Walco..This guy is already more suited for WI

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link DIEHARD Joined: Jan 12, 2006
Posts: 5649
10/6/17 11:33:37 AM 
Head coach wuk than Otis ever could be.

Its not about skin colour..its about respecting the players and their efforts

Phil also did the same thing.

Exhibit A

link DIEHARD Joined: Jan 12, 2006
Posts: 5649
10/6/17 11:36:20 AM 
Law agreed that seniors like Gayle and fellow Jamaican Marlon Samuels were expected to perform, but the two most experienced players could also prove effective by mentoring team-mates during a match, which was the best form of coaching.


Moforking common sense that has eluded Otis and the WI cricket administration in the past.

What a breath of fresh air..to hear good sense coming out of a WI coach's mouth!!!! Pretty much like Phil before him.

The only way colour might factor in...is with the likes of Cameron and the rest of wannabe massas..who now more likely to listen to a foreigner, than to one of their own ..Phil

link doosra Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 74992
10/6/17 11:38:34 AM 
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In reply to DIEHARD

to be fair Marlon cannot mentor anything more than his shoe lace big grin

link natty_forever Joined: Apr 28, 2003
Posts: 43559
10/6/17 11:52:16 AM 
In reply to doosra... I will not have you refer to players as shoe lace.

big grin

link DIEHARD Joined: Jan 12, 2006
Posts: 5649
10/6/17 12:09:11 PM 
In reply to doosra

No disagreement there..but dont label them all worthless

link sunfish Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Posts: 1845
10/6/17 1:58:54 PM 
I'm glad Law mentioned Beaton because I think he would make a good death ODI bowler.

link Headley Joined: Dec 2, 2007
Posts: 7043
10/6/17 2:06:58 PM 
In reply to sunfish

Better than Cummins or Holder for sure.

link doosra Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 74992
10/6/17 7:50:11 PM 
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link doosra Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 74992
10/6/17 7:51:36 PM 
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link Walco Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 5318
10/7/17 4:21:16 AM 
In reply to DIEHARD

I can’t keep up with you bredrin. I raised issues concerning Gibson’s tenure as coach and instead of addressing them directly, you start another thread pointing to a white coach who said essentially what Gibson said about the senior players. The white coach is lauded, but Gibson is derided. Perhaps you should go back and reread exactly what Gibson said.

But it’s obvious from some of your words and statements that your issues with Gibson are personal. I have neither the time nor inclination to help you with that one. But there are professionals who can help you smile

link DIEHARD Joined: Jan 12, 2006
Posts: 5649
10/7/17 6:54:26 AM 
In reply to Walco

Wow.

Show me where Law said we lost because of the senior players.

Show me where Gibson said the senior players are important to the team.

As a manager, leader, coach.. it's not what you say, but how you say it

link imusic Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Posts: 65847
10/7/17 10:05:37 AM 
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In reply to DIEHARD

The white coach is lauded, but Gibson is derided.


For Walco, you may also put it lthusly:

The bajan Gibson is lauded, but the white coach is derided cool

link Walco Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 5318
10/7/17 2:39:38 PM 
In reply to imusic

Stay out of big people business nuh man. I have nuff time for for Coach Law, just like I did for Phil. Stop projecting your insularity onto other people.

The only criticism I have thus far is that I have not seen any signs of improved fielding.

link Walco Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 5318
10/7/17 3:03:18 PM 
In reply to DIEHARD

I will address your last post after you address this from the other thread you ran from to start this one.

In reply to DIEHARD

There are stages of success.

Step one should be, which coach got the players to buy into his philosophy, and who gained their trust and respect.

Otis didnt even do that, so you cant even consider him a partial success.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Gibson win a T20 World Cup? Also, the team's fielding and bowling improved under Gibson.

Phil did that at least, and got some wins.

Phil Simmons, who was taught by Gibson in England when he was studying for his coaching certification, will tell anyone who listens that he built on the foundation put in place by Gibson. Ask Phil the next time you see him.

You have to at least get the players on your side first, then you can look at if your methodologies actually achieve success on the field.

All of the players were on Gibson's side until he started demanding proper physical and mental preparation, and began holding players accountable for their own performances. Then certain players started complaining that lifting weights and too much aerobic conditioning, etc.

Prior to his stint as WI head coach, Jimmy Adams warned Gibson not to take the job because he (as a black man) would not get the requisite respect from the players and administration. Not long after taking the WI head coaching job, Gibson was told by a star player that he could not tell that player what to do because Gibson was just a black boy.

Look man, Gibson told the WI players the same things Phil told them and the same things Law is telling them now. The only difference is that because of Law's complexion the players and administrators are more likely to listen.

link DIEHARD Joined: Jan 12, 2006
Posts: 5649
10/9/17 9:57:15 AM 
In reply to Walco

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Gibson win a T20 World Cup? Also, the team's fielding and bowling improved under Gibson.


Where are the stats to support your assertion that bowling and fielding improved under Gibson?

Only a fool will not acknowledge the fact that WI T-20 success has absolutely nothing at all to do with WI administration, they have put nothing in place to ensure success in this format, they just happened along and reaped the fruit, they didnt plant a single seed.

The players that won the T-20 were some of the same players that Gibson discarded.

Phil Simmons, who was taught by Gibson in England when he was studying for his coaching certification, will tell anyone who listens that he built on the foundation put in place by Gibson. Ask Phil the next time you see him.


Relevance? Taught him cricket maybe...did he teach him man management skills as well? And regardless of what Gibson taught who..he badly mismanaged his players when WI head coach

All of the players were on Gibson's side until he started demanding proper physical and mental preparation, and began holding players accountable for their own performances. Then certain players started complaining that lifting weights and too much aerobic conditioning, etc.

Prior to his stint as WI head coach, Jimmy Adams warned Gibson not to take the job because he (as a black man) would not get the requisite respect from the players and administration. Not long after taking the WI head coaching job, Gibson was told by a star player that he could not tell that player what to do because Gibson was just a black boy.

Look man, Gibson told the WI players the same things Phil told them and the same things Law is telling them now. The only difference is that because of Law's complexion the players and administrators are more likely to listen.


I dunno what all of that mumbo jumbo rubbish about what Jimmy said to Otis has to do with anything. You actually just proved my point

Here

All of the players were on Gibson's side until he started demanding proper physical and mental preparation


He couldn't get his best players to buy into his vision..thus..failure..

link natty_forever Joined: Apr 28, 2003
Posts: 43559
10/9/17 10:04:19 AM 
In reply to DIEHARD... he fail cause he black, them telling you? I thought one would use his Test or ODI stats as a measure.

link Walco Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 5318
10/9/17 10:40:34 AM 
In reply to natty_forever
... he fail cause he black, them telling you?

It's not that complicated my friend. Gibson, like the coaches who preceded and followed him, did not get the job done because of deficiencies in talent, discipline and commitment, among other things. Now watch what happens with the South Africa team for a case study in what happens when great coaching meets talent, discipline and commitment to excellence smile
I thought one would use his Test or ODI stats as a measure.

Why cherry-pick Natty? No coaching required in T20???

link DIEHARD Joined: Jan 12, 2006
Posts: 5649
10/9/17 10:51:26 AM 
In reply to Walco

Why cherry-pick Natty? No coaching required in T20???


It requires less coaching some might argue, just like how playing it requires less stamina discipline and focus.

Now..as i also alluded to above ..our T-20 sucess is built around a nucleus of T-20 professionals..experts..who achieved this ..by playing under other administrations, coaches, systems, globally, by focusing on themselves...

This luxury has not been afforded these players in other formats..by honing their crafts in other leagues, they were able to bring this expertise back to the WI team..Phil himself alluded to being on autopilot once the Gayles, Bravos, Narines, Pollards put on the maroon in the shortest format

link Walco Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 5318
10/9/17 10:58:30 AM 
In reply to DIEHARD
Where are the stats to support your assertion that bowling and fielding improved under Gibson?

I don't need stats to confirm what I saw with my two eyes in the fielding department. You should consult the stats of Kemar Roach and Ravi Rampaul. Even Dwayne Bravo grudgingly complimented Gibson's skill as a bowling coach.
Only a fool will not acknowledge the fact that WI T-20 success has absolutely nothing at all to do with WI administration, they have put nothing in place to ensure success in this format, they just happened along and reaped the fruit, they didnt plant a single seed.

We are discussing coaching my friend. Are you saying that coaching is insignificant or unnecessary in T20 cricket?
The players that won the T-20 were some of the same players that Gibson discarded.

This statement is shite, but I will humor you. Kindly identify the players Gibson discarded
Relevance? Taught him cricket maybe...did he teach him man management skills as well? And regardless of what Gibson taught who..he badly mismanaged his players when WI head coach

Kindly identify the players Gibson mismanaged, and explain what Gibson did or did not do that led to your assertion that he mismanaged these players.
He couldn't get his best players to buy into his vision..thus..failure..

You mean to tell me Gibson's failure was not due to the poor pitches WI players are saddled with when playing domestic competitions? smile

All jokes aside though. You seem to think that if Gibson had gotten his best players to buy-in he would not have been a failure. So I ask you this. Were those "best players" winning or succeeding before Gibson's arrival as head coach or after Gibson's departure?
'

link DIEHARD Joined: Jan 12, 2006
Posts: 5649
10/9/17 11:11:28 AM 
In reply to Walco

Give jack his jacket...he is a great bowling coach it would appear..so..bowling should improve..but..whats the head coaches job/ objective?

This statement is shite, but I will humor you. Kindly identify the players Gibson discarded


Gayle..Samuels..well..he did get rid of Sarwan amd Shiv from ODIs


Kindly identify the players Gibson mismanaged, and explain what Gibson did or did not do that led to your assertion that he mismanaged these players.


See list above, i could go scouring through articles to find out who else was lost to WI cricket during his tenure..I am not saying for a second that his job was an easy one..i'm just saying there is no evidence as to his competence as a head coach..the evidence actually points to the opposite

You seem to think that if Gibson had gotten his best players to buy-in he would not have been a failure. So I ask you this. Were those "best players" winning or succeeding before Gibson's arrival as head coach or after Gibson's departure?


Point is, as head coach..very few bought what he..was selling...what happened prior to his appointment has nothing to do with HIS competence.

What change did he bring?

What was his influence?

Seems to me all he did, was start this stand off with senior players..and we've continued to lose, like we did before, but what was his legacy?

I mentioned that his very first measure of success would have been..converting players to his way of thinking..instead they all rebelled..Chris Gayle for example, no other cricketing observer has ever doubted his cricketing intelligence..Stuart Law actually speaks highly of him..Gibson on the other hand..called the man a crricketing dunce with nothing to offer..c'mon..the man could not even properly assess the strengths and weaknesses of his charges!!

Which wold have been necessary to sell them on his philosophy!!!

link Walco Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 5318
10/9/17 3:19:07 PM 
In reply to DIEHARD

Gayle..Samuels..well..he did get rid of Sarwan amd Shiv from ODIs


Gayle discarded himself until his belly was full with IPL and Big Bash money. Don't make me go through that shite chapter and verse for you. But who could blame Gayle for following the money?

Samuels was discarded? When? Do you realize that Gibson fought for Samuels' inclusion in the WI team when Pybus wanted him dropped?

Sarwan was dropped (presumable by the selectors) for non-performance, and never made it back primarily due to a bad back that led to fitness issues.

As I recalled, the reason Shiv was dropped from ODIs was to prolong his Test career.

Point is, as head coach..very few bought what he..was selling...what happened prior to his appointment has nothing to do with HIS competence.


It appears that you took up permanent residence in the gear bag of one of the WI players during Gibson's tenure. How you know all of this bredrin?

Seems to me all he did, was start this stand off with senior players..and we've continued to lose, like we did before, but what was his legacy?

I mentioned that his very first measure of success would have been..converting players to his way of thinking..instead they all rebelled.


The highlighted words not only expose your bias, but also can be easily proven to be false statements or gross exaggerations.

His legacy is a T20 WC and a No. 5 Test ranking that has not been sniffed since his departure smile

link natty_forever Joined: Apr 28, 2003
Posts: 43559
10/9/17 3:43:07 PM 
In reply to Walco... and how was this No. 5 ranking achieved?

link DIEHARD Joined: Jan 12, 2006
Posts: 5649
10/9/17 5:08:51 PM 
In reply to Walco

Sarwan was dropped (presumable by the selectors) for non-performance, and never made it back primarily due to a bad back that led to fitness issues.


How times have changed...the man ton up in a series before his last...now a days a ton makes u indispensable for all eternity...Kyle cant even get a 50 ..and he's guaranteed selection for life lol lol

link rubberd Joined: Apr 2, 2010
Posts: 606
10/9/17 5:37:19 PM 
Want to bet now! Law will not get to contract renewal time. He will become another coach that get paid for time not served.

I would take the job and based on history wait for CWI to terminate. Habits hard to break and Law is sounding like he wants results and demanding the best team. To get the best team on the field Wavel and Cameron have to undo certain aspects of the MOU.

link Walco Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 5318
10/9/17 7:55:57 PM 
In reply to rubberd

Law has a two year contract and he has been coach for 8 months already. If we win a test in New Zealand he will get whatever players he wants.

But I get your point. The Stars won't waste time playing for the pocket change Wavell and Dave agreed to in the MOU

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