by TONY FRASER

It is frightening that there exist cricket scribes, amongst them former world-famous players, who believe that the departure of Brian Lara is the partial or whole solution to the free-fall that West Indies cricket has been experiencing over the last 15 years.

As evidence of this shallow understanding of the problems of WI cricket are statements such as, "It would be good to make a fresh start now that Lara has gone," and, "His departure clears the way for the advance of the team." Full Story

In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com

Fairly good article but I take exception to the statement:

Actually Hooper's average as captain is in the 40s while his overall average is in the high 30s.
He actually improved as captain.

In reply to bajanboy Facts are not important. Making teh point is more important, no?

Didnt you notice that he never mentioned that the burden of captaincy did not affect Worrel, Sobers, Kanhai, Lloyd or Viv' s batting.

That is the way to make an argument.

But I do agree with him that the captaincy is not the critical problem. The WICB has to stop playing mind games with the players.

It is very confusing that they have a cricket committee and selectors, but they cannot accept their choices.

We have a President who is a prima donna who wants to dictate about cricketing matters and he knows absolutely nothing about cricket compared to his selectors and cricket committee.

The WICB directors make decisions by horse trading.

These crap has to stop.

It is truly amazing how people can write total falsehoods and seemingly get away with it.I would love to debate these guys.I would make mincemeat out of them.He also implied that it was the captaincy that destroyed Jimmy Adams batting.The problem is that a man gets up and in an article in a newspaper states blatant falsehoods.It is then pointed out on a message board that those statements are garbage.The ignorant masses therefore continue in their collective ignorance and continue to jump and wave them hand in de air.

Where ignorance is bliss................

In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com

"Lara's departure will make no difference to the serious structural problems of West Indies cricket, that the problems are far-reaching, that the problems are "beyond the boundaries" of cricket, that instead of attempting to borrow solutions from Australia we have to develop our own, and that the need is to transform the structures of WI cricket if we are to ever again become one of the leading teams in international cricket."

Pure Trini propaganda. Now that Lara gone Gayle gonna start moving his feet, Samuels will stop wafting at balls outside the offstump, Sarwan will stop hooking out of position, Dwayne Smith gonna learn to play straight, Bravo gonna stop getting out playing across the line, a host of batsmen with 40+ FC averages will appear from nowhere all across the region, and all our players will become articulate and able to express themselves clearly in English.

The disaster of the Richardson appointment as captain was compounded when Lara was handed the captaincy when he was even less equipped than Richardson was.


I will bet any money that Mr.Fraser never said this when Lara was appointed captain.

In reply to Dukes The Trinni mafia is up in arms, even Redbaron has joined the chorus :lol:

Them hurting reaaaaaalll bad man.

In reply to Dukes

"total falsehoods"

What total falsehoods?

You mean we have actually had a successful captain since Viv Richards retired?

The WI team's performance went up after Richards, Walsh, Adams, Hooper, Chanderpaul gave up the captaincy or retired?

Or am I missing something here?

In reply to Dukes

Adams could not even make the team consistently in the period leading up to his becoming captain. In fact some may argue that he made the team as captain and not player.



Malcom Marshall was not fustrated out of his position as Coach, he was diagnosed with Colon Cancer.

Viv was not fustrated out of his position as coach either; he as appointed temporarily after Maco could no longer continue and was not reappointed after his stint was completed.


The article can stand on its own without trying to make up points to support the argument.

In reply to Dukes

Why dont you stop trying to obfuscate? The theme of article is not who is the best captain or who struggled wid it. It is about looking beyond the mere cosmetic and addressing the structural....in an effort to turn around the WI fate

Excellent article except for one or two statistical errors!!!!!
God alone know what Dukesie bawling bout!

Having said all that, these fugging Trinis actually believe that Lara's career is somehow indefinite!

I guess he should go out like The Greatest,Muhammad Ali, did. For Christ sakes the man dropped 3 or 4 fugging catches in the slips, something he was quite adept at. Isn't that a sign that he is not what he once was?

De article wrong about Hoopsie's batting under de captaincy, but otherwise it is accurate about de state of affairs.

In reply to sabina The author is doing the same thing that Dubya is doing.He is distorting what the critics are saying!!!!
Absolutely everybody agrees that the problems in WI cricket go way beyond captaincy.There is no disagreement on that score.
What he is trying to do is to imply that everyone who criticizes Lara's captaincy is saying that it is Lara's captaincy alone that is the problem.

THAT IS DISHONEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to Dukes
Exactly!!

In reply to Spectator

Of course he's not what he once was. He's facting 37 going on tuh 38. What's Onry's excuse fuh dropping catches? De point is at 37 Lara is still our best Test batsman. Last time TriniD checked, Lara averaged 89 in his last Test series. De closes WI bat tuh dat average was Shiv at about 41.

And tuh tink dat he's dat capable even though he's NOT what he once was.

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

I here trying to fathom why dukesie and anand jumping all over that issue when either way it does not take away from the main point of the article - that there is no support for the assertion by some that a change in captaincy will turnaround WI cricket fortunes.

Indeed do they desire refute the main jist of the article?

In reply to Dukes

You just wait...your time to bawl coming soon. Go Sars!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to Zikdaman

Leff them dey feel they have to campaign for Sars starting now

In reply to Dukes

Is dat so? Now who being dishonest here. If yuh listen tuh Mikey and Croftie yuh wud tink dat captaincy and in particular LARA is de main problem wid WI cricket. Not only problem, de main problem.


Now who's being dishonest here Sidesie?

In reply to Dukes

"This is not a defence of Lara, his unorthodox captaincy, his inability to convert a talented team into a world champion unit, or to hark back to his immature days and ways, not even an attempt to say that he should have been allowed to continue on for another series or until he reached 40."

Rass man. You eyes going bad? Physician heal thyself!

The author made a few minor errors bout Hpooper's average and such, but his big point is unassailable. Lara going or staying aint gonna change any more than Hooper's - or whoever -going or staying.

Hell didn't 'Shiv the cancer remover' teach anybody anything bout out of fryimg pan into fire?

Shitty captain he may or may not be, but Lara was a .500 ODI skipper. With the same team Chanderpaul won one out of 20 odd ODIS.

In reply to zimzimma

Good article...What this Laura resignation will bring out are the straglers...Time to put up or shut up.

In reply to Dukes

If you were honest in your critisisms of the previous captain you would be saying, there may be other problems, but now that the captaincy has changed, we should start seeing more positive results on the field...even if the other problems remain.

Anything else and you're just being DISHONEST as the sun is hot.

In reply to Trinidave Do you think that the "misstatements about Hooper and Adams" are just misstatements and due to "faulty recollections"???

Do you feel that Alberto also had "faulty recollections"??

The headline of the article suggests that its purpose is to ridicule those who were calling for Lara's head.He then makes some obvious suggestions as to some major problems and implies that all who called for Lara's head do not think those are real problems.

If you follow US politics it is exactly the strategy that Dubya is employing.
All those who want troops out of Iraq are "going against the Generals".Never mind the Generals who opposed this war have been removed and the current ones are merely following orders from Dubya himself.

I usually find Dukes a thoughtful and logical voice on this MB. Which is why I am a bit mystified about his ire regarding this article by Tony Fraser. True, the article is not accurate about Hooper's batting as captain. His views about the reasons why various coaches left are at least debatable. But Fraser's basic point stands. His thesis is clear. He is writing against those who claim that the departure of Lara somehow wipes the slate clean and allows a fresh start. He make no defense of Lara's stewardship. He merely states that those who make the superficial judgment that suddenly things will be better now that Lara is gone, are deluded. I concur.

In reply to Zikdaman

"now that the captaincy has changed, we should start seeing more positive results on the field."

You mean like what happened when Chanderpaul tek ovah?

You know hat kills me with Dukes is that the man is supposedly a doctor.

Can you imagine his poor patients?

"Well this pill only made one of 20 people recover. But I still think it's better than this pill which made 10 out of 20 people recover."

In reply to sabina :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:When I sick I avoiding he!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to sabina

The amount of attention people like Dukes placed on the captaincy issue, it strikes me as more than a tad disingeuous, that now that the captaincy has indeed changed, for them to now claim that "oh by the way, captaincy was only part of the problem."

Well sure, but are they admitting that they were placing disproportionate attention of the captaincy issue then? Because that is about the only thing anyone was talking about recently.

In reply to Dukes

He makes no such implication. But there are certainly those who have been implying that Lara was the ONLY problem. He is arguing against that simplistic notion.

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

Well, perhaps it would be wise to avoid any doctor who spends so much time idling on a cricket MB when he should be boning up on the latest developments in his field of medicine!

Course that probably goes for the lawyers and businessmen here too!

In reply to Dukes

Who's the editor that allows an article with such blatant falsehoods to make the front page?

In reply to sabina

Same way! :lol:

Lara is gone...time to look ahead.

Start a legends league and let him play there.

In reply to Dukes
Now, I not looking to embarrass you but how did you conclude that he is implying that everyone who criticizes Lara's captaincy is saying that it is Lara's captaincy alone that is the problem?

Shiv Chanderpaul saved himself from a fate like Richardson by quickly handing back the captaincy.
Proof that Shiv is the smartest of the lot....know that limitations and observe them!!
Now watch Shiv show Lara how to play until 40 and retire when he is ready.

In reply to HumbleCalf

"Proof that Shiv is the smartest of the lot....know that limitations and observe them!!"

Why him tek it in the first place then?

Fact is Shiv never hand it back, he jump before he was pushed. Even he understood the implications of a 1 for 20 odd record.

If Sarwan is wise he would think of Shiv and say "After you Darren."

In reply to Zikdaman

Lack of comprehension is a very bad thing, no? I did not jump all over the article and if you read what I said with a clear understanding, you would not make such a statement.

I merely pointed out that he makes a lot of statements that are wrong. Where did I say that the captaincy is the main issue?

Be very careful how you proffor your comprehension skills man.

In reply to Larr Pullo :lol: :lol:Now they cannot accuse of not providing a vaible solotion.

In reply to bajanboy

True bro - Carl's batting improved as cappo. Otherwise a good read.

In reply to HumbleCalf

You might be in for a shocker. Be careful.

_r

In reply to Admin Oh oh. Will Ganga drop Shiv? :lol:

In reply to anandgb

Pay attention to the 'R' word and read the tea leaves.

_r

In reply to anandgb

The man mek a few minor errors, none of which weaken his main argument that we have not had a single successful captain since Richards so only dunces could say Lara's captaincy is the main cause of WI's lack of success over the past 15 years.

In reply to sabina

But when you see people jumping all over errors in an article that don't affect the main point of it, you know they all wet.

In reply to sabina

But when you see people jumping all over errors in an article that don't affect the main point of it, you know they all wet.

In reply to Admin
Oooops!

In reply to Admin

You saying Shiv retiring soon?

In reply to sabina

We can only hope.

_r

In reply to Zikdaman

Plenty red herring running.

In reply to Admin

Hope? You realize if Shiv goes WI have no 40+ test batsmen?

In reply to sabina

And?

_r

YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNN......HOME TIME...........

In reply to Admin

We probably can't compete with only one 40+ test batsman. We definitely can't compete without one.

With Shiv we will struggle to make 200 against England. Without him we will struggle to make 150.

In reply to sabina

If it was up to me (and it isn't, unfortunately), I'd drop Shiv, cut ties with the old guard entirely and rebuild for real. Win or lose, <200 or 47, it's the only way to go.

_r

In reply to sabina

With Lara we struggled to make 50 against England.

Arawak

In reply to AdminWhy would you do a thing like that? Is Shiv unprofessional?? :roll:

In reply to Spectator

Nah, just lazy. And he's too set in his ways to change now.

_r

In reply to Admin

I thought Viv was too tough on the guys, now you're telling me you want to employ the same tactics!

In reply to Spectator

Not sure what tactics you're referring to. I'd use my selectorial discretion to tell him thanks but we're moving in a different direction. Give him a medal, a plot of land even, but not a place in the new dispensation. IMHO, of course.

_r

In reply to Admin

Lazy? Compared to what? At least Shiv value his wicket. That's something others need to learn.

WI cleaned house in 1969 when Seymore Nurse was told to retire after making 200 plus.

We didn't win a test for bout 6 years after that.

We need Shiv to stick around for at least 2 more years.

In reply to Admin

Well, IMHO, you need a veteran in any rebuilding phase.....who better to have than Shiv in the present situation! Kanhai had Sobers & Gibbs....Lloyd had Kanhai & Gibbs....Richards/Richardson had a bunch of professionals....Lara/Walsh,Adams/Hooper had veterans in their respective sides...Too bad Lara decided to pout and leave when he could've been the veteran in a Sarwan lead team.

In reply to Arawak

We talking on a regular basis here. The team sometimes flopped with Lara. It will usually flop without him. It will probably nearly always flop without him and Shiv.

Shiv and Lara probably account for more of their team's test runs than any duo in WI - heck maybe cricket - history.

In reply to Admin

You with this drop everyone over thirty crap again?

In reply to Admin You know someting I endorse your point 150%. If the body have cancer removing a part of the tumor not going make it better.

I would prefer a new team void of all the old sores and if we loose all the friggen Tests and one days and develop a disciplined and committed cadre of players willing to perform with pride I would be happy.

Get rid of the festers and start fresh.

In reply to Larr Pullo

I'd start at 28 this time. Catch them while you can still change them.

_r

In reply to Nekt

Amen, brother. It's really the only way.

_r

In reply to Nekt and Ryan

I think allyu got this backwards. Allyu have one sore foot and cutting off the healthy foot. So allyu get rid of the good foot and then yu gonna treat the sore foot now. :lol:

In reply to Admin

I told you about veteran leadership...if you had listened to me back in 1999 we wouldnt be in this situation now.

WI cricket is lacking veteran leadership from top to bottom.

In reply to Larr Pullo Oh, is that is solution? If that is the case, we can only sink further. IMHO,opting for youths over veterans is very reason why we are where we are. These young, inexperience players need to compete amongst veterans at the FC level for a few season, before even being considered for test. Until, they actually displace a veteran with better numbers, they should remain at FC LEVEL.

In reply to zimzimma

Zimms, what we have suffered over the last decade or so is much worse than a sore foot.

In reply to zimzimma

Your so-called good foot carrying germs that creeping around the body. I say cut it off, walk on your hands, talk with your ears while you grow a new body.

_r

In reply to Larr Pullo

Sulking and refusing to refusing to run because the sun too hot is veteran leadership? Going and hide in your room when play ends is veteran leadership? Rolling your eyes at the new captain's every word is any kind of leadership?

If that's veteran leadership, lemme go to war with some 9 year olds.

_r

In reply to Nekt

What we will suffer over the next decade will be much worse than anything we've suffered so far. Get ready for some real pain.

In reply to Larr Pullo

That may be true, but since we ain't have any and realize that now, even it all too late.... best we make the attempt to develop and train someone that was not part of the previous problems, rather than take one from the old gang and attempt to conform them.

In reply to Admin

Why yuh trying to turn this into Shiv v Lara? 8)

In reply to Admin

And oh..btw, I looking at the Aussies bat right now and thinking how nice it is to see one big man come out to bat when another big man out....

...this experiment WI took by using test matches as a developmental league for brats is not bearing fruit.

I guess any idiot can get an article in the newpapers now - once they use the name of Lara a few times.

Maybe I should start writing

:wink:

In reply to Zikdaman

Yuh know the joke in all of this is that most people here forget we're actually playing a sport where stats matter.

We have two batsmen who have regional averages above 50. One has retired. We have three others with regional averages above 40 and people here actually believe we can compete with teams with five and six men averaging above 50 at world level. I won't even go near the bowling.

What a time to renegotiate broadcast rights. If ah laugh ah pop.

In reply to Zikdaman

I will gladly bear that pain if those inflicting it are trying their best, diciplined, hard working and playing with the pride of a region.

I will gladly take that rather than a bunch of socalled super stars wo don't give fact all about why they are representing this region.

In reply to dax

Do you know who di hell Tony Fraser is bredda?

In reply to dax

Maybe you should. We're always looking for new content. caribbeancricket SHIFT 2 gmail.com

_r

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy The theme of article is not who is the best captain or who struggled wid it. It is about looking beyond the mere cosmetic and addressing the structural....in an effort to turn around the WI fate


I was taught in Primary school that the theme of an article is stated in the headline.

In reply to Admin

A lil tough on Shiv there Ryan?

He still earns his keep - when he doesn't then he should be put to pasture as well.

BTW - I hear de man you does have the most "quiet time" in his room and aversion for work is a big tall opener.
Wasn't that the origin of his nickname?

In reply to Chrissy

All the averages, great stats, superstars and we're still a team of mediocre amateurs. The status quo has to change, as painful and gut-wrenching as it may be.

_r

In reply to Admin

Thanks.

I am writing a book and am only bout 2/3 the way through - so I got lots of work to do. Not to mention I ain't know any publisher( in their right mind) who may be interested

In reply to Dukes

Your primary school teacher ought to have been fired. The headline has nothing to do with the theme. Headline writers have one job: to get the reader to read the copy below. It's why headlines are always so 'sensational' everywhere you look.

_r

In reply to Chrissy

and where has that gotten us?

In reply to dax

A book about what?

_r

In reply to Admin

Sci fi ( astronomy and kids/teenage adventure)

In reply to Admin That is why everything is upside down.DISHONESTY RULES

Does weapons of mass destruction ring a bell???
Uranium tubes from Niger???

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

In reply to Nekt

Ok buddy, I'm passing the torch. Have to go get some work done. Keep them in line in the meantime.

_r

In reply to dax

Hmmm should I? Should I? I better not.

In reply to Chrissy How does one explain the relative success of New Zealand???

In reply to dcbreds

???

In reply to Dukes

Damn, you had to go spoil it. I was keeping NZ in my back pocket for when the heavy hitters arrive. Steeups.

_r

In reply to Admin hhhmmmmm!

In reply to bajanboy I believe Viv said they wouldn't consider him since he did not have fancy certificates. They don't appreciate his experience. (Frustration)Well B. King was full ah certs and he give up in frustration too.

In reply to Admin

Why stop at age 28?

Let’s retire all those lazy mofos above the age of 25. Given our recent history of giving debuts to 20 year olds, most of those 27 year olds would have had 7 yrs of getting set in their ways.

Let’s start over with Leon Johnson, Gaj Singh, Bharath, Pollard, R. Parris etc.

In reply to Nekt

I read somewhere that humans are notorious at being unreliable when predicting our reactions to states and conditions we aren't presently experiencing. This may be an example.

In reply to Dukes

It seems that some people here ain't realiaze cricket is team sport.

In reply to Chrissy

No and with trash like that I don't need to.

He could at least check his accuracy for his own personal pride

and when making sweeping generalizations..he may want to consider the flip side of his views before he makes it sound like gospel

In reply to Nekt

The point is, allyu weeding out the wrong thing. Allyu blaming people for the actions of grown men.

In reply to sabina

So why are you addressing this to me? Shouldn't you be replying to yourself?

You are the one making the bold and stupid predictions, not me.

Get a facting grip on yourself.

The man make more mistakes than people writing other articles that you and your ilk jump all over.

Do not get sanctimonious with me. Go argue with Ziks or somebody who, like you, read and do not understand what you are reading.

In reply to Dukes

New Zealand have bout 7 guys in the 30-40 range and bat till 11.

WI only got 4 guys over 30 in tests. Without Shiv, that would be 3.

Even then NZ is only a good ODI side and a below average test side.

In reply to Zikdaman You know me and you are aware that I am from the old school..... So don't even bother come with that line......I have enjoyed many glorious moments from in WI cricket over the years....sadly I cannot say that nothing in the last 15 years has afforded me such joys.....I consider the fortunes of the team more beneficial than the achievements of the individual......

In reply to zimzimma

Uh!!!!you seem to have your wires crossed here....we not blaming anyone for the actions of grown men....we are saying that the majority of these grown men are poor reflections of who should be representing us, lazy, slothful, disrespectful of our traditions, prima donnas, poor work attitudes, wrong priorties etc. etc. they are ingrained in their dutty ways and they should be shown the way out rather than contine to infest those not yet affected.

In reply to Nekt

Nekt, what's up bro. Well I getting mih whites together. there will be many places available.

In reply to Chrissy

"We have two batsmen who have regional averages above 50. One has retired. We have three others with regional averages above 40 and people here actually believe we can compete with teams with five and six men averaging above 50 at world level. I won't even go near the bowling."

I can't beleive it. It's like seeing Dwayne Smith play a cut shot. A UWI professor who actually understans numbers? I'm stunned.

Pity most posters here have even less comprehension of numbers than an average UWI professor.

Also of history. Remember 1969. Cleaning house led to 5 years without a test win. And that was with Gary Sobers in the side.

WI needd to develop at least 6 young batsmen who can average even 40 FC and hence 30 in tests or we will never be able to compete again. That is really whee our problem lies. But in the mean time, we better hang on to those who are now for as long as we can.

Otherwise we might start looking back on the Captain Shiv era as a golden age!

Ask yourselves this - if a Lara and Shiv less WI tour flat track spin taking Bangladesh, who would you bet on to win?

In reply to anandgb

You never get tired of red herring?

In reply to sabina

Bossman, what have those numbers given you? You really want to play with statistics? How about the W/L numbers?

_r

Let me try to do the Dr. Phil thing here - Blaming Lara is a necessary aspect of our ego-defensiveness within the cricket community - In fact, we need Lara to blame to maintain our sanity; if we didn't then where might that nasty little finger point to?

- We might say the WIBC, which was our intial target - ultimately though - and we know it - the failure of teh team and cricket points to us and our failure to build toghther as a region, our carnal desire for insularity - The reality suggests just as Rudder sings - small islands with small people producing small things, sand and all

- That is our inadequacy - our true selves - so what do we do? - we blame Lara instead and make-believe that if he goes, then Gayle will begin to move his feet and Samuels will be the next George Headley - Now be careful the players are immersed within our communities, so they might just believe it too - so there might be a short burst of higher performance, but then - Take that in your analysis, Beckles

In reply to Nekt

If we overturn the vessel and fetch replacement water from the same dirty pond, then we ought not to be surprised when the 'new' water turns out to be just as putrid as its predecessor.

Fact, is those currently in the West Indies team are a microcosm of the entire West Indies cricket structure that extends beyond cricket to ensnare every institution in the region.

Until we are willing to address the entire set up, simply replacing the 15 in the squad with another 15, plucked from the obscurity of our FC cricket will place us on tread mill to oblivion.

Why do you think every time we seem to be turning the corner we seem stuck in making another turn in the round-about of medicority?

In reply to sabina

and you think that will happen in one or two years?
and while you doing that the cancer of indiscipline, inconsistency and callous dissregard continues unabated and the 6 young ones you cry far is kept out and denied necccessary exposure and development.....heck they may even catch the cancer from business as usual....

In reply to Admin

The W/L numbers directly related to the batting and bowling numbers.

Bottom line - no team with only 4 active players with a 30+ test average will ever be competitive. One with only 3 will be even less so.

As they say, be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

In reply to jaydee

"That is our inadequacy - our true selves - so what do we doo - we blame Lara instead and make-believe "

That's just about right

In reply to Nekt

"cancer of indiscipline, inconsistency and callous dissregard continues"

If the 40+ guys indisciplined, what does that make the less than 40 guys?

In reply to jacksprat Good points bro but I am not advocating for

I will not accept that all our youngsters are already poisoined by the failings within our society. There must be folks who are willing to pull themselves out of the rut and assist in the improvement of our fortunes.

RedB and Commie made an obsevation recently about our under 15 competitions we seriously must reassess the way our youth competitions are structured and there is a need to take our young talents and develop them so that they don't go the way that the examples we have today went.

In reply to sabina

People keep bring up NZ as an example as if we could even match NZ in terms of individual stats. What are these people smoking? If our fellas had the stats of the NZ team we'd match them in wins to.

In reply to Zikdaman

Yea, I thought the captaincy, and in particular the captaincy of Lara was inhibiting the development of West Indies cricket, and on-field performance of the players.

We can only expect that things will now turn for the better.

In reply to Zikdaman

Yeah. And that's even before you factor in Bond and Franklin and Dettori.

But man, if if even our doctors and lawyers and IT nerds and wanna be novelists on this MB have such poor logical and numerical skills, how can we blame our poor uneducated cricketers for not being able to 'think' the game?

In reply to ProWI

"Yea, I thought the captaincy, and in particular the captaincy of Lara was inhibiting the development of West Indies cricket, and on-field performance of the players.

We can only expect that things will now turn for the better."

Hmmm. I remember reading lots of posts like this a couple years back when "Chandepaul Tek Ovah!" And things sure turned for the better - 1 for 20 odd - then!

'Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it'.

In reply to sabina

licks! :lol:

In reply to sabina

I wonder how many of these people who cussing Fraser disagrees with the gist of his article?

In reply to dcbreds

Man if these scribes et al are such poor thinkers, we really expect our no CXC young cricketers to do any better?

In reply to sabina Oh, now when you are backed into a corner you cry red herring? Very typical.

In reply to dcbreds Do not tell me that you will joing teh bandwagon without even reading what anyone said now.

I am amazed at teh arguments taht Sabina and Ziks making and I am really shocked that they keep harping on one thing. Yet No one on thsi thread has claimed that the WI problems are/were caused by Lara alone.

Am I missing something? Or are you guys seeing ghosts?

The author has made public statements that are erroneous. Are you aslo saying that by pointing those out we are categorically saying that because he has mistakes then it has to be Lara's fault?

Come on man, you getting too defensive already.

In reply to sabina

It is myopia, that's all.

Here the comparative runs per wicket (batting and bowling) for WI and NZ for the past 5 years:

WI: Batting 31.6 Bowling 39.9 Diff -8.3
NZ: Batting 32.4 Bowling 33.9 Diff -1.5

And if you look at WI's batting average for the past 10-15 years, you will see a continuous decline.

Also, if you include the other major test playing nations, the results are more embarrassing:

Aus: 44.1; 27.6 Diff +16.5 (WOW!!)
SAf: 38.3; 33.7 Diff +4.6
Ind: 37.5; 34.7 Diff +2.8
Eng: 36.6; 34.1 Diff +2.5
Pak: 35.2; 33.7 Diff +1.5

Source: Cricinfo

In reply to anandgb

Where do you see me defending? I am addressing the first two paragraphs in the article. It is either you agree or disagree? Telling me about errors in statistics and about what the real reasons for people leaving cricket are irrelevant to his overall point.

And some of his statements are correct, in spite of what others have said on here. But ASSUMING THAT THEY ARE CORRECT IN THEIR CRITICISMS, does that nullify his assertion?

In reply to dcbreds

Rass man why you confusing people with all these numbers?

It's much easier on the brain to just cry "Is Lara Fault!"

Just as it's much easier for Dwayne Smith to just swing cross the line than try to get to the pitch and play each delivery on merit.

This MB is just as much evidence as our WI players of the inability or unwillingness of West Indians to think clearly!

In reply to dcbreds Wow! I never see you ask for agree/disagree regarding any article. This one must have you up in teh clouds or something.

Aren't we allowed to pick holes in articles anymore?

In reply to sabina You are neing a real jackass now. Who on this thread said it is all Lara's fault?

Would you stop your childish behavior for a second? Or better yet take another vow of silence.

You sound like an irritating 5 year old crying for candy.

In reply to sabina

I argue with facts only! And I do not post rumours. WI cricket is very important and I eh letting people paint me in ah corner. No sah! So let dem come with dey crap. I go respond with facts!!! 8)

In reply to dcbreds

A"nd some of his statements are correct, in spite of what others have said on here. But ASSUMING THAT THEY ARE CORRECT IN THEIR CRITICISMS, does that nullify his assertion?"

Plain and simple reality.

In reply to dcbreds

"I argue with facts only! And I do not post rumours."

Would there were more of you on this MB.

In reply to anandgb

Only yesterday I asked whether the MO in this MB changed. People talking about give the new skipper a chance and ensure that he gets the support of the entire Board, blah blah blah. When Lara was around, that did not happen. They were leaking and cussing from day 1.

So, again, my question is simple. Do you agree with his first two paragraphs.

In reply to dcbreds I direct you to go back and read what I said before 2 idiots who lack comprehension started attacking me.

My first post on page 1. then come back and let me know why you are asking me that question. Ok?

In reply to dcbreds When Lara was captain, you did not see anyone criticise the WICB etc?

Bro, time to take a vacation.

In reply to anandgb

Ah know yuh is a bright fella, so I will assume you misread it. But he was not talking about WICB. He was talking bout the scribes who are former cricketers. So your post did not respond to the first two paragraphs to which I referred.

And my point is that they did not support Lara as captain. There was ALWAYS cussing behind the scenes. They shut up for a minute when we won the ICC trophy but that did not last long. I can go on about this if you wish but I think the point is clear. Lara (nor Shiv for that matter) never received 100% support from the Board, its representatives and the team. EVER!

In reply to dcbreds Yes, but teh scribes are not running WI cricket. The board does not have intelligent people who has the players interests at heart otherwise we would not have contract disputes everytime there is a tour.

I know you do not believe that the players should allow the psychological pressure and anger should affect the players, but it does.


But why are you questioning the request for support for the new skipper simply because the older ones did not get it?

Is it a case of the other captain did not get it, so the new kid on the does not deserve the support?

In reply to anandgb

Of course they do not run WI cricket. But they have credibility. And there continuous vitriolic attacks were distateful and unnecessary.

We had this discussion a while ago about former players making statements that, IN MY OPINION, are irresponsible and dishonest. And they are irresponsible because:

1. Their mantra was that Lara was the problem and that his complete removal will cause WI cricket to get better, which we all know is not true.
2. Some of them went beyond scribing and thus made the whole thing even worse.

Also, not only was (1) above dishonest on their part, but they did not divuldge that they were involved, which is even more dishonest.

What is SAD about these events, as Fraser correctly pointed out, is that some of these SAME people were unceremoniously booted out of WI cricket before they - and indeed the fans - were ready for them to go. They should have set a higher standard, knowing that they themselves were victims, but alas, they did not.

Alyuh could go on and on and on...

Is a 39 year old man who retired....pretty ancient by sporting standards.

Time to move on.

Why can every other captain in World Cricket retire and not have any drama and ours retire and we acting like the world coming to an end.

It's much more important that the bees seem to be dying than whether Lara plays cricket!

BTW this is for Dax.....

They found an earth like planet in the Libra constellation. Planet 528B I think....it supposedly has water.

I think the time is fast approaching when we'll have to move, big stage or not..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

In reply to Larr Pullo

The difference is that our ONLY world class batsman retired when he had at least 2 good years in him. And he will be 38 next week.

And allyuh want tuh cuss out Fraser cause he provided inaccurate info.

In reply to dcbreds

You mussy God to know he had two more good years.....better be careful before the LPA cuss yuh fuh tekking over Lara wuk!!!

Balls were passing under that facter stomach in this entire WC and people were hitting the ball straight to him and running. It was more than time he retire. I think he saw the signs.....

In reply to Larr Pullo

The only person who was outstanding on the field throughout the World Cup was Bravo. None of them odder boys stood out, and still Lara was at least on par with them.

In reply to dcbreds

"The difference is that our ONLY world class batsman retired when he had at least 2 good years in him."

Well I shudder to think what the Pakistan test tour would have been without him when he averaged 89 compared to the next WI best 41 and we still got whipped.

But I guess we will be finding out in England.

In reply to sabina

You wasting energy jousting with these idiots about this.

The article is very clear and direct and makes a popint that rubs them the wrong way. As the old people used to say -it fall in dey garden.

They read it and it throws a spotlight on their hypocrisy, makes them uncomfortable, they same way Brian Lara made them uncomfortable.

Leff them...they know not what they do and say. Fools seldom do.

In reply to redbaron :lol: :lol: right, wise men think alike and fools seldom differ.

I was wondering why you were agreeing so much with a fool. Now I have my answer. :lol: Never thought you would stoop so low.

In reply to Dukes

Well the geezer has a point.....when you consider that Jimmy had an average of 45+ before...and only 31 as skipper.

In reply to dcbreds

That is a bare faced lie.

In reply to Cheeks

If you have an alternative opinion, then state it. Otherwise, GTFA!

In reply to Cheeks

Brian dropped one slip catch and almost took a blinder. Every other catch that came his way was taken. Can you tell me dat about dem youngsters? The fact is that Bravo stood out in the field big time. Devon Smith also looked good.

In reply to dcbreds Check lara's bating average(odi) year by year from 2004 to now.................or u can do it cumulatively

Actually, quite a few of the Guyana crowd did argue that Lara was to blame for everything. Now that Sarwan is on the hot seat, all of a sudden there are broader problems....
Larr Pullo and others relentlessly argued that Lara was the enabler of indiscipline in the WI team. when Lara got forced out, they suddenly argued that Sarwan was someone who could lead on the discipline issue. I think that's plain laughable. He is as much of a slacker as Gayle and Bravo, really.

In reply to Chrissy

Lara looked fat and past it sometimes. But he certainly outfielded Dwayne Smith.

Any is irrelevant. Lara said long time he was retiring from ODI and fielding aint a huge factor in tests.

In reply to jala

See why you have no credibility? See why I tend to ignore you? You post such BS ALL THE TIME!! You either are completely ignorant about the game or just plain stupid.

WTF does Lara's one day cricket average over the past four years has to do with him playing test cricket for the next 2 years?

Why don't YOU post Lara's test statistics for the past four years, and compare them to your BOYS. Compare anything: averages, highest score, hundreds, scores > 50, % of team runs. You just name it and you will understand why some of them were bitching so much.

In reply to dcbreds How much Waugh averaged 4 years before he retired? Yet he still retired

In reply to jala


:roll: :roll: :roll: OK. :roll: :roll: :roll:

In reply to carib

Carib, how dare you write such facts here. Look this board is the bastion of rumors and scandal, please retract what you have written here :roll:

In reply to dcbreds

Aus: 44.1; 27.6 Diff +16.5 (WOW!!)
SAf: 38.3; 33.7 Diff +4.6
Ind: 37.5; 34.7 Diff +2.8
Eng: 36.6; 34.1 Diff +2.5
Pak: 35.2; 33.7 Diff +1.5

Your stats shows that England is 4th that table with a 36.6 bat/ave.....yet they are second to OZ in the ICC ranking.

My point is in tests bowlers are more important than batsmen.

All the people here has been argueing about 40+ batsmen .....but if we had 4 40+ batsmen,we would still lose.

Without decent bowlers we will never win a test series against any of the other 7 nations.

In reply to Patrickcity



Yeah lemme try something different...
Sarwan, that dedicated, hard working professional, is another Alan border . He will whip Cool Shades Gayle and Sugarboy Bravo into shape in no time...

In reply to Cleg

"All the people here has been argueing about 40+ batsmen .....but if we had 4 40+ batsmen,we would still lose.

Without decent bowlers we will never win a test series against any of the other 7 nations."

You can't win without bowlers yes. But you going to lose without batsmen.

Good batting enables you to draw plenty matches even when you bowlers not performing, like India.

In reply to carib

"Sarwan, that dedicated, hard working professional,"

Who so buss in the 90s the other day he couldn't take twos. And who keep falling asleep in the field. Remember Hayden's dropped catch at 104 or so when he went on to make 150+ ehen Sarwan was not paying attention and didn;t go nack far enough?

I see nothing in Sarwan that says he is captain material.

Ganga is a proven captain and incidentally had a higher test average than Sarwan last year.

In reply to Dukes List the blatant falsehoods barring Hooper's batting sliding.

In reply to sabina

Bina you expect that man not to be tired with all the goings on. I think yuh being unfair here
:roll: Also the fact that he may be captain. He was probably planning his acceptance speech. :roll:

In reply to Spectator Where deh skunt is that implied that Lara's career id infinite you just like that skunt Larr your bloody hatred for Lara cloud yuh blasted vision.

In reply to Patrickcity

I watch HAyden at 150 running as hard as when he was 15. I see Lara running hard at 200+. Why Sarwan can't do the same?

In reply to Dukes That is generally 99% percent of deh skunt-holes that critisize Lara's captaincy imply I don't where you been burying yuh head. I want you to name somebody who publicly critisized Lara's captaincy, but did not blame Lara's captaincy for our malaise barring Richards recently.

In reply to sabina No no Nurse had already announced his retirement before he made the double in NZ.

In reply to Larr Pullo So Lloyd and Richards were diving when deh was 38?

In reply to Patrickcity Actually he is correct regarding Guyana I was in discussuions everyday I was there about people blaming Lara for everything wrong with the West Indies team and using the word discussions I am being polite. Many of these people had played cricket at national level.

In reply to dcbreds

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

In reply to denoke

Noke, yuh ain got to tell me, Iheard this over three or four years ago, before he even became captain. I had figured is a bunch of old arseholes who can read and write deh fcuking name , excuse me. But the chorus was a groundswell with no obvious reasons. But don't tell them is envy, but everybody had a gut feeling he ain right for the West Indies. That is what made me stand up for him, this crab in the barrel thing ain start yesterday I remember as far abck as 2000 . a next argument was , he only make runs every other year , he ain good enough play eh every other year.

Yuh see nuff who talking can't be honest with themselves, I can be, never had an iron to grind with anyone, but I ain joining no foolishness. I am not a waggonist. Before I come on this Board I ain know a sould and who is for who, I love cricket. Deh bitterness knows n end and they can try to maks it. It does not bnohter me. i will die in my old age in mih sleep still fit, not of Cancer. :twisted:

In reply to carib

Are you being dishonest or simply slinging mud?

Since when Does Lara represent "quite a few of the Guyana crowd" Is that Lawyer speak for obfuscation by any chance?

I am sure by now you know that there are a lot of Guyanes on this board.

Chrissy, Dukes, PC, Ray, Runs, Javed, Narps, Spectator, Denoke, and the list goes on. Could you please tell which one of these folks (including me of course) are guilty of that crap you wrote?

Maybe it is PC cuz he seem to be riding teh wave of an orgasm at what you wrote.

Man put your facting shameless head right before making such foolish and nonsensical shyte.

You and Dcbreds etc are not required to support Sarwan or any other Guyanese if you wish. You will notice that they are teh best performers whether they get your support or not.

Denoke, yuh see what I talking about. If it was a free party he would ahve been flaunting what he had , because they did not get invited. Look the best thing he ever did was walk away. They don't deserve any better.

In reply to rikiniki

Ah does wonder why this boy does say anything about cricket you know. He does sound like ah 10 year old (or maybe a 95 year old senile man).

In reply to dcbreds

check out he Ganga thread. :D

In reply to rikiniki

I have made it my duty to ignore any thread he(?) starts. It usually means that there are a lot of lies and sissy $hyte on that thread. Most likely he(?) and he pardnah giggling about Lara or some Trini.

In reply to Cleg

Man, I do not disagree with you. I am not saying that we can win only with great batsmen. But by the same token, you have to post a competitive total for the bowlers to bowl to. Having the lowest batting average does not help us. And given that we are 13 percentage points from the Aussies means that we are not gonna be a world beater anytime soon.

I will post our numbers in the 80's a lil later to see what it shows.

Edit: Interesting: in the 1980's, our batting was 35.0 and our bowling was 25.9.

In reply to dcbreds

I doubt we have a bowler bowling at lower than 30........................so if you compared the bowling with Intl...it might show up in a worse light

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

I think Lawson is the only one, and he is about 29.something. Collymore is about 30.something. So you both may have a point - that getting top class bowlers is probably more important than getting top class batsmen. But I think you will need to prove your point very clearly. And also, you need to acknowledge that mediocre batsmen won't make you world beaters.

In reply to dcbreds

Lawson....................bowler............in the same sentence? :) :) :) :)

Seriously, I think you need both...............but bowling might be more crucial.

In the 80's how many times teams beat over 300 off us? But I have seen many times our vaunted batting collasped under 250.

Indeed the CWC83 is a case in point where the batting crumbled.

bottom line the bowlers saved us many times in 80's

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

Agreed, and the 1980's stats bear that out. But it is very unlikely that we are gonna get a four pronged all averaging sub-27, so we need to give these bowlers some runs to play with.

You realise if we lose Lara, that batting average can fall to around 29 if the other batsmen do not step up.

I haven't read this thread but it seems that Mr Fraser is one of these forgetful cricket scribes himself, or does let facts get in the way of interesting prose

Good article Mr Fraser.
Nuff said.
At some point the long talk on these MB will seep into the ego crania of those in possession of our propertyWest Indies Cricket and take action.
Maybe Gordon for all the "defense" he put up against Mr Brankers suggestions will be able to extract the cancererous cells from within the WICB and put us on a road to recovery.
But wait...we have to wait until the full board meets to get his decision about whether he stayin on or not.
sttteeeuuuppse.

In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com Thank you Tony

This is the reason WI cricket is in a total mess! Most of you as well as WICB, coaches, selectors and players lack the vision and the understanding to move WI cricket forward. I do agree with Tony 1000%. Yes Lara's captaincy needed much to be desired and mind you he did not ask for the position he was offered it and accepted. However, as a player and a batsman he still is above everyone in the team at age 37. The captain is there for tactical and motivational decisions on the field not to construct, plan, teach and run the affairs of the board. So "DON'T HATE THE PLAYER, HATE THE GAME"!