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Santa Claus

 
black 2018-12-09 12:27:04 

Why would anyone make up a fictional character and feed it to kids and leave them to find out that he is not real, either by being ridiculed by friends for being naive or parents eventually coming clean by admitting to lying?

 
sgtdjones 2018-12-09 12:47:59 

In reply to black

You mean there is no fat guy with a bag?



shock

 
black 2018-12-09 13:03:47 

In reply to sgtdjones

There are lots of fat guys with bags but they are not coming from the North pole and they are not flying in sleighs. lol

 
bravos 2018-12-09 13:35:19 

In reply to black

Simply for control,just like the monster stories to make kids come home early or not pass a certain points etc,similar to the all knowing man made gods keeping check of your sins,but Santa is the least hostile of the fictional characters,but "he knows if your'e good or bad,so be good for goodness sake" (else you won't get a gift)...

Just typical human mind control games...

 
Norm 2018-12-10 01:01:04 

In reply to black

Why would anyone make up a fictional character

As usual, you start out with no knowledge of the subject matter, and are proud of your ignorance. Your desire to mock religion clouds your opportunities to learn about matters that appeal to your natural curiosity. So, you remain ignorant, despite the signals from your mind.

Santa Claus (Jack Frost, Snow White, working dwarfs, etc), the Xmas tree, the sacks of gifts, the giving of gifts, the natural objects hung from the Xmas tree, carols, etc, were based on old European customs associated with the celebration of the winter solstice (December 21 or 22). These customs existed among old Germans, Slavs, Gauls, and others.

There is a history about these matters, and how the customs were imported into Christianity as part of the Christian "conquest" of these "heathens", after the Romans conveniently took up Christianity, alongside their worship of Roman gods. Perhaps if you study these matters you might equip yourself intellectually to discuss religion intelligently and constructively.

Meanwhile, your anti-religious rants will appeal to others who also consider themselves "learned", but are just as ignorant as you in such important matters.

 
black 2018-12-10 06:15:48 

In reply to Norm

Blah, blah, blah.

It's fictional, is there anything incorrect about that statement?

By the was, I knew about the origin.

 
Drapsey 2018-12-10 07:06:48 

In reply to Norm

Santa Claus is an invention of (or was popularized by) the Coco-Cola Company, circa 1920s.

You can bet a lot of Cokes were sold then, and since, compliments of the advertisement(s).

 
black 2018-12-10 07:42:29 

In reply to Norm

You are making a fool of yourself.

Your desire to show everyone how intelligent you are, does not disprove the fact that Santa Claus is fictional.

 
Ayenmol 2018-12-10 07:44:32 

In reply to black

You or your wife never celebratedthe holiday?

does not disprove the fact that Santa Claus is fictional


Everyone knows Santa is fictional...so is spiderman, marvel comics, kids own madeup invisible friends...

So do you feed your kids any of that?


Evolution is fictional too...so is the nonsensical origi al premise of the Thread...just made up!

 
Emir 2018-12-10 08:32:57 

In reply to black

You are making a fool of yourself.


Seems like poster Norm took you to the cleaners Sister Black. big grin

BTW, sincere question, do you celebrate Xmas in way shape or form?

I am asking because all the Hindus I know, and some Muslims do "celebrate" a cultural type of Xmas as is popular back home.

 
sgtdjones 2018-12-10 09:16:47 

In reply to black

You are being chastised for your beliefs in a democracy,
interesting isn't it.

Even Christianity mentioned.

God forgives? How about Joshua 24:19 -- "he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins."

Heaven is everlasting? Not according to Mark 13:31 -- "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away"

Bible thumpers are tunnel vision cults. They pounce on the weak, gathering gold, the Churches are now the richest entities on Earth.
Should they fail to convert you into their fictional diatribes, you will then be criticized.

lol

 
Norm 2018-12-10 09:28:00 

In reply to black

Blah, blah, blah.

Starting to be rude now, aren't you? Is that your concession speech? BTW, I am not inhibited by any religious code of conduct. So, don't start something you cannot deal with.

It's fictional

It is every bit as fictional as the Big Bang Theory, etc. No one made up the people from which today's Santa Claus was based, because they were real, as was the Yuletide, celebration of the winter solstice, etc.

is there anything incorrect about that statement?

smile It there anything correct about it?

I knew about the origin.

Go ahead. Humor me.

If you knew the origin, you wouldn't have started out with your usual asinine assumption, which shows no respect or appreciation for the history or wisdom of the past.

Your desire to show everyone how intelligent you are

As I just said, you are incapable of appreciating when someone is trying to share something of value with you, thinking that it stems from vanity for attention. Believe me, I don't have to contribute to anyone's thread here, but I do, hoping that hard-earned knowledge would find fertile soil and benefit someone else.

 
black 2018-12-10 09:34:56 

In reply to Norm

Norm, please!!!

I stand by my statement that it is fictional.

All the nonsense that you are spewing does not change that FACT.

 
sgtdjones 2018-12-10 09:43:20 

In reply to Norm

It doesn't matter that St. Nicholas was given such status.

In the 16th Century in northern Europe, after the Reformation, the stories and traditions about St. Nicholas became unpopular.

Just as Rudolph referred to as male.

Did you know that Rudolph and Santa's other reindeers might well be all girls!? Only female reindeer keep their antlers throughout winter.

There's a Christmas Urban Legend that says that Santa's red suit was designed by Coca-Cola! Long before coke had been invented, St Nicholas had worn his Bishop's red robes.

Coca-Cola agreed that the red suit was made popular by Thomas Nast not them!

Conclusion

Saint Nicholas, also known as Santa Claus, was born in an unknown month of 270 AD so he would now be 1,748 years old.

As the thread Originator noted its a tradition that is fictionally based on the generosity of a rich man many years ago and has nothing to do with religion.

The Original celebration was New Year's eve later changed to December 25th

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 09:46:33 

In reply to Norm

hoping that hard-earned knowledge would find fertile soil and benefit someone else.


On a black thread? Surely you jest.

 
Norm 2018-12-10 09:49:36 

In reply to Emir

Thanks, Emir. I honestly hate to "criticize" others, but allowing crass ignorance to go (un)admonished would be even worse.

I will bet that India has customs with similarities to Xmas traditions, because some Indians came from northern temperate lands, where such traditions originated. The fir tree ("Christmas tree"), sleigh, Santa's clothing, etc, should be strong indicators about the northern origins of the Santa tradition.

That too should lead to the conclusion that "Christmas" cannot really be about Jesus, because Jesus never lived in a land of snow, reindeer, etc. I haven't studied the topic much, but I believe that the Bible does not support the notion that Jesus was born in winter.

For Black, the only value to be derived from the apparent issues with Santa is another opportunity to mock religion. And, his crass ignorance finds supporters! If the God of the Bible, Koran, etc, really exists, his patience must be almost infinite.

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 09:50:26 

In reply to sgtdjones

Santa Claus (Jack Frost, Snow White, working dwarfs, etc), the Xmas tree, the sacks of gifts, the giving of gifts, the natural objects hung from the Xmas tree, carols, etc, were based on old European customs associated with the celebration of the winter solstice (December 21 or 22). These customs existed among old Germans, Slavs, Gauls, and others.


You are absolutely missing the point of what Norm is saying.

black recently lost a family member.
It is reasonable for me to assume the family member had a funeral service that black attended. Most likely in a church.

Do I need to explain any further about customs and of all people black partaking in said customs?

 
Norm 2018-12-10 09:51:13 

In reply to nick2020

On a black thread? Surely you jest.

smile There is hope even for Black!

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 09:52:34 

In reply to Norm

but allowing crass ignorance to go admonished would be even worse.


Then you would have a full time job posting in black's threads.
Remember black quit his job but had the luxury of going back as he pleased.

I think I figured out who black is - George Costanza quits job and returns.

 
black 2018-12-10 09:56:29 

In reply to nick2020

Everyone on here knows you are a fence sitter, you don't have the guts to stand for anything.

Your aim is to please everyone!!!

 
sgtdjones 2018-12-10 09:56:44 

In reply to nick2020

What I am concerned about is We live in a democracy.

This individual has the right to post his views, one can debate him and show him the other side.

It's the tunnel vision syndrome that is of concern and such
can be found in religious zealots.

They see black and white, ignoring the grey.

Such leads to character assassination, eventually.

Live and let live is my moto.

lol

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 09:58:27 

In reply to sgtdjones

This individual has the right to post his views


And the audience has the right to boo him off the stage.

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 10:00:04 

In reply to black

Your aim is to please everyone!


That is the Bajan you call powen.

Aren't you the same fella who dedicated a whole thread to your dislike of me. Which I whole-heartedly embraced.

lol

 
sgtdjones 2018-12-10 10:01:49 

In reply to nick2020

And the audience has the right to boo him off the stage.


Isn't that wasteful energy.

My membership at this site is to learn, I can only do so if I see the other side.

If as you suggested is accomplished, then it defeats the purpose of posting.

lol

 
pelon 2018-12-10 10:04:18 

In reply to Norm

If you knew the origin, you wouldn't have started out with your usual asinine assumption


Norm, you are getting caught up on the wrong end of the stick.

The question posed by Black is valid, yet potentially applicable to other areas of man's mythology. That is the part you are defending.... the IMPLICATION.

All great minds have a common trait: questions
All weak minds have a common trait: rejecting new information


Of Ignorance:

It is every bit as fictional as the Big Bang Theory,


You go into the realm of IGNORANCE when you say the Big Bang Theory is fictional. It is neither FACT/FICTION/TRUTH/FALSE Norm .... it is a THEORY....

The scientific method holds NO Theory as TRUTH and importantly, no scientific fact is written in stone!!!!!!!
There is GREAT beauty in the FLEXIBILITY of science that holds itself up to new ideas, adaptation and modification....

Fact, Theory, Hypothesis and Law (Scientific Method) ARE not absolutes of truth - by design, if not it would not be science - it would be FAITH!!!!

 
sgtdjones 2018-12-10 10:05:51 

In reply to pelon

Nice. Well said

cool

 
Norm 2018-12-10 10:07:36 

In reply to sgtdjones

St. Nicholas

The usual eurocentric view of the world, snagged from some website?

The Yuletide, and all its associated traditions, existed long before St Nicholas, Jesus and European countries. The core traditions (tree, gifts, families and communities getting together to celebrate the achievements of the past year, the expression of hope for the new year, etc) have survived.

The European and Christian mumbo jumbo added much later were intended to hijack one of mankind's most enduring celebrations - the coming of the new year.

 
Norm 2018-12-10 10:21:17 

In reply to pelon

The question posed by Black is valid

Sure. It is as valid as, "Why is the question posed by Black so asinine?"

It is neither FACT/FICTION/TRUTH/FALSE Norm .... it is a THEORY...

I guess you missed my point about "theory" being a model that hopes to approximate reality, in discussions here a long time ago. I used the Bohr model of the atom to illustrate that point.

There are parallels in the social world too, including concepts such as "god", "Santa Claus", etc, which are essentially models of social ideals that we do not fully understand, and therefore cannot prove or even describe accurately.

Anyway, I am probably wasting my time.

I gone. I have a real day job to attend to.

 
Ayenmol 2018-12-10 10:24:31 

You are being chastised for your beliefs in a democracy,
interesting isn't it.


Do you guys even pretend to have an ounce of fairness?

Who started the thread denouncing what someone else believes?

It's laughable how you accuse others of doing thayt which you yourself are engaging in.

Either , again, you are ignorant or just stupid.

No other way to put it!

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 10:29:40 

In reply to pelon

Fact, Theory, Hypothesis and Law (Scientific Method) ARE not absolutes of truth - by design, if not it would not be science - it would be FAITH!!!!


You are not genuine in your analysis.

The audience still has to have faith that the scientific method works. Pelon, the reality of the situation is many of the scientific principles that the average man accepts said average man has to accept on the basis of faith because the audience cannot understand the science.

 
pelon 2018-12-10 10:36:30 

In reply to nick2020

The audience still has to have faith that the scientific method works.

NONSENSE.

They do not. That is the difference of the scientific method - it is publish to be refuted and held up to scrutiny. Not to be swallowed as FACT.

Plainly, I will tell you: Science is "accepted" by the masses because they lack a substantive alternative. When they DO have a substantial alternative (like Faith based creation) the offer objection. Great objection.

In the absence of objection something has a path to becoming accepted as "truth".



average man has to accept on the basis of faith because the audience cannot understand the science.

That is not the fault of science. That is a fault of the individual.

 
black 2018-12-10 10:38:29 

In reply to nick2020

Nonsense, the audience don't have to accept anything. Findings are presented based on studies conducted, not based on who likes it or not.

 
Ayenmol 2018-12-10 10:48:15 

In reply to pelon

Dude you keep speaking out of both sides of your mouth...

You contradict yourself with every post.

 
bravos 2018-12-10 10:48:56 

In reply to Ayenmol

Behold,for the wrath of Pelon cometh! shock

 
sgtdjones 2018-12-10 10:50:12 

In reply to Norm



The Yuletide, and all its associated traditions, existed long before St Nicholas, Jesus and European countries.


the topic is Santa Claus your long winded diatribe
adds nothing to the debate.

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 10:56:51 

In reply to pelon

Maybe as an intelligent academic you lack the capacity to understand what someone unable to comprehend has to accept.

They do not. That is the difference of the scientific method - it is publish to be refuted and held up to scrutiny. Not to be swallowed as FACT.


Something I had to go thru in college and take 3 different classes:

Fundamental theorem of calculus


Then, F is uniformly continuous on [a, b], differentiable on the open interval (a, b), and
F ′ ( x ) = f ( x ) {\displaystyle F'(x)=f(x)\,}

for all x in (a, b).


Explain that to black. Explain the importance of it to black. Tell me if he understands. Again you are absolutely missing the point.

They do not. That is the difference of the scientific method - it is publish to be refuted and held up to scrutiny. Not to be swallowed as FACT.


For who to scrutinize? Black? Or the big brained, elitist 1%ers who the general public still have to believe?

 
Ayenmol 2018-12-10 10:58:56 

In reply to sgtdjones

You want to argue about something without knowledge of it's origin?

Is Santa the only fictional character out there?

Is it the only one used by parents to control their kids?

Do you buy movies. Cartoons? Have you ever been to Disney? Taken your kids there?

 
sgtdjones 2018-12-10 11:04:18 

In reply to Ayenmol

Is Santa the only fictional character out there


I posted the story of the beginning of the Santa fabrication.

The gist of the thread is this fictional character nutting else.

 
Ayenmol 2018-12-10 11:07:27 

In reply to sgtdjones

Is there anyone who believes Santa claus is real?

What are you talking about?

Spiderman, Superman, Batman...All marvel heroes that are making millions...did you not contribute to those?

 
sgtdjones 2018-12-10 11:11:49 

In reply to nick2020

It takes decades to build the scientific equipment to test theoretical discoveries; to put this into context, Einstein’s theory of gravitational waves in space, which he first proposed in the 1920s, was only recently proven in 2016.

One of Hawking’s most important finds was “Hawkings Radiation,” the theory that black holes are not completely black after all, but emit radiations that ultimately cause them to disappear. The issue is, the technology needed to observe this radiation will take years and cost millions before Hawking’s theory can ever be verified.


Someday Hawkins theory can be as Einstein's or based on scientific evidence false. Science is constantly changing
as we discover more, plus theories are perpetually being scrutinized.

 
sgtdjones 2018-12-10 11:14:54 

In reply to Ayenmol

Spiderman, Superman, Batman...All marvel heroes that are making millions...did you not contribute to those?


I haven't seen such movies, nor had time for comic books.

What do such have to do with the gist of the thread?

 
Ayenmol 2018-12-10 11:15:13 

In reply to sgtdjones

Someday Hawkins theory can be as Einstein's or based on scientific evidence false. Science is constantly changing


So can the theory of Evolution, but you want to teach that as fact.

This whole thread is based on a dummies use of a Scientist opinion to claim that other people's belief are useless.

Like i said, talking out of both sides of your mouth.

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 11:15:36 

In reply to sgtdjones

The gist of the thread is this fictional character nutting else.


You need to go back to the initial post

Why would anyone make up a fictional character and feed it to kids and leave them to find out that he is not real, either by being ridiculed by friends for being naive or parents eventually coming clean by admitting to lying?


The gist of the thread is not about the what but the why.

Why would black spend all his time ridiculing religion and then go to a funeral service?
Why would black spend all his time watching TV and then go and ask cc.com the kind of questions you would expect from your 6 year old?

We will never know. lol

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 11:20:46 

In reply to sgtdjones

theories are perpetually being scrutinized.


To repeat what I said to pelon:

Scrutinized by who?

You have less than 1% of the population who put forward a hypothesis, design an experiment, reach a conclusion and finally have the other less than 1% peer review it.

You really feel the guy on Maury saying he is not the father of little Timmy understands the DNA test he just took? No. But he accepts on the basis of faith that it works. Not science. Pelon understands the science but not him.

 
pelon 2018-12-10 11:21:18 

In reply to nick2020


Why would black spend all his time watching TV and then go and ask cc.com the kind of questions you would expect from your 6 year old?
Beacuse he is wise enough to know that complex questions are never the first step.

"Why did that apple fall from the tree" asked a grown man.

Don't shit on the wisdom of basic questions. I have long applauded Blacks "inquiries" to the social experiment that is cc.com

Long.

 
pelon 2018-12-10 11:23:01 

In reply to nick2020

But he accepts on the basis of faith that it works.
No, he accepts it because he has no substantive evidence to the contrary. NOT FAITH.

 
Ayenmol 2018-12-10 11:23:41 

In reply to nick2020

They love to cry 'think of the kids', when it suits their argument, then literally not think of the kids when it actually matters!

Hypocrites. They want the masses to be tolerant of them, when they are at a disadvantage then as soon as they have the upper hand, or think they do they are as intollerant as those they replaced.

 
sgtdjones 2018-12-10 11:24:53 

In reply to nick2020

Why would black spend all his time ridiculing religion and then go to a funeral service?


He may not be religious but respecting the dead might be the answer. I go to funerals of various denominations owing to the respect of the deceased individual.

I went to one in French recently didn't understand a darn
word in a beautiful church.



lol

 
black 2018-12-10 11:30:26 

In reply to sgtdjones

This guy is a total idiot. He asked that question before and I basically told him the same thing, yet he keeps asking the same question.

 
Ayenmol 2018-12-10 11:30:29 

In reply to pelon

No, he accepts it because he has no substantive evidence to the contrary NOT FAITH


Men once thought the Earth was flat, that did not make it true.

It's all faith. You believe something that is unproven because you are exhibiting faith in the reasons behind the reasoning!

You seem to think Faith is only Religious based.

Faith is the assured expectation of things not beheld...the one exercising faith decides why that faith is warranteed.

You have no proof God does jot exist, and no proof there was a big bang...your faith in scienctist is what has you believing both!

 
pelon 2018-12-10 11:32:48 

In reply to Ayenmol


your faith in scienctist is what has you believing both
Please speak for yourself. I don't actually understand that sentence....

 
Ayenmol 2018-12-10 11:34:35 

In reply to pelon

Do you believe there was a big bang?

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 11:36:40 

In reply to pelon

No, he accepts it because he has no substantive evidence to the contrary. NOT FAITH.


Oh come on now pelon. That is preposterous.

Anyway, we will agree to disagree.

Don't shit on the wisdom of basic questions. I have long applauded Blacks "inquiries" to the social experiment that is cc.com


Now this is really preposterous. You mean like the time he asked why we should save stupid people? lol
Cmon pelon don't enable the guy.

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 11:38:56 

In reply to sgtdjones

By black's thinking the dead are worm food. The dead are not being respected by going to a service. Surely you mean the living?

 
pelon 2018-12-10 11:39:41 

In reply to nick2020


You mean like the time he asked why we should save stupid people?
lol lol lol lol lol
I don't recall that or the CONTEXT.... but most times Black DOES ask questions that REVEAL much about the egos on cc.com

I love that shit.

Questions that create dialogue.

 
black 2018-12-10 11:45:22 

In reply to nick2020


By black's thinking the dead are worm food. The dead are not being respected by going to a service. Surely you mean the living?


I've got news for you, you are going to become food for worm and so am I.

Everything gets recycled my friend.

That is not a statement of disrespect for the dead.

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 11:50:13 

In reply to pelon

No no no yes you do. You even chastised him for the post.

Why would anyone make up a fictional character and feed it to kids and leave them to find out that he is not real

We are better off discussing the futility known as West Indies cricket that this. Parents teach their children many things with a goal of imparting knowledge, morals and values. If there is one persistent ideology crammed down our throats from the day we are born until we die (and even after) is good behavior is rewarded and bad punished.

Santa sums that up no differently than yearly reviews in your job. What is next for debate, Cinderella?

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 11:51:39 

In reply to black

Everything gets recycled my friend.


Recycled? We coming back in another form?

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 11:53:22 

In reply to black

I've got news for you, you are going to become food for worm and so am I.


How do you know?

I know I don't. But my time is short so if I end up as worm food I will send you a PM. If you don't hear from me I am in Heaven. No internet in Heaven.

 
pelon 2018-12-10 11:56:29 

In reply to Ayenmol

Do you believe there was a big bang?

To be clear with you, you mean like outside on independence day?
If that is what you are asking, then YES I have heard a big bang many times and I believe it was both BIG and BANGish

Now, if you are asking about the scientific model of the big bang - much of which is still in hypothesis AND dispute - is NOT subject to ACCEPTANCE as "fact" - then NO... because it is a THEORY.

If you ask the avg man about the Big Bang, they would say: something about the SINGULAR origin of the universe. They would be wrong! The Big Bang is the expanse of energy, time, and space.... not an explosion. Importantly, it is NOT A FACT it is a THEORY.




[CLOSED]Religious teachings of creation ---------------- spectrum ----------------- Scientific Investigation of creation[OPEN]

You get to choose.

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 12:36:03 

In reply to pelon

Importantly, it is NOT A FACT it is a THEORY.


The average person does not understand that. And you cannot blame em as people represent it as such. Black included.

In reply to Ayenmol

In Science you have a hypothesis, followed by an experiment to gather data, analysis of the data, and finally a conclusion. The conclusion is if the hypothesis is supported or not.

Science does leave itself open for revision.

 
black 2018-12-10 14:55:42 

In reply to nick2020

In Science you have a hypothesis, followed by an experiment to gather data, analysis of the data, and finally a conclusion. The conclusion is if the hypothesis is supported or not. 

Science does leave itself open for revision.


Isn't that what pelon just spent his time explaining to you?

You are a fool!

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 15:42:57 

In reply to black

Surely you can read.
He explained it to Ayenmol/Batquake.

Stay off the juice and keep up black. lol

 
Ayenmol 2018-12-10 16:51:16 

In reply to nick2020

He explained it to Ayenmol/Batquake.


Apparently you are either a jerk or lack respect for people.

 
black 2018-12-10 17:11:02 

In reply to nick2020


He explained it to Ayenmol/Batquake


So you read it? lol

 
bravos 2018-12-10 19:21:06 

Mammals when yuh dead yuh done...that's it,you too arrogant to accept it...

 
Ayenmol 2018-12-10 19:26:15 

In reply to bravos


Definition of arrogant

1 : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner an arrogant official

2 : showing an offensive attitude of superiority : proceeding from or characterized by arrogance

 
black 2018-12-10 19:33:57 

In reply to Ayenmol

So that definition does not apply to you?

You don't think you're superior to others because you bought a ticket to heaven?

Even if you're delusional? lol

 
nick2020 2018-12-10 19:41:33 

In reply to Ayenmol

What was offensive to you?

 
pelon 2018-12-10 19:45:35 

In reply to Ayenmol

Lash them Ayenmol.... YOU GOT EM CORNERED!!!!

hypocrites, arrogant, selfish.... pepper them Brother Ayenmol. Wicked Heathens all... especially that insolent gargoyle pelon





Why father Jehovah does your disciple Brother Ayenmol call other men names? For it is said in James 2:10  For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Why has Ayenmol sinned you upon you so? REPENT

 
black 2018-12-10 19:58:06 

"I have sinned"

 
Ayenmol 2018-12-10 20:39:13 

rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes

 
Norm 2018-12-10 22:27:28 

In reply to Ayenmol, nick2020 and pelon

Good discussion, gentlemen. Much appreciated.

We often disagree, but the arguments could be enlightening and instructive.