so how did His death save us???

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link Ayenmol Joined: May 4, 2003
Posts: 7733
4/19/17 4:01:08 PM 
In reply to black

Allow? He was a powerful angel. Why does God allow you to do what you do?

2 Peter 3...
7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.


Jude 6...
6 And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.


All in time sir.

God has allowed sufficient time to put to rest the question raised by Satan and escalated by Adam and Eve's disobedience...Who has the right to rule Mankind?
And can anyone but Jehovah God succesfully rule mankind?

Since then man has tried all forms of Government and Political Structure. Which one has succeeded? When it is all said and done there will be no doubt as to who has the right to rule...not to Humans who gain God's favor or the multitudes of Angels looking on from Heaven.

The matter of God's Sovereignty will be put to rest forever. Powerful Angel and the arrogantly smug among us will be long gone.

Psalms 37:
Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there.
12 The wicked man plots against the righteous; He grinds his teeth at him. But Jehovah will laugh at him, For He knows that his day will come.


I will continue to do as the Psalmist...
34 Hope in Jehovah and follow his way,

link googley Joined: Feb 9, 2004
Posts: 15412
4/19/17 4:42:46 PM 
In reply to SnoopDog

I believe in me! wink

link SnoopDog Joined: Jan 24, 2004
Posts: 6609
4/19/17 5:35:25 PM 
In reply to googley

Yes Pundit Googs. I believe in you and all your other ten thousand gods. lol

link Norm Joined: Nov 28, 2002
Posts: 22366
4/20/17 2:03:16 AM 
In reply to Ayenmol

Thanks for the discussion, bro. We may not agree on everything, but I appreciate the focused discussion.

when he dies there is nothing that survives his death. His life force simply returns to the one who gives it.

Many believers, new and old, think that one's identity survives. They talk about loved ones re-uniting, etc, which requires that your identity survive (how else would you know who you were?). That contradicts the concept of one's life force returning to its source (and thus assuming the identity of the source).

since death is a consequence of sin, then his death is a sacrifice because he was sinless.


How could it be a sacrifice if God effectively guaranteed the return of life to Jesus (according to the Bible)? Did he lose something as a result of being "dead" for 3 days?

BTW, this was the original question of this thread!

Jesus said that the Good news has to be preached in all the Earth before the end.


That would require removing Muslim and Communist governments - both of which are quite unlikely today.

He will be allowed to tempt all those living in perfection on Earth ONCE MORE


Based on the book called Revelation, written by John of Patmos - to predict the doom of the Roman Empire, but then conveniently re-interpreted to refer to the doom of the world. Many Christians frequently attempt to stir up faith in this book, by claiming that it predicts current events, such as the formation and subsequent "failure" of the United Nations to solve the world's problems, etc.

The Book of Revelation, probably more than any other book in the Bible, causes criticism of the Bible as a whole, because it is abstract and incoherent. Organisations such as Jehovah's Witnesses have failed time and again to predict future events, using the contents of Revelation.

I believe there are significant amounts of historical truth in the entire Bible, including events such as the Flood, Exodus, etc, but Revelation is where the theological system breaks down, more than anywhere else, notwithstanding the rise of Protestantism, etc.

link Norm Joined: Nov 28, 2002
Posts: 22366
4/20/17 3:45:03 AM 
In reply to pelon
Most non-believers have evolved out of and not into religion through unfiltered quest.

I see no attempt to engage in meaningful discussion on religious topics by secular individuals. In my opinion, the baseless maligning of religious views is a strong indication of no knowledge of the subject.

Most non-believers evolved? You probably meant that most non-believers "devolved", through selfish indifference to the collective faith of mankind.

The bible is filled with mythology ... The christian bible is religion as seen through the eyes of it's authors


Tell me, which country won World War 2 - Britain, the US or Russia? Is the story of triumph told by each country to its citizens a modern-day mythology? Or is each group telling its own truth? Why would a rational person assume that the Bible, after being translated over and over, would be free from bias? Even today, the many versions is in itself evidence of bias.

Just like we do with Fox, CNN, etc, we have to take the contents of the Bible with a proverbial grain of salt.

Why was the Apocrypha text removed?


Obviously, the books included in the Bible were chosen by men, which again introduces bias. Some chose to exclude the entire Old Testament, mostly to avoid the problems in Genesis, while keeping the even more problematic Revelation! Crazy, in my opinion.

The Apocrypha are generally excluded from the Bible but they are not banned by churches or by law.

Why are many of the miracles attributed to Moses, Jesus and others found in other Ancient text long before they walked on earth?


There are many, many parallels to Bible miracles in Greek mythology, including the power of the cross (crucifix), sacrifice of the son by Zeus, etc. In my opinion, a great deal of the story of Jesus, as told by John, Matthew and Luke (to a lesser extent) was influenced by ideas taken from Greek mythology. I know my religious friends will disagree with this opinion, but that could be discussed in a separate thread.

Christianity is not the birth of religion, it is the birth of a NEW religion. One brought to our forefathers with a sword.


The sword is used today to spread today's dominant philosophies (capitalism, religious extremism, etc). Heck, even the religious types are preaching that God will destroy Satan at some point! So, has mankind collectively, or even in sub-groups, evolved away from "deciding" by the sword as yet?

But, you touch on a most important point, in my opinion. Jesus's main contribution to the world is the concept of "deciding" through forgiveness ("turn the other cheek", "as we forgive those who trespass against us", etc), and not the sword. We have been unable to implement this collectively thus far.

We get carried away with faith, in the hope that the promises will be fulfilled.


True. This is the selfish and unfortunate path chosen by may who claim to be religious. There is a big difference between caring only for one's own soul, and caring for your fellow man.

link Norm Joined: Nov 28, 2002
Posts: 22366
4/20/17 3:49:18 AM 
In reply to SnoopDog
men living inside of a whale

This one has been known to occur with others, even in modern times!

link Runs Joined: Jan 4, 2003
Posts: 45475
4/20/17 6:13:26 AM 
avatar image
[b]In reply to Norm[/b
Excellent analogies cuz

link Emir Joined: Aug 9, 2014
Posts: 6617
4/20/17 7:45:24 AM 
In reply to Norm

I like you entire post- well said.
Look, I am an advocate for man holding religion for critique. The Quran encourages and challenges critique of its words- never minds the actions of fanatics.

I do not debate religion but I respect the faith of others and even those with no faith in God. There are some folks in here who seem only to criticize only Islam and Christianity under the guise of being an atheist, but interestingly they do not criticize Brahmanism- the violent and racist movement that invaded the ancient and peaceful Hinduism.

link googley Joined: Feb 9, 2004
Posts: 15412
4/20/17 11:51:29 AM 
In reply to SnoopDog

just 10 thousand? you need math lessons!! lol

link black Joined: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 25997
4/20/17 12:02:38 PM 
In reply to Ayenmol

Allow? He was a powerful angel. Why does God allow you to do what you do?


Boy, this is real fairytale.

Isn't, God the creator of everything?

link black Joined: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 25997
4/20/17 12:29:04 PM 
In reply to Norm

Tell me, which country won World War 2 - Britain, the US or Russia? Is the story of triumph told by each country to its citizens a modern-day mythology? Or is each group telling its own truth? Why would a rational person assume that the Bible, after being translated over and over, would be free from bias? Even today, the many versions is in itself evidence of bias.

Just like we do with Fox, CNN, etc, we have to take the contents of the Bible with a proverbial grain of salt
.

That's the point, if the words/interpretation of the Bible keep changing, at some point it becomes a lie. How can believers rely on a lie to get to Heaven?

link doosra Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 73843
4/20/17 2:08:40 PM 
avatar image
In reply to DAVE400

in general people's death, esp that of a close one (fam or fren) can change one's life tho

no?

link Ewart Joined: Mar 5, 2005
Posts: 8728
4/20/17 4:50:13 PM 
In reply to doosra



Yes. That, and serious illness.


//

link Ewart Joined: Mar 5, 2005
Posts: 8728
4/20/17 4:51:17 PM 
In reply to Norm



Very good, Norm.


//

link pelon Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 5881
4/20/17 9:29:11 PM 
In reply to Norm
1000+
And most ironic that your reply to me was void of dogma, doctrine, copy and paste verses etc. Like your christian brother Ewart, I celebrate your post.

To this I say wow:

In my opinion, a great deal of the story of Jesus, as told by John, Matthew and Luke (to a lesser extent) was influenced by ideas taken from Greek mythology.


You clearly are closer to pragmatism than dogma, with THAT level of thinking. Kudos to you.

link SnoopDog Joined: Jan 24, 2004
Posts: 6609
4/20/17 9:49:33 PM 
In reply to pelon

Perhaps Norm can do us all a favour and provide evidence of a world wide flood in antiquity and evidence of a mass human migration from ancient Egypt.

The latter should be easy as the ancient Egyptians were a bureaucratic bunch and kept records of pretty much everything.

Oh, also some evidence of men living inside a whale. lol

link Ayenmol Joined: May 4, 2003
Posts: 7733
4/20/17 9:52:45 PM 
In reply to pelon

People who are interested in God don't subscribe to opinion. Jesus himself quoted from the Scriptures.

John 14:...
49 because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak
.

2John...
10 If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him
.

I do not seek kudos for anything I do for Jehovah God. I want you and everyone to search for yourselves. Go read God's word! That is where the truth lies, not in human opinion!

link SnoopDog Joined: Jan 24, 2004
Posts: 6609
4/20/17 10:03:50 PM 
In reply to Ayenmol

One would think that all powerful Mr God would have taken great pains to ensure his Devine word would be so easily comprehensible devoid of any ambiguity or contradictions so that any human being from any part of the planet would be persuaded on a first reading.

But no, the so-called word of god is so ambiguous, so contradictory, so obviously man made that all powerful god has left it up to you to try and persuade us.

Fail. lol

link pelon Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 5881
4/20/17 10:07:26 PM 
In reply to Ayenmol

Did you read the Trump University books you ordered 3 years ago? Not because it is written is it 1. fact or 2. original

Do your thang bro.

PS:
I do not seek kudos for anything I do for Jehovah God.
Why should you? we are all of finite scope - seeking "kudos" should be the LAST thing a man of the cloth does.

link Ayenmol Joined: May 4, 2003
Posts: 7733
4/20/17 10:07:54 PM 
In reply to SnoopDog

You claim enlightenment but are looking to be persuaded? Did your parents have to persuade you to show them honor?

Do your thing dude! It is your right. You do not affect me and my life an iota, much less God.

Go fight your demons.

link SnoopDog Joined: Jan 24, 2004
Posts: 6609
4/20/17 10:09:51 PM 
In reply to Ayenmol

Pray for me to go away! lol

Surely all power god can obey one little order of yours. lol

link Ayenmol Joined: May 4, 2003
Posts: 7733
4/20/17 10:15:13 PM 
In reply to SnoopDog

You are obviously possessed. No one claims disinterest in something then seek it out so fervently.

You post a no trespassing sign to keep people away then sit in your home seeking them out for abuse...sounds kinda demented to me!

link SnoopDog Joined: Jan 24, 2004
Posts: 6609
4/20/17 10:19:06 PM 
In reply to Ayenmol

Oh now you're the victim again. I guess I'll just be the heel who persecutes the poor defenceless Christians and throws them to the library to read other books not written by primitive Bronze Age goat herders. lol

link black Joined: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 25997
4/20/17 10:22:28 PM 
In reply to SnoopDog

One would think that all powerful Mr God would have taken great pains to ensure his Devine word would be so easily comprehensible devoid of any ambiguity or contradictions so that any human being from any part of the planet would be persuaded on a first reading.

But no, the so-called word of god is so ambiguous, so contradictory, so obviously man made that all powerful god has left it up to you to try and persuade us.

Fail.


Exactly. We have a fella in the Whitehouse that is very good at interpreting events his way. lol

link Ayenmol Joined: May 4, 2003
Posts: 7733
4/20/17 10:38:59 PM 
In reply to SnoopDog

You are belligerent, foul mouthed, hateful and illogical. You are wasting my time! The fact that you claim not to care about something yet devote so much time to search out anyone who dares believe and deride them? Kinda sociopathic! Hope you find some peace.

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