Message Board Archives

HEADLINE: Going forward

 
CaribbeanCricket.com Apr 20, 2007, 8:10:48 AM 

With the sudden retirement of the last of our great players, the question is asked, who is going to score the big knocks now? Which batsman will make all the runs now that Lara is gone? Not so long ago, when Ambrose and then Walsh moved on, people wondered who was going to take all the wickets.

The answer two both questions should be -- the team. The peculiar structure of the West Indies as an entity which is made up of entities feeds the focus on individuals in what should be a team sport. The prevailing thought seems to be that if we just get the best eleven players in the region and press GO, everything little thing gonna be alright. Of course, no one can ever agree on who exactly that eleven might be.

 Full Story

 
buds Apr 20, 2007, 8:29:50 AM 

Good article..We will be a better TEAM fr now on..I wish Sarwan all the best and he will get all the support fr all the players.

Sarwan and Shiv are team players and will do very well with the young crop of players.Again, great example of NZ..playing as a team with out superstars.......And a back-stabber.

 
Zikdaman Apr 20, 2007, 9:24:02 AM 

In terms of the player pool, this region has the same level of talent it always has, perhaps more even


I think you may be mistaken here. Cricket had much higher mindshare among the youth 25 to 30 years ago. As far as team sports went, there wasn't much else to compete with it as cable television from America had not yet taken hold in a dominant way in the caribbean.

Sure there was football on TV and there were plenty youths playing it. But even that couldn't compete with cricket for sparking the imagination of the youth because caribbean youth did not see those football players as their own. The racial and cultural gaps (or the perception thereof) between caribbean youth and international football stars were too wide back then for football to compete with WI cricket and its homegrown cricket stars. In cricket, every caribbean youth saw someone that they could imagine themselves as being.

What the influx of American based cable tv did is to introduce caribbean youth to other sports played by athletes they felt they could identify with. That is when cricket began to lose mindshare. The brainthrust behind cricket in the caribbean, since they never had to compete in the marketplace for this mindshare, was at a loss to know what to do about the it. To this day they are still at a loss.

I just don't think there are as many youths playing cricket or even considering competing for a career in cricket. Therefore I'm not as optimistic about the talent pool as the author of the article is.

Maybe if we'd come to the realization that the players we have just aren't good enough, then we'd start putting resources on actually fixing the problem of the talent drain. If we keep deluding ourselves that out talent pool is good enough then we're in for even more disappointment down the road.

 
natty_forever Apr 20, 2007, 10:11:47 AM 

there is no highly visible outlet for basketball
... a young 6'6" lad would rather play basketball at school because he feels he can get a scholoarship to a US University/College, which allows him to dream of entering the NBA if not jus' get an education. Would have to say I disagree with this quote.

 
natty_forever Apr 20, 2007, 10:13:13 AM 

In reply to Zikdaman ... talent pool is good enough ...the means to develop this talent pool is not good enough.

 
Spectator Apr 20, 2007, 10:14:51 AM 

Not a bad effort Mr. Gilbert! :wink:

 
Chrissy Apr 20, 2007, 10:17:22 AM 

In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com

Nothing wrong with flashing blades if you actually know the basics. Until the state of the base is dealt with and the useless administrators are removed from national and the regional boards, we're all wasting time. Add to that the well known corrupt officials who make decisions for home boys, club boys, parish teams and parish school teams at the expense of developing decent cricketers.

 
ace367th Apr 20, 2007, 11:34:41 AM 

And in the end this guys wants a photcopy of New Zealand. Oh well I can alway switch the channel and watch football.

 
imusic Apr 20, 2007, 11:44:28 AM 

A nex one miss de point yet again.

On point when he says we have natural talent.

Misses the point when he says we don't know what the formula was.

We usin the same formula now as we did then. Nothing really different with WHAT we doin & HOW we doin it.

People fond of sayin how PROFESSIONAL our players in the late 70's and throughout the 80's were.

What they have always discounted is the level of the opposition. The opposition has gotten MORE PROFESSIONAL, MORE TECHNOLOGICAL and MORE PSYCHOLOGICALLY PREPARED. We're left in the dust because we don't really do much different than we always did.

We're followers, not leaders in these areas. We are ill prepared to compete CONSISTENTLY with the likes of the top 6 Test playing countries. Oh, we'll win the odd game or two. Might even scrape a series. But we eh able wit dem teams consistently.

Until such time as we are truly ready to invest in proper structure, development, and administration of the game, we will always struggle to COMPETE.


 
SuperG Apr 20, 2007, 11:51:40 AM 

A wonder how long de LBLs on dis MB will stop whinning. Lara has retired now all yuh move on.

 
Arawak Apr 20, 2007, 11:57:17 AM 

In reply to imusic


We're followers, not leaders in these areas.


We're neither. We're still doing, or trying to do the last thing that worked. Twenty years ago.

Arawak

 
wanchaps Apr 20, 2007, 12:01:18 PM 

In reply to imusic

And that is the real problem with Windies cricket! Great observation. I think everything is secondary to this problem. Carefully video analysis of the opposition, scientific physical perpartion and mental application. All those things we not doing. We still playing cricket in the 70's and the world playing cricket in the 21st century.

 
ganga_fan Apr 20, 2007, 12:02:33 PM 

In reply to wanchaps

So do you really think that them men from the 70s never read the opposition out?

Listen Kali and them man used to pick the spinners from the pavilion.

 
Blackbird Apr 20, 2007, 12:12:48 PM 

In reply to Zikdaman This jackass probably watch the Standford 20/20.

We also did not noticed the demise of our strike force after Walsh and Ambrose.

This article is more bullshyte than a WICB position paper.

 
sabina Apr 20, 2007, 12:17:06 PM 

In reply to imusic

"The opposition has gotten MORE PROFESSIONAL, MORE TECHNOLOGICAL and MORE PSYCHOLOGICALLY PREPARED. We're left in the dust because we don't really do much different than we always did."

The dunce 'back in my day' old bwoy dem can't grasp this reality.

 
wanchaps Apr 20, 2007, 12:17:33 PM 

In reply to ganga_fan

What about the bowlers sitting in the film room looking at a batsman weakness and the type of shots he likes to play. Do you think it was an accident that over the last 2 - 3 tours that West Indies could not make any runs in Australia and South Africa? While our bowlers getting hammered. They were not bowling faster than us but we get serious licks. If you watched careful the field would adjust to each new batsman without prompting from the captain. This tells me that opposing team did their homework on us and spent long nights in the video room while our players partying.

 
Zikdaman Apr 20, 2007, 12:21:51 PM 

In reply to Arawak

We're still doing, or trying to do the last thing that worked.


But wouldn't that mean we know the formula that worked the last time?

 
wanchaps Apr 20, 2007, 12:23:26 PM 

In reply to sabina[/b

The ex-physio report should have been an eye opener for most of these fans, as it was coming from a n Aussie who has seen and worked in a modern cricket set up. However, most swept it aside and did not realise the bigger problem. WE ARE STILL PLAYING CRICKET IN THE STONE AGE!!

 
Arawak Apr 20, 2007, 12:26:48 PM 

In reply to Zikdaman

It would mean we think it did.

But, the Allies tried the last thing that worked against the Germans at the beginning of WWII....

Arawak


 
Zikdaman Apr 20, 2007, 12:29:25 PM 

In reply to imusic

What they have always discounted is the level of the opposition. The opposition has gotten MORE PROFESSIONAL, MORE TECHNOLOGICAL and MORE PSYCHOLOGICALLY PREPARED. We're left in the dust because we don't really do much different than we always did.


BINGO! That's why when american cable came and captured nuff caribbean mindshare, the incompetents that run cricket were powerless and clueless to do anything about it. They never had to really come up with ideas about how to position cricket to compete with other sports for the interest of caribbean youth. So sports like basketball started draining the once venerable cricket talent pool and the old farts just stood by and did nothing.

To this day they still haven't come up with a plan to get the best talent playing cricket.

 
Zikdaman Apr 20, 2007, 12:36:06 PM 

In reply to Arawak

It would mean we think it did.


BTW, you know that this is an indictment of some of the same past cricketers and old fogies that shooting from the hip now...right?

I mean name just one person on the WICB or commentary team etc, who you think has the faintest notion of how we became successful and how we can do it again.

 
imusic Apr 20, 2007, 12:42:31 PM 

In reply to Zikdaman
We have good enough "talent" playin de game.

We just doh have much of a clue to recognise dat de game has evolved, far less understand & implement what it takes to be successful in the game today.

 
POINT Apr 20, 2007, 1:08:24 PM 

I am truly tired OF people who refuse to call a spade a spade . Why that is so baffles me no end .

The Charlatans nibble at the edges of the problems and many on this very MB also do the same . It is very disconcerting .

So let me again reiterate : MOST OF THE FAILURES OF OUR TEAM AND THE SAD SORRY STATE OF CRICKET IN THE REGION ARE LARGELY DUE TO THE MAL GOVERNANCE OF THE WICB , AND THE REFUSAL OF PSEUDO SPORTS JOURNALISTS TO THE WICB TO TASK REGARDING ITS FAULTS FLAWS AND SINS .

In my opinion the WICB & The Charlatans who tell us that they are Sports Journalists are complicit in the sad state of Cricket in the Region .

Yet persons will come on this MB and bluntly refuse to acknowledge this fact . In essence by refusing to do so perpetuates the sorry state of Cricket in the Region .

It also informs me that there are a lot of Manicou in the Region rather than men , like the jellyfish they are spineless .

As I have stated over and over again on this MB : THERE AINT GOING TO BE ANY IMPROVEMENT IN CRICKET IN THE REGION UNTIL AND UNLESS THERE ARE DRASTIC CHANGES IN THE WICB OR A NEW ENTITY REPLACES THE WICB IN THE GOVERNANCE OF CRICKET IN THE REGION .

 
wanchaps Apr 20, 2007, 1:49:09 PM 

In reply to POINT[/b

Another part of the problem for sure. After all aren't they the ones who should make that Windies cricketing infrastructure is on par with the rest of the world?

 
POINT Apr 20, 2007, 1:59:47 PM 

In reply to wanchaps

If the WICB was really interested in making our Team competitive , they would have had a Nutritionist on board , they would have had a Fitness Trainer & A SPORTS PSYCHOLOGIST .

It is therefore very obvious that they are only interested in collecting money but want the Players to perform without the neccessary personnel assistance .

 
redbaron Apr 20, 2007, 2:13:20 PM 

In fact, I will argue that you could take any reasonable combination of 11 of the best 25 players in the region, and produce a competitive if not world beating team.


Anybody who can write that rubbish has to be someone who knows very little of the state of WI cricket and has not seen any of the following teams play test/ODI cricket in recent times - OZ, NZ, RSA, England, SL, India or Pakistan.

If he had seen them play, he would have observed the big difference between the abilities of the players of those teams and recognised the huge difference in ability between those players and WI players - any 25 - bar 1, Brian Lara.

It is that kind of foolishness that causes West Indians to continue to say that certain WI players are "talented" and expect them to be "great" when, in fact, they are mere mediocrities in both talent and performances.

And if he can write such rubbish, I need waste no more time to read further than that crap.

 
DIEHARD Apr 20, 2007, 2:26:25 PM 

In reply to natty_forever
"a young 6'6" lad would rather play basketball at school because he feels he can get a scholoarship to a US University/College"

I've often wondered why the WICB doesn't have some programme with UWI where scholarships are awarded based on cricketing excellence. Then we wouldn't have the additional problem of players who come across as daft

 
redbaron Apr 20, 2007, 2:28:48 PM 

In reply to DIEHARD

You assume..wrongly...that the WICBandits care about that kind of stuff.

You must be new to this business.

 
Larr Pullo Apr 20, 2007, 2:32:28 PM 

In reply to DIEHARD

Basketball is sexy. Basketball is also a far easier game to master than cricket, and yes, because of the hundreds of schools offering scholarships in the US, even a marginally talented BBall player could be granted a scholarship. Even better, they wouldn't have to do much school work, just stay eligible and play for four years and help the coach win a few games.

So that whole Basketball vs cricket thing is comparing apples and oranges.

 
carib Apr 20, 2007, 2:35:29 PM 


The selection decision was made in the mid 80's to surround border with thesorts of people who it was felt would have the ability and the strength ofcharacter to become good test players down the line. Boon, Marsh, SWaugh,Healy, Hughes were all players who were perservered with for those reasons. Most of them were not the best running around when they got picked yet they became magnificent players. Healy was by no stretch of theimagination even close to being the best keeper in the country when he got picked. But he was one hell of a good selection in the long run. Merv hughes made a disastrous start to his test career and most armchair selectorswondered why he was picked, and it took several years before merv started producing consistently at the test level.


Ive posted the following several times to show how the Aussies rebuilt in the 80s. What they did was not pick the most talented players, but pick players who had the right attitude & temperament to develop into great Test players-Boon, Healy, SWaugh, Merv Hughes. Now these tended to be grit & determination guys who were about working hard and grinding down the oppsition. Yet they became a great Aussie team and eventually the best team in the world in 1995.
Now, it seems to me that the WI needs a similar strategy. We don't have the great flashing blades anymore. The last one has retired and there are no more on offer. We have to fight with the army we have, and stop pretending that we have a bunch of Greenidges, Richardses, and Laras about to burst forth . Its time to leave fantasyland.
Both Australia & NZ have shown us that its possible to win with a team of hard triers. We should be looking to build such a team.

 
azadtnt Apr 20, 2007, 2:39:21 PM 

Read & listen to yourself! This is one of the reasons why WI cricket is in the condition it is in today! THERE IS NO UNITY IN THE WI! None whatsoever, from the top to the bottom. If it is not a racial issue, it is geographics. Everybody pointing fingers at Lara for the team's poor showing thus far in the WC, that even proceeded in his elimination from the team all together, which in turn prompted his earlier than expected retirement to save him the embarassment of not being picked for the England tour. WHAT AN INSULT! No Sarwan, Ganga, Lloyd, Pointing, Sobers, Richards or Border would be able to make a difference to this team. This is the "WHOLE PROBLEM"! The WICB and the coaches and the selection panel do NOT have the VISION and the UNDERSTANDING to realise that this isn't the problem. I hope that Ganga is not choosen for the captaincy for his sake, he will be better off as a batsman. This would be like spinning top in mud. Changes has to be made in all aspects of the board. I do believe that there should be a complete termination of the WICB and let the WIPA run the affairs of WI CRICKET. Put a five year plan together by:

GETTING THE RIGHT PERSONNEL TO HANDLE THE ADMINISTRATION!

START PUTTING A PLAN TOGETHER FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE SPORT THROUGHOUT THE REGION!

FORWARD THOSE PLANS TO THE REGIONAL GOVERNMENTS AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR FOR THE FINANCIAL BACKING FOR THOSE PROGRAMS!

SELECTION OF A PANEL OF PROPER PERSONNEL TO RUN & HANDLE THOSE PROGRAMS!

IMPLEMENT & IMPROVE PROPER CRICKET FACILITIES AND TECHNOLOGY!

ADMINISTRATION MUST IMPLEMENT THEIR RULES AND REGULATIONS BY WHICH ALL MUST ADHERE TO!

FORMING OF A HEALTHY & DURABLE CRICKET LEAGUE!

CHOOSING OF A SCOUTING & SELECTION PANEL!

SELECTING A COACHING & TRAINNING STAFF!

SELECTING A CORE OF PLAYERS IN A SPECIAL ONGOING CAMP FOR POSSIBLE SELECTION!

PUTTING THE BEST TEAM FORWARD BASE ON PROGRESS, PERFORMANCE & DISCIPLINE AND NOT ON RACE OR GEOGRAPHICS!


 
vivek_shankar153 Apr 20, 2007, 7:25:42 PM 

In reply to carib

Both Australia & NZ have shown us that its possible to win with a team of hard triers. We should be looking to build such a team.


a very valid point.

What they did was not pick the most talented players, but pick players who had the right attitude & temperament to develop into great Test players-Boon, Healy, SWaugh, Merv Hughes. Now these tended to be grit & determination guys who were about working hard and grinding down the oppsition. Yet they became a great Aussie team and eventually the best team in the world in 1995.


yes another wonderful observation. there seems to be too much obsession with this talent thing. but note how it took Oz also tim to rebuild.

 
kazakman Apr 20, 2007, 8:57:15 PM 

In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com
Before we think of going forward. We must know from whence we came.This article missed this very important When we had a world beating team, all our players played cricket 6 or 7 days a week in the English counties. When the time comes for them to play for West Indies they take time off, beat the rest of the world and then go back to their jobs.The English recognized this and gradually phased us out of their system. Since then, what have the Administrators our cricket done?Nothing absolutely nothing.So how can we find players who can be like their predecessors, world beaters?
Without our own league . The way forward is going up a down staircase.
Clive Lloyd recently mentioned the fact that our players are learning on the job.This is the sad reality.We are simply not playing enough cricket in the region to compete with other Nations. Our players should be playing cricket for about 120-180 days a year.Instead we have no more than 25 days a year cricket.
Secondly the standard of Regional cricket today s a far cry from what it was years ago.There is sadly no short cut.We will be condemned to be minnows,we do not have our own system in the Region where we train our players to become test cricketers.We cannot expect to find players who can bat for two full days in a test match if they cannot do it at the regional level.
The way forward is to have our own League for our players so that they can learn to play cricket by playing on a daily basis.(Learn to do by doing)
Additionally, cricket today is 90% mental. A lot of classroom work will have to be done if players want to compete at the international level.

 
buds Apr 20, 2007, 9:32:52 PM 

In reply to wanchaps

Yep! That Physio had no axe to grind yet we dismissed his report.Some saying he was not qualified...cannot deal with inter-personal relationships etc...

 
hawk Apr 21, 2007, 5:58:51 AM 

i like this article but i want to add that the "team" also needs fan base support of which it get very little, everyone seems to support individual players from they territory rather than the "team" as a whole, this is because we don't see ourselves as one entity the scourge of insularity will never be removed once this is in effect we must think and show the world one nation under one flag and kazakman is correct lack of vision is totally responsible for our demise, failure to adapt to the changing face of world cricket, we took way to long to modernised our stadia and we only did it because of the world cup and still we did it half-heartedly with none of the stadia installing lights, you cannot have stadia in these times without lights you are wasting time and money if you don't, it is vital not only to the development of cricket from a spectator perspective but to the profitability of the same stadia a pro league should have been in place from the time we saw the signs that england was phasing us out and don't tell me money was an issue i refuse to buy into that, it always was and still is a viable option, until we put this pro league in place, get our players playing more cricket that 6 matches a years maximum until people of the west indies understand it is a team and not avenue for pushing individual players from our island, until the fans begin to support the west indies as a "TEAM" and not players from our island our rise to cricketing excellence will never begin

 
DIEHARD Apr 24, 2007, 4:57:18 AM 

In reply to Larr Pullo Basketball is marketed as sexy. With the right approach. The same could be done with our cricket. Heck watching a Nike Tiger Woods ad, golf comes across as sexy