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Until and unless West Indies Test and ODI returns to the basic template of what made Richards the greatest west indian captain of all time and go forward from there we will remain mired in international cricket doldrums for another 30 yrs.

Retro captains.
Lara was NEVER captain material and should NEVER have been made west indies captain. His selection as captain began the I in team era that has hopefully finally ended with Gale's pending departure.

In reply to BC

Well Richards inherited a world class team from Lloyd, Richards just put the controls in auto and things worked, a better Headline might be ' Richards was the luckiest Captain in WI History'.

In reply to BC

Firstly Lloyd was the greatest WI cappo ever. Even the stats say so. While Richards went 6 years without a series loss, he lost more test matches than Lloyd. The rut actually started in Richards time. The shameless nationalism like picking Hamish Anthony for the 91 England tour, keeping Brian Lara out of the side for two years, picking Winston Benjamin consistently over Tony Grey who was taller and quicker. That men like Hooper and Atherton never fulfilled their talent is not his fault and probably the hostile treatment he gave Lara made him into the champion batsman he became. I remember instances on the 91 tour of England where Viv was virtually Hooper's father but we know now that his reaction to Lara was completely different: throwing his kit bag out of the dressing room, forcing him to watch the rain(you're not being paid to sleep) not giving him a game on the England tour despite good scores in the tour matches. But as I said, it's probably instances like this that turned Lara into the best batsman of his generation. Meanwhile hooper finished with an avg under 40. So go ahead and blame Lara.

In reply to BC

What was Richards' template?

In reply to BC

In my opinion that honour goes to Sir
Frank Worrell , and I seriously doubt
that anyone can factually prove otherwise .

People seem to forget the freaking Fact that Worrell was the first Black
Cricketer who was appointed Captain of
the West Indies Cricket Team .

BTW there was also a big Debate regarding making Worrell the Captain
of the Team .

IT WAS HIS STEWARDSHIP THAT MADE IT

POSSIBLE FOR OTHER BLACK PERSONS TO

BECOME CAPTAINS OF THE WEST INDIES

CRICKET TEAMS .


I RECOMMEND YOU & OTHERS TO READ

CRICKET BOOKS ON THE WEST INDIES

TOUR TO AUSTRALIA 1960 - 1961 .

Since WE are in the age of Google ,
I recommend that you google what
the Australian News Papers had to say regarding the death of Sir Frank Worrell .

SIR FRANK WORRELL PAVED THE WAY FOR

SOBERS RT AL TO BECOME CAPTAINS OF

THE WEST INDIES TEAM . DO NOT EVER

FORGET THIS FREAKING FACT .

Now go away and Sin no More !!!!!

Richardson was the start of the fall-selfish ...Insubordinate and Churlish.. . TM Key and Peele

In reply to Barry

exactly.......Richardson was chosen bcuz he was a yes man and WICBC couldn't stand a third strong willed individual as cappo in Dessie. All lara's indiscretions and antics started after haynes last match in bridgetown 94. At that moment, he needed a mentor and someone to strong arm him when he got out of line. Haynes was supposed to be that guy. He was the last link from the packer years. Instead you had richardson, who tactically wasn't even a good captain. The 95 series, he was constantly out-thought by mark taylor, something that would not happen to clive, haynes and especially viv who was tactically the best of the lot. If he had bowled patterson instead of the ambrose walsh combination that the team decided, WI unbeaten run would have been 12 years instead of 15. Instead you had the TTCB campaigning for lara to be captain in 1995(utter madness) and lara reading the hype. As i said, when viv retired, you needed strong leadership which Ritchie was not. Especially as the WI had inherited another genius with genius talent and potentially destructive genius attitudes. And in the end they spoilt a very good batsman. Check how richardson's average fell when he became cappo

In reply to Jumpstart
I don't want to focus on Lara or Walsh . . . the climate of this team has never been good under Richards and Richardson ...

Richardson was the worst-he was petty and cultivated cliques . . . Some of his decisions were vikey-vye as in the 1996 world cup . . .
LISTEN . . . .
Link Text

His encouragement of homeland cliques (Benjamin and Keith) led to Kanhai being run out as coach ... Brian found that behaviour distasteful . . . but what can you do when the wicked hold power? ;;;

Gayle and Sarwan also behaved infamously . . .ran their coach out too. Sarwan followed more than he led though-fool. Yes, I agree that Haynes (and Marshall) were the stabilizing hands-Yes, I would have given Haynes-good man ...

I suggest that there was little leadership development ... After reviewing some instances, I am not sure of all of Lloyd's actions either .. . leadership development of the captian is the responsibility of the Board .... they must identify and develop captains ...

How could a man suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome be captain of anything?

In reply to Barry

THE UNDISPUTABLE FACT IS THAT FRANK

WORRELL PAVED THE WAY FOR OTHER

" BLACK PLAYERS " TO BECOME THE

CAPTAIN OF THE WEST INDIES TEAM .

THIS CANNOT EVER BE DISPUTED OR

DENIED BY ANY SANE CRICKET FAN .

In reply to Jumpstart

Interesting stories. I wasn’t aware of the early relationship between Viv and Brian was that bad.

I guess it had to be a case of insecurity on Viv’s part ( even great people can be insecure) as he must have seen the great potential of Lara, but wanted him to know his place.

Great players also know their potential, even at the start of their careers and Lara knowing himself and wanting to get on with it, must have been in the eyes of Viv, a little annoying pest.

But time has been good to both; no need to dwell on that past.

In reply to Casper

The decline of WI cricket started just after Lloyd left, there was no program installed to maintain the high standards of the good years, although the WI kept winning after Lloyd left, as soon as the players that Richards inherited started to leave WI cricket declined until now and there is nothing on the horizon to suggest it will get better soon.

I thought Ganga was the best captain of all times.

In reply to dayne

nah....i dont think so. WI cricket was still incredibly strong when lloyd left. Look winston davis could not consistently make the team. And look how many professionals were in england who could waltz in to any test team in the 80s and 90s except the WI. Off the field, the problem started with wicbc officials not planning for the future and going on expensive yacht trips with british royals. As a result the chain slowed in the late 80s. On the field, richards volatile temper and his obvious nationalism did nothing to foster team spirit.

Players respected Lloyd. They feared richards. Like for example, i can tell you that richards hated Larry Gomes. Even when they batted together, richards barely acknowledged when either of them reached their centuries. Similarly with lara. Richards had lara drive him all over England for the 91 tour, had him tying shoelaces and carrying kits to the bus from the hotel. That doesn't foster team spirit. Viv even boasted that he had thrown Lara's kit bag out of the dressing room to an Indian audience at a literature festival a few months before lara gave the MCC lecture. He said he felt that because lara was from a bigger island, that he felt he was better than him. What?

Richards even campaigned for Richardson to be appointed cappo in 91 despite haynes being his understudy and a man who the entire team loved and respected. I would go as far as saying richards captaincy sowed the seeds of the 95 disaster and what has followed
Link Text

In reply to Casper

Viv was that way with everyone-It is Richardson who was the problem- insipid

In reply to Jumpstart

Preach brother.
The truth!

In reply to Barry

there was a reason lol


Geniuses especially. Very few times do two enter the same space. Viv and Lara was one of the rare times it happened.
The destructive elements of Viv's genius manifested itself in bullying and general moments of unpleasantness and Lara's destructive genius qualities manifested itself in moodiness and a huge sense of entitlement which he only seemed to temper late in his career. Elements which i contend could have been weeded out under the hand of a wise, secure, mentor as captain.....which Desmond Haynes was to lara until his last test. Richie Richardson's captaincy had disastrous after effects. And as i said, viv has to be called out for upsetting the natural order in campaigning for Richardson as captain, as Richardson can't excuse collaborating with selectors to keep Dessie out of the side in favor of Stuart Williams. One was successful but both were disastrous

In reply to Jumpstart

Thanks brother - how do I say this politely- that is a whole lot of sh!t
The leadership and climate of the team was always insipid and toxic like this message board.
There were no indiscretions by Lara or Hooper (even when Hooper walked out)- these were only reactions to wickedness (victimization) in a defensive culture reeking with OECS discrimination. What Viv started, Richardson perpetuated and magnified ...

Let me school you a bit, brother please
Try to understand the effect of this toxicity ....
Think of political leaders like Bird and Burnham and you can come to grips with the fear and pain . . . I am suprised anyone can excel in such a climate . . .
Link Text


What advice if we could turn back time?
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Imagine the team meetings wven with Pastor West Hall to arbitrate ...
Imagine when Keith and the Benjamins collaborated .. .
Who could stand . . .
Shouldn't the Board have done something? Helped to reform the team climate?

In reply to Barry

I am curious of the Gayle/Sarwan story...any more information would help. What do you guys know about this Barry et al. Reason is I heard from the get go, Sarwan had such great leadership skills, and it was jut a matter of time until he became captain. Remember he spent a couple years under Lara as VC.
Thanks.

In reply to RonaldM

Sarwan had great leadership skills. I still can't figure out why hev was removed from the position after getting injured. But he had his best series under gayle and was vice cappo too. He and gayle were serious comrades. Great england series in 2009(home). I don't count the away series in England for the reason that it was arranged under the table behind everyone's back by hunte and hillaire. Which is why i wasn't angry with gayle for saying test cricket should die. They tore him away from the ipl.......in a series that up until the beginning of 2009 was not on the schedule. Remember these guys would have had their lives planned out over the year.

That year WI schedule was supposed to be Wisden trophy(march and april), WT20(August), Frank Worrell Trophy(December to January). Gayle and Sarwan were there and they were called back early. England needed practice before the ashes and arranged with the two clowns to arrange that series.

I still see the 2009 team as a huge missed opportunity. We had very good batsmen in gayle, sarwan, brendan nash, bravo and ramdin. Taylor and Fidel were firing whole year and were fit and motivated. Kemar and Rampaul were fantastic in Australia. We would have won the last two tests in Australia if it wasn't for Billy Bowden's awful umpiring. Even Wisden(who never take the WI side) was critical of his errors .And those two idiots decided to mash it up. WICB at its most idiotic

No evidence of contact from hotspot and Bowden upheld the decision. Shameful. If there was no evidence on hotspot then the decision should have been overturned as happens now. Roach was on 17 and we just needed 35 runs to win. Burns me to this day

In reply to Jumpstart

I love Gayle. The question is was he good for Sarwan- sometimes people get in your head- their interest is not yours....

In reply to POINT

Tell these "pups" about WI cricket history.
Captains do not have to dominate bat or ball to be good.

Headley was the best because he had the hardest job. His team had all and everything against them especially color. That he batted so beautifully and scored hundreds against the best showed LARA HAD HIS QUALITIES.
Worrell was class both on and off the field. He was captain to players of all colors.

THE MODERN DAY CAPTAINS HAD EVERYTHING GOING FOR THEM .
Lloyd was racist. Ask Kalli and Inshan as well as Nanan.
Lara was never given the chance to blossom. The WICB made sure of that. look at his teams which had stars but they never came out for him except Shiv and Sarwan .
Viv was also a racist and insular captain. He never liked Trinidadians and it showed. He hated us because we supported the indo teams more than his.
Richie like Lara let his bat talk.
Lara is not captain material and never was but in those days WI did not have a standout local to be put in charge. Neither did he have a balanced team. Gayle never showed up when he was captain but came to party after Lara was deposed.
Blaming Lara and Richie is weak.
Viv is no way by a long shot our best captain ever neither is Lloyd.

Headley
Worrell
Stollmeyer
Sobers
Kanhai
LLoyd
Viv

In reply to rillo

Dont bring Guyanese politics into your nonsense. Rangy had nothing but respect for Lloyd. He even said months before he died that he was happy to get as much matches as he did because of how successful the pace strategy was. Leave a Trinidadian hero out of your nonsense. I never heard Inshan say anything bad about lloyd either. Only person was Kallicharan which could have been because of the fractious nature of Guyanese politics, or the fact that he didn't go to WSC even after signing initially. Most people believe he craved the captaincy and their relationship was always fractious even after the sides were reintegrated in 79 for the CWC and the Australia tour. Every captain has his faults and maybe lloyd was influenced by domistic guyanese politics but you cannot dismiss him simply because your hero and him did not see eye to eye. Lloyd got the most disunited region to play as a unit.

Secondly, richie didn't let his bat do the talking. His avg dropped from over 50 to where it is now....in the the 44 region. He increasingly relied on a clique to maintain relevance and even conspired to keep Haynes out of the squad for the 95 series vs Australia in favor of Stuart Williams and we know how well that turned out. Had it not been for sober minded leadership from Haynes, WI unbeaten reign would have been ended by SA in 1992. The team had decided that Ambrose and Walsh would bowl out when SA needed 80 odd runs with 8 wickets remaining to win. When play started Richardson had patterson(who wasn't having a good game) warming up and had to be outvoted on the field.
Richardson's captaincy was so damaging to our cricket it's not funny. Tactically inept and manipulative

In reply to Jumpstart

sports journalists tuh...

Its a poor excuse for the entire west indies hierarchy to persist w holder as captain in any format after the 2019 pre world cup and world cup bc "there is nobody better". Tell that to Afganistan.

In reply to Jumpstart

Who was the spinners Lloyd picked over Nanan who was topping the wicket charts year in and out.
Inshan got a bat across his shoulder in Australia from Lloyd because he could not take Lloyd's bossiness.
it just came together for Loyd.
That is how history goes.
Lloyd could never duplicate what happened with his teams just like Braithwaite could never replicate his innings against England.
That is how history goes.

In reply to rillo

It's Keith Boyce who attacked Inshan Ali. Not Lloyd. And have you ever considered that all Trinidadians and many Jamaicans playing for the WI have been given more or less a raw deal, not just the indians? Lara took an eternity to hold down a spot and it certainly wasnt because he was not talented. Tony Grey as as fast as bishop but he never held down a spot thanks to Richards' tribalism and he ain't Indian either

In reply to rillo

I might be one of a handful of people on this MB who even saw Headley play. I certainly was one of those he coached. I think that beyond cricket George Headley was one of about 20 of the greatest Jamaicans, a man who was comfortable in his skin, a man who the emerging Jamaican nation looked up to as a leader.

But as far as the greatest West Indies captain is concerned I would have to join POINT and bestow that title on Frank Worrell.

Leadership of cricketers from various parts of the West Indies - which men like Lara found difficult - came easy to Worrell who like Headley was loved and respected universally and was a leader on and off the field.

//

In reply to Jumpstart

I am liking you- the way you didn’t take the LLOYD is racist troll (although he probably is- a common Guyanese flaw). Thank you for debating and thinking although I may not always agree with you...

In reply to Ewart

Worrell certainly set the template.......but Lloyd's side was the most successful. As I said earlier, for a region that is so disunited and tiny compared even to the NZ's of the cricketing universe, that is one hell of an achievement. And Lloyd was able to quell to tribalism by doing one thing: winning. Lloyd even changed the rooming arrangements so that no two persons from the same island were together to isolate themselves. It's kinda like Louis Armstrong and Miles Davis. One made the trumpet the premier jazz instrument and one completely revolutionized the way the instrument is played.

In reply to Jumpstart

Thank you.

In reply to rillo

If Lloyd was racist

Faoud Bacchus


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

In reply to Dukes

In reply to rillo

Holding said he is the best captain, as for Viv, he wanted the best players on his team, insularity was left at the door.
Holding in a tape that was posted a few day ago, explained why Lloyd when to the four prong attack.

In reply to POINT

Sir Frank was more a person standing for the rights of the under-privilege, who had the vision to be inclusive, and a father figure to many youngsters on his team..
I am yet to hear people commenting on his leadership, in comparison to players speaking about Clive and Viv.
I've questioned Conrad Hunte on Gary being made captain ahead of him, and his response was, Gary only played cricket, I've been involve in many causes around the globe.

In reply to openning

er.......no. How do you explain the presence of men like winston benjamin over guys like Tony Grey and the picking of lara for three consecutive series(on the bench) while men like keith atherton ghad virtually a free pass. There were passengers in Viv's time too. There were just enough great players to offset their effect or lack of contribution. Richardson continued in the same vein. Athurton only scored 2 hundreds, both in one year, 1992, four years after his debut and i cannot think of a more reckless cricketer. Remember that ugly swing at an allan donald yorker in the 92 barbados test? Winston benjamin played 21 tests while tony gray only played 5 and gray was quicker, taller and had a lower average. Most persons only remember Benjamin for his temper now whereas they see gray as unfortunate to not have played more

In reply to Ewart

I put Headley up there because of the state of WI cricket at that time. We were fledglings at the time and to go away and face those established teams must have been daunting.
Glad to read of someone of yesteryear and knows history.

In reply to Jumpstart

Yes u r correct. I ask forgiveness for that mistake.

In reply to openning

For the Caribbean people, insularity is left at the door only when winning . . . . Even here, each island tries to gain an upper hand . . . Believe in their own sense of superiority . . .

Quotes from Holding in No Holding Back

OECS make poor captains . . .

In reply to Barry

Can you name anyone whose career or life is flawless?
Lloyd and Richards brought their own experience, Knowledge and style to the captaincy.
They were both winners.

Plain & simple...deliver the meat and potatoes every time like Richards did as captain and you too one day can be Number 1 like Richards. DELIVER THE GOODS!!!! ie Winning is Everything. Holder is a Joker.Sammy is Superior.

In reply to Dukes
racism is hard to define as we find on this messageboard. Neither Burnham or his supporters think they are racists, but potatoes command their thoughts . . . . Justifying what you say or do does not mean you are not racists . . . .

In reply to openning

What style does Holder bring . . . I simply quoted Holding . . . If insulting people is captaincy, then fine . . . once you win, I guess . . . .

In reply to Barry

I stop commenting on a captain on-field responsible about 3 years ago.
I had a post about it, most posters know my feelings on this topic.

In reply to openning

So he brings nothing- nothing from nothing leaves nothing....

In reply to Jumpstart

Pardon the Pun , but You & Others keep
missing the freaking point . So let
me once again state this Freaking Fact.

IT WAS DUE TO WORRELL'S SUCCESSFUL

CAPTAINCY OF THE WEST INDIES

CRICKET TEAM MADE IT POSSIBLE

FOR A " BLACK" CRICKETER TO BE

CONSIDERED FOR THE POSITION OF BEING

THE CAPTAIN OF THE WEST INDIES TEAM.

Although he may not acknowledge it India's Dhoni as India's captain is a photocopied Richards protege in approach and confidence on the field. Dhoni's record for India for the last 20 yrs also speaks for itself as CAPTAIN.

In reply to BC

Dhoni is a thinker and treat his players better than Kohli does; although he is equally assertive. Dhoni is NOTHING like Viv . . .

Richards was extremely successful as captain of the West Indies team. He captained the team in 50 Tests and won 27 of them while lost only 8. He remains the only West Indies captain to never lose a Test series.
Quoted....luck? Chance? Lloyd as good as he was has inferior results w sim caliber players.
And no other windies captain comes close.

By Neto Baptiste

Former West Indies batsman and legendary captain, Sir Vivian Richards,

has questioned Jason Holder’s ability to motivate the players under his command as leader of the regional squad.

His comments come on the heels of the team’s exit from the ongoing ICC Cricket World Cup in England with their latest loss coming against New Zealand by five runs.

Sir Viv, who had never lost a Test series as captain, said Holder was not aggressive enough in his leadership.

“You look at a Virat Kohli and you know that those other 10 players are going to be behind him because he is leading from the front, he is showing intensity; but I do not quite see that with Jason and as a young captain I think he should be motivated enough to try and show that energy. The way you walk, the way you go to your bowlers and explain to them exactly what you want and show that sort of intensity, but there just wasn’t any of that,” he said. 

Holder’s lack of dynamism as captain has been a topic of debate in recent years but has since come under the microscope since the team’s dismal run at the World Cup.

The all-rounder has also been accused of not taking the bull by the horns at crucial times, often taking the ball less than his other bowlers.

Sir Viv also questioned why bowling all-rounder, Rahkeem Cornwall, had not been included in the World Cup squad.

“I believe Narine would have been perfect in such conditions but we didn’t have any of that and I guess the only individual that could have fit that bill — regardless of his fitness or not — would have been “Jimbo” Cornwall whom, I felt, in conditions like that with his height and the pace in which he delivers the ball, that he has some of the strongest fingers you could find,” the former player said.

“He would have been, in my opinion, quite suitable to just change up some of the patterns we saw at times with the bowling because it was too one-dimensional and I guess we suffered because of that as well,” he added.

West Indies will next play India on Thursday before meeting Sir Lanka on July 1st and will round off their campaign three days later against Afghanistan on July 4th.

In reply to BC

He had a great team that already were habitual winners. Jeff thomson once said that the only reason ponting won as many series as he did was because he inherited a successful side from Steve Waugh. And so it proved to be because after warne, mcgrath and gilchrist left with two seasons, australia lost quite badly.......barely beating the WI in 09/10, loosing to india, and the ashes in 2009. Same thing with Viv.....he had greenidge, haynes, dujon, marshall till the end.....and marshall only lost effectiveness in his last series in england in 91. And by 89 bishop, patterson and ambrose had been trained by marshall. Viv was fortunate he had a good team. I viv had taken the cappo job after the 75/76 humiliation, theoretically, i could guarantee you the WI would never have reached y=the heights they reached by 1984/85.......by far the WI best season......beating Australia 3-0 at home, 5-0 against england and 3-1 vs australia in the outback.

West Indies best captains were the ones that never were. Malcom Marshall and Michael Holding.The brains within the Viv Richards's reign.

In reply to BC

Malcolm was the brains behind and in front of Viv.

In reply to Raggs

I did not see your post, but we conclude the same.

In reply to Raggs

Holding couldn’t captain sh!t

In reply to Raggs

Actually......tactically, viv was the best of the lot. Even better than clive. Even better than Worrell. Viv's problem was that he was exceptionally autocratic and has even been called a bully by some former players in the team. Marshall should not have gotten the captaincy because that would have interrupted a clear lineage of training.....clyde trained Viv and Viv trained Desmond Haynes who was supposed to be cappo after viv retired. We know he was not picked and we know how badly the guy who did the job damaged the role and the team

In reply to Jumpstart

He is a bully