DNA: humans and chimps

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link Runs Joined: Jan 4, 2003
Posts: 46244
10/6/17 11:14:26 AM 
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A belief in evolution is almost inconsistent with a belief in a privileged human soul (theism's 'cosmological constant' requiring a God). It suggests that, at some recent and arbitrary point in history 'God' intervened and inserted a soul in humans. That makes no sense (nor does a 'loving' interventionist creator). What makes more sense is that there is, ultimately, just one 'soul' or 'ground of being' or 'substrate consciousness' and that we are all aspects of it and profoundly interconnected. An eternal 'soul' almost requires a creationist perspective but that is contradicted by the clear evidence of evolution.

link doosra Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 74992
10/6/17 11:16:25 AM 
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In that Debate i think it was ...Peter Hitchens asked an interesting question

i paraphrase

why is it wrong to consider an alternative universe from the scientific

i think it's an interesting question

link Ayenmol Joined: May 4, 2003
Posts: 7867
10/6/17 11:17:52 AM 
In reply to pelon

The bible is a beautiful document but it is NOT a document to explain the science of creation. That does not discredit the bible, it simply puts it in context


Except that is not fact. That is simply your quantifying something that you have determine you do not want to conform to.
You are unable to dispute what i said. You are unable to dispute the inique approach and wisdom of the Bible and how there is no other like it. Not even other so called divine writings are comparable to it!
you know that but you do not ask yourself why? You do not care to search why.

Because it is Gospel. You dont want gospel. Science does not judge you, Evolution allows you to do exactly what the Bible tells you your Creator says is futile. So you prfer that which allows your conscience to be clear...although it is not clear...but you fight it. That is why you all just cant stand Religion and the thought of others who hold you accountable by it.

Do you notice that all of you on here preaching evolution share that same thread? Fear of being judged?

BTW...The Bible says that when we die we go to the grave, not heaven or Hell...

Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.”


There are two words used in the bible that modern translators render as "hell". Hebrew word She'ohl and Greek Hai'des. That is it! Some translators transliterate these as "HELL", "THE GRAVE", "WORLD OF THE DEAD". Those words simply refer to the common grave!
One other word that was used by Jesus was the Greek "ge en·na" which Jesus used to signify eternal Destruction.

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish


Job 14:13, Dy: “[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?”


Was job asking that God torment him in Hell? No. Job was suffering and was willing to die to ESCAPE this suffering...why would he want to go to a place of torment to escape what he was going through?

Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”

Why would there be another judgment if the dead is acquitted of his sin...or has paid the penalty for sin?


Nowhere in the Bible does it share a hope that people who die with God's favor go to a gate in heaven to be judged...

John 4
13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.


Keep in mind Jesus lived after David Abraham, Enoch (who the Bible said was taken by God and some associate that to mean he was taken to Heaven) and many other faithful men many of whom wrote or were written about in the Bible. But Jesus said not one of them entered heaven prior to his coming to earth. So where are they?

So much of what you are saying are simply different versions of what you believe. Falsehood!

So if you do not understand the Scriptures and want to tout Evolution that is your perogative, but don't associate me with Pagan beliefs and pass it off as Bible teachings.

link pelon Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 6478
10/6/17 11:22:06 AM 
Ayenmol, cut all the sideshow bullshit, let us investigate 'facts' as written:

This thread is about Mythic explanation compared to a scientific explanation.

Do you believe that man came from soil/clay, and woman came from the rib of man, as documented in Genesis?

Yes or No.

I am no Oracle, but I am pretty sure you accept that story in Genesis as a FACT.

link Ayenmol Joined: May 4, 2003
Posts: 7867
10/6/17 11:23:18 AM 
In reply to pelon

yEs! I believe the Bible's Creation account 100%.

link black Joined: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 27242
10/6/17 11:30:57 AM 
In reply to pelon

lol lol lol


yEs! I believe the Bible's Creation account 100%


Yuh see he put ah small "y".

link pelon Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 6478
10/6/17 11:32:16 AM 
In reply to Ayenmol

I believe the Bible's Creation account 100%.


Ok, I respect that.

#humblethyself: my disposition and opinion is irrelevant and meaningless in the grand scheme.

I neither seek to change your faith based beliefs, nor do I seek to disrespect religious based explanations. They work well, and on many levels for MOST. ALL I ever do is ADD to the dialogue additional information - outside the bible.
You have the one and only document YOU will ever need: "the word of god". Big up.

Take comfort in your faith and wisdom and PROSPER in the good deeds of your heart.

link bravos Joined: Oct 14, 2009
Posts: 33900
10/6/17 12:55:18 PM 

link Norm Joined: Nov 28, 2002
Posts: 22707
10/6/17 1:49:07 PM 
In reply to pelon
Faith is required BECAUSE proof is not always possible. It is equally dogmatic to believe that science could prove anything.

The main pillars of modern day science cannot be proven and therefore have to be taken on faith and circumstantial evidence, which makes science a competing system of faith with religion.

The structure of atoms, the existence of black holes, Einstein's theory of relativity, etc, cannot be proven - generally because of the limitations of human senses. Yet we generally accept conclusions based on what we could only assume to be an approximate truth at best.

Ultimately, faith is a requirement for human progress. The notion that science is absolute truth that is devoid of faith is itself absolute fiction!

Religion urges faith in matters related to the interaction of intelligent creatures exercising free will - a matter that computer science is now starting to grapple with - in the area of artificial intelligence.

link pelon Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 6478
10/6/17 2:02:37 PM 
In reply to Norm

Don't take the quantum leap from "made from Clay" to "Artificial Intelligence" supported only by the bible.

Ultimately, faith is a requirement for human progress.
agree*
Faith as YOU define it is FAITH in a process (any and all).
Faith as Religious Zealots define it is a belief in the exclusive evidence of the bible. Faith for them is a spiritual commitment.
This dichotomy - though clear - has been precluded from the dialog here.

Faith scientific discovery has a completely different context than Ayenmol's faith. His discovery is SEALED.

link Ninetenjack Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 1703
10/6/17 2:21:03 PM 
In reply to Ayenmol


yEs! I believe the Bible's Creation account 100%.


You shouldn't sweat religion and science so much, it shouldn't be an either or situation. It's my profound belief that one day science will prove some components of religion to be accurate and absolutely true.

For me the bible is written in parables so one should guard against literal interpretations. Didn't Jesus himself say I have many more things to teach you but you are not ready. Certain things will be revealed in time, as society through the massive infusion of technology becomes more accepting and aware.

The most important thing to have in these times is an open mind that will allow you to accept discussions, debates and ultimately discover new things.

I believe in evolution.... big grin...my thinking and positions on various subjects are constantly evolving.

link black Joined: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 27242
10/6/17 5:13:42 PM 
In reply to Ayenmol

A little off topic but why are some pastor crooks? Isn't the word strong enough to keep them honest? They cannot plea ignorance, they know the bible inside out.

link Runs Joined: Jan 4, 2003
Posts: 46244
10/6/17 5:18:45 PM 
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In reply to black

They do not see themselves as crooks, they find scripture that allows their behavior. Be they an Imam, Pastor or Pundit.

link black Joined: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 27242
10/6/17 5:24:49 PM 
In reply to Runs

They do not see themselves as crooks, they find scripture that allows their behavior. Be they an Imam, Pastor or Pundit


Even when the bible clearly says not to commit adultery and not to steal?

The Quran might be different on marriage.

link Ayenmol Joined: May 4, 2003
Posts: 7867
10/6/17 6:04:20 PM 
In reply to Ninetenjack
1 Kings 18...
21 Then E·lijah approached all the people and said: “How long will you be limping between two different opinions?* If Jehovah is the true God, follow him; but if Baʹal is, follow him!” But the people did not say a word in answer to him.


Exodus 20...
5 You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation of those who hate me,


Wishy washy has no place in service to God.

Philippians 1:...
10 that you may make sure of the more important things, so that you may be flawless and not stumbling others up to the day of Christ

Do you say to your wife, am just hanging with you until a better woman comes along? No! You fall in love and you commit! That is what service to God requires.
As the Creator that is what he deserves!

link nickoutr Joined: Mar 21, 2008
Posts: 10161
10/6/17 6:07:40 PM 
In reply to Ayenmol
amen to that!!! and all your posts on this tread
smile

link Ayenmol Joined: May 4, 2003
Posts: 7867
10/6/17 6:10:24 PM 
In reply to black

2 Timothy 3:...
13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.


1 Timothy 4...
4 However, the inspired word* clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements* and teachings of demons,


Revelation 12:..
9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.


Revelation 20:...
10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

link Ayenmol Joined: May 4, 2003
Posts: 7867
10/6/17 6:46:11 PM 
In reply to Norm

Faith is required BECAUSE proof is not always possible. It is equally dogmatic to believe that science could prove anything


I think you mean everything.
How would science have proven gravity without knowing it's effect?

They still do not understand exactly what electricity is!

The wind, they know is moving air, but they do not know why it is here.

The Bible says the Heavens declare the Glory of God, and the work of His hands the expanse is telling.
How are we able to not see these things but understand they exist? Because we "see" their effect!
We also see the effect that God has. We see it in his Word. We see it in ourselves when we apply his word. We see it in others who apply his word.

We see it in the prophecies fulfilled and being fulfilled. We see it in the state of affairs today that was prophesied about!
So no, we do not see Jehovah, but like the other things he created that we can't see, we feel his presence!

Not one concept that is the embodiment of the THEORY of evolution can be, or has been duplicated, replicated, demonstrated or quantatively seen in this World! Star trek is more believable than Evolution, a piecing together of oddities in fossils with the imaginative mind of eccentric people.

We know and Science proves that there are forces we cannot see, touch or taste that is all around us and affect our lives... Yet we find it so hard to believe that among those is a Supreme Being?

Whereas not one concept of the big bang or Evolution Theory outside of a designer can be seen in anything we know or can prove...but it's the belief in God that is farfetched?

Amazing!

link black Joined: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 27242
10/7/17 8:48:17 AM 
In reply to Ayenmol

How could God have created the infinite Universe? It always existed, everything else came after.

All forces/energy in the universe is physical, it is impossible to wish something and make it happen. There is not a spiritual force, at least it has not been demonstrated or proven.

How could God exist everywhere in an infinite universe?

link Ayenmol Joined: May 4, 2003
Posts: 7867
10/7/17 10:17:37 AM 
In reply to black

How could God have created the infinite Universe? It always existed, everything else came after.
How could God exist everywhere in an infinite universe?


Am not sure how you are forming your mouth to make those statements ... The Bible does not say how much of the "Universe" Jehovah created. But it does say he created Heaven and Earth. Am not going to sit here and argue how that is because i do not know. But for you to claim you know is quite disengenuous.

All forces/energy in the universe is physical, it is impossible to wish something and make it happen. There is not a spiritual force, at least it has not been demonstrated or proven.


Umm again am not sure where you getthe authority to make such blanket statements! It does not compute to your thoughts on evolution. Everything we know has a start somewhere. Everything we know and interact with is of a physical nature.

But we do not know where they come from...Evolution does not explain them at all! How is it that earth is the only planet that has breathable air? How is it that air does not escape into space? Am not asking the physical how, but the reason why these laws that govern them exist.

You Evolutionist claim that we evolved to adapt to our surroundings...does air have dna? a mind to decide what is best for it? what was it about the Earth that made it "evolve" to where it saw the need to develop a gravitational pull to keep things in it's atmosphere that makes life possible? Is it aware of other Planets not having these things and fearful that they may take away it's precious assets?

We may not understand how God can be omnipresent...but we do have things that are not "physical" in many ways, that are! Gravity! Electricity! Air! How are these things everywhere around us? How are they able to affect everything on Earth while we PHYSICAL beings can only affect things we have a hold of?

We have many things right here on Earth that behave in a manner equal to what God has presented himself as being. But nothing that does what Evolution purport or exizt in inanimate things the way they do in living things that evolutionist claim spurs this mutation among the living.

Evolution answers none of these things. And the mere fact that you would call yourself a Scientific person while making blanket statements of things that are yet to be proven either way? hmm.

Shows your motive i think.

link black Joined: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 27242
10/7/17 10:28:44 AM 
In reply to Ayenmol

.. The Bible does not say how much of the "Universe" Jehovah created. But it does say he created Heaven and Earth
.

What exactly is heaven?


You Evolutionist claim that we evolved to adapt to our surroundings...does air have dna? a mind to decide what is best for it? what was it about the Earth that made it "evolve" to where it saw the need to develop a gravitational pull to keep things in it's atmosphere that makes life possible?


Isn't there a simple explanation for gravitational force?

link Ayenmol Joined: May 4, 2003
Posts: 7867
10/7/17 10:46:35 AM 
In reply to black

Isn't there a simple explanation for gravitational force?


There is...But where did this law come from?

There are laws governing light, speed. sound etc that are the same on Earth as they are in space...(dont bother argue sound and space)yet only earth has Air and Gravity but they do not preceed the laws in Space...ie. even with the extra laws of physics on Earth it does not interfere with the laws affecting these same features in space. Why? Unless there was collaboration of some kind why is it that the laws on Earth that govern life work in harmony with forces outside our realm and perfectly utilize these?

How does Newton's law equate in the Big Bang by the way? How is it that a force so strong to cause all the perfect conditions for life on Earth did not spill even a tiny bit onto Venus or Mars?

What of the moon? How did it form? Why do moons only revolve around individual Planets? While Suns solar Systems? Was there a force independent of the big bang that went around organizing these things so that all over the Universe they all interact with each other the same way?

link black Joined: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 27242
10/7/17 11:16:01 AM 
In reply to Ayenmol

There are laws governing light, speed. sound etc that are the same on Earth as they are in space...(dont bother argue sound and space)yet only earth has Air and Gravity but they do not preceed the laws in Space...ie. even with the extra laws of physics on Earth it does not interfere with the laws affecting these same features in space. Why? Unless there was collaboration of some kind why is it that the laws on Earth that govern life work in harmony with forces outside our realm and perfectly utilize these?


Isn't that what makes the earth unique? Maybe that explains why there is life on earth and not on other KNOWN planets.


Why do moons only revolve around individual Planets? While Suns solar Systems? Was there a force independent of the big bang that went around organizing these things so that all over the Universe they all interact with each other the same way?


Our moon is basically held captive by our planet. The structure of the universe has to do with size and mass, the sun would be too massive to be held captive by a planet.

link Ayenmol Joined: May 4, 2003
Posts: 7867
10/7/17 11:52:05 AM 
In reply to black

Our moon is basically held captive by our planet. The structure of the universe has to do with size and mass, the sun would be too massive to be held captive by a planet.


I like how you answer without answering. Just a response to claim response but no substance.

I guess the only reason the sun is not held captive by a Planet is because of size. Are there any Planets out there bigger than our Sun? Do they hold any suns hostage? What holds the other Planets in place where they are?

If it was all a matter of chance does it not stand to reason that each Planet and solar system would have it's own laws? Yet no matter where you go the same laws govern them all...seems like Design to me!

Since the same laws are present in this vast Universe, why has the big bang not replicated itself any where else in these billions of solar systems? Or are they too young to be affected by this once in a trillion occurrence?

link pelon Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 6478
10/7/17 12:52:33 PM 
In reply to Ayenmol

You can play around in a sandbox of pseudoscience all afternoon. But at some point, you will get sand in your eyes.

Few here will waste time to pluck out your nonsense.

yet only earth has Air and Gravity

1. THAT is not factual. You should know better. (You are getting like BatQuake/ToldUso now.)

Why do moons only revolve around individual Planets? While Suns solar Systems?

2. Gravity is the force that keeps planets in orbit around the Sun. Black is correct about mass/density, size as factors for positional orbit.
3. Moons are not around every planet. Mars has two, Venus has none. Our solar system is not the ONLY solar system.

Importantly, the solar system has many moons, a fact not acknowledged in the bible.
The bible mentions the word 'moon' 51 times. First is Genesis 37:9, last in Revelation 21:23
EVERY time throughout the entire bible the word moon is SINGULAR. Not once, not one single time is the word "moons" used in the bible. This is due to the observations of man at the time, and therefore NOT the word of god a creator...

Conversely, the bible mentions the word 'stars' 51 times. First in Genesis 1:16, last in Revelation 12:4 Each time 'stars' are mentioned it is reflective of the observations of man.

why has the big bang not replicated itself

4. The 'big bang' is a singular event. To put it in layman's (like pelon) terms: a single stick of dynamite can only explode ONCE. The forces that create the explosion themselves expire BECAUSE of the explosion. The big bang is a scientific explanation of the birth of the universe. UNLIKE the word of your god, it is not gospel. It changes as new details are revealed via robust investigation.

5. The bible did a WOEFUL job dating the age of earth, listing it as being less than 8000 years old. (timelines in Genesis).

So Ayenmol, as I respect your potent defense of the bible - try and be open-minded. A single document can never be the only source of knowledge.

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