Message Board Archives

This is a CARIBBEAN cricket website, yet IGNORANCE abounds on this board when it comes to the GREATEST CRICKETER ON EARTH OR MARS, EVER.

Those of us who were blessed to see him bat, bowl and field all recognize we will never see the likes of him again. Everything he did, was done with a grace and seeming effortlessness that it seemed he could have done even more if he wanted to.

The cause of my ire was a comment from an uninformed person on this board who spoke disparagingly of him and with a dismissiveness borne out of that deadly combination of arrogance and ignorance which sadly is so pervasive in these times.

I will just mention his batting stats for the period 1958 to 1968 in the interest of brevity since many who read on this board are incapable of sustained concentration since they find it too taxing, because of their fast-food mentality.

Between 1958 and 1968 Sobers played in 53 test matches and scored 5,511 runs.That is more than 100 runs per test match.
He scored these runs while being dismissed 77 times giving him an average of 71.57. I REPEAT 71.57 over those 11 years!!!!!
He hit 19 centuries and 21 half-centuries in these 53 tests.

In reply to analyst-kid

Good observation....you're on point. Goeffrey Boycott has always said that the three greatest batsmen he ever saw was Sobers, Richards and Lara.

In reply to Dukes

In reply to sgtdjones

Ah boy. Yuh think it easy??

In reply to Dukes

I seriously doubt that Anyone can seriously challenge your statement .
What is also remarkable is that Sobers
was selected as a Bowler .

Just the walk out to the wicket was worth the ticket!

In reply to seaegg99

What was the price of ticket in those days?

In reply to Khaga

Irre facking levent

In reply to Dukes

Narper had a thread a while back inquiring about the most memorable shot posters had played in their cricket lives.

I never saw Sobers play cricket in person, but I am interested in the best shot you saw him play, the best ball you saw him bowl or the best catch you saw him take.

I would love to hear the same from other posters as well.

God you scared me with this topic title.

There is no doubt Sobers is a cricket immortal, part of the Mount Rushmore of international cricket players.

Anyone doubting his brilliance or importance to the sport should be dismissed without a blink.

Carry on.

In reply to Walco
My favourite memory of watching the greatest, is Barbados vs Trinidad at the Mecca.
Some of the umpiring decision was suspicious, Sir Gary was so angry, that at the fall of Barbados last 2nd inning wicket, he was on the field, marking out his run up, the rest was history. He gave the trines a bowling clinic that evening.
As Owen Estwick stated on radio, last Saturday, " It is downright vulgar to mention or compare him, to any other cricketer".
I had a conversation with Conrad Hunte, when he visited Calgary, Conrad said they was none better, that why he was not sad or jealous when Sir Gary was made captain.

In reply to Dukes

They are staggering statistics... over a 10 year period.... amazing !

In reply to Walco

In reply to openning

My most favorite recollection of Trinidad vs Barbados matches with Sobers as captain is with that famous picture:

Sobers walking off the field after his team was defeated for the first time in years around 1969-1970 at QPO and a Trini supporter putting up that placard saying:

COCKROACH AIN FRAID FOWL COCK NO MORE GARY!

Remember great men are always challenged and provide jubiliation for their opponents whenever they prevail although Sir Gary was revered in Trinidad.

In reply to Star

52

In reply to Walco

Missed him by that much!!!!!!!!!!
Remembered him cover driving to Greame Vivian(NZ), one the best fielders in cricket, Vivian picking up twice and firing in to the keeper. The third he just let it go!! The Oval nearly broke down

In reply to openning

Great stuff.

A Jamaican oldtimer who saw Sobers make the 365 Notout said to me in amazement, "Just imaging, a player scores his first test century and it's the highest score in the history of the game." This same guy said that Sobers was the only player in the history of test cricket who bowl a single over with 6 different legitimate deliveries -- a combination of pace and spin.

In reply to Walco
I listened to that match on radio, that day horse racing was on, and would interrupt the cricket, I cannot remember if we got hear him breaking the record.
I know this thread is about the greatest, but as a boy, I always wanted Lance Gibbs fingers to be sore, when he played against Barbados, he was that good.

In reply to seaegg99

In reply to openning

AK fav moments is Bim defeats...yuh sight!!

Bim gats mo wins dan ressa teams together

Yuh seh AK couldn't mek HC water boys team ent

In reply to openning

I remember that horse racing foolishness interrupting cricket and mekkin me vex. Unfortunately, I only observed Sobers and Gibbs as coaches.

In reply to Dukes

Who harassing de ole man?
No doubt Sobers is the greatest cricketer who ever played the game.

The only question during their playing days (among Guyanese) was who was the better batsman, Sobers or Kanhai.
Strong lines were drawn, much more passionate than Burnham/Jagan but friendlier!

(Just reporting).

In reply to che
I wrote about the umps tiefing out bimsters at the Mecca, and The Greatest showing them, who was encharged

goofballs: I am not from Guyana, but I listened to many arguments on that topic, as a by.

The Trinies ignore history and write about Ganga days as captain, which is so small.

In reply to Dukes

I agree, My most favorite inning was when him and Kanhai both go past 150 at bourda, I think it was England.

In reply to che

[b]In reply to Dukes

I have so many memories of Garry Sobers.I first saw him in 1965 at Bourda vs the Australians which was my first test match.
I was totally blown away by him and I tried to imitate the way he walked, the collar turned up etc etc.He was the coolest guy I ever saw.He seemed totally at ease with the world and his cricket was as graceful as anything I ever saw.He never seemed hurried or worried and was always relaxed and having fun.

What was fascinating to me was how people like Lloyd and Fredericks hero-worshipped him.The guy was able to do everything on a cricket field.He could field in the slips and take blinders, as well as at backward short leg and take reflex catches off Gibbs with the nonchalance of a superhero.He was excellent at cover as well and could rip a return over the stumps to the keeper if he wanted and could bowl at express pace and swing the ball late.He also bowled seam up and could move the ball both ways off the wicket.He also bowled chinamen and googlies as well as orthodox.

There is a story of him playing in an exhibition match in Malaysia and a huge crowd turned up to watch him bat and he was out for a duck.He then took the new ball and took 5 wickets in his first two overs.

I remember Bourda 1968 in the final test.He had stupidly declared in Trinidad in the 4th test and the WI lost the match so he was almost persona non- grata so he was determined to make amends.He scored 152 and was 95 not out in the second innings when the last 3 wickets fell leaving him stranded.He also took 3 wickets in both innings but could not get us the win.

Of course earlier in the series in the match in Jamaica he scored an unbeaten century on a minefield of a wicket, then took the new ball and dismissed both Boycott and Cowdrey in his first over.
As a teenager against Miller and Lindwall, he opened the batting and hit 10 fours in 43 against the famous fast bowlers.
Sir Donald Bradman rated his 254 at Melbourne as the best innings against Australia that he had ever seen.
Sobers was a once in a lifetime genius, a man who according to Clive Lloyd would give you the shirt off of his back, a man who played cricket the way it should be played.
I am overjoyed that the Bajans have honored him and it is past time that all Caribbean people and all territories do the same.

In reply to Walco
You are not 52. Why tell a lie for something as simple as that.

The math does not support that age not seeing Sir Gary.

You were nine when Sir Gary stop playing for the WI but he played some friendly games all over the place after that.

In reply to Dukes

Gary Sobers 254

Gary Sobers Test Century 3rd Test 1960 vs Australia

In reply to Emir

Why dont you shut the hell up .

This is about a great cricketer why bring up such
nonsense.

In reply to Star

You make a lot of assumptions about nine-year olds. My parents were not big cricket fans, and I was not allowed to go to cricket matches by myself at nine years old.

Another Jamaican old timer once told me that Sobers had an amazing ability to read the ball out of the bowler’s hand, and this was true to both spinners and fast bowlers.

In reply to openning

When Guy and bim play it even , but whenever Sobers was available , it was no CONTEST

In reply to Khaga


Ignarrogance.


//

In reply to tc1

My dad told me about a Shell Shield game at Kensington against Guyana - he said in that game Branker took 5 or 6 for a few runs and the fans said: if he could do that to Guyana, they don't want to see when Gibbs get the ball.He said Gibbs cleaned up everybody.

In reply to Walco


The only reason Sobers did not make more than the 365* is that spectators at Sabina that day came and took him bodily off the field.

They said they were satisfied that he had overtaken Len Hutton's top score of 364, and now they wanted him to come not out as that would forever seal his superiority.


//

In reply to Walco

1968 England vs WI at the Oval, John Snow had just remove both Butcher and Lloyd, WI in trouble, Snow , Jones and Brown roaring.

Sobers came the wicket, the field is now spread open with all nine fielders on the boundary , first 2 balls were wide outside the stumps, too wide for Garry to offer a stroke, Gary walk down the wicket,and pat down pitch, flick his collars,walk back and took guard,(smiling) the Oval was crazy, the third ball Sobers got up on his toe and flicked drive thru midwicket, the 4th ball he cover drive ,the 5th ball he drive straight pass Snow.

The 6th ball was a high full toss almost a beamer wide outside the off stump, Gary jump about 3ft in the air and slap the beamer thru point , never saw any shot like that in my life.Four consecutive 4.

The best bowling was a 1st division match, Police against Maple, Malcolm Hall- Mckenzie opening batting
Malcolm pad out to Garry 5 time, the 6th time he used his pad since he thought it was wide , it took out his leg pegas he was bowled behind his back.

He did the same to Clive lloyd in 66 , Guy vs Bim

In reply to TheTrail

kool,your dad told u what Sobie did to Malcolm.

In reply to sgtdjones
Thanks for taking me down memory lane with that 1960/61 series, had tears watching and listening.
Frank Worrell was a leader, I remember the first test match, our school was allowed to listened to, was when he scored 197 not out

In reply to openning

In reply to tc1

Some real old men here!
Thanks for the anecdotes.
It is different to hear real live experiences rather than a scorecard.

In reply to tc1

In reply to Walco

I saw him at the oval in PoS.NUFF SAID

Try watching the world X1 vs Australia.

That match and the comments on and about it will make you full of pride for the man.
That 254 was one of the best knocks I have seen.

All thee modern day pundits who have not seen greatness nor grace on the field is only espousing fast food mentality.
He was opening bowler, spin bowler, 1st slip, leg slip, can bat anywhere and at any position and was one of the best catchers and actually had the record for most catches.

In reply to tc1

WAS THERE LIVE AT HE OVAL IN 68. First time I saw 2 bowlers reach both ends of the oval to start their run ups as per Snow and Brown.

In reply to goofballs

Would love to see TODAY'S STARS FACE DOWN BOWLERS WITH ONLY THEIR CAPS ON AND UNLIMITED SHORT BALLS coming at them.

In reply to tc1
I watched that match.

Gary also hit a massive six off the back foot over long off.

In reply to Emir

Your post is uncalled for. It is off the Topic and is borderline race baiting.
Nuff said.

In reply to rillo

there were 3- SNOW, brown and Jones

In reply to Hants

yes, indeed

In reply to goofballs

kool

In reply to Ewart

There was a thread here on CC a few years back that went on for about 400 posts. In that thread I asked hubert several questions about Sobers and why he is so universally worshiped in Jamaica. Hubert graciously indulged my questions. Solidrock also featured heavily on that thread. I wish I had saved it.

From the Michael Manley book, "A History of West Indies Cricket":

In reply to Ewart

In reply to Walco

Heavy duty Maths!!

** Must Watch ** Documentary on Batting Legend Sir Garfield Sobers

In reply to Walco

The other thing about Sobers was, apart from being very easy and friendly, was how magnanimous he was. Not just when he declared to give England the match and series.
Royalty? King of cricket was broad hearted.
Everybody who knew him talked about that.

Wadekar or some Indian player talked about Sobers seeing him practice in nets in Bombay with old boots on. Sobers had new boots delivered to him.

I like the many times he saved us as captain.

Third Test WI vs NZ 1972 at Bridgetown.

At the end of the first day, a WI team with only Sobers as an experienced Test batsmen...NZ were 31/0 after skittling WI out for a paltry 133.
NZ went on to score 422 with Sobers getting the most wickets with 4/64.

Behind by 289 runs and at 171/5 WI was facing defeat until Sobers arrived and with Davis put on a 254 run partnership Sobers 142 Davis 183 and with the tail batted WI to a draw.

Link Text

In reply to sgtdjones

Just started watching that video and it cracked me up how umpire Dusty Rhodes gave that lbw decision to Sobers' bowling. He raised his right hand while turned sideways looking towards the midwicket boundary, then folds his arms

In reply to goofballs

In reply to Drapsey
Canarsie!

In reply to camos

Thanks. Took care of that typo.

Everyone who actually saw Sobers play cricket, say the same thing. He looked as though he could do more if he wanted. He took no pleasure in scoring runs when there was no pressure or the bowling was very weak, hence his poor record against New Zealand. In 1972 he was a bystander when the likes of Rowe, Kallicharran and Fredericks mauled the New Zealand bowling. It was only when the West Indies were in trouble in Barbados that he buckled down and scored 142 to save the WI from defeat.
In 1970,the South African tour of England was cancelled and a Rest of the World team was assembled to play England. There was talk that Eddie Barlow was as good an all-rounder as Sobers. That talk was put to rest in the very first "Test" when Sobers took 6 wickets for 21 runs and scored 183 in what could only be described as a display reminiscent of when an adult was playing against pre-pubescent boys.
What is astonishing about Sobers is that he performed all these amazing feats while drinking and carousing and generally enjoying a care free life. His record in the Sheffield Shield in Australia in the early 1960's made an indelible impression on a young Ian Chappell who refuses to entertain the possibility that anybody could bat like Garry. His bowling in those years was absolutely top notch garnering 50 wickets in consecutive seasons to be among the top wicket takers.He had the knack of getting opening batsmen out within the first 3 or 4 overs.In a test match in England in 1963 he told Worrell that he should give him the new ball as he could dismiss the opening batsman cheaply. Worrell obliged and at the end of the first over England had lost a wicket without a run on the board. A careful analysis of the times he has actually opened the bowling will show an extraordinary amount of opening batsmen either LBW or bowled for 0 or 1 or 2 within the first 5 overs. As late as 1973 at age almost 37 he was taking breathtaking reflex catches off Gibbs at backward short leg. Bishen Bedi, the great Indian left arm orthodox bowler speaks of Sobers in God like terms. The cricketers who I have met personally who played with him speak of him as if he was from a different planet such is their admiration of him. It is therefore laughable when people compare Jacques Kallis to him based on the similarities of their statistics.

In reply to Dukes

U best post...

Sheffield Shield with South Australia

In the 1961–62 Australian season which followed the 1960–61 West Indies tour, Sobers and his West Indian colleagues Wes Hall and Rohan Kanhai returned to Australia to take part in the Sheffield Shield. Sobers played for South Australia and had an enormous impact on attendances, causing an 89% increase with gate receipts rising "by two and a half times".Harte, p. 481. He topped both the batting and bowling averages at South Australia, his best performance being against champions New South Wales at the Adelaide Oval when he scored 251 and took 3/51 and 6/72. Retrieved on 16 August 2009.

He was even more outstanding in 1963–64 when, largely due to his efforts, South Australia won the Sheffield Shield. Sobers was the season's leading runscorer with 973 at 74.84 and the leading wicket taker with 47 at 28.27.Harte, p. 491.

Sobers spent three seasons with South Australia and in two he achieved the rare double of 1000 runs and 50 wickets..

The greatest Cricketer the World has ever seen


THE MERRYMEN OF BARBADOS ~ GARY SOBERS

The greatest cricketer of the World or Mars
Mighty Sparrow Calypso - * Sir Garfield Sobers *

Gary Sobers vs Denis Lillee, one of the greatest cricket battles

In reply to Baje

We both remembered the same event and that the same of that shot, see my post.great batting from the God.

In reply to Dukes/ Sargt

Many say that 132 of the tie match was one of the greatest innings of all time, as Sobers had scores under 10 at the start of the tour 1960.

The 132 was in 131 minutes and contain 25 fours.

Sir Garfield "Garry" Sobers: The greatest all-round cricketer of all time

DECEMBER 16 2016

Sir Garfield Sobers at 80: lessons from a cricket genius

Dean Jones

In reply to tc1

The genius of Sobers was that every time the talking heads identify a bowler or a player to rival him or to triumph over him, Garry goes out of his way to silence them in a most emphatic way.Prior to that first test, they claimed that Benaud had his number. The result was that Benaud was mauled by Sobie in that first test.

In another scenario,in 1966 prior to the BG vs Barbados match at Kensington the BG Manager Berkeley Gaskin was boasting about Clive Lloyd being a great batsman in the making. Result-Lloyd bowled Sobers 0.Barlow as good as Sobers-Sobers 183 and 6-21.The list goes on and on.

I have told the anecdote of BG wicketkeeper Sydney Jackman dropping Sobie off Gibbs when he had about 15 runs.Gibbs swore at Jackman and when Sobie dropped a double-century on BG, Gibbs said that Jackman must never play for the country again.HE DID NOT!!!!

As far as I am concerned, Sobie is the best New ball bowler ever in terms of him getting openers out in the first over.

In reply to Dukes

Nice thread.

threads like this should be archived....and retrievable for future reference.

Like you, I saw Sobers in my first attendance to test cricket in 1965 at Bourda

Sobers Interview about 6 sixes in an Over

Got a few bbelly laughs watching this video

In reply to Dukes

Serious question to you and the other posters. Have you ever seen Sobers play a shot off the front foot? The reason I ask is that the shots I witnessed in the video posted by Sarge were all off the back foot

In reply to Walco

Man....Sobers can play every shot in the book....and with awesome power...

In reply to Narper

Seems like he was mostly a back foot player. Sixes to long on and long off from the back foot. Not something mere mortals do on a regular basis.

In reply to Walco

I never saw him play

What was stated in the above video you posted, that struck home was

Yes, we have in today's cricket all rounders. But none to date could bowl so many variations with that red ball.

That in itself makes him unique.

I sit here wondering playing all over the world the stories he could tell about the greats of past years, mind boggling.

In reply to Dukes

Unlike Dukes and many others, I saw the other side of Sobers.
He had been thought of as God, not human, by all of us.
I enjoyed his various strokes, etc. but I got a bitter taste of reality when our own policeman Winston English bowled him.
Can you imagine God appearing as just a mere human to an 8-10 yr old? Crushed!!
Kanhai, we know, will get out sometimes cheaply but entertainingly. Not Sobers who was more perfection manifest, walking with the Gods.
(At least my perception then).








He made a mere 150! But, the God part was debunked. I never idolized them anymore. Earlier, I had proof that Father Christmas was just my father.

In reply to goofballs

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The policeman Winston English will always be famous for having Sobers bowled for 165.My cousin who now lives in Trinidad was so upset at the dismissal that he cried and claimed that the ball hit a piece of mud.

In reply to Dukes


Was that the Innings where English appealed Five times in a row for LBW against Garry, only to be turned down by the Umpire ?

In Hindsight, I would think one of those appeals had to be very close, if you think about it... A left handed Seamer getting one to straighten up to the left handed batsman... Anyway, its all history now.

Also, Didn't young Lloyd score a Century in the Second Innings of the 1966 match at Kensington when Gary dimisssed him for a Duck in the first Innings ?

It seems as though Cricinfo removed the Archived records of past W.I. domestic seasons...

In reply to Dukes


I am glad I got to see some of him over a few years at Bourda.
I like his run up also. Quite unique, from a broad angle.

In reply to Elsie

yes, indeed , Lloyd made a century in the 2nd innings brilliant , but he tantalize him in the 1st innings, He made him look like a novice.


Dukes posted a narrative on this match.

In reply to Elsie

Lloyd did score a century in the second innings 107 to be exact and then went on to Sabina Park and scored 194 but was not selected for the tour of England.In those days he used to work at the Georgetown Hospital.

Can you imagine being on a South African cricket website now reading about Kallis being the best cricketer ever? What can you tell them that Stats isn’t already proving? Apart from us being a bunch of old fcuks, what other arguments you can explain to a less than 40 year old?

Get with the program and enjoy your moment of greatness but don’t think you can just pass it on. We also have the rights to judge like previous generations !

In reply to WestDem

Fresh licks always bring out the dust of the past..

In reply to Khaga

These fcukers will not change! First it was a question of what define greatness and now this to reinforce Sobers greatness.we sometimes forget that there can be multiple greats! How Serena can be considered the GOAT and not Bradman confirmed de hypocrites here!

In reply to WestDem

In these guys' view, tennis has evolved but cricket hasn't. I am reading this by Garry Kasparov,arguably the greatest Chess player of all time. His deep appreciation of the past masters and modern greats is an object lesson even for layman fans.
It's quite understandable for people to be infatuated with Sobers' collar and Viv's chewing gum. Those are no reasons to dismiss modern masters..

Deep insecurity of WI fans in general and several posters on this thread in particular comes to the fore when WI cricket goes thru utter humiliation ,which has been a recurring theme. The recent appreciation accorded to the feats of Steve Smith and Virat Kohli is a chief reason for this thread to come out with a particular aim to belittle modern masters..

In reply to WestDem

Bolt is GOAT, Serena is GOAT..Pele is GOAT,Sobers is GOAT..so,it's clearly not about the era..there is something else..a recurring pattern..

In reply to WestDem

Cussbud

NO one is saying that you dont have such rights, we live in democracies. Some even under Trump.

If we look at the total picture including stats plus incidentals and what his opponents had to say about him,
curiosity appears.

Then look at the generation that player played vs improvements in protection, rule changes , quality of pitches , his competition, quality of players he had around him as teammates. Could he take the team to a higher standard single handed and control the game
with bat and ball.

WE get a better picture

His ability to focus and bat for long periods, accelerate the scoring at will. The countries that wanted him to play in their FC leagues.
The quality of bowlers he faced during his career.

His skills?

The ability to bowl and to change when he felt it was necessary. To open the bowling then changing to spin of various modifications, can bowl numerous types of spin
as the wicket dictated.Ability to take catches close in on players.

Skills that demanded work ethics

How many games did he miss during his career.
What were his career achievements did some stand the test of time.

The above are few of the area's one must look at.
I didn't have much time today and will look at what others said about him and how he will be rated against some of the best to have played the game.

How many of his type have appeared after he left the game.Was he unique and no one followed his footsteps
or couldn't develop such skills.

How many showed the same skills he had on the field of play, ball, bat catch and to change a game at will.
He must be one of a kind, it would then be difficult to have any comparison.

Do you consider 33 years old to be as you noted?

Peace

In reply to Khaga

In reply to sgtdjones

A very sweet thread, nonetheless!

In reply to Walco

Almost all the great West Indians were back foot players primarily.

In reply to Khagka

You left out Michael Jordon or LeBron James [take yr pick]

And Hank Aaron baseball
G.O.A.T.

Your conclusion is that....

Black people (excluding Indians) rule the roost in all the major sports?

Your evidence presented is extremely compelling.

I would say your case is a slam dunk....a six outa the park...a home run....a sure winner...

In reply to Dukes

I first started listening cricket when Sobers had a rare bad period.

What was to be an ordinary Indian team was touring. A yuound team, India was rebuilding and it was to be another walk in the park.

Suddenly all hell broke loose. An Indian called Gavaskar emerged from nowhere. Not just with runs at the top...He was not afraid of pace. That was rare for Indians, and suddenly he wasnt alone and inspirering his team. Backed by good captaincy, a wiley veteran in Sardesai, huge turning and accurate spinners and a damn good team overall we were suddenly in trouble.

Things even got worse as a freakish Indian bowler called Abid Ali took a liking to Sobers high backlift. Duck were everywhere. Kanhai and co. were doing ok, but it wasn't enough we were in too deep.

Old timers were going crazy. But IT wasn't mostly about just West Indies, not about the uselessness of Dowe or the hitherto unseen brilliance of Gavaskar....

It was about about Sobers...or about the one time that West Indians realized he was human.

Thats when he became a god for me.

In reply to Tagwa1

In reply to Dukes

But that's my point....lol.

Those ducks to Ali and our loss...made him human.

In reply to Tagwa1

iT MUST BE NOTED that India's only defeat on that tour was at the hands of a Babados team captained by Sobers

Link Text

As you will see by then Hall and Griffith had ended their test careers but this Bajan team boasted a five prong of Hall,Holder,Boyce,Shepherd and Sobers. The WI put their faith in Dowe as their sole express pacer and the rest is history.

In reply to analyst-kid

It's in a sense the important trasition to express pace and 4 prong. As you rightly point out Dowe was the only fast man and more of wild pace. Shilingfod and holder ECT. Were medium fast.

The coming of Roberts signaled a new emphasis on express pace under Lloyd and post Sobers.

In reply to Walco

In reply to Tagwa1

In reply to Ewart

I found this in Michael Manley's book:

More from Manley's book regarding the 1958-59 tour of India and Pakistan:

In reply to Walco

If that is what Michael's book says, then ok. The distinction to make, however, is this:

Damage to the wicket might have ended the West Indies innings but Sobers' innings did not end because of damage to the pitch. He was taken off the field before the West Indies innings was called off.

That would then leave room for the discovery of the pitch damage, followed by Alexander's decision.

I will try to see what Becca remembers of that day...


//

In reply to Ewart

In reply to Ewart
Mr.Manley's book was not without a few factual errors.

In reply to jacksprat

Becca seh it tek Sobers 10 hours and 14 minuted to make the 365 and Manley seh it tek 10 hours and 8 minutes ...

Garry Sobers played many astonishing innings in his career. Naturally people tend to focus on his 365*,his 254 vs Australia and the 6 sixes he hit.
Let us propose his top 5 test centuries with explanations. I will propose my top 5 test centuries and later I will give my explanations.

1.113* vs England 1968 at Sabina Park
2.163* vs England 1966 at Lords
3.132 vs Australia 1960 at Brisbane
4.142 vs New Zealand 1972 at Kensington Oval
5.365* vs Pakistan 1958 at Sabina Park

In reply to Hanover


Yes, agreed. Sobers' innings was ended by the field invasion. No dispute there...

What was being discussed, however, is whether that same invasion ended the West Indies' innings of 790. I did not think so, but you know how memory is...

Spoke with Becca last night and he will check it and let me know. Probably not today as he is undergoing a minor surgery as we speak.


//

In reply to Walco


Ah wondah wha'appen to dat six minutes...





//

In reply to Dukes

That 1968 innings at Sabina was something else, with cracks all over the pitch. If memory serves me right I believe he got a first ball duck, LBW to a John Snow shooter in the 1st innings, before the entry applause of the fans had even died down. Then, he made that hundred with the WI following-on in the 2nd innings. Saw parts of that innings on TV. Remember watching England holding on for dear life in extra time added on that Wednesday because of the bottle throwing incident on the Monday. Had a front row seat in front of the school TV watching Gibbs and Sobers trying their best to get in as many overs as possible to win the match for the WI that last day.

Back then, I don't remember any mention of abandoning the match, because of the condition of the pitch. In that match Nurse as a opener made a very aggressive 60 odd, if I remember correctly,in the 2nd innings. I remember that Saturday afternoon he was putting such a beating on the ball they had to have a ball change. Comacho at the other end was resolute in defence, digging out some shooters.

In reply to CWWeekes

I remember it exactly as you stated it!!!!

In reply to Ewart
Thanks, man. I am reading this thread with great interest – not just reading, but learning from people who lived the experience. Like Walco, I never saw Sobers. As a matter of fact, my first West Indies cricket great is the latter years of Richie Richardson.

I hope Becca will be OK.

In reply to Ewart

Becca on the 365 not out:

In reply to Hanover

Yes, I am pretty sure he will be alright.

Kingston was Sobers' happy hunting ground in more ways than one. If you wanted confirmation of that you just had to go up to the Student's Union at UWI Mona for fete on a Friday or Saturday night... and Gary would be there! Him and Wes Hall! They loved the place!





//

I have two problems with Sobers.

He keeps on criticizing our players of international quality as money chasers.
Now, this pro went all over the world to ply his trade, Nottinghamshire, Australia, Rhodesia(my second issue with the governments, WICB)

In reply to goofballs

Sobers might have gone all over the world playing cricket but he was always available to play for the West Indies!!!
As a matter of fact, in 1962 he played a Sheffield Shield match in Australia and took 7 wickets as well as scored a double century, then left Oz the night the match ended and arrived in Port of Spain the night before the first test vs India where he took a catch in the slips before lunch.Sobers played 85 consecutive matches for the West Indies.

In reply to Dukes
I knew you would come through!
You have facts.
Question is still, calling players money chasers.
I did not hear a qualifier like at the expense of country.
I firmly believe that a laborer or artiste should seek the best compensation for his trade and see what the market would bear.
Many are jealous. One would think that the ole timers are probably pretty pissed compared to their days playing for pennies.




There are about 10 WIndians in IPL alone with a fat guaranteed paycheck for 6 weeks ?work. Plus those in PCL, Bangla, Big bash, etc. Is there any guarantee that they would all be selected for WI knowing that only 11 will make the side and many Sammy like guaranteed spots already taken up?
I thought that if they got guaranteed contracts from WICB then they are obligated/mandated to play for country first.

My issue with Rhodesia is the hypocrisy and double standards exhibited by the regional governments and WICB.

In reply to goofballs

If you knew Garry Sobers you would know that jealousy is not a part of his makeup.

BTW Do you guys know that Garry is one of only 4 West Indian bowlers to take 1000 wickets in first-class cricket!!!!!!

In reply to Dukes



I did not call his name!!

Plus, in your olden days, didn't the counties automatically release players to go play test cricket? It was less complicated then.

In reply to goofballs

Did the counties use to pay more than international matches?

In reply to Khaga

I imagine so but Dukes is an encyclopedia!
Defer to him.

Just saw this about Garry

In reply to Dukes

In reply to Elsie

Are you suggesting that Sobers would not be as great if he played today?

In reply to Walco


With the Talent he was gifted with, he probably would. But we will never know.

In reply to Elsie

In reply to Elsie

I was puzzled by that 2-hour drive since it seemed an exaggeration. What is indisputable though is the fact that the match in Australia ended on February 13 and the Trinidad test began on February 16.He took 7 wickets on that last day after scoring 252 and on the first day of the test match took a slip catch off Hall to get rid of Contractor before lunch, scored 40 runs and took 2-28 and 4-22.

In reply to Elsie

In reply to Dukes

i am not getting into a discussion again but i still cannot understand how his bowling stats are so just above average for all the prowess described time and again

maybe you did explain this before

his avg is 34 and his sr 91 (i am sure that is not correct)

In reply to doosra

It is a pity that we are unable to separate out his fast bowling from his spin bowling.He did not start bowling his fast stuff in test cricket until the Australian tour in 1960-61 so that helps separate out his pre-OZ statistics.That improves his stats significantly.

In reply to Dukes

i think one can still do that...but it will be tedious

one of these days but then maybe we wouldn't know which match he bowled what...perhaps we can use an estimate (period for when he was fully fast)

In reply to Elsie
Thank You!

It's a good thing I witnessed the latter half of sobers' career and not relying on stats

and Devin is berated repeatedly for applying selective filters..oh the hypocricy!

In reply to doosra

Actually, it is impossible since he bowled both pace and spin in the same innings sometimes and I am pretty sure the scorers were not compiling stats separately for pace and spin.Quick calculations show that pre-Oz 1960-61 he took 40 wickets in 31 tests at 44.98 with a strike rate of 116.25.
That means he took 195 wickets in 62 tests at 31.79 and a strike rate of 86.91 post-Oz 1960-61.
Again, he bowled a significant amount of spin from 1961 onwards so it is impossible to distinguish.I would say that Sobers was an average orthodox slow-left arm spinner, an above average slow left-arm chinamen and googly bowler, a very good left-arm fast bowler and an outstanding new ball bowler. He rarely took the new ball for the WI because of the presence of Hall and Griffith but when he did he was lethal.He bowled with the new ball for South Australia and had an astonishing record in terms of early breakthroughs.

BTW for some perspective, Lance Gibbs strike rate in test cricket is 87.75

In reply to Dukes

To what would you attribute the high strike rates for Gibbs and Sobers? Different lbw rules?

In reply to Walco

Like everything in life, it is a complicated and multifactorial situation.WRT Gibbs, my main criticism of Gibbs was his inability to bowl from around the wicket.He was asked a million times to bowl around the wicket particularly on turning wickets but he always felt it would affect his line. Also, the LBW rules and the use of technology would have given Gibbs at least another 50 wickets. I was at Bourda in 1968 when Colin Cowdrey and Alan Knott basically used their pads to keep Gibbs and to a lesser extent Sobers out.In today's cricket, they would have been given out at least a dozen times.The Umpire at the time was Kippins who in conversation with me several years ago told me that according to the rules at the time, he could not give them out.Incidentally, that convo with Kippins was published on the front page here on Cc.com.
A third factor was the superior ability of batsmen against spin bowling back in the day.People like Kallicharran, Graveney and , Barrington were excellent against spin.

In reply to Dukes

You are on to something there. After that series lbw law was changed

If one reads this forum,one is less to believe that West Indies players were always disaffected by the changes in always..smh..

In reply to Khaga

Fact my friend. Cowdrey and Knott were allowed to pad out Gibbs and Sobers. They just kick the ball away. The rule was changed immediately to make you out if you played no stroke

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

Could very well be. How come I don't see one law change or law that did NOT disaffect you? Did you guys ever admit unlimited bouncers gave your physical fast bowling ( am refraining from my favorite phrases) a huge advantage?

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

For the purpose of enlightenment, how do you reconcile this statement, “The rule was changed immediately to make you out if you played no stroke”, with the following?

In reply to Hanover

Fuzzy didn't watch that series..

The numbers are what they are..if you extrapolate for the past greats, we can apply the same to the modern greats! The bankruptcy of modern greats in your team makes you myopic!

In reply to Hanover

Jimmy obviously convinced the umpire's he was playing a stroke

In reply to Walco

Go to you tube and pull up world xi vs Australia with Sobers as captain of d world xi and look t his 254 and listen to the comments afterwards.
He dismantled Llillee.
Great stuff .

In reply to Khaga



Anyway, Fuzzy is a cricket historian, so, you know, it is an easy reconciliation.

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

In reply to Elsie

Where is it advanced?
Now you have piss poor batsmen and the couple like KOHLI and Smith they are anointed as greatest.
You have more piss and weak bowlers to bowl to your new superstars nd they make them look great.
Would like to see Kohli, Lara, Tendy and Smith bat without helmets against sustained 140 kmh 4 prong pace attacks.Without all the laws against bowlers withdrawn.
They may succeed a bit but I doubt it. Lara and Smith yes the other 2 doubt it.

In reply to Hanover

Less popular are the efforts of batsmen like Richie Richardson and lesser mortals to pad them away unsuccessfully..

Distortians er..historians galore..

In reply to Khaga

You would stop at nothing to crown Kolhi the GOAT

The thing is..great players who have seen Sobers including WI,Eng and Aus players all accede to Sober's greatness.

You find players and fans who have never seen Sobers question his greatness.

Is it just nostalgia?

I find this is the same thing with Pele.

Great players who have played with and against Pele and Sobers keep saying they are on a different level to everyone else.

In reply to analyst-kid

That's true for the greats of any era..Players who played with and against a great will always say it..Nothing special about Sobers or Pele in that regard..

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

This thread is about Sobers. Lets stick to the topic and debate the hypocricy of selective filtering of stats..

In reply to analyst-kid

Sachin Tendulkar to a large extent and Brian Lara to some extent..

Just heard a commentator say that the great Sir Garry said you can't get out caught if you hit the ball along the ground. Didn't Sobers also say there's more space in the air than along the ground?

Here are some stats that show just how good Garry Sobers was.
In 35 test matches between his 21st and 82nd test match his test average was 60 or more.

Look at this

Look at highest test average between 101 and 158 innings for G.S. Sobers.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The GREATEST CRICKETER ON EARTH OR MARS