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Please feel free to join in, but no stupid stuff, please. I will try to moderate and summarize as much as possible, but I am officially working from home. So ...

Statistical comparisons will have to be for similar game formats: Tests, ODIs, FC and List A.

Subjective comparisons would be okay too, but please provide some sort of supporting evidence, such as a match report, quote from a book, published article, etc. Assertions, such as "I saw X lash Big Aussie Fast bowler a mile out of the ground!" will be nigh impossible to evaluate.

Dukes: One needs to clearly lay out points with supporting evidence, opinions and contextual situations.Specific examples of incidences and anecdotes.

I will start by copying the substantial points from the other thread.

Thus far, from the original thread, in chronological order:

Dayne: Maybe it could be verified, but Chanderpaul might have the distinction of being the player who while being included in the WI team experienced the most losses.

Could you verify, please? The result should be: WI lost x Test matches with Shiv in the team, and y Test matches with Kanhai in the team. It might make sense to come up with a fraction (losses/no of matches) for each.

Still, let's call this Point 1: Which player was WI more successful with?

Norm: Shiv (30 Test centuries) is the greatest Guyanese batsman ever. Twice as good as the next in line (Lloyd (16) or Kanhai (15).

Point 2: Which player scored more hundreds?

Openning: Rohan can still fill any ground in the region, unlike Shiv.

Examples? Supporting articles?

Point 3: Which player was more popular?

Openning:

I first saw Rohan when I was about 13 years.
People were arguing , who was the best batsman, The Greatest and him.
Next time I saw him, he was stopping traffic in Bridgetown, that how great this man was, on and off the cricket field.

Good stuff. More personal experiences could help to establish Kanhai's immense popularity.

Solidrock:

But, just as I see Yagga as very top-notch in the echelon of WI batsmen who does not have the numbers, who can argue against Tiger who does have real numbers, especially against other Guyanese batsmen.

Jacksparrow:

According to the numbers, he is ...

Maispwi:

This is interesting. Lets add some more numbers to the mix.

Shiv played slightly more than twice as many tests as Kanhai and also batted just over twice as many innings.

Shiv scored a hundred every 9.3 innings
Kanhai scored a hundred every 9.1 innings

Shiv's conversion rate for 50's to hundreds is 31% compared with 35% for Kanhai

Moderator: This was really good. Thanks, Maispwi!

Kay:

It is also based on the age of those who are actually bragging of having seen Kanhai bat.They say something about first impressions …

Moderator: Deep stuff from Kay, as usual.

Openning:

In what way was Shiv impactful? Did he help in moving the team to the top of the world standing(?) Shiv was more reliable than impactful.

I was disappointed in Shiv, after Lara retire, he did not lead from the front, as one would expect the best batsman on the team to do. You cannot bat at five, see wickets falling around you, and dont want to take matters into your hands, and move to #3, that what impactful players would do. Take control.

Moderator: Good stuff, but how does this help to compare Shiv with Kanhai? You should perhaps expand by giving your views on Kanhai about these same points.

Jacksparrow:

I wouldn't say Shiv is the most stylish as well but he put up the numbers and lasted a long time, a fighter, resilient and proud West Indian. Calling him selfish is hypocritical, when the T20 opportunists now are called great.

Dayne: An impact player IMO is someone who through their skill changes the momentum of a game, Lloyd, Kanhai, Kalli had several innings where through their aggression and skill changed games, Chanderpaul had a few also, but not as many as those guys, he was more a survival mode batsman.

In reply to Norm
Mi fadda tell meh he saw RB walk down the QPO steps to bat at the fall of Cammie Smith's wicket,against India in 60;he said the second he made his first step through his walk to the wicket,yuh cudda hear ah pin drop",only Rohan could have brought out that silence.India's best fast bowler of the 60s Desai,known to have troubled some of the best batsmen in test,fuss ball to the Rodan driven through the covers for 4,crowd erupted as if RB had just completed a double century.You know what I mean Norm,need I say more.
Nuff respect for the Shiv though.

Having seen Kanhai, Kalli, Fredo, Lloyd and Shiv. I have gone to matches just to see the first four bat. Can't say I have gone to a match anticipating Shiv coming to the crease. Shiv was an awesome accumulator. You could get up and get a few drinks with Shiv batting. The others you tend to have your drinks and food right next to you.

In reply to seaegg99
I never saw Fredo but from what I read by almost every journalist,he was one of the best strokemakers and a fearless batsman.I read of an innings he once played against Australia in Oz,that must have been something to watch.

Towards the end of his career, Bourda was packed to see a match between Berbice and Demerara. Kanhai was nearing the end of his career and the the crowd was so restless to see him bat. Berbice end up batting towards the end of the day and when Kanhai came to the crease, man that gave you goosebumps. It was truly incredible the adoration they had for him. He played a glorious shot for 4 and that place went wild!

I did not see Kanhai as much as Kalli, but I would put both of those players above Shiv. I would pay to see them bat over Shiv any day! Freddo was better than Shiv as well...even Lloyd

I don't hate SHiv, but he did not have shots like those guys...and that is what I base my opinion on.

I would venture to say that Sarwan is also a better batman than Shiv

in the days before live television coverage or on demand coverage, fans were thrilled to see players they only heard of when they came to town as their reputation preceded them.Shiv is loved around the Caribbean Barbados comes to mind, and I believe Dominica where he has dual citizenship(?) Again all the arguments Kanhai etc, are all subjective but Shiv numbers dominate. Kanhai's numbers for example 9.3 compared to the 9.1 production of centuries does not offer any competition simply because of the longevity of Shiv's career and the amount of runs while he still produced 100's with an excellent average.
Fact is the others were not good enough to last that long, either mentally,physically or ability/performance.
Give the man his due once and for all and dont stifle yall conscience.Yes there were more talented players than him but he stuck to his guns and out produced them all!

In reply to jacksparrow

Link Text

In reply to openning

i am not even going to open the link, the first sentence is enough support for Shiv is the greatest from Guyana

In reply to jacksparrow
To each his/her own.
I am not here to change your mind, my years of watching and following West Indies cricket, is enough for me to say, Rohan Kanhai is not only the best batman from Guyana, but he is among the top batsman to wear the
Maroon.

BTW, who is your top fast bowler?

In reply to ray

That's bare nonsense and straight up disrespectful to say Sarwan is a better batsman than Shiv smh

In reply to openning

Look one man's appreciation of a cover drive might not appeal to another, some like Kohli, some like Williamson, some say Shai Hope. ie I am saying this is not about who looked the best, this is about the numbers the man put up and no one from Guyana comes close.
Maybe we should ask who is the best from the other regions and see what is used for those arguments

In reply to openning

Fast bowlers, hmm I heard of some, saw a few and read about the rest, this will take some thought I will get back to you

In reply to jacksparrow

Barbadians are cricket lovers, they even Knighted Carl Hooper.
Why dont you have a survey with non Guyanese to whom was the Best Guyanese batsman.

In reply to granite

Kanhai was definitely popular! I myself have dozens of articles and stories about his popularity.

In reply to seaegg99

Fair assessment, I would say.

In reply to ray

He did not have the shots, or he did not play them? Did he block his way to Test century in 69 balls, or to 300 in a day's play in a first class match for Guyana at Sabina Park? And that over from Harmison from which he scored 28 or so in a ODI?

In reply to jacksparrow

Compared to Shiv, that has been one of Kanhai's weaknesses - endurance. Kanhai on countless occasions had to retire hurt during his innings, because of cramps. Another area is length of continuous form. Compared to Shiv, Kanhai has fewer stretches of good form, as reflected by sequences of high scores of 50 and above, for example. Again, durability.

In reply to openning

Perhaps we should keep it to Shiv and Kanhai, gentlemen.

In reply to Norm

Is it because Shiv's stats count, and not a player like Walsh, the leading test wicket taker?

In reply to jacksparrow
Gary Sober was the best cricketer to play the game, Vivian Richards is the most dominant batsman, from the region.
In any all-time Windies team, the first three players in my squad, would be Gary Sobers, Viv Richards and Malcolm Marshall.

In reply to openning

No. It is because we need to stay on topic - Shiv vs Kanhai. Ultimately, we may all learn a bit more about these guys, if we scrutinize them from all sorts of angles and hear other opinions about them. But, we need to stay on topic.

(Besides that, we need to leave some of the other discussions for the other topics, man! )

In reply to Norm

methinks that is a typo

What is BATSMANSHIP?

Most people go to cricket to see great batsmen conquering great bowlers.

Bowlers are great because they bowl good balls frequently and intersperse them with great balls.Great batsmen keep out great balls and defend some good balls and attack other good balls.In other words

Great batsmen are known to hit good balls to the boundary.It is when batsmen dominate people like Hall,Griffith,Trueman,Lillee,Ambrose,Holding,Marshall,McGrath,Waqar,Lee and Akhtar that we become excited.
It is when one batsman stands out from the others in terms of scoring rate during an innings that we sit up and take notice.It is when you can remember an innings with specific shots half -century later.
When someone says that Kallis is as good as Sobers in batting,I realize that the understanding of cricket has escaped such a person.
When we see a batsman conquer bowlers on a difficult pitch, such as Sobers did at Sabina Park in 1968 we know we are in the presence of genius.When a batsman can hit the same ball to the boundary of either front or back foot, we know we are watching a great batsman.
47 years ago as a teenager,I was at Bourda watching a Trial match prior to the 1973 WI cricket season.It was late afternoon on a Saturday and the newly appointed Guyana captain Rohan Kanhai came out to bat.He was 37 years at the time and was prematurely greying.He was going to face Robert Adonis nicknamed PACER who had just sent somebody's stumps cartwheeling.Everybody was excited.People were goading Pacer to bowl a bouncer at the old man.Sure enough the first ball was a screaming bouncer and Rohan ducked.Crowd went wild.Next ball outside off stump and Rohan left it alone.He then carefully defended the next ball but Pacre then bowled another bouncer which Rohan again ducked under.By now the crowd was going crazy with shouting and banging on the wood stands for more bouncers.In defense of Pacer he was young and excitable and he obliged us with a 3rd bouncer.I believe it must have been outside the off stump because quick as a flash Kanhai got in position and pulled the ball which soared over the stands.Kanhai was batting at the Regent Street end and the ball landed in New Garden street and bounced over the fence into the church yard.There was no more cricket that afternoon.Those events that afternoon are imprinted indelibly in my mind but that is not why I rate Rohan as Guyana's greatest batsman.It is because of innings he played against great bowlers.
Here are 5 TOP DRAWER INNINGS he played

1.In 1964 against Barbados at Kensington Oval. B.G lose their first wicket without a run on the board after 1 over each from Hall and Griffith B.G 2 wickets for 1 run.Shortly after B.G 13-3 with Wiltshire,Harnana and Butcher all dismissed for ducks.Griffith then clean bowls Kanhai but the Umpire calls No-Ball.2 hours later Kanhai is dismissed by Hall for 108 and B.G is 165-4.The 12th man for B.G is 19 year old Clive Lloyd who in recounting the innings told me he has never seen that type of batting against such ferocious pace before or since.Mind you he told me that before Freddo's knock against Lillee and Thompson at Perth.

2.In 1960 against Victoria at the MCG Kanhai made 252 against Victoria.He came in at 45-1 and at close of play the score was 122-1 with him on 38.When he was dismissed for 252,the score was 459-5.It was such a ferocious innings that it made THE NEW YORK TIMES on November 20,1960 page 15 with the Headline:West Indies Kanhai gets 252 at cricket.THINK ABOUT THAT.This was not a test match and it is CRICKET and it is in THE New York Times!!!!!The article talked briefly about the innings and said that Kanhai dented the prospects of 3 bowlers for the upcoming test matches.

3.in 1959 Kanhai scored 256 taming the great Gupte

4.In 1971-72 at Perth he scored 118 in the second innings for the World XI against Australia.What is noteworthy about this innings is that in the first Innings Denis Lillee took 7 for 29 and bowled the World XI out for 59.Those of you around at the time would also know that Perth at the time was the FASTEST,BOUNCIEST PITCH IN THE WORLD.Sunil Gavaskar made 21 and batted with him and felt that Kanhai was the best batsman he ever saw.

5. In 1961 in the 4th test at Adelaide Kanhai scored 117 and 115.In the first innings he batted for a little more than 2 hours and only 69 runs were scored at the other end.

Interestingly after scoring more than 500 runs in the test series in Australia and over 100 runs in all first class matches on the tour, the Chairman of the Australian Selectors,the incomparable Sir Donald Bradman decided that Australian cricket would benefit from the wonderful cricketers in the domestic Sheffield Shield tournament.At the time there were 5 teams,New South Wales,Victoria,Western Australia,Queensland and South Australia. NSW and Victoria were clearly better than the other 3 so Bradman arranged for Kanhai to play for Western Australia,Hall to play for Queensland and Sobers to play for South Australia.TALK ABOUT VISIONARY LEADERSHIP!!!!! Bradman was absolutely;y correct and all 3 distinguished themselves in the 1961-62 season.

Benaud on Kanhai after both scored 2 centuries in the series:I think that both Kanhai and Sobers had great seasons but Kanhai
probably shaded Sobers.

Lloyd on Kanhai:Clearly Rohan is the best batsman we(Guyana) have ever produced

Gavaskar on Kanhai: The best batsman I have ever seen

Trueman in 1976:I rate Sobers only marginally ahead of Kanhai,They were both phenomenal batsmen

Kanhai batted for most of his career at the pivotal # 3 position. In 90 innings at this position he scored 14 centuries and averaged 52.69 with no not outs.
In 1973 at the age of 37 he went back to his old # 3 position in England and scored 54 and 157 in the 2nd and 3rd tests.He batted 5 times and the highest score when he came in was 33.In his 90 innings at # 3 he came in to bat when the score was less than 25 on 46 occasions!!!!
In his 17 series he played in he averaged 40 or more 13 times.The first 2 series at the beginning of his career he averaged in the 20's.In his last series he also averaged in the 20's.The only other time he failed to average 40 was in Australia in 68-69 when he averaged 37.Mind you he was carrying knee injury and missed the New Zealand tour immediately after.

I have so much more information on ROHAN BHOLALL KANHAI if the above does not convince you that he is the GREATEST GUYANESE BATSMAN EVER.


CORRECTIONS:1. Kanhai had 1 not out batting at # 3.

2.He averaged 37 in his second series.

In reply to Dukes

Probably. I haven't had much chance to research this, but it was off 478 balls (2 balls short of 80 overs), per Wikipedia. Assuming he took half the strike, it would have required 160 overs, or about a session short of 2 days.

I would like to have occupied the crease like Shiv with the grace and flair of Kanhai

In reply to Dukes

Very nice! It implies Kanhai's strengths and superlatives, without being specific. Popular, bombastic, daring, dashing and very proud.

Let me say that I am taking Shiv's side in this debate for purely "academic" reasons. I can, and will, provide substantial amounts of material praising Kanhai. Nevertheless, Shiv had his strengths too, and I will get to those too.

In reply to ponderiver

That would have been a near perfect batsman!

If anyone would like to read a copy of "Blasting For Runs" by Rohan Kanhai, please PM me with an email address that can receive a 3 MB attachment, within a week of today.

In reply to Norm

How much are you charging..? I used to have a paperback copy years ago...

By the way, CH Lloyd had 19 test centuries, you listed a different number..

In reply to Dukes

Thanks for that Dukes

In reply to Elsie

Free, dammit! (That's why I can only keep it open for a week. People might get upset. )


Thanks. I kinda felt it was not correct (I write almost everything from memory).

In reply to Norm

This kill all your arguements!

You have to also take into consideration Shiv may have become a grinder due to the team he was playing for/in, he was seldom able to express himself but nevertheless excelled in what he had to do

In reply to WestDem

Statistical comparisons would be impossible otherwise. It boils down to Tests, first class cricket and List A, because Kanhai did not play much of the rest of formats.

For other comparisons, however, anything is fair game, as long as it does not stray too far from Shiv or Kanhai.

In reply to Norm

He made it look that easy. …Go to the 25th minute!.