referred to Lloyds time with WI in the past. I remember before the 97 Pak tour there was a seminar / camp for the players. Lara, Hooper, Ambi...all missed the seminar. Only the younger players went.
Lloyd didnt say a peep. Why ? Because the players were owed money by the WICB. The seniors said fcuck it and didnt turn up.
He understood that and didnt talk about loyalty.
Now...he knows these guys are getting paid. Hence when Lloyd talks about Loyalty...he knows what it is being linked to.
camos
2014-09-16 09:41:41
In reply to Commie
why does the retainer contract gives players the option of playing IPL,don't know of another employment contract that gives that option.I think WICB allows it because they recover some of the cost of the retainer from IPL.
StumpCam
2014-09-16 09:42:40
Admin
2014-09-16 09:43:15
In reply to Commie
Do not take a retainer !
Its simple. I cannot believe how many times this simple detail is glossed over and ignored.
Nonsense. All these players are honoring the terms of the retainer contracts.
_r
Admin
2014-09-16 09:44:41
My take are that there players are VERY LOYAL. To themselves and their families. That's the right type of loyalty.
_r
Commie
2014-09-16 09:45:51
camos
People here are confrontational on this.
The retainer contract gave them the option because since IPL started the WI recognised that players needed income flexibility. The issue was recognising that even though the retainer was paying LESS than the IPL, that the primary employer is still the WICB.
That is paramount.
The idea that these players have been fighting with the WICb because the WICB doesnt want them playing IPL is a myth. The battle has always been that the WICB is the primary employer and if they need your services, as in the 2009 tour, they should be able to get it.
Admin
2014-09-16 09:48:37
In reply to Commie
if they need your services ... they should be able to get it.
It's easy. Pay for it then.
_r
Commie
2014-09-16 09:49:50
In reply to Admin
WHat terms ?
Look, all these guys have to do is say I am not signing a retainer, and I will make myself available for selection and if you dont pick me, your problem, cause I make more money anyway.
But do they do that ?
Admin
2014-09-16 09:51:18
In reply to Commie
"Here's money sitting around for me but I will turn it down," said no one ever.
_r
Commie
2014-09-16 09:52:32
In reply to Admin
So you signing a binding retainer for 120k US a year with your employer, and you get 1m US for 6 weeks work, and then said employer tells you come back for a team building session at Kapersky...you say no, they fire you.
The question is...why the hell do you have the contract at Kapersky ? You dont give a shit about it really...
The truth is, its insurance.
imusic
2014-09-16 09:54:38
In reply to Admin
You studying commie? Steupes
Admin
2014-09-16 09:54:38
In reply to Commie
First of all, it's Kaspersky. Not Kapersky.
Secondly and more importantly, my Kaspersky employment doesn't apply here.
Players have retainers that ALLOW them to maximize earnings during IPL season, etc. They are honoring those contracts at every step.
_r
Commie
2014-09-16 09:54:38
In reply to Admin
The WICB retainer is great in World Cup years. Its actually as valuable...or even more so than the IPL contract.
Clive Lloyd is now a WICB employee. WHy should he not ask people to be loyal to their contracts ?
think.
Commie
2014-09-16 09:56:00
In reply to Admin
I misspelt it for a reason.
The retainer is built to allow them to maximise earnings and it also treats them as a contracted employee.
WHy do you gloss over that.
Admin
2014-09-16 09:56:14
In reply to Commie
Jesus man, listen carefully to this question: Has any player violated the terms of a retainer contract to go play T20 mercenary cricket? Yes or no?
_r
camos
2014-09-16 09:58:09
In reply to Commie
my other issue is if IPL is being played in an official ICC window, any board cricket during that period is optional!
Elsie
2014-09-16 10:01:16
In reply to bobby and Chrissy
Bobby, I am not sure if you were around during the Packer years. But I will tell you that Lloyd's resignation had nothing to do with the money that packer was offering. It was in support of his players... 'Loyalty'...
The facts back then are as follows....
Thw WICBC, in collusion with the English and Australian Cricket Boards were trying to sabotage the Packer series, which they described as a 'Cricket Circus'.
Players who signed to play with Packer were being targeted and victimized by their local Boards. This was being done even though the Packer game schedule was not conflicting with ICC sanctioned Test Matches.
Australia was due to tour W.I. in 1978, and many of the Aussie star players who had contracts with Packer were dropped by the Aussie selectors. Hence a very weak team traveled to the W.I. with a very old Bobbie Simpson as captain. The only current star on the Aussie team was Jeff Thomson, who at the time did not have a Packer contract.
Of course, the W.I. full strength team won the first two tests very easily.
All of a sudden, the W.I. selectors on orders from Jeff Stollmeyer (WICB President) proceeded to drop players from the team for reasons which had nothing to do with their performance in the first two test matches.
Richards, Murray, and newcomer Dessie haynes were dropped from the team. Co-incidentally,...These were all guys who had signed with Packer.
Lloyd publicly asked the Selectors for an explanation for the non selection of those guys, and when the Selectors (Uncle Joey Carew and Co), could not provide a suitable answer, Lloyd quit the team. A decision which any rational thinking captain would take in my opinion. And some of the other stars quit the team in support of his decision.
So you really cannot compare players signing with Packer to what is happening these days. The reasons for players not turning out for W.I. are totally different.
The Australian Cricked Board was intent on destroying Kerry packer, even though his games were not interfering with Test Cricket schedules...
Commie
2014-09-16 10:01:24
In reply to Admin
How can something as you have said which is built with conditionalities to allow them to play IPL violate itself.
The issue with the retainer has come up..
1. When Gayle grumbled about having to be available for WI in England, publically.
2. When Narine decided to miss the WI training camp vs NZ.
The idea that the US is just some free for all is not true. It is highly contract dependent.
That the BCCI have now made it 'rewarding' for both parties everything seems moot.
Admin
2014-09-16 10:03:27
In reply to Commie
is built with conditionalities to allow them to play IPL
Thank you. Thank you very much.
/thread
_ryan
Commie
2014-09-16 10:04:46
In reply to Admin
Since when that has ever been the issue.
Im not signing any retainer that presupposes I have to be available for a minutae of what really earns me money.
Except...if the economics arent as discussed.
bobby
2014-09-16 10:57:42
In reply to Elsie
If you believe that Lloyd went to Packer over loyalty to players you are naieve. Like all the rest he was dissatisfied with salary, treatment and conditions offered by the WICBandits.
Yes. I was there during Packer and long before.
But with your blind defence of Lloyd, you have opened up another can of worms.
So Lloyd was loyal to his players and NOT to the WICB, his employer, and the West Indian people.
So to whom or to what should the players of today offer their loyalty?
Courtesy
2014-09-16 11:07:15
From the files of the WICB.
...It is WICB’s position that, if a player wishes to play official cricket and to be considered for selection to play for the West Indies, and whether or not he signs a retainer contract, he must expect NOCs to be issued subject to international commitments, in accordance with the rules of the ICC which govern the overseas tournaments in which he wishes to play. WICB does not have the resources to match the amounts of money that players can earn from playing in the IPL and certain other overseas domestic tournaments. WICB's approach is to permit players to play in the IPL and other overseas domestic tournaments wherever possible, subject only to international commitments. This approach, in WICB’s view, has to be adopted for all players ("FTS Players" i.e. first team squad players) who are (or would be regarded as) members of the current first team squad and who purport to make themselves available for selection, and are eligible for selection (or, rather, not ineligible for selection for the foreseeable future), whether they have signed retainer contracts or not. If FTS Players were automatically granted unconditional NOCs for every overseas domestic tournament in which they wished to play, this would, in effect, allow any FTS Player to make himself available for selection for the West Indies only for matches where he could not find a better paid alternative.
WICB believes that asking an FTS Player who requests an NOC to play in an overseas domestic tournament to accept a condition that he makes himself available, if selected, for international commitments which may clash with that tournament, is justifiable. If a player has no contractual obligation to WICB and does not wish to make himself available to play in international matches for which he may be selected, then he has the option of ceasing to be a FTS Player, by retiring from international cricket, or otherwise declaring himself ineligible and/or unavailable for selection for the foreseeable future. In that event, WICB would not consider it necessary or appropriate to issue a player with anything but an unconditional NOC...
BatQuake
2014-09-16 11:12:31
In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com
Lloyd, please tell the players that whomsoever forsakes West Indies cricket will barred indefinitely from playing for the West Indies......especially the contracted players.
West Indies cricket must not remain loyal to uncommitted cricketers.
Sunil Narine in particular does not deserve to be on any West Indies Test team in the near and medium term.
grumpy
2014-09-16 11:21:48
in my opinion, any player on a wi retainer, or contract who refuses to represent wi when reguired, should be immediately suspended and any noc`s conferred on said player recalled, period 
BatQuake
2014-09-16 11:25:34
In reply to grumpy
Agreed.
Elsie
2014-09-16 11:31:16
In reply to bobby
Bobby, I have no problem with current players choosing where to ply their trade.
Life in the Caribbean has changed and people will see the need to make money outside of the region.
I was just trying to set the record straight with regard to the Packer years. I am defending no one in particular...
If the WICB had not sided with the Aussie and English Cricket Boards, and victimize the W.I. players who signed with Packer, There would have been no need for Lloyd and co to quit West Indies cricket.
Yes, they we dissatisfied with salary; and as such they would have played with Packer for the extra income it provided, along with continuing to play for West Indies.
The can of worms was opened by Jeff Stollmeyer, whom as president of WICB, sided with the ACB and ECB to punish players who had signed with Packer.
Packer could have co-existed with Test Cricket, as eventually happened, after the powers that be realized that the test Cricket brand was being diluted.
Each time the ACB, ECB and WICB attempted to undermine Packer, they ended up strengthening his brand and weakening theirs.
You will recall that Tony Greig, Chappell and Lloyd were among the first players to sign with packer. At that time none of them had expressed any interest in quitting Test cricket.
FuzzyWuzzy
2014-09-16 11:44:10
In reply to Elsie
You are absolutely correct in your recall of the events leading to Lloyd's resignation, except it was Richard Austin along with Haynes and. Murray who was dropped.
googley
2014-09-16 11:47:00
since when the WICB reward loyalty?
grumpy
2014-09-16 12:00:36
In reply to googley
never heard of daren Sammy?
bobby
2014-09-16 12:31:00
In reply to Elsie
Twist it and turn it how you like but Lloyd is the last person in the world to talk about loyalty. For what ever the reason you want to spin, the fact is that he turned his back on West Indies cricket and fans, in the middle of a test series, to go to play for money in the Packer circus. That is a fact.
Walco
2014-09-16 12:42:09
In reply to Courtesy
I'm still waiting to find out whether the policy you posted has been abandoned. If not, only contractual loyalty should be necessary.
Elsie
2014-09-16 12:52:47
In reply to bobby
the fact is that he turned his back on West Indies cricket and fans, in the middle of a test series, to go to play for money in the Packer circus. That is a fact.
Not True Bobby.... The final three test matches after Lloyd's resignation were played between March 31, 1978 and May 3, 1978. The 1977-1978 WSC (Packer) games ended on February 13, 1978. This was before the Bobby Simpson led Aussie team arrived in the West Indies.
Try looking at the big picture. You seem to be spinning in a very tight circle. Respect...
Larr Pullo
2014-09-16 13:14:36
In reply to Elsie
Bobby has a problem with black people. Ignore him....
I sorry for the people who he's honorary counsel for...
googley
2014-09-16 13:57:46
In reply to grumpy
never heard of daren Sammy?
that was loyalty rewarded? More like some sort of licking involved/and pushing my country man up front!
Commie
2014-09-16 14:04:24
In reply to Larr Pullo
Is your ppl.
Admin
2014-09-16 14:10:45
In reply to Commie
You are asking for altruism. How can you realistically expect that from cricketers when lawyers, doctors, teachers and people who are much more important don't give it?
Cricketers, especially, have a short earnings window in the Caribbean. And we're not even talking about politics, being dropped wrongfully, etc.
You know better.
_ryan
bobby
2014-09-16 14:12:56
In reply to Elsie
Why don't you check your facts before you chat crap. Lloyd quit after the second Test.
The 3rd Test in Guyana, 4th Test in Trinidad and 5th Test in Jamaica were all captained by Alvin Kallicharran. None of the Packer players including Lloyd were in the team.
googley
2014-09-16 14:17:53
In reply to bobby
The 3rd Test in Guyana, 4th Test in Trinidad and 5th Test in Jamaica were all captained by Alvin Kallicharran. None of the Packer players including Lloyd were in the team.
how was Kalli rewarded for that show of loyalty to "country?"
Commie
2014-09-16 14:19:34
In reply to Admin
Courtesy posted. Straight up and easy to read.
These decisions have to be made everyday. My good buddy, an ENT specialist employed by government, takes leave and goes do consultancy work abroad for extra coin.
When he is ready he will retire from govt and move on.
The idea that you should sign a contract and then complain that it hampers you is after the moment wisdom.
I don't play that game and neither do most of the ppl I know.
Admin
2014-09-16 14:21:41
In reply to Commie
You really need to go read what he posted. And read it carefully because you're struggling badly.
_r
Commie
2014-09-16 14:30:30
In reply to Admin
Padna the argument you making is tosh.
These players do not get any extra pass from me.
There are hundreds of thousands of ppl all over the region who are working hard all their lives and paying taxes. Many of them struggling to make ends meet.
You have a set of ppl in the main who win very little, don't pay taxes in the region, and get paid well. They are part of a small group of lucky people and the risk that surrounds their career is part of that.
Don't sign a retainer if you going bawl when ppl call you and tell you come to camp or there is an emergency and you have to replace another team tour schedule.
Commie
2014-09-16 14:33:54
In reply to Admin
His leave is UNPAID. Else it would be breach.
Larr Pullo
2014-09-16 14:35:34
In reply to Commie
Admin don't get it....I would "retire" all of them. Let the IPL pay you all year round....
Commie
2014-09-16 14:40:07
In reply to Larr Pullo
If those cats were the best at their craft I could understand..but they are not. Far from it.
You refuse to give up 120k us and let another young cat to get selected because you know when wc and wc t20 on...that retainer is worth 5 times that.
Larr Pullo
2014-09-16 14:43:13
In reply to Commie
Narine would never get picked because his priority is BCCI T20. So if that's what he wants, he doesn't get picked. Simples....Same for Gayle, Bravo, Pollard and whoever else want to make BCCI cricket their priority.
bimbo
2014-09-16 14:46:59
In reply to Chrissy
Not to mention some of dem who got tertiary heducation with student loan money run go overseas and renege on their obligation to repay and have the gall to be calling out players seeking to maximize on their talent.
Commie
2014-09-16 14:47:21
In reply to Larr Pullo
Why shouldn't they get picked?
They can get picked without a retainer. That is always there.
Much less money though. So as Admin say why not take the money and then when the moment of contention comes, cry a song for the public consumption and hope the terrible rep of the wicb indicts them one more time.
Larr Pullo
2014-09-16 14:49:18
In reply to Commie
No! Go play for the BCCI. I'm not helping them to make their name in international cricket so that it could help the BCCI build their cricket.
SpudsMcKenzie
2014-09-16 14:49:27
In reply to Chrissy
As I have asked a gazillion times, why is loyalty only expected from our sportsmen and women - in reality the disloyalty of our trained tertiary level citizens (doctors, teachers, engineers, scientists, teachers, technicians etc.) is way more consequential.
BRILLIANT!
tell these mofos here, all living pon the big stage and talking a bunch uh skunt.
Steeeeeeeeeeeuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuppsss.............
@RMc@
Elsie
2014-09-16 14:50:49
In reply to bobby
You are agreeing with me.... no crap here....
You said....
the fact is that he turned his back on West Indies cricket and fans, in the middle of a test series, to go to play for money in the Packer circus. That is a fact.
And I showed that Lloyd retired after the Second test, in the middle of the series, in principle. Not to go and play for Packer. The 1977-1978 Packer Series was already over by then. Go look at the dates I posted above.
The next Packer series began in December of 1978...
Courtesy
2014-09-16 14:50:58
In reply to Commie
...So as Admin say why not take the money and then when the moment of contention comes, cry a song for the public consumption and hope the terrible rep of the wicb indicts them one more time.
camos
2014-09-16 14:53:18
In reply to Commie
You refuse to give up 120k us and let another young cat to get selected because you know when wc and wc t20 on...that retainer is worth 5 times that.
the argument is not so simple WICB net on the players can be positive or negative but is not the contracted amount since IPL pays them for the players!
Commie
2014-09-16 14:57:51
In reply to camos
That is 10 or 15 percent of the auction amount I think.
BCCI paying for flesh.
jacksprat
2014-09-16 15:38:02
A quick question: Didn't Lloyd and his crew "abandon" West Indies cricket, circa '78'79, in pursuit of Packer's lucre, while Kallicharan led a second-string to India/Pakistan?
Why should this generation of cricketers be expected to show the "loyalty" which Lloyd and his ilk never displayed when their priority then was, rightly, securing their and their families' future?
sudden
2014-09-16 16:20:58
In reply to jacksprat
Were Lloyd et al contracted?
jacksprat
2014-09-16 16:30:59
In reply to sudden
I see! So one can only be "loyal" if bound by a contract?
By the way were Gayle, Bravo,et al contracted to the WICB when they were being vilified as 'mercenaries' for pursuing their IPL option?
If contracts are so sacrosanct then why was Gayle being maligned for adhering to the terms of his preexisting IPL which he was expected to disregard in favour of predated the hurriedly arranged tour of England?
And, by the way, if one can only be forced to be 'loyal' to a "country", by virtue of a contrac,t then there is something else!
Commie
2014-09-16 16:33:55
In reply to jacksprat
The whole thread has nuggets to explain everything.
read through it...and then wheel again.
Cuter
2014-09-16 16:37:14
In reply to jacksprat
Dude move on!
Going forward, you sign a contract, when the ppl call you to play, you play.
If not, leave the ppl contract where it is
