When Trinidadian left arm spinner Dave Mohammed was excluded from the West Indies third and final test squad to face Pakistan in Karachi, it signalled the continuation of a disturbing trend for slow bowlers in the Caribbean.

For some reason, ever since the days of Alf Valentine (139 wickets in 36 tests), Sonny Ramadhin (158 in 43) and Lance Gibbs (309 in 79), spinners have not lasted for too long in West Indian final line-ups both at home and abroad for several years now.
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In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com

Early indications are he no good!!Cut our losses before he becomes another Ganga.

In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com

Decent article but not news to some of the regulars here.

It seems to be a norm now that in every Test Lara and Coach BK boggles the mind with the selection of players.

Mohamed is a wasted investment, IMHO. He is not a very good bowler and it's a waste of resources to try to teach him in Test cricket.

Omari Banks has more upside. Rawl Lewis has dominated FC cricket and is a far better option to be given an extended run. IMHO, of course.

_ryan

In reply to Admin

This is the best of it all.

In reply to Admin

Oh boy! you are opening the flood gates for redBareAss' "real loo waste" :wink:

Jamaica needs to pick Andre Dewyer, he is the best spinner of the ball in Jamaica

In reply to Admin

shane warne was just as shabby when he began his career. There is no such thing as wasted investment to teach players.


Shane Warne wasnt no high class bowler when he began.

Mohammed will come to the party eventually. The development system in T&T is that damn good.

rawl lewis has failed to take it to the next level.

In your honest opinion what you are saying is that mohammed shouldnt be on the team and be given a run.?


When last I checked he made the team based on sheer strong performance in regional cricket.

In reply to terminator

Test cricket is not a place to teach people to play.

_r

In reply to Admin

if selectors use that theory then the WI would take the field w/ 4 players

In reply to VIX

With 3 of them being given time for "reflection" from time to time and another taking time for "reflection" on his own :wink:

True, but neither is the WI domestic set-up given it's poor quality.

Plays like DaMo and Rawl are dominating the batsmen there, what more can they learn from that?

In reply to Admin Admin you are telling me that giles of england is a great spinner of the ball?he is not, yet england have faith in him.I would still pick mohammed over lewis any day and how do expect the player to improve his game when they kept throw him out like dirty water?

In reply to Admin

>>> Mohamed is a wasted investment, IMHO. He is not a very good bowler and it's a waste of resources<<<

You could be correct.

Then lets move on - Banks, Jaggernauth etc.

But we need to have a spinner who could bowl 30 overs in a day if needed. And he needs to get an extended run. We need a specialist spinner as a regular and routine member of every 11.

Our pacers are not getting the job done.

In reply to VIX

Correct! That's why we continue to lose Test matches at an alarming rate. Too many amateurs playing pro cricket, trying to learn the game as they go along. Coaches have no time to be wasting resources teaching people to grip the ball or run between the wickets.

It's why a sustainable academy (with eternal funding) and specialists coaches should be the *highest priority* for Ken Gordon.

_r

In reply to Kurt

Agree, 100%! The answer is a fully-funded, sustainable academy. That will prepare players for a high-quality FC system that serves as the feeder for the Test team.

This is not unique or rocket science. This is why Australia had a player like Hussey ready to walk into their Test team and dominate immediately.

If it was up to me, I'd give up hope with this crop, have them go thru the motions. Channel all my energies on fully-funding the academy, build for 5-10 years from now.

Otherwise, we're only "turning corners" every other month when in fact we're going around in circles.

All IMHO, of course.

_ryan

In reply to Admin Well said sir test cricket is not the place to teach folks to play cricket. I agree with that comment TOTALLY

In reply to dax

Name one WI spinner that you as a captain can trust with the ball for one-third of the day's overs. Name one. Thought so.

Forget about trying to find him, he doesn't exist. Cut your losses, accept that amateurs can't succeed in a pro environment and invest properly in *preparing* players (spinners, batsmen, 'keepers, etc.) for Test cricket.

_ryan (the broken record)

In reply to Admin

Why single out on the spinner?

Name one WI BOWLER that you can trust with 30 overs ( OK 25 for a seamer) and expect to get some returns over a period of time.

yes, I know Taylor is showing promise. Even so, he did not have much to show for in his first few matches

In reply to dax

This entire discussion was triggered by the dropping of Mohamed.

I think you started a thread on day one describing this as a "batting wicket." A few hours later, Gayle called it a "horrendous pitch" and the WI were bowled out for 270.

A day later, two men scored centuries (one scoring his second of the match). Get the picture?

_ryan

In reply to Admin
The main point in the article was that many fast bowlers are/were given extended run in the WI team. Why not do the same for at least one spinner. All the fast bowlers that have been in the WI team in the last 10 years have been average at best.

In reply to Admin

Glad that you read my threads.

The batting wicket assesment was made by the "experts".

Seems as if it only a batting wicket for Pak so far ( explanation - our bowlers are $hit)

I am tired of poor Mo getting dumped on for his supposed attitude. Perhaps his own life experiences may have something to do with that.

Everybody knows he is no world class spinner - but cut the man some slack. Lara' certainly doesn't.

In reply to Admin

Agree, 100%! The answer is a fully-funded, sustainable academy. That will prepare players for a high-quality FC system that serves as the feeder for the Test team.



That will help, but what about players, working to correct flaws in batting.

There are guys like Walsh & Bradshaw out there, that are working on their own.
The retainer contract will help, but some of these guys don't have respect for the history of our cricket.

In reply to Gupta

So, you will fix one mistake by duplicating it?

_r

In reply to Admin

Omari has better upside.........care tuh eloborate......becuz him younger.......

nah fuhget....yuh said Rawl deserved a chance so me nah want tuh hear again...

In reply to OVAL291

You want me to elaborate or you don't want to hear again? Make up your mind.

_ryan

In reply to Admin

Ryan,

I got to run - but this discussion is not confined to Mo only ( he may have precipitated it)

WI management has a short leash for spinners. That is a fact. This is even more perplexing when there is no Marshall, Holding, Roberts or Garner out there on the team. (Even THEN Harper managed to play 20 plus tests).

Some time ago - I had produced stats to show that even in the last five years or so WHEN WI did play a spinner they did statisically better. And the spinner took a bit more than his 25% share of the wickets to fall to a specialist bowler. Maybe it has to do with the pace of the game and over rate etc etc. But it was staistically VERY significant

In reply to dax
I have to run too, work calls. I had a long post done and ready to post about the mediocrity extending to the entire team (Lara and Shiv excepted) but my WiFi barfed and i lost it.

Now I'm too bored (and busy) to do it over. Maybe another day.

_ryan

In reply to Admin

later maybe

Hussey's readiness for Test cricket was due to much more than any time spent in the Australian Academy. Check his awesome first class record. I think he had no less that three triple centuries at the first class level, prior to making his Test debit.

Learning the technical aspects of gripping a ball, running etc are essential but without an opportunity to practice those techniques in a competitive match situation, a player will never fulfill his potential.

Which brings us back to our first class set-up. This is where players should learn to be professionals, and where coaches can have the biggest impact. The problem is now you require 6 sets of expert coaches rather than just the one.

As a start I would like to see the accademy reopened, but more as a continuous enterprise. During the first class season the coaches from the accademy rotate around the various regions supplementing the local coaches for each team. Then whenthe season is over, chosen players can return to the academy for more continuous training, with any player able to drop in at any time if he's struggling with a particular problem.

Of course funding is an issue but the money is there, it's just a matter of priorities. I'd love to see WIPA take the lead and pledge say 2% of every players income from appearance fees, match fees, winning and even PEs to go to a fund dedicated to the hiring of coaches and the construction of training facilities. Then I would like to see WIPA challenge the board to do the same, that is to set aside 2% of all their income: gate receipts, sponsorship payments, TV deals, and ICC payments for the WC Cup, Champions Trophy etc.

Let WIPA have a say on how this fund is administered and have the opportunity to review expenditures etc.

WI cricket has to look toward the future if it is to compete.

In reply to Admin

Forget the fact that many of our test players are thrust into the deepend too early, the point of this article is, why are spinners not given the same leeway that pace bowlers and batsmen are?

Would we stand for this sort of treatment of our pace bowlers?

... a think dMo pissed off Lara when they batted together in the 2nd test. BTW: dMo dominates our FC and must be the leading spinner in the region unless Nikita can regain his 2005 form.

In reply to Admin

You on a roll here, but surely you do not think a fully funded academy will start turning out spinners of quality if they will not get a chance to show their wares.

1 test, drop then 1 test then drop will not build enough confidence for any spinner to stop bowling flat when given a chance.

So where will the money come from to fund the academy and how long do think it will take, given the current attitude of teh captains confidence levels or lack of risk taking attitude?

Don't you think the young spinners who see what is meted out to their seniors will start at a psychological disadvantage?

I do not think that Mohamed is the issue here, like Dax I think it is the message that is sent. We have done this to every spinner since Lance Gibbs.

In reply to anandgb There are good and upon coming spinners right now in the caribbean right now.But doubt they ever get the chance to show their worth. The selectors are to blame they still think we are living in the 80s and holding and co are still around, and is still bowling.My brother just came back from barbados and was watching the arawark cup and he was very impress with shamar brooks who has spun the ball very well.There also many more like juggernauth from trnidad and young youth from guyana who did very well in the under 19s competition. Can anybody name some more.?