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Is Shiv Chanderpaul Guyana’s best ever batsman?

 
shivnotout 2020-04-05 10:34:03 

It is always a difficult task when comparing sportsmen across generations to determine who is the GOAT – The Greatest Of All Time.

But it is always an interesting discourse to have. In this instance, I beg to ask the question: who is Guyana’s greatest batting phoenix to date?

 
shivnotout 2020-04-05 10:34:40 

link

 
shivnotout 2020-04-05 10:39:03 


To begin with, the achievements of Shivnarine Chanderpaul – the man from Unity Village – cannot be ignored. He stands atop Mount Roraima as far as this debate is concerned.
lol

 
Halliwell 2020-04-05 10:53:06 

In reply to shivnotout

What is greatest?
Career runs, career average, impact, legacy?

I can’t look beyond Lloyd and Kanhai

 
shivnotout 2020-04-05 11:12:52 

In reply to Halliwell

could be the batman with best batting stance? lol

 
Seechy 2020-04-05 11:33:00 

In reply to shivnotout

Definitely the Shivmeister. Without a doubt. Incomparable.

 
Halliwell 2020-04-05 12:11:36 

In reply to shivnotout

Clayton lambert then smile
Lefty ready to pull everything

 
Dukes 2020-04-05 13:31:56 

In reply to shivnotout

Which Guyanese batsmen did you consider, which of them have you seen and how did you come to the conclusion that you came to?

 
ray 2020-04-05 13:45:05 

I would rate Kanhai, Freddo, Kalli above Shiv...even Sarwan was better in my book...

 
dayne 2020-04-05 16:15:41 

Maybe it could be verified, but Chanderpaul might have the distinction of being the player who while being included in the WI team experienced the most losses. However he was a good accumulator of runs, but some the other players, like Lloyd and Kanhai could be rated as better, as it takes more skill to make a lot of runs quickly.

 
Khaga 2020-04-05 19:40:31 

In reply to ray

Add Hety too.. big grin

 
WestDem 2020-04-05 23:37:13 

In reply to Khaga

lol

 
WestDem 2020-04-05 23:37:58 

Shiv and Hooper for me the others are just joke! lol

 
BeatDball 2020-04-05 23:50:02 

RRS could have been! Shiv most prolific; RBK & CLH most elegant.
cool

 
Dukes 2020-04-06 00:01:15 

LISSEN MIH

ROHAN KANHAI

NOW ALLYUH STFU

 
dax 2020-04-06 00:41:46 

In reply to shivnotout

Rohan Kanhai!

 
Norm 2020-04-06 01:33:55 

Shiv (30 Test centuries) is the greatest Guyanese batsman ever. Twice as good as the next in line (Lloyd (16) or Kanhai (15).

 
jcveletta 2020-04-06 02:06:07 

In reply to shivnotout

Yes, by a distance.

 
openning 2020-04-06 02:32:26 

In reply to Dukes
Most of the Shiv supporters are basing their choice on stats.

It is a total insult to compare the two.
Rohan can still fill any ground in the region, unlike Shiv.

 
Norm 2020-04-06 02:39:15 

Most of the Shiv supporters are basing their choice on stats.
... Rohan can still fill any ground in the region, unlike Shiv.

So, you choose your stats, and others theirs. If Kanhai was less prone to cramps than Shiv, he to might have scored 30 centuries, and would have surpassed Sobers's 29.

 
Dukes 2020-04-06 02:43:18 

In reply to Norm

Would you take up the challenge to debate Shiv vs Rohan with me?

 
openning 2020-04-06 02:47:17 

In reply to Norm

Shiv is no different to Scottie Pippen, when comparing MJ and RK to the two.

 
Norm 2020-04-06 03:52:32 

In reply to Dukes

Would you take up the challenge to debate Shiv vs Rohan with me?

Set the agenda and ground rules. My debates tend to be a sentence or two long.

 
anandgb 2020-04-06 03:55:27 

In reply to shivnotout

Rhanan Kanhai is the best batsman Guyana ever produced followedf by Kalli, Roy Federicks and Lloyd

 
Norm 2020-04-06 03:57:12 

In reply to openning

Shiv is no different to Scottie Pippen, when comparing MJ and RK to the two.

I am no different from Shiv, Scottie Pippen, MJ and RK.

 
openning 2020-04-06 04:10:57 

In reply to Norm
I first saw Rohan when I was about 13 years.
People were arguing , who was the best batsman, The Greatest and him.
Next time I saw him, he was stopping traffic in Bridgetown, that how great this man was, on and off the cricket field.
Shiv has accumulated a number of runs, to join the great West Indies batsman, but it is an insult to compare him, to one of the greatest the region has produce.

 
Norm 2020-04-06 09:38:05 

In reply to openning

It was an insult to Shiv, alright.

 
solidrock 2020-04-06 12:25:07 

The write up in Guyana news gives a strong argument.

But, just as I see Yagga as very top-notch in the echelon of WI batsmen who does not have the numbers, who can argue against Tiger who does have real numbers, especially against other Guyanese batsmen.

 
Dukes 2020-04-06 13:01:37 

In reply to Norm

My debates tend to be a sentence or two long.


That would be very superficial.One needs to clearly lay out points with supporting evidence, opinions and contextual situations.Specific examples of incidences and anecdotes.
It is impossible to capture all that in a sentence or two.

 
BeatDball 2020-04-06 13:04:34 

In reply to Dukes Wow! You're a badjohn...are you a liar (lawyer)?!

big grin

 
camos 2020-04-06 14:32:03 

Is Shiv Chanderpaul Guyana’s best ever batsman?
Maybe! but the best Guyanese batsman to play for WI was Kanhai.

 
Norm 2020-04-06 14:36:30 

In reply to Dukes

One needs to clearly lay out points with supporting evidence, opinions and contextual situations.

Well, let's see. Any ground rules, or will this be a bar room brawl? As challenger, you get to "clearly lay out your points", etc - first.

 
Dukes 2020-04-06 14:48:22 

In reply to Norm

I can promise you a civil discussion which is honest, filled with FACTS but also including subjective things.Sport is visual and when one can see something it has a greater impact than merely reading about it.I will start a new thread later today and rest assured there will be much to discuss.

 
jacksparrow 2020-04-06 14:59:03 

According to the numbers, he is, and any other opinion is subjective, biased and twisted
cool

 
Norm 2020-04-06 15:02:31 

In reply to Dukes

I can promise you a civil discussion which is honest, filled with FACTS but also including subjective things.

A QC-style debate then. A pointless English style effort to show eloquence by talking like an Englishman and quoting others. Not my style, but I will indulge you - because you make good conversation and discussion. So, plug away!

 
openning 2020-04-06 16:41:04 

In reply to Norm

Shiv (30 Test centuries) is the greatest Guyanese batsman ever. Twice as good as the next in line (Lloyd (16) or Kanhai (15).


Saying you base your conclusion on stats, would you say Courtney Walsh is/was the best fast bowler.

 
Maispwi 2020-04-06 17:16:20 

This is interesting. Lets add some more numbers to the mix.

Shiv played slightly more than twice as many tests as Kanhai and also batted just over twice as many innings.

Shiv scored a hundred every 9.3 innings
Kanhai scored a hundred every 9.1 innings

Shiv's conversion rate for 50's to hundreds is 31% compared with 35% for Kanhai

 
Kay 2020-04-06 17:18:52 

In reply to jacksparrow

According to the numbers, he is, and any other opinion is subjective, biased and twisted

It is also based on the age of those who are actually bragging of having seen Kanhai bat.They say something about first impressions ….smile

 
Norm 2020-04-06 17:31:31 

In reply to openning

Saying you base your conclusion on stats, would you say Courtney Walsh is/was the best fast bowler.

Depends on what you are discussing.

Most wickets? Yes.
Most ducks? Yes.
Most runs? No.
Most economical? No.
Fastest? No.
Biggest swinger? No.

The phrase "best fast bowler" is very vague. Thus, both "yes" and "no" are correct responses. A question about if C Walsh was a big swinger of the ball, for example, is subjective, since swing is not measured and records cannot be compiled.

In other words, the only questions about cricketers that have unique correct answers are the ones based on stats. All other questions, such as "Is Courtney Walsh the best fast bowler?" could be answered correctly with either "yes" or "no".

The same goes for the Shiv question. As presented, both "yes" and "no" are correct answers.

 
BeatDball 2020-04-06 19:30:57 

I, now, have it! Counting jacksprat's 'intangibles', RBK!
razz

 
openning 2020-04-06 20:02:21 

In reply to Norm

Is Curtney Walsh the best West Indies fast bowler?

In other words, the only questions about cricketers that have unique correct answers are the ones based on stats. All other questions, such as "Is Courtney Walsh the best fast bowler?" could be answered correctly with either "yes" or "no".

Cricket is no different to any sport, when deciding the value, contribution or what a player meant to a team.
The best fast-bowler to represent the Maroon was Malcolm Marshall, I dont have to look at stats, Holding, and many others of his Peers, rate him.

 
dayne 2020-04-06 20:33:45 

In reply to openning

Marshall was the greatest WI bowler because he was the most impactful, could the same be said of Chanderpaul? Was Kanhai or Lloyd more game changing players than Chanderpaul, that could be the method used to grade a player's greatness.

 
openning 2020-04-06 21:27:36 

In reply to dayne

Marshall was the greatest WI bowler because he was the most impactful, could the same be said of Chanderpaul?

In what way was Shiv impactful?
Did he help in moving the team to the top of the world standing, or his stats alone made you think he was impactful
Kohli is impactful, Steve Smith is impactful, Viv was very impactful
Shiv was more reliable than impactful.
I was disappointed in Shiv, after Lara retire, he did not lead from the front, as one would expect the best batsman on the team to do.
You cannot bat at five, see wickets falling around you, and dont want to take matters into your hands, and move to #3, that what impactful players would do.
Take control.

 
Rudeman 2020-04-06 22:50:25 

Sorry I would rate Kanhai, Freddo, Kalli and Lloyd ahead of Shiv.

 
dayne 2020-04-06 23:59:01 

In reply to openning

I think you are in agreement with me, I was saying that Kanhai and Lloyd were impactful batsmen while Chanderpaul was not, so they could be rated higher than him.

 
jacksparrow 2020-04-07 01:12:21 

In reply to Kay

All in their own mind, subjective. I wouldn't say Shiv is the most stylish as well but he put up the numbers and lasted a long time, a fighter, resilient and proud West Indian. Calling him selfish is hypocritical, when the T20 opportunists now are called great.
Maybe in future generations when they google cricketers from Guyana , Shiv stats will pop up and the conclusion will be he was the best lol

 
Windies2017 2020-04-07 01:15:16 

In reply to jacksparrow

They keep disrespecting the man.

 
jacksparrow 2020-04-07 01:32:29 

In reply to Windies2017

always bro and then we wonder if it was true they didnt want the man to be leading scorer

 
natty_forever 2020-04-07 01:54:24 

In reply to dayne

But we all know Shiv could if he wanted to.

 
natty_forever 2020-04-07 01:55:48 

In reply to dayne

Please explain "impact player".

 
openning 2020-04-07 02:57:09 

In reply to natty_forever
Were you one of the fans, ho said Shiv has earned the right to bat where ever he want, and at his age, why should he be batting up the order..

 
Norm 2020-04-07 04:29:51 

So, the anti-Shiv squad ran out of steam?

Can we declare that Shiv is the greatest Guyanese Test batsman now?

 
Windies2017 2020-04-07 04:40:41 

In reply to jacksparrow

Exactly, it is disgraceful how some of these so-called "fans" treat the man after all he has done.

 
Dukes 2020-04-07 12:10:43 

In reply to Norm

So, the anti-Shiv squad ran out of steam?


There is absolutely no point in having a debate about Kanhai and Shiv if that is your attitude.I do not believe that those advocating for Shiv as the better of the two are anti-Kanhai.Here are two great Guyanese batsmen and simply because some of us prefer Kanhai we are classified as anti-Shiv.No meaningful discussion can take place with such an attitude and it is clear that any debate will quickly descend into a mud slinging brawl.I am not into that and have no desire to engage in such nonsense.Allyuh hold on to allyuh views and I will hold mine.

 
dayne 2020-04-07 12:38:12 

In reply to natty_forever

An impact player IMO is someone who through their skill changes the momentum of a game, Lloyd, Kanhai, Kalli had several innings where through their aggression and skill changed games, Chanderpaul had a few also, but not as many as those guys, he was more a survival mode batsman.

 
Norm 2020-04-07 12:43:27 

In reply to Dukes

it is clear that any debate will quickly descend into a mud slinging brawl.

Darn! I am not letting you off the hook that easy!

There is a difference between arguing against Shiv in a comparison, and disliking Shiv (being anti-Shiv). The latter category doesn't need a comparison - they will always be negative about Shiv. And they pop up very quickly when there's talk about Shiv - to tell you how much they dislike him.

Anyway, a comparison of Shiv with Kanhai would always be interesting, but would be less likely to descend into the gutters if we are clear on what is being discussed. Who is "greater" would be pure chaos. A statistical comparison could be pointless, unless qualities are chosen carefully. Maispwi started on an interesting track along those lines earlier in this thread.

More subjective qualities, such as style, endurance, situation awareness, match winning, etc, would actually make for an interesting discussion.

And, there will always be a need to shoo off the anti-Shiv lot in any Shiv discussion - just to try to stay out of the gutters!

 
openning 2020-04-07 17:02:46 

In reply to Dukes

Sunil Gavaskar, said that Kanhai was the greatest batsman he had ever seen, and he was so impressed, even besotted, by Kanhai that he called his own son Rohan. The England opener Dennis Amiss agreed.


Statistically, as I say, there have been greater batsmen, but sport isn’t only about statistics or even results. There are other intangible qualities, and Rohan Kanhai , like David Gower, exemplified them. He dazzled, delighted and amazed those who watched him. He was technically correct but also capable of astonishing improvisation.


Nobody admired him more than the famous West Indian cricket writer C. L. R. James. “Kanhai,” he wrote, “discovered, created, a new dimension in batting. He had found his way into regions Bradman never knew.”

Hyperbole? Of course. But that was the thing about Kanhai. He seemed to invent batting as he went along. Of all the magicians I have seen at the crease, there has been none more magical.


Link Text

 
Maispwi 2020-04-07 18:32:55 

In reply to Norm

When ah saw dat someone wrote dat Shiv had 30 tons and Kanhai 15 without taking into account dat Shiv batted a little more than twice the number of innings dat Kanhai did, ah decided it din make sense to do any more statistical analysis

 
analyst-kid 2020-04-07 21:39:09 

You all talking about Shiv vs Kanhai...to me a non debate...but there is no way I put Shiv ahead of that short man Kalli who was adept at both pace and spin.

LARA vs KALLICHARAN would be a better debate as I would argue Kalli was a better player of top pace.

 
ray 2020-04-07 21:45:55 

In reply to analyst-kid

now...dat will sure be a debate lol

I would argue for Kalli as well cool

 
anandgb 2020-04-08 12:31:05 

In reply to Dukes

There is absolutely no point in having a debate about Kanhai and Shiv if that is your attitude.I do not believe that those advocating for Shiv as the better of the two are anti-Kanhai.Here are two great Guyanese batsmen and simply because some of us prefer Kanhai we are classified as anti-Shiv.No meaningful discussion can take place with such an attitude and it is clear that any debate will quickly descend into a mud slinging brawl.I am not into that and have no desire to engage in such nonsense.Allyuh hold on to allyuh views and I will hold mine.


Perfect

 
openning 2020-04-08 16:02:09 

In reply to Norm
to tell you how much they dislike him

And, there will always be a need to shoo off the anti-Shiv lot in any Shiv discussion

Had I seen the about, I would not had responded to you or the post.
I've always voice my response on cricket, because I don't know the player.
Brother Cheek told me a number of years ago, that I hate Devon Smith.
I asked him, how can I hate someone, that has done me nothing.
Anti Shiv and dislike for Shiv, does nothing to any cricket discussion.

 
Norm 2020-04-08 16:08:18 

In reply to openning

Had I seen the about, I would not had responded to you or the post.

You always vex with me, as soon as I disagree with you, but I did not shoo you off. Doesn't that tell you who is not anti-Shiv, in my opinion?

You really getting me vex now. smile

 
jacksparrow 2020-04-08 17:31:46 

Bravos team Link Text

 
Kay 2020-04-09 01:51:38 

In reply to dayne

An impact player IMO is someone who through their skill changes the momentum of a game, Lloyd, Kanhai, Kalli had several innings where through their aggression and skill changed games, Chanderpaul had a few also, but not as many as those guys, he was more a survival mode batsman.

Could it be that for the majority of time in his career his team was in survival mode as opposed to the others?

 
openning 2020-04-09 02:03:22 

In reply to Kay

Was Lara in survival mode, was Gayle, Sarwan or Hooper in survival mode?
Viv after retiring, played in a President X1 at Sabina, he said at the end of the match, we are producing a group of survivors.
We can see it in Kraigg Brathwaite and Tage Chanderpaul.
I've suggested that Kraigg should thank the group, that assisted him so far, and find a new management group.
Tage has to get far away from his dad and grand dad and people that help him to this point, he may need to get out of Guyana.

 
jacksparrow 2020-04-09 03:39:53 

[b]In reply to openning[/b

Only GAYLE was able to last and thats because T20 came around. Man come on just give the man the props and done, everyone know he excelled he just didnt do it ala Richardson

 
openning 2020-04-09 03:49:45 

In reply to jacksparrow
I recognized Shiv, as a great West Indies batsman, I've been saying it for almost a decade.I just cannot compare him to many of the other greats
Because of his style of batting, I place him in the category of Joe Soloman, Larry Gomes and Gus Logie
None of these players, would not interest me to see them bat, but I know they could bat for days.
There is a saying, Larry Gomes was the glue, the team needed.

 
Norm 2020-04-09 07:09:40 

In reply to openning

Thanks, bro. No matter how much we disagree, I still value your opinion.

To keep order, I thought it best to state that "anti-Shiv" types were not welcome. That usually keeps the bad eggs away, but I may have over-used that term in these discussions. Sorry for offending some of you.

 
shivnotout 2020-04-09 13:27:42 

In reply to openning

Is Shiv Chanderpaul west indies best ever Glue? lol

 
openning 2020-04-09 14:18:16 

In reply to shivnotout

lol lol

 
Chrissy 2020-04-10 17:04:36 

In reply to shivnotout

No Rohan Kanhai is Guyana's best batsman and he didn't pad his average while running out his partners.

 
Narper 2020-04-10 17:14:46 

In reply to Chrissy

In reply to shivnotout

No Rohan Kanhai is Guyana's west batsman and he didn't pad his average while running out his partners

Shiv produced many many great partnerships with Hooper, Lara, Gayle and Sarwan...how come there were very few run outs when Shiv batted with these players?

Another point....if other batsmen had stayed with Shiv and not leave him stranded on so many occasions....he would have scored many more runs....and probably an even higher average

 
openning 2020-04-10 18:45:09 

In reply to Narper

Another point....if other batsmen had stayed with Shiv and not leave him stranded on so many occasions....he would have scored many more runs....and probably an even higher average

Shiv has earned the right to bat, where ever he feel like.
Why should a player his age, bat higher.
These are some of the responses I got, when I questioned Shiv's batting position, after Lara retire.
I still maintained Shiv should have lead the batting, by batting at either #3 or #4, after BCL retired.
The team had been fragile, needed the experience up front.

 
googley 2020-04-10 19:13:39 

In reply to Narper

Remember this quote from Shiv?

I learnt a lot from looking at Alvin Kallicharran’s technique. Rohan Kanhai corrected a few flaws I had earlier in my batting technique, and I will never forget the advice he gave me. He really knows the game, and can impart a lot of knowledge to many young cricketers. I also think he is a batting genius.



RBK was the GOAT and still is the GOAT from the mudland! wink

Bobbice Blaster! lol

 
Dukes 2020-04-10 19:22:07 

In reply to openning

Do you know that when Kanhai returned to the West Indies team in 1973 after missing the 1972 home series against New Zealand,not only was he made captain but he batted at # 5 against Australia.Rowe batted at # 3 and then Kallicharran and finally Davis.However when the team went to England,Kanhai resumed batting at # 3 at the age of 37..He averaged 44.60 batting at # 3 in that series.
It is a question of WHAT IS BEST FOR THE TEAM.not WHO HAS EARNED WHAT!!!!!!

 
openning 2020-04-10 19:44:10 

In reply to Dukes

This discussion on the two Guyanese is the best on this forum history.
The name calling and race baiting, is not part of the thread.
I questioned Shiv's batting position in real time, some fans responded as though he had ownership of the team, and can bat where ever he felt like.
I disagree at this time, cricket is a team sport, winning is important, Shiv watched too many wickets fall, in the last years of his career, losing match after match, without taking control of the batting.
Batting at five, with most of the tail, is not veteran leadership.

 
Dukes 2020-04-10 21:34:32 

I have been fortunate to know many Guyanese batsmen and to a man they revered Sobers and Kanhai like nobody else.I am talking about Lloyd,Fredericks,Kallicharran and Baichan who all felt that those two guys were in a class by themselves.

 
jacksparrow 2020-04-10 21:50:16 

Has Kanhai ever cold bloodedly won a ODI with 10 off the last 2 ball? Does he have a faster test century than Shiv? Theres many more but it might be a never ending argument in this forum as it seems to be a generation thing.Even with all his feats and stats people still hold on to their old ways and thats ok because those beautiful memories shaped and inspired us. Shiv also has fans the world around, people that have no interest in those before him, that were contenders, but in the end could not amass his numbers.
I think the next discussion should be who the best from the West Indies, lara or viv or are there other contenders?

 
Dan_De_Lyan 2020-04-10 22:32:47 

Two skunts puffing their chest like antiman Muscovy ducks about an EI cricketer

I will mediate a real discussion about the Guyana Elections. Go to the back room. That is current!!!!

@Jacksparrow. Same skunts are the ones who campaigned against SC going past Lara

 
Dan_De_Lyan 2020-04-10 22:34:57 

In reply to openning

U asking duke to not race bait?

shock

 
openning 2020-04-10 22:38:53 

In reply to jacksparrow
The first three players I would select for a CWI test squad are Sir Gary, Viv Richards, Malcolm Marshall

 
Norm 2020-04-10 23:35:08 

In reply to Dan_De_Lyan

U asking duke to not race bait?

Even if that statement had any merit, this would not have been the place for it.

 
Dan_De_Lyan 2020-04-10 23:52:07 

In reply to Norm

No merit you say?

Ask him to comment on Guyana Election and it’s racial Component

What is the right place?

 
Norm 2020-04-11 05:40:54 

In reply to Dan_De_Lyan

What is the right place?

The Back Room.

I was hoping you would do the right thing and at least stop pursuing your very off-topic line here. This thread is about cricket, not politics. The Back Room is for politics.

For the record, Dukes has always been a gentleman, and a master at cricket discussion, with lots of love for the game.

Some others, like openning has always shown outstanding discussion skills and love for the game. We disagree sometimes, but we always fix it and move on to the thing we love to do - discuss cricket. The same goes for the vast majority of the other Caribbean folk here, except the Guyanese.

For some reason, Guyanese put their extremely stupid race problems above everything else, even here in the cricket discussion forum. And here you are to prove exactly that. So, please do not disrupt the cricket discussion with stupid race politics.

Dukes has always been my friend, and I couldn't care less about his political choices. I trust he will do what he thinks is best for everyone. Openning and I could also be the best of buddies if he knew me better, as would most of the folk here who love to discuss cricket.

So, please take your non-cricket concerns to the Back Room.

 
johndom90 2020-04-11 21:07:59 

and to a man they revered Sobers and Kanhai
In reply to Dukes

I would have liked to see kanhai in his prime. Caught his tail end in 73, 74, when my cricketing knucks were coming in.

What you said about Sobers/kanhai being revered was true both in my home and in my home village where many tales were told under streetlight of their exploits.

I think it is just a question of their particular style, attitude, that ease of exploitation, creativity in making something of nothing. Viv....Lara...would fit in as well. Players who could consistently make something out of nothing when in the middle...and do it very quickly.

 
Dukes 2020-04-11 21:15:24 

In reply to johndom90

Yes they were revered by fans but what struck me was that they were revered by people who were pretty darn good in their own right.