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Ramdin is the best keeper in the region Part 1

 
sgtdjones 2017-09-14 09:36:54 

Ramdin is still the best keeper in the region - Part I

The 2017 Hero CPL Tournament has come and gone and the Trinbago Knight Riders have captured the trophy for the second time in five years. Congratulations to Dwayne Bravo and his men! They were the most consistent team by a wide margin and they thoroughly deserved to come away as champions although the final was not smooth sailing.

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sgtdjones 2017-09-14 09:38:15 

Ok lets hear the complaints

In Part two the reason why Ramdin is the best will be explained tomorrow.


cool cool cool

 
silver 2017-09-14 10:08:04 

In reply to sgtdjones


Am sure he's the best keeper now that his had time to reflect
lol lol lol

 
sgtdjones 2017-09-14 10:37:44 

In reply to silver

Reflect on what?

He has saved his money, Financially well off?

He is in management at a large Insurance Company in T&T.

 
SirGarny 2017-09-14 10:45:42 

In reply to sgtdjones


The most experienced....YES...by far...

The best? That's debatable....perhaps because there really isn't enough of a body of work whereby other keepers can be judged....

Is he better than Dowrich? Most certainly...but in all fairness there's such a comparatively small sample by which we can make a proper assessment. If you remember, Ramdin was young once and prone to the same ills that are seen in the young Dowrich.

The question is how many matches are required before we conclude that the position requires serious re-evaluation?

That , my friend, varies from flag-to-flag! wink wink

 
Driva 2017-09-14 11:09:06 

In reply to SirGarny

Prone to the same ills? When was Ramdin ever anything but an excellent keeper?

 
Starzz 2017-09-14 11:31:31 

In reply to SirGarny

That's debatable.


No its not. Its a fact cool

Carlton Baugh lol
Patrick Browne lol
Andre Fletcher lol
Shane Dowrich lol

 
Starzz 2017-09-14 11:33:31 

Reflect on what?

He has saved his money, Financially well off?

He is in management at a large Insurance Company in T&T.


Man know rel info lol lol lol

 
SirGarny 2017-09-14 11:36:12 

In reply to Driva

Prone to the same ills? When was Ramdin ever anything but an excellent keeper?


If you're referring to just glove work...he's always been very good...prone to the occasional missed chance but those were infrequent.

It's with the bat where we can find the disappointment. His test average is 25...compared to MS Dhoni's 38. International average is somewhere in between and Ramdin, it appears, is well below it.

 
Starzz 2017-09-14 12:01:46 

In reply to SirGarny

It's with the bat where we can find the disappointment. His test average is 25...compared to MS Dhoni's 38. International average is somewhere in between and Ramdin, it appears, is well below it.


There you "experts" go again.

Compare him to the WI top order batsmen he has played with.....

He has a better record than over 15....

Ryan Ramdass
Xavier Marshall
Brenton Parchment
Devon Smith
Narsingh Deonarine
Donovan Pagon
Sewnarine Chattergoon
Lendl Simmons
Dale Richards
Leon Johnson
Rajendra Chadrika
Shimron Hetmyer
Vishaul SIngh
Daren Ganga
Dwayne Smith
Kieron Powell
Kyle Hope

See the others for yourself...

Link Text

Don't see you experts comparing Kraigg Braithwaite or Shai Hope averages to Virat Kholi 40+?


cool

 
thefacts 2017-09-14 12:08:41 

In reply to Starzz

BOOT LICKERS LOGIC:

Powell: Opening Batsmen
15 Tests, 29 innings, NO SCORE OF 50
Career Average:21
BOOT LICKERS OK to give him more games

Ramdin: Best WK
is dropped for a batting avg of 25
SUPREME IRONY, Ramdins last two Test innings were 50+ scores

So For the BOOT LICKERS, 21 > 25

FUNNY AS FCUK

HA HA HA

 
thefacts 2017-09-14 12:09:06 

In reply to Starzz

By the way, GOOD POST.

RESPECT

 
Gun_Play 2017-09-14 12:11:01 

In reply to Starzz

You do realise those batsmen are no longer in the team.

So if they get dropped for not batting then Ramdin should take a hint.

Time to try Walton, Hamilton etc...

He had his chances.

 
Starzz 2017-09-14 12:11:10 

In reply to thefacts

Ramdin: Best WK
is dropped for a batting avg of 25

So For the BOOT LICKERS, 21 > 25


You couldn't be more accurate lol

 
Priapus 2017-09-14 12:13:15 

In reply to Starzz

Oh wow!! There are actually boot lickers from the big(ger) dots on that list. And here i was thinking that boot lickers only came from the small(er) dots.

 
Starzz 2017-09-14 12:25:29 

In reply to Gun_Play

Kyle Hope is on the team his average is..?
Kieron Powell is on the team his average is...?

According to people like you the standard for Denesh Ramdin a keeper/batsmen must be an average 40+ like Dhoni

But its acceptable for the top order batsmen like Kraigg Braithwaite & Shai Hope to be averaging weak 30s rolleyes

Why don't you compare them to A.Cook or Shikar Dhawan or Rohit Sharma? Why not hold the top order to same standards?

 
Starzz 2017-09-14 12:26:50 

In reply to Priapus

And here i was thinking that boot lickers only came from the small(er) dots.


lol lol lol

 
natty_forever 2017-09-14 12:40:21 

In reply to Priapus... guess you did not know the meaning of a boot-licker. Definition: any player from any island that should have been dropped yet continues to play despite not even scoring a half century in how many innings.

big grin

 
Starzz 2017-09-14 12:45:05 

Let's start comparing Kraigg Braithwaite & Shai Hope stats to guys like this
Link Text

Top order average should be no less than 40+
Don't be a hypocrite wink

 
Priapus 2017-09-14 12:46:35 

In reply to natty_forever

Definition: any player from any island that should have been dropped yet continues to play despite not even scoring a half century in how many innings.


Any player or any batsman? What is the boot-licking equivalent for "players" who average 40+ with the ball?

 
granite 2017-09-14 12:46:40 

In reply to thefacts
"FUNNY AS FCUK"is correct.

lol

 
TWX 2017-09-14 12:47:41 

There is no way Ramdin is a better keeper than Hamilton. No way!

 
Starzz 2017-09-14 12:52:54 

In reply to Priapus

What is the boot-licking equivalent for "players" who average 40+ with the ball?


Daren Powell, Adam Sanford, Sulieman Benn
or even Roston Chase lol lol lol

 
Starzz 2017-09-14 12:54:09 

In reply to TWX

Yes way! Yes way!

lol lol lol

 
SirGarny 2017-09-14 13:15:13 

In reply to Starzz

There you "experts" go again. Compare him to the WI top order batsmen he has played with.....


Could you imagine how terrible his average would look if I compared him to the best wicketkeeper / batsman of this generation, Kumar Sangakarra...whose average is well over 50!

He has a better record than over 15....


Ryan Ramdass
Xavier Marshall
[quote]Brenton Parchment
Devon Smith
Narsingh Deonarine
Donovan Pagon
Sewnarine Chattergoon
Lendl Simmons
Dale Richards
Leon Johnson
Rajendra Chadrika
Shimron Hetmyer
Vishaul SIngh
Daren Ganga
Dwayne Smith
Kieron Powell
Kyle Hope


Good point....

but Ramdin has played more test matches than all the aforementioned combined. Furthermore, Shiv was usually the batsman to greet him when he came to the crease so more often than not Ramdin has had a steady and more experienced hand to partner with....

 
Priapus 2017-09-14 13:15:40 

In reply to Starzz
You forgot Rawl Lewis and Rajindra Dhanraj
big grin

 
TWX 2017-09-14 13:16:12 

In reply to Starzz

If you believe that, then I have a bridge from the US to China to sell you. Ask Dujon what he thinks. He knows a thing or two about wicket keeping.

 
Starzz 2017-09-14 13:21:05 

In reply to Priapus

List was way to long big grin

 
SirGarny 2017-09-14 13:56:45 

In reply to Starzz


According to people like you the standard for Denesh Ramdin a keeper/batsmen must be an average 40+ like Dhoni


I only brought that up to compare how his position performs on the international stage and for the purpose of and informed discussion. We're not talking about the the current selection policies that bedevil the current West Indies team.

If Dohni at 38 is considered good, Sangakarra at 50+ is considered exceptional, then low thirties would then be considered average.....and for Ramdin to sit in the mid twenties after 126 test innings, that's probably considered below par... cry

 
imusic 2017-09-14 13:59:10 

In reply to SirGarny

but Ramdin has played more test matches than all the aforementioned combined.

Sometimes...the more matches you play...the less your average gets

POINT used to say that he will not rest until Devon Smith gets the same number of chances as Darren Ganga. And we all know POINT


Ganga played 48 test matches and averaged 25.71
Devon Smith played 38 test matches and averaged 24.50

In 2003 when Devon made his debut, he averaged 32.50
In 2004 his average dipped to 30.8
2005 it was 28.84
2007 it slipped to 24.88. See the pattern?

He ended up at 24.50

It's not easy to raise your average. One would think the more matches one plays, the more opportunity there is to raise one's batting average. Often....it's the opposite. The more one plays, the lower or more stagnant the average gets

BTW...we doh hear from POINT anymore on Devon Smith

 
Starzz 2017-09-14 13:59:58 

In reply to SirGarny

but Ramdin has played more test matches than all the aforementioned combined.


Atleast be honest.
Everyone knows Daren Ganga played almost 50 tests
Kieron Powell has now played 27 tests.

shiv was usually the batsman to greet him when he came to the crease so more often than not Ramdin


Wrong again... Batsmen that were greeted by Shiv most of their career are men like Deonarine, Marlon Samuels, Dwayne Bravo, Brendon Nash most recent Blackwood.

When he got that chance he made use of it
At no.6 Denesh Ramdin 18inns 547runs average 32.17
Just use the filter scroll down
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no.7 - no.9 with the tail
Denesh Ramdin 2314 runs avg 24.88
Again just use the filter
Link Text

But he did manage performances like this he batted for 2 hrs with the tail to give West Indies a test series win vs England
Link Text

Try and post stats espncricinfo there for a reason

cool cool cool cool

 
imusic 2017-09-14 14:06:55 

In reply to TWX

Ask Dujon what he thinks. He knows a thing or two about wicket keeping.

Jeffrey Dujon had a stellar career behind the stumps for West Indies

He is RIGHTFULLY regarded as one of our legendary cricketers on a legendary, once in a lifetime type of team

He was the right guy at the right time.

BUT

Dujon was a batsman who was thrust into the role of wicketkeeper and through athleticism and hard work, became exactly what his team needed.

However, Dujon wasn't a good keeper against spin. He was average at best with stumping. He hardly if ever kept up to the stumps. And given the West Indies bowling attack during his time....he didn't have to be any of those things. It simply wasn't needed.

Maybe Jeffrey Dujon is the absolute best scholar and most knowledgeable person on the planet with regards to knowing what makes a great keeper and who is better than whom. I don't know

But if you're basing Dujon's knowledge SOLELY on his performances with the West Indies team and believe that to automatically translate into him being an expert on who is the best keeper....I would argue that is not necessarily the case at all.

 
Starzz 2017-09-14 14:08:36 

In reply to SirGarny

If Dohni at 38 is considered good, Sangakarra at 50+ is considered exceptional, then low thirties would then be considered average.....and for Ramdin to sit in the mid twenties after 126 test innings, that's probably considered below par...


And how will our top order over past decade be considered?

Your forgetting the key point Dhoni & Sangkara didn't spend their careers at no.7-no.9 they didn't play over a 100 innings batting with the tail with their team struggling consistently at 150+ for 7

 
imusic 2017-09-14 14:19:45 

In reply to Starzz

At the end of the day 3 questions:

1 - Can Ramdin bat? The answer for me is...he most definitely can. He's a pretty good batsman

2 - Has he under performed with the bat for West Indies? For me, the answer is yes. We can say he batting with the tail, he comes in too low etc. But for me....given his ability....he has under performed.

3 - Who is the best wicketkeeper batsman in the region? The answer for me is unquestionably Ramdin. Ramdin is not perfect with the gloves. No one is. But he is consistently the best IMO. And with the West Indies team so inexperienced....he would be an asset to the team.

OFF THE FIELD....Ramdin has sometimes done himself no favors and I believe this contributes greatly to his being ostracized from the West Indies cricket team. I think it's short sighted by the powers that be but it is what it is.

 
openning 2017-09-14 14:27:41 

In reply to sgtdjones

Was Ramdin dropped because of his Keeping or his batting?
Teams are looking for a Dhoni, Gilchrist type keeper.
If Shai can keep in ODI, why not replace Dowrich with either a solid Allrounder or a batsman?

 
Andy99 2017-09-14 14:49:43 

In reply to SirGarny

Could you imagine how terrible his average would look if I compared him to the best wicketkeeper / batsman of this generation, Kumar Sangakarra...whose average is well over 50!


Sangakarra averaged 40.48 as a wicket keeper batsman in Test.
The anomalies that were Glichrist and Flower top the charts.

Young guys like D Kock and Birstow getting up there.

 
natty_forever 2017-09-14 14:50:47 

In reply to Starzz

When he got that chance he made use of it
At no.6 Denesh Ramdin 18inns 547runs average 32.17
... always told them our wkt-keeper must bat at 6.

big grin

 
imusic 2017-09-14 14:51:00 

In reply to openning

Teams are looking for a Dhoni, Gilchrist type keeper.

Meanwhile....west indies looking for a Dhoni, Gilchrist type batsman confused

 
natty_forever 2017-09-14 14:53:19 

In reply to imusic

At the end of the day 3 questions:

1 - Can Ramdin bat? The answer for me is...he most definitely can. He's a pretty good batsman

2 - Has he under performed with the bat for West Indies? For me, the answer is yes. We can say he batting with the tail, he comes in too low etc. But for me....given his ability....he has under performed.

3 - Who is the best wicketkeeper batsman in the region? The answer for me is unquestionably Ramdin. Ramdin is not perfect with the gloves. No one is. But he is consistently the best IMO. And with the West Indies team so inexperienced....he would be an asset to the team.

OFF THE FIELD....Ramdin has sometimes done himself no favors and I believe this contributes greatly to his being ostracized from the West Indies cricket team. I think it's short sighted by the powers that be but it is what it is.
... Natty has stolen iMusics handle for a one post.

 
Andy99 2017-09-14 14:54:05 

And should Ramdin have made more runs? Yes.

With Dowrich knocking on the door with regional performers was it the right thing to give him an opportunity? Yes but the timing was not right as Ramdin made back to back fifties.

Should Ramdin be compared to players from other countries? Sure but when it comes to selecting the WI team he should be compared to who we have as all the players should.

 
NYCGURU 2017-09-14 15:43:30 

In reply to imusic

Take a bow and go to the head of the class. IMO, You have hit it out of the park.

 
doublecentury 2017-09-14 16:53:42 

Ramdin was not dropped because of his keeping or his batting....he was dropped for non cricketing reasons after the India tour fiasco...of course there was no disciplinary process just as there wasn't for pollard or Bravo....but comrade Dave don't like them

 
openning 2017-09-14 17:04:52 

In reply to doublecentury

The seniors that I will support are, Gayle, Samuels, Russell and Narine.
I like Pollard, but he and Bigb, are league cricketers

 
Starzz 2017-09-14 19:14:41 

In reply to doublecentury

Ramdin was not dropped because of his keeping or his batting....he was dropped for non cricketing reasons after the India tour fiasco...of course there was no disciplinary process just as there wasn't for pollard or Bravo....but comrade Dave don't like them
cool

 
Starzz 2017-09-14 19:15:31 

In reply to Andy99

Should Ramdin be compared to players from other countries? Sure but when it comes to selecting the WI team he should be compared to who we have as all the players should.


Well said!
cool

 
aliaskid13 2017-09-15 14:36:18 

In reply to doublecentury

Ramdin was not dropped because of his keeping or his batting....he was dropped for non cricketing reasons after the India tour fiasco...of course there was no disciplinary process just as there wasn't for pollard or Bravo....but comrade Dave don't like them


A gold star for this lol

Sometimes the easy answer really is the correct answer. Had nothing to do with batting avg. All of them that had a hand to play in that india debacle eventually got the ax.

 
Starzz 2017-09-15 15:27:02 

In reply to aliaskid13

cool