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Hubert, DonD & Ewart

 
Dukes 2020-04-24 01:03:33 

I have never seen Alf Valentine bowl and today was the first time I was seeing video of him bowling in Australia in 1960-61.Because he was listed as slow left arm orthodox,I assumed what type of action he would have.I was therefore astounded that he had a windmill type of action and seemed to be bowling more wrist spin than finger spin.His arm was quite low too which was surprising.Did he also bowl chinamen and googles?I am quite confused as he is listed as left arm orthodox

 
DonD 2020-04-24 01:25:38 

In reply to Dukes

Don't recall Val bowling a chinaman delivery. His deliveries were pretty quick with a fair amount of spin imparted. Val was essentially a finger spinner his deliveries literally buzzing through the air. He suffered with a sore spinning finger. I am sure that Hubert and Ewart have more to add.

 
openning 2020-04-24 02:01:29 

In reply to Dukes
This thread send me to YouTube.
Saw Sir Frank bowling and batting for the first time, Lance, Val and Ram, spun the ball.
BTW, Lance understand spin bowling, have a look at three spinners, they all had a follow through.
Below is the Lord's Third test, 1963.
Link Text

 
Oilah 2020-04-24 03:02:09 

In reply to DonD

his deliveries literally buzzing through the air.


How my father described Valentines's bowling smile

 
Ewart 2020-04-24 03:06:33 

In reply to Dukes

Val was an orthodox left-arm (leg-break) bowler, and he used finger spin for most of his life. Don't know about him and the chinaman. Don't think so. Remember his first Test series was before they implemented the lbw rule about balls outside the leg-stump.

He was also a member of Kensington Cricket Club where I played before I left Jamaica in 1976.

He was taught his bowling by a cricketer named Maragh (check hubert). The story I heard is that, as Don D says, he did suffer from sore spinning finger. But Maragh supplied the remedy which was to soak the finger and entire hand I believe in salt water. Never heard anything about the soreness problem after that.

Val was really nice guy and he was loved and respected everywhere including his club and his job as a Jaguar and BMC car salesman at John Crook Limited on Hanover Street.

In his first match at Sabina after the 1950 series he was hailed by the pavilion crowd as "The World." They were so proud of him.


//

 
Dukes 2020-04-24 13:10:45 

In reply to Ewart and DonD

Thank you Gentlemen.I went back and looked closely at Val's action and indeed you are correct.I think what confused me was the windmill action.
It is interesting that mention is made of sore spinning fingers.Lance Gibbs also had that problem and I have personally seen the calluses on both his index and third finger.Occasionally they bled.I seriously doubt that our current crop of spin bowlers will ever have that problem.I note the hornet's nest that Gibbs has raised with his comments about our current finger spinners but it is true that they do not give it a "good rip".

 
hubert 2020-04-24 14:06:10 

In reply to Dukes

Sorrty,Dukes, just saw the post as I hve been busy and getting set to take off on the road again soon.

Yes Val was an orthodox left arm spinner. But he was was pretty quick and a tremendous spinner of the ball.
Only Lance Gibbs came close as a vicious spinner of the ball. Both men had long fingers so that could be a factor.
Val used to rip the ball and this allowed him ,like Gibbs to get bounce on any surface.
That was a critical factor in his repertoire which expanded with a killer of an arm ball.

His partner in early days was of course Ram who was a mystery type but slower through the air and had much greater
success against English batsmen not so the Aussies who worked him out soon in 1951-52 series and subsequent ones.
In fact, so vicious was Val's spin in Australia, that they claimed he could spin it off glass and was much the better
nemesis on that tour. They just could not advance to him that easily and when they did, stumping would come into play.

Old timers still talk of the dismissal of Colin McDonald on that 1st day of the 1st Test at Sabina when Binns effected a
lightning stumping as McDonald attempted to leave his crease.
I had heard tales of midon and midoff fielders saying that they could hear Val's deliveries on its way to the batsmen during the 1950
tour of England. I had a small taste of that in a curry goat game fielding close to Val at Bernard Lodge,a ground that is mosquito
prone so I thought it was the creatures buzzing my ears until I realize it was the ball sizzling down the line.

Because of the tremendous spin that Val imparted and at pace, and the many overs he bowled in the first two
two series, his fingers started to develop problems as early as the New Zealand section of that 51-52 tour Down Under,
It got progressively worse and Val rarely played a full series after 1953 India home tour. In fact,one Sobers was
called in to replace him At Sabina Park as a 17 year old in the '54 home tour vs England.

AS a young 20 year old, and with a task master such as Goddard as captain, Val like Ram were 'abused'.A check of their work rate in 1950 and 51-52
is plain to see.Val even bowled 90 odd overs in a n innings at Nottingham in 1950 and Ram was not far behind; Ram eventually broke that record with 98
seven years later at Edgbaston. But consistently they were called to shoulder the burden.
In fact after Pakistan toured in 58 ,Val who played maybe a solitary Test as he did in the previous tour of England, was not expected to play
Tests again.
But the man he adored, Worrell took him to Australia ,to much surprise, as he missed the 60 Home series against England and he was able to
form a vibrant spin attack with Gibbs, only because Richie Benaud gave him some medical ointment of some kind which worked
wonders for him and he was able to make significant contribution against all odds, except for the Final Test when he had an encounter with a bongo
drum during that match and which wrecked his fingers ,and he was unable to bowl much in the first innings and with Frank also hurting, it
reduced the attack to Hall,Sobers(in three styles) and Gibbs.

And in that razor edge finish, after bowling Grout with that arm ball,(the umpires ruled not out) the winning run came from byes off his
bowling as Alexander failed to latch onto a pacey one.

Val's early mentor was one George Mudie, also a left arm spinner who was sent for as reinforcement for the ground breaking 48-59 India tour
but never got there sad

Val learned his cricket on a hillside pitch near Mount Rosser in st.Catherine.One part of the field was a precipice; so that could explain
why he bowled the way he did and could be so miserly too.
Val loved a challenge as a bowler and his greatest pride as he told me ,was dismissing the great Hutton as he took the first eight wickets to fall
on his debut at Old Trafford. To him Hutton's bat ' was broad sah' and he could bat and gave spin twins a rough time.

Because of that Val who left the Caribbean with Ram as rookies,(still the best selectorial gamble in WI cricket) worked hard to develop his armoury
including an arm ball with which he cleaned up Hutton at Lord's (' You could see the shock on his face ') and gave him a most cherished memory.

Gibbs also had a subtle arm ball many did not know of and which outfoxed many according to Hendricks,the best behind the sticks.
Yes, LAnce had his Jackie, and Val had his Walcott and Binns.

BTW Val took 54 wickets in his 1st nine matches and was the first black man to get 100 Test wickets and in less than 24 matches too.
He was a real spinner and he could bowl.

Sorry to be so long..but Dukes you called mi name
big grin
Gone again.///

 
Maispwi 2020-04-24 14:16:40 

In reply to hubert

Too long? Great stuff can never be too long

 
Oilah 2020-04-24 14:19:51 

In reply to hubert

Wonderful...thanks smile

 
Ewart 2020-04-24 14:22:12 

In reply to hubert

Thanks hubert. Great stuff on Val. I did not remember that name... George Mudie, not Maragh.

big grin big grin


//

 
openning 2020-04-24 15:32:21 

In reply to hubert

Very informative,.
Thanks doc for this thread, I was able to spend a couple hours on Youtube, watching Lance, Val and Ram.
Lance understand spin bowling, I listened to him on Tuesday evening, in which he said,"You cannot spin the ball, from a few steps".
Val, Ram and Lance had a follow through.

 
DonD 2020-04-24 16:04:40 

In reply to hubert
Great stuff Hubert. I don't know if anyone posting here is familiar with the : Famous Cricketers Series.. These monographs give a fairly detailed account of the cricketer's life and a complete statistical account of the cricketer's performances. I stopped ordering them in 2006, the year when I moved to London, Ontario. Oddly enough, the last one I received covered Valentine. I am not aware of a detailed biography written on Val. This monograph however, is quite detailed and summarizes his life adequately.

 
Dukes 2020-04-24 16:17:09 

To DonD,Hubert and Ewart:

On behalf of the other members of this board, let me express my profound thanks to you guys for your very informative posts both here on this thread and elsewhere on this board. Hopefully,the increase in knowledge of the other members of this board in all things cricket will lead to more enlightened discussions in the future.

RESPECT!!!

 
openning 2020-04-24 16:21:09 

In reply to DonD
Hearing about it for the first time.
I have copies of Caribbean Cricket quarterly, and West Indies cricket annual.
In 1997 I went to Tony Cozier home, to replace a copy I lend to a friend.

 
openning 2020-04-24 16:24:19 

In reply to Dukes

Thanks to you also doc.
I was on Youtube a few hours yesterday, looking at Ram, Lance and Val.

 
DonD 2020-04-24 16:37:27 

In reply to Dukes

It's more than 20 years since I have been posting, first on CANA and then on this Board, STARTING AROUND 2001. I have also learned a lot from you and many of the other pioneers and late comers. Thanks!!

To Opening, here is the address for Famous Cricketers: Complete Series.

ACS Sales,
Blue Bell House
2-4 Main Street
Scredington
Sleaford,
Lincs.
NG34OAE

 
Ippon 2020-04-24 16:45:21 

In reply to DonD

Thanks for the postings,I normally don`t contribute but here goes.
Sorry but I will just post the link.Scroll down to #94 for Val.
https://stats.acscricket.com/famous_cricketers/index.html

 
DonD 2020-04-24 16:57:10 

In reply to Ippon

Thanks! Didn't know these were posted on line. Must have been post 2006.

 
Maispwi 2020-04-24 17:11:24 

In reply to Ippon

Thanks. Helping out de link. Val is # 94

 
Ippon 2020-04-24 17:14:28 

In reply to Maispwi

Thanks,it`s appreciated.Don`t remember how to.

 
Ippon 2020-04-24 17:15:06 

In reply to DonD

You are welcome.

 
Maispwi 2020-04-24 17:16:39 

In reply to Dukes

On behalf of the other members of this board, let me express my profound thanks to you guys for your very informative posts both here on this thread and elsewhere on this board.


Ditto

 
Oilah 2020-04-24 18:57:46 

Yes Dukes these three Hubert, DonD and Ewart are a wonderful source of information. Not just for the great content but also for the way it is expressed. Makes me feel as if I'm listening to my father and his friends. Nuff respect to De Three Muskateers smile

 
Dukes 2020-04-24 19:07:13 

In reply to Ippon

Thank you kind sir. MUCH APPRECIATED!!!

 
Dukes 2020-04-24 19:09:50 

In reply to Oilah

Indeed!!! I agree wholeheartedly.
Just like I wish that all my conversations with Berkley Gaskin were on tape.He was an amazing chap.