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Chris Gayle is a playing legend..a true great

 
Narper 2015-06-28 18:49:57 

THE VERY BEST IN THE GAME TODAY big grin

 
Narper 2015-06-28 18:50:50 

Jamaica Tallawahs won by 10 wickets (with 60 balls remaining

Jamaica Tallawahs 121/0 (RR: 12.10)

CH Gayle 90* (36b 6x4 9x6

It was Gayle show as he bought up his 50th fifty in T20's

 
LBW375 2015-06-28 18:53:43 

In reply to Narper

102 runs away from 8,000 T20 runs

 
Narper 2015-06-28 18:58:45 

In reply to LBW375

Yep

214 matches....210 innings....7,893 runs....HS 175*....ave 44...SR 149.....15x100s and 50x50s

 
powen001 2015-06-28 19:06:15 

In reply to Narper

hats off...hands up in applause.

 
Lenks 2015-06-28 19:06:50 

In reply to Narper

561x6, 617x4

 
WestDem 2015-06-28 19:11:35 

In reply to Narper

De best to ever play T20...he is already a legend! cool

 
Runs 2015-06-28 19:17:40 

Damn

 
Narper 2015-06-28 20:11:15 

Dinanath Ramnarine

@dramnarine

What amazing stats!!!! Unbelievable!!! Well done mate continue to entertain the world. @henrygayle world class!!! twitter.com/record_cricinf…


yeah man big grin

 
Yamfoot 2015-06-29 00:29:02 

Awesome sight once he gets going.

 
Raggs 2015-06-29 03:48:20 

In reply to Narper

Yuh seh Bradman Yuh can seh Lara Yuh bawl out Sobers and Mr Headley and in the same breath Chris Gayle... his legend will grow even bigger than Lara's after retirement with folklore

 
djdrastic 2015-06-29 03:52:54 

Just saw the highlights on the tele today.
Awesome awesome awesome.

 
Trinidave 2015-06-29 13:49:03 

None better at dis game.

 
jacksprat 2015-06-29 15:59:22 

Chris Gayle proves that it is possible to play entertainment cricket without the demeaning minstrel show, and making a fool of himself!

 
Larr Pullo 2015-06-29 16:03:54 

Impressive numbers. Certainly sets the benchmark for a relatively new format of the game. Actually it can be argued that he set the benchmark better than anyone since Bradman for any format of the game.

 
Larr Pullo 2015-06-29 16:05:53 

In reply to jacksprat

How quickly we forget his chicken dancing in a test match that the WI was losing...or the infamous trip to the mound. But then again, you have the brain of a jockstrap so its par for the course.

 
jacksprat 2015-06-29 16:09:52 

In reply to Larr Pullo

Evidently you have no idea of the definition of 'minstrel', but one should be surprised since it has always been clear that you have sh!t for brains! twisted

You must be one of the most stupid piece of crud around! Why would a world class brains-by you own proclamation-and one so erudite spend so much time stalking lowly me?

Despite the recent SCOTUS ruling, I do not flex like that

 
Larr Pullo 2015-06-29 16:12:12 

In reply to jacksprat

Oh and minstrels don't dance? But then you're the definition of a pile of shit! Now eff off!

 
jacksprat 2015-06-29 16:16:55 

In reply to Larr Pullo

You could not dance or brag enough about yourself enough to impress that Jamaica beauty who dismissed you and flushed you like the pile of waste and wannabe you are!

We all know that is the genesis of your anti-Jamaica angst, Miss Lashie!

 
Larr Pullo 2015-06-29 16:20:07 

In reply to jacksprat

You would do well to keep your shit mind off my dick and where it has or hasn't been. You're bordering on being one of those rainbow flag waving queers.

 
sudden 2015-06-29 16:48:45 

In reply to Larr Pullo

I swear when Gayle smiles one sees jockstrap's face.

 
Drapsey 2015-06-29 17:41:12 

Guys, this is a thread to celebrate Gayle and his T20 stature.

Just like he has on numerous past occasions, Gayle will certainly provide the ideal opportunities for cussing him or each other, can't you just wait 'til then?

 
Yamfoot 2015-06-29 18:42:50 

Mek oonu haffi mek this celebratory thread get so? Take it to PM man.

 
powen001 2015-06-29 18:44:37 

In reply to Narper

I just saw the highlights...wow...

Excellent stuff.

Truly....that was dominant.

Glad he wasnt in that mood in Barbados big grin

 
rootsie114 2015-06-29 19:25:42 

In reply to powen001

Remember his last interview before leaving Sommerset ,he said he would deal with Castro in the CPL.So he proving to be a man of his words.

 
powen001 2015-06-29 19:59:00 

In reply to rootsie114

Gayle is a natural leader...and unfortunately as transparent as they come!

Regardless of who he has had a rumble with I have seen one after the other they offer RESPECT to CH Gayle...and I mean from Sir Hilary Beckles, The HHGS ensemble and several fans...all accept that Gayle is a phenomenon that defies all the manuals and experts when it comes to Cricket.

yuh remember- He suppose to have heart issues too? big grin

and he still here- God Blessed yute dat!

When he says it..you know that is exactly how he feels and most importantly..he backs his chat..every time

 
Toney 2015-06-29 21:12:36 

Unno want fi tell mi dat dis Thread is ove a day old and no one has mentioned Gayle vs Vaas yet! wink wink

 
imusic 2015-06-29 21:18:55 

no one just did cool

 
Narper 2015-07-01 11:34:01 

Jamaica Tallawahs won by 7 wickets (with 5 balls remaining)

Another master class innings last night

Cappo leading from the front

CH Gayle* not out 72 (54) 6x4 2x6

 
Jabari18 2015-07-01 11:42:16 

In reply to Narper

Gayle defined the different means and methods of T20 batting. He showed that there is room for settling in, and respecting good balls and bowlers. And he also showed you can also go balls to walls from ball one.

 
Cornfused 2015-07-01 11:49:40 

One of if not the best T20 opener and or batsman in the world

 
Cowcorner 2015-07-01 15:52:25 

Is he really a great since he is really only doing this at the domestic level?

His International stats brings him back to earth.

 
Drapsey 2015-07-01 16:09:02 

In reply to Toney

Unno want fi tell mi dat dis Thread is ove a day old and no one has mentioned Gayle vs Vaas yet!

Maybe dem prefer to remember Gayle vs the Hinglishman who got slapped for 6 fours in a six ball over, all fully timed. Hoggard it was in a career ending spell.

 
Narper 2015-07-01 16:17:03 

In reply to Cowcorner

Is he really a great since he is really only doing this at the domestic level?


Gayle T20I stats......43 innings...3 not outs...HS 117...average 35...13x50 and 1x100..SR 143

Bowling 15 wickets @24 with ER 7 and SR 20

Player Of Match Awards (8 )
Player Of Series Awards (2)


His International stats brings him back to earth


Why don't you identify better international cricketers in the format

 
Cleg 2015-07-01 17:23:32 

In reply to Cowcorner

His International stats brings him back to earth.




rolleyes rolleyes

 
nick2020 2015-07-01 17:50:45 

In reply to Cleg

T20Is 45 43 3 1406 117 35.15 986 142.59 1 13 122 87 12 0


lol lol lol

Earth mussie real high.

 
powen001 2015-07-01 18:26:32 

In reply to Narper

lol lol

I immediately knew he was wrong on the international chat...

 
Cowcorner 2015-07-01 21:20:32 

In reply to Narper


Why don't you identify better international cricketers in the format



Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s
A Symonds (Aus) 2005-2009 14 11 4 337 85* 48.14 199 169.34 0 2 2 33 10 investigate this query
V Kohli (India) 2010-2014 28 26 5 972 78* 46.28 738 131.70 0 9 0 105 20 investigate this query
AJ Finch (Aus) 2011-2014 22 22 3 756 156 39.78 496 152.41 1 5 0 83 32 investigate this query
F du Plessis (SA) 2012-2015 22 22 4 710 119 39.44 515 137.86 1 5 0 67 23 investigate this query
MEK Hussey (Aus) 2005-2012 38 30 11 721 60* 37.94 529 136.29 0 4 1 58 25 investigate this query
KP Pietersen (Eng) 2005-2013 37 36 5 1176 79 37.93 831 141.51 0 7 1 119 32 investigate this query
AD Hales (Eng) 2011-2015 34 34 5 1089 116* 37.55 790 137.84 1 7 3 114 35 investigate this query
Misbah-ul-Haq (Pak) 2007-2012 39 34 13 788 87* 37.52 715 110.20 0 3 2 45 26 investigate this query
JP Duminy (SA) 2007-2015 59 54 16 1406 96* 37.00 1148 122.47 0 7 6 108 44 investigate this query
BB McCullum (NZ) 2005-2015 71 70 10 2140 123 35.66 1571 136.21 2 13 3 199 91 investigate this query
CH Gayle (WI) 2006-2015 45 43 3 1406 117 35.15 986 142.59 1 13 2 122 87 investigate this query


Are those enough names?

 
Narper 2015-07-01 21:38:17 

In reply to Cowcorner

They are NOT better....and only 2 has a better SR than Gayle....and one of the 2 retired 6 years ago


With a few points separating the averages they must all be back to earth eh?

 
powen001 2015-07-01 21:42:15 

In reply to rootsie114

thats the point sah...

I can Trust Gayle everytime to back up his chat.

In other words he is sincere when he says he will do a thing...nuh lotta long talk bout "back to drawing board" lol

 
Narper 2015-07-01 21:42:39 

In reply to powen001

These fellas spout tru de rim of dem ass

big grin

 
Cowcorner 2015-07-01 21:53:53 

In reply to Narper

They are NOT better....and only 2 has a better SR than Gayle....and one of the 2 retired 6 years ago


1st Why aren't they better? Please use stats to support your argument rather than being subjective
2nd if you want to look at strike rate, even sammy has a better strike rate at international level than Gayle
3rd if you are talking about legends and greats being retired doesn't matter. What matters is your body of work in your era.


The point remains that when you look at Gayle stats at international level at T20 you don't see the separation that you see at domestic levels.

 
Narper 2015-07-01 22:04:51 

In reply to Cowcorner

Please use stats to support your argument rather than being subjective


I could....but I doan care to

You got caught when you arbitrarily and ignorantly dismissed Gayle's international stats....now you are just trying to save face

Jus go to cowcorner and chill

 
Cowcorner 2015-07-01 22:20:49 

In reply to Narper



I could....but I doan care to

You got caught when you arbitrarily and ignorantly dismissed Gayle's international stats....now you are just trying to save face


Thank you for not taking the discussion any further.

In addition I was quite aware of Gayle's stats both at international and domestic level and that was the reason I made my initial statements and questions. I was actually surprised when it seems to me that folks were suggesting that a 35 avg at international level could justify Gayle as being great or was enough to avoid questions of his greatness.

 
Lenks 2015-07-01 22:37:11 

In reply to Cowcorner

1st...I don't defend players.

2nd...I don't understand what yuh mean by domestic level.

3rd...What di criteria yuh use to justify players yuh listed might be better?

4th...hope yuh understand that stats in T20 cannot be used as how they are used in tests.

5th...I'm a Yardie so I might be automatically disqualified from this conversation.

6th...Just curious.

7th...

I was actually surprised when it seems to me that folks were suggesting that a 35 avg at international level could justify Gayle as being great or was enough to avoid questions of his greatness.


Bullshit as cow kaka gets...seems like you are saying there are no great T20 players. The separation is right before yuh eyes but yuh blind(ed).

 
JahJah 2015-07-02 08:40:00 

In reply to Cowcorner

2nd if you want to look at strike rate, even sammy has a better strike rate at international level than Gayle


What average does Sammy have to compliment the SR? What's next, A man averaging 5 with an SR of 200 is better than Gayle?

 
Raggs 2015-07-02 09:14:39 

Gayle's legend will grow bigger than nuff West Indies legends who played for us, those in the golden era will be exempt but loads out of that era will sit second to Gayle.

 
Bigzinc 2015-07-02 11:15:34 

In reply to Narper

Gayle is a boss and under appreciated in his own house. Time to do some beating dung. The CPL is a domestic competition with international stars.

Go Onry.

 
Lenks 2015-07-02 12:47:07 

In reply to all

Based on evidence/stats provided by Cowcorner to determine greatness, behold, I present to you, the greatest T20I player of our era...

Kenya's own...Hiren Ashok Varaiya

Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 4s 6s Ct St

25 12 11 51 18* 51.00 81 62.96 0 0 1 0 12 0


A whopping average of 51 compared to Gayle's paltry average of 35.

 
djdrastic 2015-07-02 12:50:14 

In reply to Lenks

Statistics are worthless.
40 percent of all people know that.

 
Lenks 2015-07-02 12:51:32 

In reply to djdrastic

Tell that to Cowcorner...

I was actually surprised when it seems to me that folks were suggesting that a 35 avg at international level could justify Gayle as being great or was enough to avoid questions of his greatness.

 
djdrastic 2015-07-02 12:59:55 

Honestly as a non Windian I am astonished how some of you aren't incredibly proud of Gayle's record in T20s.He is an absolute genius in that format.


Just look at this list and look at the illustrious
names near the top of the list.


Link Text

 
Lenks 2015-07-02 13:05:03 

In reply to djdrastic

Haters will be haters bro'...

Badmind a kill dem.

 
Cleg 2015-07-02 13:59:22 

In reply to djdrastic

Needs 4 (87) more sixes to equal McCullum`s 91

.... with all of 27 games to get them.

Btw,his 2+ yrs ban (at his pk. as well)....make a lot of difference to his stats.

 
Bigzinc 2015-07-02 14:58:57 

In reply to Cleg

Its pure insularity. Gayle does his thing and fact the haters.

 
NineMiles 2015-07-02 17:19:20 

Yep... a legend of Junk Food Cricket !!

 
Cowcorner 2015-07-02 17:26:56 

Ok so stats are no good.

So how do you define a great in T20?

 
rudebway 2015-07-02 17:34:50 

In reply to Bigzinc

i think this is the problem they have with Gayle

Player Team Salary
Player Team Salary
1
MS Dhoni
Chennai Super Kings
$3,000,000
2
Yuvraj Singh
Delhi Daredevils
$2,666,667
3
G Gambhir
Kolkata Knight Riders
$2,400,000
[b]4
CH Gayle
Royal Challengers Bangalore
$2,000,000[/b]
5
RA Jadeja
Chennai Super Kings
$2,000,000
6
RG Sharma
Mumbai Indians
$2,000,000
7
V Kohli
Royal Challengers Bangalore
$1,800,000

 
Lenks 2015-07-02 17:35:51 

In reply to Cowcorner

Ok so stats are no good.

So how do you define a great in T20?


That Kenyan with 51 average...

On a serious note bigman... u have to know how to use stats. U might see nuff posters using stats but they know how to use them to defend their arguments.

I can use same stats u posted for players u say greater than Gayle to prove Gayle greater than dem in T20I format...

There is a thread inna di backroom bout squats...go and learn squat before coming back here posting stats.

 
Courtesy 2015-07-02 17:45:03 

In reply to djdrastic

Statistics are worthless.
40 percent of all people know that.


Only a jackass can make a blanket statement like this.

 
Lenks 2015-07-02 17:47:14 

In reply to Courtesy

Be nice to our guests...

 
Courtesy 2015-07-02 17:50:18 

In reply to Lenks

Be nice to our guests...


Brother, de same way you wanted to give de Spudster 2 box for uttering foolishness (mofo'), is de same way I would give this ass 2 box for making such an asinine statement.

 
Lenks 2015-07-02 17:51:25 

In reply to Courtesy

lolol...

Handle yuh biznis boss...

lololololol......

 
Courtesy 2015-07-02 17:52:38 

In reply to Lenks

lol lol lol

 
Cowcorner 2015-07-02 20:19:28 

In reply to Lenks

I am up for the debate if you are.

On the stats of course I would have seen the Kenyan but to avoid these cases I would have filtered out players with less than 20 innings and less than 100 runs. Basis that filter Gayle international stats puts him in the pack rather then separates him from the pack.

Additionally you can view Gayle's domestic Vs International stats. below

Mat Inns No Runs HS Ave 100 50 100s Avg 50s Avg Not Out Avg
Internationals 45 43 3 1406 117 35.15 1 13 43.00 3.31 14.3
Domestic 215 211 31 7965 175 44.25 15 51 14.07 4.14 6.8

In the domestic level Gayle scores 1 hundred every 14 games on the international scene he scores one every 43 games.
He scores 50s about the same rate for international and domestic games every 3 vs every 4 games respectively.
He is not out every 7 games in domestic cricket but that numbers goes to 14 in international games.

In my view his Stats are domestic level reads like stats of a great. However his international stats have not kept up with his domestic ability, hence my questions re his greatness at international level.

 
Halliwell 2015-07-02 21:20:22 

Kohli making small change
No wonder he driving Gayle around to make end meet
lol

 
nick2020 2015-07-02 21:31:34 

In reply to Courtesy

I think he was joking Courtesy. A punch line used in the internet sphere about stats by making up a random one. Most famously

78% of all statistics are made up.

 
nick2020 2015-07-02 21:44:02 

In reply to Lenks

Lenks,

A statement made is Gayle is the best in T20.

If we compared him to the others in the list Cowcorner made how is he better than say:

Faf? 22 matches. 39.44 average @ 137 SR. 119 HS.
KP? 37 matches. 37.93 average @ 141 SR. 79 HS
Finch. 22 matches. 39.78 average @ 152 SR. 156 HS.
Kohli. 28 matches. 46.28 average @ 131 SR. 78 HS.
Gayle. 45 matches. 35.15 average @ 142 SR. 117 HS.

Kohli loses badly in HS and SR but beats Gayle badly (and the rest of the field) in average. So I can see an argument of Gayle > Kohli.
Faf beats Gayle in average comfortably in average. Edges him in HS. SR is near Gayle.
Finch beats Gayle in all 3 categories.

 
Lenks 2015-07-02 22:25:38 

In reply to nick2020

Nick...u there?

Not T20 boss...T20I.

Not one comparison when it comes to T20.

Cowcorner's argument was about Gayle not being great with a 35 average.

My argument will not be about who is the greatest, as we already know who that is, but to show that Gayle is just as great, if not greater, in T20I than those players he mentioned.

We can't really discount average tho' cause it shows some consistency but not necessarily efficiency.

T20 is all about consistency and efficiency.

 
Lenks 2015-07-03 00:47:09 

In reply to nick2020

If yuh going by averages, T20 is not about not outs...not getting out. Helps yuh average, yes, but that’s all about it. You have a limited amount of balls to score runs and score you must or out trying.

So it’s all about what you do with those limited amount of balls and how consistent and efficient you are in scoring runs...

I not going talk about Symonds...good SR, good average…but 11 at bats with 4 NO and ratio of 5+:1 for innings to 50+ runs don’t cut it for me.

I not going talk bout Hussey cause 30 at bats, 11 NO, Ratio 7+:1 not saying much.

I not going say a word bout Misbah...SR says it all.

Duminy...11 NO, SR not bad but under 130...Ratio 7+:1

Good...so we now leff with Virat, Finch, Faf, KP, Hales, McCullum.


Virat...

Virat has a good SR as anything above 130, to me, is good. Virat has a ratio of 2.88:1 which beats out Gayle except for that ton Gayle has over him. Virat also has 5 NO in 26 innings, Gayle 3 in 43 so no doubt a better average but Gayle has 17 more at bats...so we can account for the average. I cannot guess what going to happen Virat’s next 17 innings and there lies the dilemma when making comparisons without all constants. One important variable can throw it off. Virat scores a 4 or 6 every 5.9 balls faced.

KP...

Almost on par with Gayle with SR and at bats...makes good comparison. Give both the same NO, average and SR would almost be identical. Now, KP has a ratio of 5.14:1. KP hits a 4 or 6 every 5.5 balls faced.

Finch...

Finch has a better SR than Gayle. Higher average. Ratio 3.66:1. Hits a 4 or 6 every 4.31 balls faced. Same 3 NO as Gayle. 21 innings less than Gayle. NOW...this fella is efficient and consistent to date but with 21 innings less than Gayle, here lies the dilemma with consistency to match Gayle’s stats as innings can be a very important variable.

Faf...

Very similar to Finch. 4 NO…Ratio of 3.66:1…4 or 6 every 5.15 balls faced. Same dilemma as Finch with variable of 21 less innings than Gayle.

Hales...

34 innings, 5 NO, Average 37.55, SR 137.84, Ratio 4.25:1, 4 or 6 every 5.3 balls faced.
Note…a big gap in at bats and many NO in such a small pool as total at bats can skew the results in T20…talking T20 here.


Gayle…

43 innings…Ratio 3.07:1…Hits a 4 or 6 every 4.71 balls faced.

Conclusion...as we can see, all players have similar SR and averages…give and take NO to compensate for averages. But as I stated before, T20I is about efficiency and consistency...

Even with a wide gap in at bats, which can be a very important variable, we can see that Gayle with a Ratio of 3.07:1 (innings to 50+ score) is most consistent and also Gayle hitting a 4 or 6 every 4.71 balls faced is most efficient...all done over a longer period…more innings.

Can we really say above guys are greater than Gayle or Gayle is not great when above guys are benchmarks for greatness?

One might say we can't discount singles and twos. One might also say choosing is like scoring a round in a boxing match in that when similar amount of punches thrown, more aggressive and dominant (harder punches) fighter will always win round.

You can go ahead and compute efficiency in terms of 6s to balls faced.

We can only imagine what Gayle's average and SR would be like if he could still take quick singles. Then again, maybe he wouldn’t be so efficiency...so it’s just like the variable...number of innings.

Dats all...nothing more to say on this. Please correct my errors, if any...

 
Lenks 2015-07-03 00:59:30 

In reply to nick2020

Ohh...McCullum.

Innings 70, NO 10, Ratio 4.66:1, 4 or 6 every 5.42 balls faced.

He has to be right up there if you take amount of innings into consideration...

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 01:06:49 

In reply to Lenks

Cowcorner's numbers were T20I. So were mine. It is a given we are talking about International without having to say I all the time.

Lenks, I have a question. Why are you looking at how many 4s and 6s Gayle hit per ball faced? Is it used as "one" of the metrics of T20 greatness? Strike Rate pretty much covers the rate in which you score.

You can go ahead and compute efficiency in terms of 6s to balls faced.


I rather not do that. I find that a strange exercise. Strike Rate is all-encompassing. You cannot get to 151 SR by hitting only singles. Also you say Gayle has a ratio of 3:1 in 50+ scores per innings. If that is more than someone with a higher average than him and similar NOs then that means he has failed more (given more low scores). That is why once NOs are similar higher average beats lower average.

And finally, Finch and Faf have enough games played for us to make a fair assessment.

Gayle is one of the best at the format. But it is not clear cut by the numbers that he is the best. I guess it is all about what one chooses to look at.

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 01:12:27 

In reply to Lenks

Innings 70, NO 10, Ratio 4.66:1, 4 or 6 every 5.42 balls faced.


Lenks if there was a hypothetical player who never hit a 4 or 6 in T20 cricket but ran for 2s every ball.

Player A - 40 inns. 60 average. 200 SR. 0 4s. 0 6s.

I would have a hard time saying he is not greater than Gayle because of the lack of boundaries.

Extreme, absurd example but I think you get my point.

 
Lenks 2015-07-03 02:05:23 

In reply to nick2020

Lenks, I have a question. Why are you looking at how many 4s and 6s Gayle hit per ball faced? Is it used as "one" of the metrics of T20 greatness? Strike Rate pretty much covers the rate in which you score.


Knew u would say that but I am not...

I used them to illustrate efficiency. Note what I said about singles. Note I didn't nit pick/talk much about SR as they are pretty much similar...give and take.

Note I delved into consistency and efficiency...roots of this argument.

Note again...Cowcorner's argument was...see below.

I was actually surprised when it seems to me that folks were suggesting that a 35 avg at international level could justify Gayle as being great or was enough to avoid questions of his greatness.


My argument...see below.

My argument will not be about who is the greatest, as we already know who that is in combined T20s, but to show that Gayle is just as great, if not greater, in T20I than those players he mentioned.


And finally, Finch and Faf have enough games played for us to make a fair assessment.


Didn't say they didn't have...only that results can be skewed without all constants and having a wide variable.

I rather not do that. I find that a strange exercise. Strike Rate is all-encompassing. You cannot get to 151 SR by hitting only singles.


I covered 4s and 6s and alxo singles with an anology

Also you say Gayle has a ratio of 3:1 in 50+ scores per innings. If that is more than someone with a higher average than him and similar NOs then that means he has failed more (given more low scores). That is why once NOs are similar higher average beats lower average.


Double check...not necessarily. That was used to cover consistency which is even over a longer period.

NO or getting out in T20 doesn't mean failed. Only thing guaranteed about NO is better average. Great average T20 can also be skewed as illustrated with that Kenyan fellow.

All the NOs do is create a wider gap with averages especially if wide difference in innings and small total innings...

Eg...Finch has same NO as Gayle. Finch 22 innings, Gayle 43 innings. Finch average 39.78, Gayle 35.15.

Difference...4.63 runs inning.

Let's say they both had zero NO. Finch average 34.36, Gayle 32.69.

Difference...1.67 per inning.

What would your take on that?

Remember, this is T20. What would u use to breakdown the two?

Remember, getting out doesn't mean failure.

Of coure u would use SR which obviously gives Finch the edge with that 1.67 runs per innings. But can u just run away with that?

What about consistency? Gayle would have the edge with more 50+...

Now both would fail in similar proportion as they have similar average which would not give a totally accurate picture as Gayle would have batted 21 times more that Finch...which as I said before...unknown.

 
Lenks 2015-07-03 02:12:31 

In reply to nick2020

Lenks if there was a hypothetical player who never hit a 4 or 6 in T20 cricket but ran for 2s every ball.

Player A - 40 inns. 60 average. 200 SR. 0 4s. 0 6s.

I would have a hard time saying he is not greater than Gayle because of the lack of boundaries.

Extreme, absurd example but I think you get my point.


Nick...I think u need to re-read my post.

I spoke about singles bro'...

I used 4s and 6s as they are constant with these guys in T20.

Look back at what I said about singles, 4s and 6s and stop harping on 6s.

When I'm arguing seriously, I see no tunnel...neither blinkers.

Come to think of it, u didn't even get the basis of my argument. Go back and read bro'...there is a reason why I decided to put these arguments to u instead of Cowcorner.

 
Lenks 2015-07-03 03:16:06 

In reply to nick2020

You can go ahead and compute efficiency in terms of 6s to balls faced.


That was said in jest...

Note...was not used a rationale for my arguments...

Lenks if there was a hypothetical player who never hit a 4 or 6 in T20 cricket but ran for 2s every ball.

Player A - 40 inns. 60 average. 200 SR. 0 4s. 0 6s.

I would have a hard time saying he is not greater than Gayle because of the lack of boundaries.

Extreme, absurd example but I think you get my point.


Come to think of it...I don't have a clue what u talking about without more info. But let's say Player A got out 40 times so he made a total of 2400 runs, faced 1240 balls.

Then again...let's say...

Nick... if there was a hypothetical player who never ran ones, twos, threes but hits only 4s and 6s and also got out 40 times. Faced 1240 balls.

Player B - 40 inns. 60 average. 200 SR. 0 1s, 0 2s, 0 3s, 300 4s, 200 6s

Who would u pick first on your team? Player A or Player B? Why? Would u say your pick greater than the other or just as great?

Extreme, absurd example but I think you get my point.

Note...SR inaccurate...hypothetical.

 
djdrastic 2015-07-03 03:38:08 

In reply to Courtesy

Sorry pardna I apologize that the joke went over your head.
Next time I will spell it out for you rolleyes

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 07:17:08 

In reply to Lenks

Okay. So to simplify this whole thing:

Finch has a higher SR and average even if we divide total runs by inns played. He has a higher HS.

What about consistency? Gayle would have the edge with more 50+...


You are saying Gayle beats him on consistency because he has thirteen 50s which translates into a ratio of 1 50 every 3 matches.

So to be clear it does not make him more consistent; it makes him more consistent at making 50s. But that is not even true; Finch has five 50s in 22 matches which means he has a higher 50 rate than Gayle. Gayle has more because he played more but that is not how you measure consistency so that is an error there.

He also has a higher 100 rate than Gayle. He has a better rate of fours than Gayle but a lower rate of sixes.

So Finch has a better average, better SR, better HS, and in your stats better 50 rate, 100 rate, 4 rate.
Gayle has more Games Played and a better 6 rate.

Does Gayle win the battle of stats in a H2H vs Finch?

 
Cleg 2015-07-03 08:52:43 

In reply to Lenks

We can't really discount average tho' cause it shows some consistency


Not nessessarily!
120..0..0..0 avg 30 (inconsistent)

40..40..10..30 avg 30 (consistent)

Mind you the 120 is more likely to win....than the more "consistent" scores.

Averages are also very much affected by N/Os....which could be affected by batting position.


In T20 ...bating position/SR/avg....must be combined to show how good a player is.

Stats is only half the picture....and some times not even that.

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 09:13:05 

In reply to Cleg

Cleg what on earth are you talking about?

Mind you the 120 is more likely to win....than the more "consistent" scores.


Sure, but all the ducks then won't then lose matches?

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 09:22:15 

Look at the end of the day with numbers not everything shows up in the scorecard and numbers can be cherry picked to further an agenda.

In my opinion given all things as equal as can be - quality of opponent, playing conditions - looking at SR and average once we throw out NOs to me is a good measure.

Gayle is one of the best. The best becomes a debate.

 
billydred 2015-07-03 09:35:35 

Gayle is the best bar none. All challengers have fizzled out, Miller,Marsh, Finch,Watson,Sammy,Kohli,Sehwag,Dhoni all a dem. Finch,Finch. 28 yrs old and only 22 matches, 156 against England who still a bawl seh Fletcha and Gayle tek di money an run. Ball mussi lik unuh ina unuh hed.

 
Courtesy 2015-07-03 09:36:27 

In reply to djdrastic

Can you please spell it out? I await your response to your blanket statement.

 
Courtesy 2015-07-03 09:43:17 

BTW, a word to all you jokers...this argument about the best T20i player is meaningless until you can agree on a criteria to qualify your 'best'.

The best will be appraised using this agreed criteria which will facilitate across the board appraisals.

Subjective arguments using selected stats will never cut it.

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 09:52:18 

In reply to Courtesy

That is clear.

But let us get serious Courtesy. People work backwards.

So if I want Gayle to be the best T20 player I will look at what he is best at and proclaim that is the criteria.

You will never get an agreed criteria. I propose runs / inns and SR. You okay with that?

 
Courtesy 2015-07-03 09:54:10 

In reply to nick2020

That is clear.

But let us get serious Courtesy. People work backwards.

So if I want Gayle to be the best T20 player I will look at what he is best at and proclaim that is the criteria.

You will never get an agreed criteria. I propose runs / inns and SR. You okay with that?


What did I say that is different from your post above?

And yes a criteria can be agreed upon to evaluate the 'best' T20i player.

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 09:55:14 

In reply to Courtesy

What did I say that is different in your post above?


Nothing.

And yes a criteria can be agreed upon.


Will you show me?

 
Courtesy 2015-07-03 09:58:09 

In reply to nick2020

Will you show me?


lol lol lol

Let's bring a group of reputable statisticians together.

I recommend Nate Silver...you can recommend me.

We will probably need about 5 such reputable persons.

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 10:01:08 

In reply to Courtesy

And when this exercise is finished will Cleg accept your criteria if Gayle does not end up #1?

wink

 
Courtesy 2015-07-03 10:02:45 

In reply to nick2020

And when this exercise is finished will Cleg accept your criteria if Gayle does not end up #1?


Honestly, I would not want a reputable ass to agree with me.

333 is a simpleton with stats.

I gone to my subsistence peanut farming.


lol lol lol

 
Lenks 2015-07-03 10:38:33 

In reply to nick2020

Look at the end of the day with numbers not everything shows up in the scorecard and numbers can be cherry picked to further an agenda.

In my opinion given all things as equal as can be - quality of opponent, playing conditions - looking at SR and average once we throw out NOs to me is a good measure.


lololol....exactly what I'm saying...

Gayle is one of the best. The best becomes a debate.


Boss, yuh stuck inna a tunnel or wha?

ONCE AGAIN...

My argument will not be about who is the greatest, as we already know who that is in combined T20s, but to show that Gayle is just as great, if not greater, in T20I than those players he mentioned.

 
Lenks 2015-07-03 10:44:23 

In reply to Courtesy

BTW, a word to all you jokers...this argument about the best T20i player is meaningless until you can agree on a criteria to qualify your 'best'.

The best will be appraised using this agreed criteria which will facilitate across the board appraisals.

Subjective arguments using selected stats will never cut it.


Indeed sah!!

Below is how I started out...with Cowcorner.

Lenks7/1/15 10:37:11 PM
In reply to Cowcorner

1st...I don't defend players.

2nd...I don't understand what yuh mean by domestic level.

3rd...What di criteria yuh use to justify players yuh listed might be better?

4th...hope yuh understand that stats in T20 cannot be used as how they are used in tests.

5th...I'm a Yardie so I might be automatically disqualified from this conversation.

6th...Just curious.


Cowcorner used average...

Even worse when stats are skewed...not all constants.

Even worse when it comes to T20...

 
Lenks 2015-07-03 10:52:15 

In reply to Courtesy

btw...who yuh calling jokers?

 
Cowcorner 2015-07-03 11:05:34 

Food for thought.

Folks, I think it is fair to say that there seem to be no clear objective criteria on judging greatness in T20I.

Hence my question below re greatness.

In Test the general rule of thumb is an avg of 50+ over a prolong period.


What is the criteria one would put forward for One days and T20I?

Any suggestions?

 
camos 2015-07-03 11:13:59 

In reply to Cowcorner

average + SR .

 
Cowcorner 2015-07-03 11:21:03 

In reply to camos



average + SR .


Do you think we have a rule of thumb number as yet for both one days and T20I?

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 11:24:01 

In reply to Lenks

I am lost but since I misplaced my Garmin unit that happens frequently.

Who would you say is the best current T20I player?

 
Jabari18 2015-07-03 11:24:16 

In reply to Lenks

Cricket is one sport where a statistician that lives and dies by numbers in his day to day life will throw all that out the window and deal in hypotheticals, aesthetics and intangibles.

Look at an argument on who is better Lara or Tendulkar, Sobers or Kallis, Waqar and Wasim or Walsh and Ambrose.

Always remember that there are lies damn lies and statistics

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 11:29:29 

In reply to Cowcorner

I am not as ambitious as Courtesy. I promote free thinking.

This is my stance:

If Player X is better than Player Y show us how. Then we can argue until the cows come home about your metric.

I believe AJ Finch statistically is better than Chris Gayle in T20I. He has a higher average (throwing out NOs), higher SR, and higher HS than Gayle. Anything else like impact on the game is BS because it cannot be quantified and depends on someone's feelings about a player.

Now if Cleg comes along and says Gayle is better than Finch I would ask him to show me how. Being Jamaican might be a hidden stat though. lol

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 11:31:42 

In reply to Jabari18

Always remember that there are lies damn lies and statistics


A scorecard never tells the whole story. Does not tell us if a dismissal was soft or if it was brilliant fielding. Does not tell us how difficult the pitch was.

But stats do clearly show Gayle is better than any other West Indian T20I batsman.

 
Cleg 2015-07-03 11:31:44 

In reply to nick2020

Sure, but all the ducks then won't then lose matches?


Sure they will....but at least you have a good chance of a win.

The "consistent" scores 40..40..30..10 do not nessarry give you that chance.

 
Cleg 2015-07-03 11:34:54 

In reply to billydred

Ball mussi lik unuh ina unuh hed




lol lol lol

 
Cowcorner 2015-07-03 11:35:17 

In reply to nick2020

But stats do clearly show Gayle is better than any other West Indian T20I batsman.


That I completely agree with.

 
camos 2015-07-03 11:38:01 

In reply to Cowcorner

all measures are subjective,even 50+ differs over time and playing conditions.

 
black 2015-07-03 11:38:15 

In reply to nick2020

believe AJ Finch statistically is better than Chris Gayle in T20I. He has a higher average (throwing out NOs), higher SR, and higher HS than Gayle. Anything else like impact on the game is BS because it cannot be quantified and depends on someone's feelings about a player.


These guy have better averages because they consistently score at or slightly above their averages. Gayle produces more game winning scores than anyone else.

That is why he is in such demand around the world

Think of Gayle as a good pinch hitter in baseball

 
camos 2015-07-03 11:53:38 

In reply to black

you can't compare averages of two people one with 22 observation and the other with 45!

 
Cowcorner 2015-07-03 12:00:09 

In reply to camos

you can't compare averages of two people one with 22 observation and the other with 45!


What do you mean?

 
camos 2015-07-03 12:04:17 

In reply to Cowcorner


the man with 45 games has a 'truer' or more stable average than the one with 22 games, the 22 game guy can make big moves in either direction.

 
black 2015-07-03 12:09:13 

In reply to camos

Chances are the guy with the 45 games is more consistent because it takes big numbers to move his stats.

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 13:27:08 

In reply to camos

That is not "true". It depends. But we can run the numbers.

Gayle in his first 22 matches.

Cowcorner, grab some popcorn this in going to get interesting.

In Gayle's first 22 matches his average was 35.20 @ 144 SR with 1 100 and 6 50s.
After 45 matches? 35.15 SR @ 142 with 1 100 and 7 50s.

His numbers look pretty much the same.

So why should I believe that 22 matches is not enough to know who Faf and Finch are?
And alternate point - Faf and Finch then are still better than Gayle was after 22 matches. Right?

 
Cowcorner 2015-07-03 13:33:02 

In reply to nick2020

Not a boy move.

 
Cleg 2015-07-03 14:00:26 

In reply to nick2020

And alternate point - Faf and Finch then are still better than Gayle was after 22 matches. Right?


So what you are saying is, if you owned a "franchize"

.....you would be going for Faf or Finch over CHG yes?

 
camos 2015-07-03 14:02:16 

In reply to nick2020

In Gayle's first 22 matches his average was 35.20 @ 144 SR with 1 100 and 6 50s.
After 45 matches? 35.15 SR @ 142 with 1 100 and 7 50s


it happens in this case does not mean you can use it as a rule.

 
billydred 2015-07-03 14:04:28 

flinch
T20I 22 22 756 156 39.79 152.42 3 1 5 83 32
IPL 39 39 911 88 24.62 121.47 2 0 6 100 29

Worl Boss
T20I 45 43 1406 117 35.15 142.6 3 1 13 122 87
IPL 82 81 3199 175 46.36 153.5 12 5 18 262 230

Pick a t20 team an tell mi who yuh want? big grin big grin big grin big grin big grin big grin

 
black 2015-07-03 14:04:57 

In reply to nick2020

Dude, it seems logical what you are saying, but it not always the case. The guy with the least amount of games can move his numbers dramatically with one big score. The guy with the most games has to have several big scores to move his numbers.

 
Cleg 2015-07-03 14:12:52 

In reply to billydred

flinch
T20I 22 22 756 156 39.79 152.42 3 1 5 83 32
IPL 39 39 911 88 24.62 121.47 2 0 6 100 29

Worl Boss
T20I 45 43 1406 117 35.15 142.6 3 1 13 122 87
IPL 82 81 3199 175 46.36 153.5 12 5 18 262 230

Pick a t20 team an tell mi who yuh want?


It would have to be Faf or Finch for 2 reasons

1) they have "better stats"

2)He couldn`t afford the World Boss!

lol lol

 
Narper 2015-07-03 15:05:27 

Who mek de first T20I ton in the history of T20 I?

Who has the highest score in T20s?

In addition to the above who else in T20s have rass claat TWO TRPLE TONS in tests big grin

 
JahJah 2015-07-03 15:11:23 

Wait. Dat is Grinch's IPL stats? Oh dear. He really doh like dat comp.

 
Bigzinc 2015-07-03 15:25:21 

In reply to JahJah

Any world T20 team the first name written down is CHRISTOPHER HENRY GAYLE

 
Jabari18 2015-07-03 16:47:11 

In reply to nick2020

I am sure if this thread was started in any other test playing nation from Aus to Bang there will hardly be disagreement. But on a windies MB we lookin to everyone except we own

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 16:50:39 

In reply to Cleg

You shifting the goal post to IPL now?

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 16:52:34 

In reply to Jabari18

Or maybe it would lack Jamaicans to pad the votes?

No one in here is saying Gayle is no good Jabari. But Gayle being the best in T20i is debatable.

Apparently to some it is not.

 
Jabari18 2015-07-03 17:18:56 

In reply to nick2020

Is gayle the best t20 batsman in the world?

 
Lenks 2015-07-03 17:53:53 

In reply to nick2020

Nick...in all fairness, u shifted the post long ago.

Debate started out to show if Gayle was great...based on Cowcorner's assessment of his average.

U entered debate going down tunnel with greatest, greater than, better...

I tried bringing u back on track many times but u kept harping on greatest, greater than...even asking me who I think greater, greatest, better than...

U came back once which was good and I endorsed...see below.

Look at the end of the day with numbers not everything shows up in the scorecard and numbers can be cherry picked to further an agenda.

In my opinion given all things as equal as can be - quality of opponent, playing conditions - looking at SR and average once we throw out NOs to me is a good measure.

Gayle is one of the best. The best becomes a debate.


Lo and behold...u again...see below.

Who would you say is the best current T20I player?


I wasn't arguing as a Jamaican...made that clear. I could argue from either viewpoint. U don't have to support an argument in a debate to be on pro side...

That aspect u lacking...cause u started bringing up Jamaican.

U even took argument to a different thread...

Based on above, I knew a rational debate over Cowcorner's argument was no longer the theme so I decided to tek whe miself.

I followed ur debate with Dukes and was impressed...really I decided to engage. I rarely get involved I serious discussions here because of mindset of people...obviously you had a mindset to the roots of this argument.

T20 is unique...many situations on and off di fly. A batsman can have many, many great performances yet a drop in SR and average due to situations. Reason why I stayed in the box, stuck to root of argument, in this debate.

Look at Sammy...there is a reason he received all that money. Impact isn't really BS in T20 but, yes, it cannot be quantified most times. Hence, I stayed away from things like those.

These guys stats are pretty much similar. There are also variables. U cannot come to a final conclusion, u can only break down stats in all possible ways to support your argument.

End of day, I wasn't talking about best. You said it best...

The best becomes a debate


Then again...u proclaimed better, best...

Why would u even take this argument to another thread?

 
Cleg 2015-07-03 17:57:30 

In reply to nick2020

But Gayle being the best in T20i is debatable.


....and thats because he is not a dottie ent?

lol lol

Listen geezer if they gave points for all format in all 3 disciplines.....CHG would head that list. cool

 
Lenks 2015-07-03 18:11:10 

In reply to nick2020

Nick...don't want to sound like a broken record but Cowcorner's argument was...below.

I was actually surprised when it seems to me that folks were suggesting that a 35 avg at international level could justify Gayle as being great or was enough to avoid questions of his greatness.


I set out to prove that argument incorrect and to also show that if Gayle couldn't be considered great then no one else could...

I think I achieved my objective...

Another thing...said it before here few times...

Do u know that when a rational argument is placed under philosophical scrutiny, there will be times when both parties will agree with each...most times without either party being aware?

Happened a few times during our convo...when it was rational. Go back and check...

Dats all for me on this argument.

Btw...that lil input from Courtesy was a masterpiece...

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 18:25:56 

In reply to Cleg

Listen geezer if they gave points for all format in all 3 disciplines.....CHG would head that list.


Virat Kohli may have a say in that race.

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 18:35:56 

In reply to Lenks

Here is what I see in the thread.

Page 2, Cowcorner's first post

Is he really a great since he is really only doing this at the domestic level?

His International stats brings him back to earth.


Now even I said jokingly that "earth" must be really high. But I do not agree with his harsh assessment. Gayle is great at any level of T20. He was then challenged to produce a list of greater people in T20I cricket by Narper. And this is my only part in this conversation.

But the attitudes of some people in here are difficult to understand. I have said repeatedly Gayle is one of the best. So because I do not think he is clearly the best I am a dottie/hater/pulling down my own? That is stupid.

I am not saying you are insular Lenks. Now yuh fren Cleg.......... lol

 
Cleg 2015-07-03 18:45:27 

In reply to nick2020

Virat Kohli may have a say in that race


Really??? rolleyes rolleyes

How many test triples does he have???

How many ODI wkts does he have???

How many tests 5fers does he have??

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 18:46:51 

In reply to Cleg

Hole Strain lol

to answer the question... none. none. none.

Hole Strain... lol

 
Lenks 2015-07-03 19:04:25 

In reply to nick2020

Cleg snuck in dat one pon yuh...

Knowing Cleg, and if u were looking, u woulda seen dat one coming....was very obvious.

lolol...

Don't be like Quakie now...look before yuh leap.

lolol...

 
nick2020 2015-07-03 19:16:03 

In reply to Lenks

I don't tried too hard with Cleg. I know I cannot win.

I do think Kohli will have quite an accomplished career in all formats of the game. But there is no better batsman (without even looking at Gayle useful bowling back in the day) in all formats.

I still would like to see Gayle open in tests. He would be able to help our transition to the youth movement. But I have said this repeatedly.

You never answered the question... who is your best T20i player?

 
Lenks 2015-07-03 22:52:50 

In reply to nick2020

I don't indulge/get involved in greatest/best arguments...

I have favourites...

If pressed, I will say who I believe is best but fully aware that it will be...IMO.

 
Narper 2015-07-03 22:54:45 

 
Narper 2015-07-03 22:57:55 

 
Narper 2015-07-09 20:14:25 

Alyuh watching de legend again

Gayle 91* (50) and counting


JT 127/4 (16.0 Ovs

 
Narper 2015-07-09 20:20:58 

6666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666

17.1 Searles to Gayle, SIX, to deep square leg

 
Narper 2015-07-09 20:21:22 

Gayle 99* (53)

 
Narper 2015-07-09 20:23:54 

Chris Gayle 100* (54)

Another mater class innings

 
Narper 2015-07-09 20:28:03 

18.5 Dwayne Bravo to Gayle, out Caught&Bowled!!

Gayle c and b Dwayne Bravo 105(57) [4s-6 6s-9]

 
Narper 2015-07-09 20:28:42 

JT 170/5 (18.5 Ovs