...but cyah develop a ton of other talents for 25 years +
cut this foolishness out...
unnu feel seh unnu sistem can produce cricketers...mek dat sistem develop Aljo, Harding, Chemar, et al...Hope, Hety, Pooran, et al
it is the biggest lie ...stop telling it to yourself...
Message Board Archives
WI 'Sistim' develop Jofra
In reply to doosra
Developed in the WI honed in England. Stop hating yourself so much.
In reply to doosra
Like I said on another thread; lets start by getting Thomas , Cornwall and a host of others to international fitness standards....
In reply to doosra
To me the ultimate failure of our system is the selection of Cornwall, an obviously overweight and out of shape player.
But what is your definition of develop? I ask because Archer played all of his cricket in the Caribbean until U19. Are you referring to develop in the sense of a finishing school or fine-tuning?
In reply to Larr Pullo
explain what developed in the west indies mean?
keep fooling yourself while you struggle to develop an world class test cricketer since when
Developed in the WI honed in England.
isnt it funny how we hearing bout developed and honed?
no amount of pedantry will change the fact
In reply to Walco
my definition is 'show me all those u19s you developed' to intl class
let's not get tangled with a few words and definitions
have we developed/honed/shaped/ whatever it is...cricketers of intl class in the last 25 years? barely a few
the same system that cannot produce intl class cricketers at any rate is now hailed as the one that has developed Archer
help me with the contradiction
In reply to doosra
Would you use the terms to describe Chris Jordan?
The Chris Jordan who supposedly invited Archer to come and drink from the waters of the Themes, only to be displaced in the England cricket hierarchy by the said invitee.
In reply to doosra
You do realize that development is a process that takes many years right? You not making sense on this one. Give it a rest! Dude learnt all his cricket in the Caribbean and had Chris Jordan as a mentor to open doors for him. He was super talented and put in the work, England provided the opportunity. The rest is history.
a question was asked the other day about how many wi batsmen avg 40 in fc cricket
did we come up with any?
what is this development rubbish am i hearing?
In reply to doosra
Changing pitches in mid match? What does that have to do with Archer's otherwordly talent?
In reply to doosra
It already has. Send them to England now and see what happens.
In reply to Larr Pullo
Not true. Development never stops. It can be considered a continuum. Cricket West Indies is only responsible for part of this development.
School dem Doosie.
In reply to Larr Pullo
He must be trolling.
In reply to Larr Pullo
I am not seeing any signs of this development of which we boast
i have not seen it for 25 years or so...
have you noticed you contradicted yourself?
In reply to doosra
Very observant...school 'm Doosie.
In reply to natty_forever
Gotta be..
It's not like this isn't covered ground. How did we develop the champion teams of the 70's and 80's? There's no shortage of talent in the WI, it's just that Archer is a talent along the lines of a Usain Bolt, or a Viv or a Holding.
In reply to Larr Pullo
it is a simple argument...i am using the system to make the case that what you claim is not so
the system has failed you for over 25 years...now you want to claim and over worldly talent
again you contradict yourself...
if he is an overworldly talent then his development would happen regardless...
so help me again...is he a mad talent or was he 'developed' by the system?
In reply to doosra
Where was England when Archer was a spinner, or when he was practicing bowling in the graveyard in Barbados? All that period of his 'development' was what? England pick a "full" fruit and let it ripen so they could eat.
In reply to doosra
Btw, no skill is fully developed. I repeat, NO SKILL IS FULLY DEVELOPED.
In reply to Larr Pullo
Larr, we are not talking about talent
show me how the system has 'developed' all those seriously crazy u19 cricketers we have had over the last 25 years
In reply to Larr Pullo
Mate, development is a continuum. There is no end point. There are various stages of development and one may be satisfied with a stage reached in his/her development. In simple terms, development is going further than what we have.
Archer is still developing as a bowler and unless he quits that development does not stop.
In reply to doosra
You only seeing a contradiction because you don't realise the distance between 'talent' and turning that talent into a standout professional career. Somewhere in there is 'development' and honing of skills followed by international stardom. Our under 19 team with Hety and them was talented, but as you can see with Hety (for example), that talent is not being 'honed' hence why international stardom is escaping him.
In reply to doosra
What's your starting point?
In reply to Courtesy
So if we were to graph his development it would always be going up right?
Jofra Archer was developed to a point by West Indies. The English system developed him further along.
This same West Indies cricket structure unless it is overhauled is insufficient to develop a cricketer to international standards.
Remain in denial and we will continue to churn out sub standard cricketers.
In reply to Larr Pullo
my frame of reference is the entirety of the FC system...u19 is mainly about talent...we have noted how many talented cricketers from u19 who never made it higher...because that was their peak or they just didn't have anything around them to take them further...this is the classic wi case
if the system is not producing first class cricketers then we cannot claim that the system is developing players...
i use that frame because we are talking about intl class cricketers...
In reply to Larr Pullo
No there are factors that can halt development or make it static.
In reply to Courtesy
i was typing my above post when u made this post...
it is that simple and that is my frame of reference....
In reply to Courtesy
There fixed that for you. You should resist the childish urge to always want to be right. It inhibits learning.
In reply to Courtesy
simple
and that is the reason why for over 25 years we have not been producing at any rate intl class cricketers...one and far
In reply to doosra
if the system is not producing first class cricketers then we cannot claim that the system is developing players...
i use that frame because we are talking about intl class cricketers...
You have got this right again. Our system develops players to a point...it does not take them to international standard and it is not currently structured to do this.
That denial is what is preventing us from doing the needful to reach international standards.
In reply to Larr Pullo
Now all that is left is for you to study your amendment above carefully and you may see the folly of your argument.
In reply to doosra
it is that simple and that is my frame of reference....
I don't think that anyone would argue that the WI are incapable of preparing players for international competition. However, your statement made it sound like they had NOTHING to do with his development and that is flat out wrong.
In reply to Larr Pullo
Tangential at best.
Your words:
Development is simply, going further with what we have.
In reply to Larr Pullo
but Larr, are we?
by and large the answer would be an emphatic, NO
and that is my core point...the rest we can decide on the semantics of it
no, that is your selective interpretation of it...
i appreciate, over and again, and have said it year after year,...pound for pound we used to produce the best u19 cricketers in the world...that level has been overtaken by the Indias and so on of the u19 world...
we are even losing some ground at the u19 level now...this year we didnt even have a 3day u19 tournament...have you noticed?
In reply to Courtesy
I forgot that our development structure is perfectly designed to produce international T20 players. They don't have to be fit and must love to swipe.
In reply to Courtesy
in its entirety....Larr knows that he is reaching ...
In reply to doosra
Isn't that due to the T20 that y'all so love? Players following the money without realizing that they ALL can't be T20 players, but that's not stopping them from trying...
In reply to Larr Pullo
In your thread yesterday you opined "test cricket is not dead."
Isn't test cricket the standard bearer?
So we are not producing players of international test standard but we are doing fairly well with the less demanding KFC with requires less skills over a shorter period of time. It's as simple as that.
CWI needs to move beyond this sub international preparation of players.
In reply to Courtesy
As a former WI Coach once said, and I paraphrase, "Making Brian Lara hit a hundred more balls is not going to make him a better batsman." That may be because Lara was FULLY PREPARED for the demands of International cricket.
In reply to doosra
We have all known that our cricketers compete up to U19 level (gospel) and tail off after this. If Larr is smart he would ask WHY?
In reply to Courtesy
I think we all kinda saying the same thing. You're just being pedantic as usual...I done play.
In reply to Larr Pullo
keep me away from that thing ok
In reply to Larr Pullo
You have every reason to so do. Have a great day.
Btw, development of any skill never ends. We can always go higher.
I wonder if we had stopped developing after we invented cooking one and a half million years ago, what would become of us?
In reply to Larr Pullo
that was a fast one
it was a Jofra
In reply to doosra
Switching continents again...much to do...
In reply to Larr Pullo
The English County system. Remember?
Now that system is only available to West Indians from certain regions. Chesney Hughes, Chris Jordan, and now Archer, have been able to take advantage.
The glory days WI cricketers went tru this same process...in the English county circuit in a professional environment.
Before glory days...Kanhai, Sobers, Gibbs come to mind
IPL did the same for our T20 cricketers which resulted in 2 T20 World Cups
In reply to Larr Pullo
Tell him.
In reply to doosra
i was typing my above post when u made this post...
it is that simple and that is my frame of reference....
however, that's not what you started out saying. That's what we been telling you.
In reply to Narper
In a nutshell
In reply to Drapsey
So, why are we not trying to replicate the "County System" here?
It compliments our players as Archer is proving, and the greats of the pass also.
In reply to Larr Pullo
Made my first post and just got back from the gym to read this runaway thread. Was thinking thinking that you guys are saying the same thing with minor differences ...
I'm hearing that nuff people in Barbados asking questions and pointing fingers about Archer. Even the Prime Minister can't believe that this one was let go by Bim and CWI. I say let go because apparently England inquired about Archer years ago and asked if he was in CWI's future plans and CWI responded no.
In reply to Narper
back then our guys went to England as accomplished players, give me an example of a no name that went and came back big?
In reply to natty_forever
It compliments our players as Archer is proving, and the greats of the pass also.
The the Caribbean does not have the economy to support such a system. Not even close.
Geography and multi-nationality are other impediments.
I'm not saying that it is impossible to produce great cricketers/teams, we're just faced with larger challenges than our competitors.
In reply to camos
The players at that time represented the West Indies.
The English and Aussies saw this. They contracted them
to play in their leagues.The league standards improved. The players admitted playing 5 days of cricket helped in their development. Different types of wickets and weather conditions, they had to adapt to survive.They got help by coaches that made them improve to play in any condition.Playing in Perth and Lords one must adapt quickly.
In the Caribbean we dont have such to take them to the next level. Have we not seen such over the last two decades, we are doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.
Sure, it has lead us to being bottom feeders now.
The only thing that remained intact over the last two years have been a feeble Board of Directors, reminds me of the Dodo bird. ( its now extinct)
In reply to Drapsey
... and I have no confidence that the present Administration or Past has a clue. We Yaadies have a saying: "Where there is a will, there is a way!".
In reply to camos
that's back then blood, what we plan to do today, as this not working. Today more than ever we need the County System.
In reply to natty_forever
salaries have moved up a bit but infrastructure spending is very inadequate; grounds preparation, youth coaching etc.
In reply to camos
Salaries should have remained until we had the rest in place it seems.
In reply to natty_forever
Some teams in the English leagues are losing money or just breaking even. We have been paying 120 players a monthly sum to keep the WIPA President in Office. Use
such to send U19 to UK.
The coach should mention to his batsmen, dont come back unless (in a game) you have faced 50 balls in T20.
In ODI's ...100 balls
Test 100 balls.
The above should be the minimum that is expected of the batsmen.
How many of our Bowlers can bowl 40 overs in a match without being rushed to the hospital after bowling 6 of them?
In reply to natty_forever
back then the economies of the region were based on sugar production, the estates all had grounds that could be called first class, no industry has stepped up to replace sugar with a similar level of commitment .
In reply to camos
Yaad was bauxite also. At one time our exchange rate was $1JAD=$2USD. Started to slide in the mid-70s.
I tho believe in the "once there is a will..."
Oh the irony!!!
The only good ting we 'sistim' developed in the past 25 years does not belong to us ....
In reply to natty_forever
yeah! but it was sugar with its large British ownership (Tate & Lyle) that was into cricket.
In reply to Kay
we were always an export based economy!
In reply to Walco
And has there been a noticeable improvement in Oshanes fitness since he first came on the scene?
So in addition to the failure of the system, we must also look at the willingness of and ability of the individual to improve. Would Archer have improved at the same rate if he knew that he would be able to walk into the England squad with little competition? Would the coaches invest time and effort if they thought he was not open to improving?
In reply to JOJO
Yes there has.
In reply to JOJO
Just imagine Oshane going through his routine in the shade of his backyard ackee tree. Shade from the surrounding 96 degrees.
Compare that to Archer's daily regimen in the temperature controlled confines of his club's (private) gym.
In reply to Drapsey
so cricket is played in a temperature controlled environment?
In reply to Drapsey
little castries would know about 96 degrees
In reply to sudden
st.lucian banana picker...bravos aint gps yuh skunt yet eh...soon come
to say that Eng developed Archer is like saying that America developed che
In reply to JOJO
Truth be told, I am disappointed with Oshanes loss of pace after his first spell. But I am really disappointed that Andre Russell was allowed to play in the World Cup without having to prove its fitness prior to selection. He needed knee surgery when he was selected ... System failures all over the place
In reply to Walco
Suh you visit Bestbuy as yet? Test match starting tomorrow .....
Jofra got a chance and had the focus,determination and discipline to realize his potential, I suspect the non selection hassomething to do with his drive.He might have been selected for the U19 and then become another indifferent,mismanaged and eventually discarded player. Let the man live his dream and enjoy, no traitor in my eyes.
In reply to jacksparrow
We all should thank WI cricket for not picking up Jofra. They would have spoiled a good talent, and we all would have been deprived of seeing a world class speedster.
Now that was one thing good that the WICB did.
Thank you WICB!!!
In reply to sudden
No, but a cricket match lasts from a few hours per day through (potentially) 5 days, depending on the format.
The fitness program is continual.
In reply to Kay
Thanks for the reminder
Again its only one test match but the young man was exciting to watch.
The other dynamic that is not being considered and perhaps have a greater impact on individual success is a players attitude. The West Indian cricketer in the WI is a different person in terms of attitude, in another environment. In one environment he is not open to being coached, thinks he has arrived and no one can tell him anything. Migrate him to the white man country and now he figures he has to compete and his attitude changes. Now he is coach-able, more receptive to instruction so he falls in line. Perhaps the system has a lot to do with the change in attitude but there is difference in how they respond. A WI cricketer trust very few people outside his immediate circle and has great difficulty respecting anyone outside this circle regardless. That's the same reason why management will always gravitate to a foreign coach cuz the the players don't respect their own.
Just a thought, not saying this is the case for Archer.
In reply to carl0002
Yes #2, as exciting as they come.
I'll take this opportunity to claim success in advising young Archer.
When he just emerged to prominence, he used to talk a lot, as is consistent with his Bajan heritage.
I posted it right here that he should shut the $%$%# up and just play cricket. Good on the young man, he listened.
In reply to jacksparrow
This is my point. Besides, he knows he has to perform...and continue to perform, if he wants to play for England. Many of our players performed below par during the WC, but knew that they would be selected to play against India.
Bravo knows that he simply has to put up one or two decent scores n the regional competition (or even the CPL) and he will be right back in the team.
In reply to Courtesy
This is a pointless argument...his record is public ....he came to England and struggled in club cricket....he got support from Sussex and eventually made his first class debut in 2016 for Sussex.
Anybody arguing he was developed in Barbados is saying a lot about what Wes Indians think is a development.
This article ( by George Dobell and published this year ) says a lot about what a determined young man he is...
Jofra Archer has, at times, been forced to take the scenic route to international cricket.
Not so long ago, he was reduced to sleeping on a friend's floor as his pursuit of a career in the game was threatened by a series of back injuries. Struggling to make a dent even in club cricket - his team wanted him to bowl them to league success; he could provide only a few overs before the pain became too great - he found himself representing what might best be described as a pub team with team-mates who, let's put this delicately, probably wouldn't challenge him in the bleep test.
Jon Filby, now chairman of the Sussex Cricket Foundation, takes up the story.
"I formed a team in 1985 with my good friend Gavin Bailey," he says. "We're called the Two Hopes who, as everyone knows, are 'Bob' and 'No'. It's social cricket, really, and every couple of years we arrange a tour of the west country. By 2015, I was 55 years old and, while there were some younger guys in the side - some good cricketers - we had no great pretensions.
"Anyway, when the fixtures came through for our tour that year we had a bit of a shock. We had been scheduled to play against some pretty strong county league sides and feared a bit of a mismatch. So my son, Tom, asked a team-mate of his from Slinfold Cricket Club - the Bajan allrounder Akeem Jordan - whether he would like to come along and strengthen us. He said yes, but could he bring his friend, Jofra. 'Great,' we said. There was no payment, or anything like that, but we said they could stay with us.
"The first thing that struck us all about Jofra was his manners. We had hired a big house in West Looe and there were about 20 of us staying there. Anyway, every morning my partner and I would cook breakfast for everyone. Jofra helped out with both the cooking and the washing-up and immediately struck up a good rapport with everyone."
Jofra Archer (front row, middle) poses with his Two Hopes CC team-mates Jon Filby
Archer had come to England in 2014. Chris Jordan, who he had met in the nets in Barbados, had suggested to Archer that he should try to use his UK passport (his dad, Frank, had been a driver on the London Underground for many years before retiring to Liverpool) and encouraged him to come to Sussex. But while the club monitored his progress, there was no contract and very little income.
In those first couple of years, he played for Middleton-on-Sea in the Sussex Cricket League. He was clearly talented, but the back injuries were persistent - as they often are in young, fast bowlers - and there were times he couldn't bowl. In one game, Archer reduced Cuckfield to 8 for 5, taking all five wickets, but then couldn't bowl any more. Cuckfield recovered to go on and win and, while Archer was popular, there was just a little frustration about his inability to deliver the overs his side wanted.
So he found himself at a loose end and was able to join Akeem and the rest of the Two Hopes in Cornwall. With Filby deciding it probably wouldn't be in the spirit of things to unleash two Barbadian fast bowlers on their unsuspecting opposition, it was instead decided they would bat at No. 6 and No. 7 "if required".
They were required rather sooner than might have been expected. Their opponents that day, Lanhydrock CC, soon reduced them to 26 for 4 when Archer strode out to join Filby. It soon became apparent that, however quick Archer was between the wickets, there weren't going to be many threes run.
"I have lovely memories of batting with him," Filby says. "I think we only put on about 25 but, what I really remember is, when I was out, he put his arm round my shoulder and walked me most of the way back to the pavilion. The funny thing is, just over a year later, I saw him do exactly the same thing on Championship debut after he had added 160 for the seventh wicket with CJ [Chris Jordan]. On that occasion, Jofra was out and he and CJ walked most of the way back to the pavilion commiserating with one another."
Filby's dismissal brought Jordan and Archer together. And together was where they stayed for the next couple of hours, both registering centuries and adding 180 together in increasingly fluent fashion.
"It's a beautiful place to play cricket," Filby says, "with the pitch in the grounds of a National Trust property. There was a large metal fence at one end of the ground which protects cars visiting the property from cricket balls. But in the later stages of the innings, both of them started to challenge each other to see how many balls they could hit over it. Quite a crowd developed. It was obvious we were watching something a bit special."
Neither man bowled when Lanhydrock batted, but Archer kept wicket and, in Filby's words "did it beautifully". The Two Hopes won by ten runs.
"I was a bit worried Lanhydrock might feel we had duped them," he says. "Some clubs might not have liked us turning up with these two young guys who were clearly a class above. But they put on a BBQ for us in the evening and were perfect hosts. Jofra and Akeem impressed everyone with their cricket and their friendliness."
At that time, Jordan was the more successful cricketer. He played as an overseas cricketer for several years in Sussex and Archer, until weeks before his breakthrough in first-class cricket, was sleeping on his floor. Filby noticed that Archer, in particular, had no money to spend and ensured his plate was always full at breakfast and tea. "I used to wonder when else he ate," he says now. "He had things really tough for a while. It's lovely to see things work out for him."
Roles are reversed now. Archer is already established as something of a superstar in T20 cricket and would appear to be on the brink of an exciting international career. Really, his future looks golden. Jordan, meanwhile, recently broke into the Combined Campuses and Colleges side in Caribbean regional cricket - he claimed a five-wicket haul in the semi-final of the Super 50 Cup before his side completed a shock by defeating Guyana in the final - but a first-class debut remains elusive. Even after Archer made his own Sussex debut, however, he could be seen going to watch Slinfold CC play to support his old friend.
Jofra Archer receives his cap from Jon Filby Jon Filby
It is remarkable the role chance has played in Archer's success, though. Not only was he fortunate to be able to utilise the UK passport he inherited from his father, he was also thankful for something of a fixture disaster which saw him handed a first-class debut that might, possibly, not have happened otherwise.
Sussex, you see, were involved in a T20 match in Cardiff on July 7, 2016. There's nothing unusual in that, you might think. But that game finished at around 10pm and, 13 hours later, they were due to play Pakistan in a first-class match at Hove. Only three men from that T20 side were included in the tour game and Archer, who had by then played a bit for Sussex 2nd XI but was still without a contract, was given his chance. He claimed two wickets in his first spell - Mohammad Hafeez and Shan Masood - and later added Misbah-ul-Haq and Azhar Ali. Within days, he had signed his first county contract, and the rest is history.
But let's get back to Cornwall. The day after the Lanhydrock game, the Two Hopes took on Falmouth. But there was to be no repetition of Archer's success. Instead he was dismissed second ball but, rather than moping about his failure, he did what every could club man does: he took stints as both scorer and umpire. He remains good friends with many of those with whom he played on the tour and not so long ago turned out to support a Sussex Cricket Foundation event.
"He hasn't changed at all," Filby says. "He's as humble and modest as ever; the most unassuming superstar you could hope to meet."
So any chance of a recall for the Two Hopes? "He'd be very welcome," Filby smiles. "But we think he might have bigger fish to fry these days
In reply to runout
In reply to runout
We all should thank WI cricket for not picking up Jofra. They would have spoiled a good talent, and we all would have been deprived of seeing a world class speedster.
Now that was one thing good that the WICB did.
Archer is not going anywhere. He is just switching his effed up Windies fans for the Barmy Army.
There were more fans glued to the Tele watching Archer compared to the Windies/ India game?
Suck it up and enjoy the ride with the English barmy army.
In reply to TheTrail
u best post
J Arch is block buster box office
What distinguishes Jofra from the others is his attitude. He has this perpetual look of someone thoroughly enjoying themselves, doing what they do, and how they do it. He doesn't disrespect the opposition. He doesn't blame his mates. He doesn't show anger and frustration. When things go wrong, he smiles. When things go right, he smiles. Keep smiling Jofra...the world smiles right back at you. He is simply in his zone. This is a true lesson for everyone: this is how you live and play.
For those who called him names, those who think of him as a traitor or otherwise. You have wasted invaluable time and effort heaping scorn on Jofra. He doesn't deserve any of that.
Jofra is a lesson in life!
Search
Live Scores
- no matches