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Can T20 cricket create mythical players such as Garry Sobers, Brian Lara, Viv Richards, Sachin, Sanga et al? Would fans continue to care that Gayle or Pollard could hit the ball a country mile with oversized bats, unless they built their cachet in the longer form of the game?

All you who are relegating Test Cricket to the dinosaur age, would you even care about a calendar filled only with meaningless T20 games which eventually merge into each other to become a blur of boredom inducing memories.

Who here would want to see a cricket world where T20 was the only format?

In reply to Larr Pullo

WHat you me and the others want is irrelevant. It is what the majority wants will drive sponsors and broadcasters. And most ppl don't want to wait 5 days watching paint dry.

My view is that most T20s are forgettable. As good as Samuels innings in the world cup was, no non west indian will be talking about it religiously on the anniversary of the innings. But people will continue to prefer this hit or miss format because of its excitement and test cricket will continue to be propped up out of some false sense of respect and players will give lip service to the game.

yall remember one tip, two tip

In reply to Jabari18

If teams like WI keep on picking players who don't like Tests they will pay the price.

Its not like they have been shepherding us to greatness.

The brands for T20 franchise cricket are just not strong enough. Even in the US the brand West Indies is STILL better known than any IPL brand. And not just because those brands can dissappear any day because of some scandal.

Like it or not franchise brands need a high level of connection with their audiences to stick.

Right now a set of you follow individual players because the brands have no appeal and there is no real value to being the best IPL team. There is no WC, no Champions League equivalent despite the attempts to force ripe one and in the end T20 can't develop its resources. It needs real cricket to develop T20 cricketers.

And that is why Test Cricket will survive.

Seems like west indies fans have already spoken about a calendar full of meaningful test matches given the way they pack the grounds in the region for that format of the game.

In reply to imusic

The Caribbean is but 1/9th of the test playing world.

In reply to Commie... so who/what was stopping them from picking players that love Tests cricket?


P.s. T20 is real cricket, whether you like it or not.

In reply to Larr Pullo

Both can - exist, T20 is brining fans to the game at a higher rate than the other formats.
Going forward it will be up to the individual choice, not every runner prepares for the 100 meters or the marathon, but we witness hundred of runners competing in different races.

In reply to Larr Pullo

If the rate of change on the outside is greater than the rate of change on the inside, the end is near.

Test cricket in the West Indies is dead, get over it.

In reply to openning

You're answering a question that was not asked...

In reply to Larr Pullo

It can survive on its own, and it will create it own stars and heroes.

20/20 was made for the North American market, 3 hours, fast paced cricket, good for TV and ad revenues.. Still needs refining but it will happen..

Test cricket was made for lords who wanted a distraction ... It no longer fits the attention span of today's generation..

I love test cricket but it doesn't meet the needs of this generation, people don't have that time anymore, sadly..

In reply to Larr Pullo

For me personally, No! T20 by itself would not be an appealing option. The ins and outs and the intrigue of a well played test has a lot of excitement,twists and turns and yes disappointment. And that is the problem, the disappointment, no sports fan wants to support a losing team for 20 years, if WI were a winning test side we would not even be having this discussion. The only reason anyone likes and follows a team is because that team has a chance of winning and can counter any opposition they face. Competing they call it.

WI Test cricket sadly now is mostly failure and so has little support by fans. T20 provides the pleasure we seek from cricket and does that in three short hours, just about the attention span of the T20 limer.

T20 By itself will never be able to stand alone mainly because it cannot even hold a team together, players move around in franchises, there is no country team in T20 that can play only that format for a whole year, year after year.

Cricket is a team sport and T20 is an individual sport and that there is the difference.

In reply to emrmike

Really?
Is cricket now being played with one bowler and one batsman?

In reply to Controversy

Quite right....

The question should be, can Test cricket survive without T20 cricket? We are talking about the West Indies, after all, aren't we?

So, with that in mind, I'm not terribly bothered by whether it breaks into the North American market or not. The fact is that there's a market for T20 cricket in the Caribbean, but there's no market for Test cricket any more.

In reply to Larr Pullo

To answer your loaded question: Through the eyes of those who grew up on a steady diet of Test cricket, the ones who have got used to and enjoy the purist of the game, no, T20 can not exist or survive without Test cricket.
But where I live now, the youngsters live for IPL and T20 and couldn't give two cents about the "long boring game" otherwise known as Test cricket.

It is interesting and comical sometimes when I hear youngsters talk about cricket in their homes. "My dad will sit there and watch hours and days of cricket."
On the other side, "who is,your favourite IPL team? I like ______"
You can fill in the blanks.

For this generation not Ina traditional Test playing country, they couldn't care less about Test cricket.

The issue you all seem to miss is that all the structures of cricket, ie our first class and non fc structure and the fundamentals of learning cricket have NOTHING to do with T20.

It is like trying to produce beach footballers.

There is no such thing. You have footballers who end up playing beach football.

So for example if you accept there is no need for our fc competition and our club competitions because they are all geared to producing cricketers for ODI and Test cricket, then cricket..not test cricket, dies.

There is no grassroots T20 structure or T20 fan.

Its a lucrative entertainment spinoff of cricket and not a sustainable product in itself.

In reply to openning

The point I'm making is you may support Gayle, and today he plays for the Tallawahs, and tomorrow for the IPL, Big bash, or some English team. The thing is do you support the team or the individual? With test we all support the team because its our team and Gayle is a part of it so we support him.

Can TEST survive without T20.???

In reply to Commie... that's because you don't know cricket. Still required to play proper cricket shots, how often do one get away when swiping? No, you simplifying the thing ...

. No, you are now producing cricketers. So I say again, T20 is cricket, whether you like it or not.

In reply to Commie

yet it enjoys a higher level of support than the other formats!

In reply to Commie

Bing-Facting-Go!!! There are very few sustainable T20 stars who didn't make their bones in the long format game.

In reply to Larr Pullo

That is because T20 is evolving and the players had to come from some where.

As T20 continues you will see stars that don't actually play Test cricket.

It was the same for ODIs.

We are already seeing specialist T20 players.

I do under stand your hanging on to Test cricket just like people hang on for dear life to West Indies cricket.
The writing is on the wall though. Money will sustain T20. When the money stops then .......

In reply to archangel

Name five ODI stars who didn't play test cricket, or had a meaningful test career?

In reply to emrmike

I am a supporter of Barbados and West Indies, I do not support any other team.
I am a fan of Pollard among the T20 squad, but I cannot name three club teams out of the region, playing T20 cricket.
It is not a format that I get exited about

18 hole miniature golf or 5 rounds (approx 4-8hrs apiece) of professional golf

10 second drag race or Indy 500

Slam dunk competition or best of 7 finals

Penalty shootout or overtime game with sudden death

Home run derby or baseball game..

....you decide.

Mikesiva,

It is funny that T20 cricket follows the NA sports formula but has not broken into the market.

And I predict will never. Soccer and the MLS struggled for years and that is the most popular sport in the world that they tweaked to make it more suitable to them.

Natty,

Dwayne Bravo is a great T20 all rounder. How would you sum up his Test career? Andre Russell?

In reply to nick2020

takes time! MLS struggle because they are trying to create and model something new instead of adapting the methods used in the successful leagues around the world. How many true fans of the sport want to see a washed up Gerrad, playoff and all star game?

In reply to Larr Pullo

It would be difficult to identify T20 ODI stars who have not played Test and meaningful contribution is relative. That would be easier to do though it would be debatable.

But give it some time. It will happen what with all the T20 bashes.
A few Netherlands and Irish players have made their mark in the T20 game. As soon as their teams make more headway, they will become household names without playing Test cricket. Look at Bangladesh players too.

T20 stars From West Indies

Pollard - no tests
Russell - 1 test
Badree - #1 RANKED T20 bowler. No tests
Narine - # 2 RANKED T20 bowler. He played tests based on his LO success not the other way around

Australia:
Warner - He played tests based on his LO success....not the other way around
Glenn Maxwell - 3 tests. Again played test based on LO success
Faulkner - 1 test
Brad Hodge - 6 tests
David Hussey - 0 tests
Nannes - 0 tests
Aaron Finch - # 1 RANKED T20 batsman. No tests

England:
Alex Hales - #3 RANKED T20 batsman. No tests

In reply to natty_forever

Its because you don't know cricket you can speak this bs and be willing to be held by it over the Internet.

The fundamentals of cricket are emphasized in learning technique and form.

This technique and form cannot be taught in some T20 camp.

T20 has its place in this world in the same way burgers have their place in the modern diet. The level of popularity does not indicate either value or importance, but convenience.

If you were to train a world of people based on burgers you would have a crisis of etiquette as most people wouldn't be able to use cutlery as is the growing case amongst certain fast food eating demographies.

Similarly T20 is the necessary thrill of the sport. It doesn't have much real value but it does draw a crowd.

In reply to Commie

What makes eating food with knife and fork so superior to eating food by hand?

Roti, Bake and Shark, Doubles, Pies and all that

In reply to Jabari18

You know why?

Because cutlery forces both food mixing and also a sit down and socialization as part of the meal.

There is both a nutrition value and a familial/societal value to this.

Anyway we digress. Do you all realise the amount of cricket that gets played every day across the world?

And there you have it.

Funniest and at the same time saddest part for the author.....Cricket is entertainment

If it doesn't draw a crowd...it has zero value.

In reply to imusic

But unfortunately it cannot be the base of the game.

In reply to Commie

The title of the thread asked a question. Can T20 survive without test cricket?

The answer is yes

Test cricket is NOT the base of the game

It is a format of the game....just like T20

Teaching the funadmentals of the game is NOT Test cricket. It's the fundamentals of the game of cricket of which Test, ODI, T20, List A, and First Class are a part

T20 is mostly dependent on players who make their name in LO cricket. Many of those LO cricketers also play Test cricket.

A case can also be made that Test cricket increasingly depends on the revenue generated by T20 cricket. Without that revenue...the game itself is in jeopardy.

Imagine that....

Commie,

You don't see enough time and space in a T20 game for development of skill? Gayle almost invented this thing where you play slow early and catch up later on. Pollard has adopted that and his success is increasing.

In 10 years players won't be using their long version skill in the format
The signs are there
There was a place for Badree and Santokie, and Fletcher
You see Shiv and Cook and Lara and TenD and Jaya couldn't make ?

In reply to imusic

Thanks for that post.
Pullo might argue some of those are not stars but the ranked ones would prove him wrong.
Pollard is the poster boy for T20 players who have made it big without playing a single test.

In reply to imusic

Of course T20 can be vital to the survival of Test Cricket through its revenue but it can NEVER be the base of the game.

If there is no Test cricket why play fc cricket outside of 50 overs?

Why don't you go on cricketarchive.com on any given day and see the volume of current cricket being played.

The sheer volume of cricket, at club two day to FC 4 day which is geared towards producing professional cricketers and also which forms the recreational base of the game, extends into Test Cricket.

Sydney Grade cricket is not being played to create players for Big Bash. It is part of the cricket culture of present fc cricket. Same as League cricket in England is to county cricket.

T20 hasn't even got a statistical base and its standards are dubious at best. There is a lot yet to come.

In reply to Halliwell

I see T20 helping aggression in test cricket and also helping Tests move to night cricket and possibly even 3 dayers in time to come.

Chris Gayle is T20 Bradman yet in the most batsman friendly era from 2000-2010 when near 25 batsmen averaged over 50, he wasn't one.

In fact in the all time reliance ratings of test bats he isn't in the top 100 and he is 47 in ODIs.

What T20 has done is put out an easily viewable, easily sold, and quickly completed game that people can have fun at without understanding what is going on.

And that will sell whilst ultimately needing real cricket to produce its resource.

After Brian Lara test cricket can go...all batsmen after him and Tendy are boring now to watch.

In reply to Commie

I agree with part of what you are saying and part music man.

Yes T20 is rubbish. Yes T20 is like a hamburger and Test cricket is like a steak. But the analogy stops when you make a health and longevity parallel. Music man is right; sports is in the business of entertaining the masses whereas food is consumed to nourish the body. The thing that makes food good is how it tastes but the translation is lost when talking about sports.

Honestly what makes Test cricket right and T20 wrong? What if cricket started out as T20? Would Test cricket be right?

In reply to nick2020

If he is "great" - then Chanderpaul is "great".

In reply to nick2020

You don't get it. If T20 becomes the paradigm for the sport it will die even quicker.

T20 does not develop anyone. The majority of club cricket played world wide is not T20 and it is from that framework that T20 gets its resources.

There is no T20 base and no intention to create a base.

In reply to Commie

That is so by virtue of Test cricket being oldest, and most established and has nothing to do with the lack of future longevity you are citing.



This is a puzzling statement.

Look, cricket is like any other business and there is a financial aspect that needs to be taken care of. The current state of Test cricket financially vs T20 cricket should clearly tell you what is going to happen to the way cricket is being played. Well, unless you chalk it up to being a phase.

Out of curiosity I would like to ask you this:

At what point do you think you may be wrong on the future of T20 and Test cricket? What will be the clear indicator(s) for you? When the Ashes is the only Test cricket scheduled in a year? When every youth programme is T20? Or before that?

In reply to Larr Pullo

Yes of course T20 can survive without test cricket. Right now even ODIs getting boring for me. I wished SportsMax will play replays of CPL or IPL instead of the live 50 overs they showing these days in England. I may follow a game if a West Indian playing but probably won't go sit in the stands anymore for a test match or watch anything other than highlights of test cricket. The days I actually went to test matches was after exams in secondary school and I got free passes.

In reply to Commie

When cricket is taught in primary schools and secondary schools they teach children to play for 5 days? By the time a youth is 17 probably 90% of their cricket is 20/40/50 over cricket. People have used Narine as an example. He could have spent his whole life never playing Test cricket. Test cricket is not the only way to have a cricket career.

Also youth go for the most lucrative. Football on a green pitch is more lucrative so footballers aim for that first and then fall back to coaching then maybe beach football. Nowadays I won't fall the youth for looking for a T20 career first and if that doesn't work they can play test cricket.

In reply to nick2020

You mistake the ability to make money with being interested in the systems that make the game tick.

Just like the typical NBA franchise is not interested in developing young players before they enter the league, T20 cricket is only interested in the final product.

And why shouldn't they ?

The question is why you think they would waste their money to try to develop youngsters when you already have clubs and fc cricket doing that.

There is no wrong and right in this.

The question was can T20 survive without Test Cricket. Its provocative but in there lies the crux. The systems that surround sport are the most boring things.

T20 needs the products and it needs them for as cheap as possible.

The ICC needs to fund the development of cricket else the sport dies. T20 can provide funding.

So they both need each other and T20 will literally collapse if the industry of cricket development falls.

That...is without doubt.

In reply to BenGman

Narine is a bad example because he throws the ball and likely would not have much of a Test career because his commercial value would have little play in his career.

T20 allows people like Narine to exist because there is entertainment value above and beyond the rules of the game.

Man more bitter than aloes yes

In reply to imusic

Always brings you out

Its like a flute..

In reply to imusic


The T20 format can grow, just like Test cricket.
One does not have to play the longer version, to be a great T20 cricketer, as someone who grow up watching test, and watch T20 for purely the entertainment value, it reminds me of having choices at the movies.
Today I can watch a drama tomorrow a comedy, both can be entertaining.

In reply to Larr Pullo

The problem with Tests is the length of time it takes to complete a game and even after five days we may not get a result.In this day and age that is unacceptable.

T20 on it's own can surely live. But they have to plan it properly. Too many leagues will only dilute the T20's. For the record count the number of Tests played during the last five years. There will be a progressive decline in that number.

In all seriousness people in WI,India,SL,Pak and Zim don't really care if Tests dies. They want to see their team in action, whatever format that may be. Aus,SA, Eng and NZL will cling on to the Relic and slowly but surely SA and NZL will get out of it.

I predict by 2020 only Australia and England will be playing Tests religiously. All others would have ODI's, T20's as their top two priorities.

In reply to Commie

Commie I think you are letting your personal bias cloud your thinking.

1. Sport is a business. Test cricket is not profitable for all but the select few. The product will die if it is not profitable.

It is really that simple. Now the catch for T20 is this whole IPL thing. If India/IPL is going to be the driving force of T20 changes need to be made or the corruption will kill the format. The financial model of T20 needs to be altered to make it a viable club format for all the homegrown competitions. See, the fundamental difference between T20 (local) and Test (local) is the ability to be monetized. Test cricket is a money drain locally on the boards like the WICB whereas the CPL, once managed properly, could be successful.

At the end of the day I know your view on T20 would be vastly different in this chicken and egg argument if T20 came first. Test cricket to you would be absurd.

In reply to gvenkat

fixed.

I think everyone will play a one off Test. Just as homage to cricket. But I do wonder if the ICC will do anything radical to Test cricket like shorten it to 3 days and force a result.

In reply to nick2020

You talk about T20 needing to this and do that.

Here is the deal. The main driver for T20 cricket is a country in which half of 1.2 bn ppl don't even have toilets and which corruption is a way of life.

This isnt the US with its franchise sports or England with Premiership football etc.


T20..ie the IPL, need not do anything but make money using the same formula over and over again because there is no overriding greater cause. The BCCI will soon start shutting down other leagues if it can and they and the ECB have been key to preventing t20 at the Olympics because the IOC will subsume their TV rights. Yes..it is a business.

And that is what will continue until something blows up.

In addition there is a reason why the WICB gave up the rights to the CPL.

The Caribbean T20 wasn't making money either and we will only find out how durable this CPL model is after the Digicel IPO. Don't be surprised they sell it to some Indian looking to do a bit of washing because they won't be able to misreport the CPL finances to stock market investors.

There is scant reason why cricket should do well in this region. What sport is? Football and Basketball are struggling regionally to self sustain, both being carried by FIFA and FIBA ( note...not the NBA or NCAA) and the Caribbean is in a cycle of low growth.

Anyway all your predictions will have time to bloom. 2020 is right round the corner.

In reply to Larr Pullo

Yes, T20 could survive without Test cricket, and will outlive it.

T20 is about intensity, athleticism and entertainment. Test cricket, by comparison, seems to be more about the supposed virtues of being English, or out-Englishing the English.

In reply to Commie

Commie you seem to be side-stepping the financial viability of Test cricket while highlighting the financial pitfalls of Club T20. And you are on one hand talking club cricket and comparing it to International cricket.

So let us compare Club Test cricket in each region and Club T20.
And T20i vs International Test.

Club Test cricket is on life support.

It's the other way round. Not only can 20:20 easily survive without Test cricket, Test cricket will have a problem surviving if we kill 20:20.

Sobers. Tendulkar, Lara....these are big names, but the game of cricket will find other names in other formats just as easily.

Cricket is a game of bat, ball, wickets. All that matters is some fella running in to bowl at another fella holding a bat and defending his wickets. Formats can change.

Just because we like Test cricket does not mean it is immortal or indispensable.

Who is WE? If that was the case, Why are we talking about protecting that format? Should it not protect, rather live on it's own.

In reply to gvenkat

You do realize that a draw is a result, don't you?

But it's clearly way over yours and iTito's head.

In reply to Verstehen

Its a symbiosis.

Nothing captures the essence of this whole T20 debate than two things.

The aversion to India and England in particular to having the game in the Olympics.
The lack of any CBA or workers rights representation in the biggest T20 league, the IPL.

The expansion of the game via the Olympics might seem a good thing on face value. The argument made for expansion for example into China has been huge, and so would be the greater amount of money associates will get. However that is a huge problem for the BCCI in particular as a greater widening of the game is seen as a dilution of they and the ICC strength in controlling ICC revenue.

Therefore they are actually culling the T20 expansion deliberately and will further cut down on T20 leagues where they can. The irony of all this is that Test Cricket is possibly the only way the ICC can continue to control cricket, and the Big 3 can stay relevant. Anything else and they risk associate nations getting independently funded, starting to grow their own T20 leagues, and TV money going away from the centre of control.

The second part is the gravy. WHilst Test Cricket has strong FICA representation, T20 cricket in the IPL in particular again, its every man for themselves and no CBA. It will take one big league in China or the US to offer proper IP sell on and the BCCI will be fcucked with their franchise owns everything model.

But I digress.

The possible future is either a devolved cricket world with new entrepeneurs globally all funding T20 leagues in many countriues like there is football, and the ICC becoming a global rights holder like FIFA, managing World Cups for T20, and ODI and Test series and with an Olympics presence as a fast growing global sport.

Or a closed world where there are 4-5 main T20 leagues controlled by the ICC as it is, aka the Big 3, bi-lateral test series between revolving strength Test teams and the World Cups and No Olympics.

Unless some billionaire or two backed by TV comes along with the expressed desire to wrestle the game away from the Big 3, its slowly we forge ahead.

In reply to SnoopDog

DumbAss, Draw is no result. Get that ?

In reply to Commie

Interesting thoughts. I don't disagree.

However my point to Pullo was that Test cricket/ 20:20/ODI are ultimately all immaterial, what matters at the end of the day is that what we call 'cricket' is bat/ ball/ wickets and it will live in one form or another.

In reply to gvenkat

I should have said we = some of us.

In reply to Commie

But can it survive without Test cricket?

In reply to Verstehen

Lets agree to disagree here. Thats like saying Beach football is essentially the same thing, ie ball, foot, goal

I dont want to watch beach football and I rarely want to watch T20.

In reply to Commie

Eventually u mite hadda swear off cricket wit dat approach

In reply to Jabari18

As a lime, a social event, T20 works, until it doesnt.

It has zero game appeal for me, where I look forward to a game or statistically track the results.

If it becomes the dominant paradigm I have both football and basketball to watch and plenty memories in the tank.

In reply to Commie

Answer meh sumtin on d u-19 thread

In reply to Commie

Ok. But one last thought - what you call Test cricket today would possibly have bored, if not excited the contempt of, passionate cricket fans 150 years ago. Possibly they would have compared what we call Test cricket to an artificial, meaningless construct.

Everything changes. As much as I love Tests, to say that Test cricket is or should be superior/ unchanging/ primary is to ignore history, ignore reality and ignore change.

In reply to gvenkat

Seriously Dude. Have you no facking shame?

Have you never heard of the phrase "the result was a draw"?

You're probably as smart as you look.

In reply to Verstehen

Test cricket has changed quite a bit. Timeless Tests, 3 and 4 days Tests, 6 day tests, rest days, smaller stumps, 8 ball overs, font foot no balls...etc etc, the game has changed pretty drastically without killing the core.

It can change some more. That is my preference. you have day / night tests. can shorten the days, allow subs to play as bats or bowlers etc.

But Test cricket has evolved over a considerable amount of time. T20 isnt an evolution of Test Cricket, its like ordering a risotto and getting taco bell and a sprite.

In reply to Commie

You have the patience of a thousand Zen masters trying to explain to these burger flippers the differences between a Ferrari and a Ford.

Good luck.

In reply to Commie

How many days in the last 5 years have you gone to watch test cricket live or watched 10 entire sessions on tv each match, or listened to every single session of a match live on radio? Does test cricket need a fan like that?

I only went to 2 days my entire life of test cricket could I still be called a fan? I watch end of day highlights only. Would test cricket survive with fans like me?

In reply to Commie

"If it becomes the dominant paradigm I have both football and basketball to watch and plenty memories in the tank."

Don't you see the irony in this statement? It has something to do with what Test is not and why we have T20 in the first place...

In reply to SnoopDog

With an attitude like that you sound like you have the pretentious, faux superior perspective of a beggar trying to interject himself into a debate about financial spreads.

In reply to nick2020

There is no irony when I used paradigm in context before that statement.

I know many peeps who stopped watching the NBA after the rule changes in the 90s. They went back to college ball.

The real irony is that for Test Cricket to die, the devolution of the sport must continue, inc the breakup of West Indies and the relinquishing of the Big 3.

In reply to Commie

With a score line of 60 All out. You still vouching for this relic?

In reply to gvenkat

In T20 there is not much time for a comeback. However if Australia turns around and win this match and series, Test cricket backers will use this same example of how glorious that version of the game is.

In reply to BenGman

It will just show how piss poor both sides are.

If you can boast of the financial strength of a country where over 600 million ppl don't even have a toilet to shit in, I can ignore 60 all out as a sign of Test Crickets resilience.

In reply to gvenkat

Therein lies the intrigue and excitement of test match cricket! In T20, all those outside edges would be flying through the slips for fours!

In reply to Commie

Completely Irrelevant.

In reply to gvenkat

Thats the point.

In reply to Verstehen

Ahhhh shaddup and flip that burger. You got people in the line waiting.

In reply to gvenkat

It's only a relic in Mindia ever since TendOldCar retired.

Test cricket for me too. This is probably because i always prefer good novels with an intriguing storyline to comic books growing up, I hated fast food and my conquests were more rewarding and satisfying if the woman say 'no' 10 times before I conquer. That MO is not about to change anytime soon....

In reply to SnoopDog

Well your broke ass ain't getting any for free.