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Gayle or Sarwan -- Better Test Batsman

 
Trinidave 2020-05-01 18:19:43 

TriniDave tinks dat dis squabble between UniBorse and RonnieReptile can be solve fairly and squarely.

Who is right and who is wrong? TriniD says, de better Test batsman is right.

Although Gayle has a higher Test average, and has not 1, but 2 test triples, Sarwan was de better Test batsman. Sarwan is responsible for one of WI's greatest Test wins ever, in dat run chase against Australia. Had some big innings against Sri Lanka, for example, tuh seal a series.

Ronnie was a better Test batsman.

Therefore Sarwan is right and Gayle is wrong.

So TriniD seh.

 
Seechy 2020-05-01 18:31:12 

In reply to Trinidave

Ronnie was the better Test batsman. Universe Boss has had the overall greater impact.

 
Halliwell 2020-05-01 18:42:09 

In reply to Trinidave

Although Bradman has a better Test average, Marlon is a better batsman

 
Drapsey 2020-05-01 18:51:05 

In reply to Trinidave

333 (and with that score became the 3rd (and last) player to score a triple ton away from home).

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-01 18:52:57 

In reply to Trinidave

Sarwan....his innings against Murali on a turning QPO pitch was a masterclass. Also, that same series, gayle spent all of a final day hiding from chamina vaas, coming in at 5 or 6

 
openning 2020-05-01 18:56:41 

In reply to Seechy
Please define better batsman?

 
Slipfeeler 2020-05-01 19:54:31 

In reply to Trinidave

“Better” obviously according to your opinion is based on subjectivity and not objective data. Gayle as you are forced to realize or confess has a higher batting average, has two test triple centuries and is the last great WI batsman to score a test triple century. So please help us to understand your reasoning to your premise that Sarwan is a better batsman. Not withstanding the fact that I am a fan of Sarwan and I like him as a batsman, I watched both Sarwan and Chanderpaul bat in St. Thomas, USVI, which was quite a treat for me as a fan of both batsmen.

 
imusic 2020-05-01 20:58:30 

In reply to Trinidave

Sarwan better test batsman TD?

Any data to supports that opinion?

I know Dukes loves using stats and “facts” to support whatever point he makes and he 8’ confident he will be able to bring some analytics to the question posed.

 
vsingh 2020-05-01 21:28:06 

I'll tell you the differences with the averages.

Between 2009 and 2011 Sarwan played 4 Test and averages 28

Between 2012 onwards Gayle played 18 test and averages 46.72

Overall Sarwan have more 100s per test since both have 15 100s with Sarwan playing 87 matches and Gayle 103.

 
Raggs 2020-05-01 21:42:10 

Gayle is the better batsman. If you count odi and t20 cricket. He has and making a bigger impact on cricket than Sarwan. In fact he change the game. T20 booklet for batting was written off the blade of his bat....fact
Can't use one format to win that argument.

 
TheTrail 2020-05-01 21:46:24 

If Sarwan's career hadn't met an abrupt departure, his test average would have been up

in the fifties today. He was a proper batsman and stroke player. A sight to see on the go,

and he wasn't afraid of any bowler. No bowler ever had the upper hand on him.

 
anthonyp 2020-05-01 21:46:56 

In reply to Slipfeeler

Gayle is a not a "great" WI batsman.. Lara and Shiv were de last two greats we produced.

To be a great he gotta average close to 50 or more.. he's a good batsman but not a great.

Yes Gayle got a better average but when it comes to natural talent Sarwan is more gifted.. Sarwan is another Hooper, tons of talent and he just wasted it..

 
vsingh 2020-05-01 21:51:00 

In reply to Raggs

You're right.

With the advent of T20 Cricket, this is when Sarwan took a free fall. It seems he never understand how to bat in T20 and this went down to the power of the man since he was more timing for fours and not sixes, Always looks nervous in T20 especially after a few dot balls.

 
vsingh 2020-05-01 21:57:57 

and he wasn't afraid of any bowler. No bowler ever had the upper hand on him.
In reply to TheTrail

Dilhara Fernando and Umar Gul right a bell?

 
Ray123 2020-05-01 23:18:28 

Gayle is a very good slogger. 2 times out of ten he will get away with it in Test Cricket. No technique whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong. We've always had those types of players and he is one of the best.

Sarwan was a proper batsman who actually had a technique to help him survive difficult conditions more in Test Cricket.

Yes a CG would be more entertaining for fans with boundaries and power but for purest like myself watching a Test with a Sarwan in full flow driving and late cutting is a dream come true.

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-01 23:26:18 

In reply to TheTrail

I totally agree. As i said earlier, the first test of that SL series in 2008 saw the west indies being really badly beaten by SL. Gayle cannot play the moving ball so he was a sitting duck for Vaas. Duck in the first innings to vaas and came in at 6 in the second. The first and only time he dropped himself so low. Vaas got him anyway. Then i saw sarwan, on a much more difficult qpo pitch, master murali and vaas, and help us level the series. Its criminal what that ugly fool Otis did to him.

In reply to vsingh
you do know that Dilhara fernando had knocked out Jacques Kallis too right? Stop denigrating players to suit your own narrow narrative. And that inswinger from gul was unplayable. Did you not see what he did to lara's stumps, who had come in to that match averaging over 150 for the entire series?

Kallis' hit is almost identical to sarwan's

[Link Text

 
imusic 2020-05-02 00:32:51 

In reply to vsingh

Interesting. I didn’t factor in “cherry picking stats” into the data equation.

Cherry picking can go the other way as well though

 
imusic 2020-05-02 00:42:43 

In reply to TheTrail

If Sarwan's career hadn't met an abrupt departure, his test average would have been up

On the contrary, Sarwan’s CUMULATIVE TEST BATTING AVERAGE FROM HIS 78th TEST MATCH TO HIS LAST demonstrate a downward trend.

It is not out of the realm of possibility that had he continued to play on, his test batting average would likely to end up sub 40

 
Trex 2020-05-02 02:49:36 

In reply to anthonyp

Gayle is a not a "great" WI batsman.


For a man who was not considered great, considered to hardly move his feet, weakness against swing bowling (especially left handers), considered to be a bad opener, couldn't play spin in tests.....

Chris Gayle scored triple centuries in tests and the most dominant batsman in the limited version of the game.

Could be argued to be the GREATEST opening batsman in multiple versions of Cricket.

cool

 
Jeremy 2020-05-02 02:57:35 

sarwan is a way better test batsman then gayle. gayle cannot bat left hand seamer bowling like vaas and other lefties.


If not for injuries sarwan would have average in the high 40ies. Sarwan was controlling the hook shot more and more later in his career. sarwan had learn to leave alone the short ball later in his career.

Aslo i hate to say it but sarwan was pushed our of west indies cricket because of this race and jealousy. Thats why sarwan won the court case agains wicb.

guys like gayle and bravo do not like sarwan because of jealousy. bravo especially, he wanted sarwan out so he could get a spot on the test team.

i saw on many occasion during the stanford series and the caribbean t20 series that bravo was mouthing off sarwan when he was coming in to bat. bravo is a little duncy school boy.

shiv too was push out of west indies cricket because of race. They don't want him to break lara record.

ramdin too was push out.

 
Jeremy 2020-05-02 03:01:00 

I give up long time now on west indies cricket. west indies cricket is run by a bunch of dunce.

same for guyana cricket a bunch of dunce is running it.


guyana cricket is killing young talent like gudakesh motie and baskar yadram. They don't pick them guys. guyana cricket have killed many young talents.

guyana cricket have duncy like esuan crandon and reon griffith running the show.

reon griffith do not like sarwan because sawan as skipper was not picking him in the final 11 for guyana. So now he is the selector he was not picking sarwan for the guyana team for spite purpose.

by the way reon griffith was a pelter. reon griffith should be selling at the flea market. i don't know who make him guyana selector.

 
Trex 2020-05-02 03:03:42 

In reply to Jeremy

Aslo i hate to say it but sarwan was pushed our of west indies cricket because of this race and jealousy.


Posters like you caused me to take a long vacation from this MB.

Glad to see I will be treated to some fcukry posts which will give me laugh or two on a Friday evening. lol lol

You said Shiv got pushed out because of race. So what you saying is that if SHiv was of a different race he would have retired at 65... lol lol

 
Jeremy 2020-05-02 03:07:25 

In reply to Trex

no he would have broke lara record and then retires. shiv was still playing regional cricket for 3 yrs after west indies push him out.

And guess what shiv was still scoring more runs and averageing higer average then all the mickey mouse caribbean cricketer.

shiv still had 3 mores years left in him when they push him out.

 
Trex 2020-05-02 03:13:10 

In reply to Jeremy

shiv still had 3 mores years left in him when they push him out.


Seems Shiv supporters were willing to push shiv out in a wheel chair to bat on the pitch. lol lol

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 03:16:19 

In reply to Trex

lol lol
Shiv was done?.looked bad against a good SA attack. Looked worse against a very average england team.
The ethnic cleansing thing is a constant with people like jeremy for who race is the be all and end all. Jeremy would not even consider that 4 other west indian stars were pushed out same time as sarwan: dj bravo, gayle, fidel edwards and jerome taylor. Chanders only stayed because he rightfully threatened a lawsuit against the ugly man and the board. Is like when Kali's son wrote that Alvin was dropped because of race, failing to mention that Kalicharan had endured three bad series in a row and he was playing for the world's best team, with about five or six other batsmen fighting for his place. Sad man

 
Windies2017 2020-05-02 03:19:33 

In reply to Jumpstart

As if the rest of the clowns in the team looked any better... atleast the man had the runs and experience behind his name. Plus, it's not like there's always guys knocking at the door demanding a spot.

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 03:27:59 

In reply to Windies2017

Maybe. But chanderpaul was finished. Both brathwaite(who is inferior to chanders) and samuels scored hundreds on that tour. A batsman of chanders class would have been expected to perform. And as i said, he played the england tests and his last four innings yeilded single figure scores

 
Jeremy 2020-05-02 03:31:56 

In reply to Jumpstart

shiv scored the most runs in the caribbean 4 day tournament following the england tour. he should have been recalled by the west indies but they simply did not want him to break lara record. you know that.

 
Windies2017 2020-05-02 03:35:29 

In reply to Jumpstart

At the very least, they should have let the Tiger get the runs record but clearly they had other ideas.

 
Trex 2020-05-02 03:36:04 

And as i said, he played the england tests and his last four innings yeilded single figure scores


You don't understand...Shiv supporters only care about Shiv. They don't care about him having to be selected based on merit.

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 03:37:00 

In reply to Jeremy

Dude you know that the four day tournanent is no measure of preparedness for international cricket. Devon smith has dominated 4 day cricket for close to two decades and turned out to be totally ill prepared for international cricket man. The quality is piss poor. Would you have prefered that Shiv Chanderpaul, the last in a line of great west indian batsmen(from Headley to himself), top the four day chart, and then go out to play against starc, hazlewood, pattinson and co, one of the stongest bowling attacks to hit our shores? For what? More punishment? If he struggled to make runs versus anderson and stokes, there was no way he was making runs versus the trio i just mentioned

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 03:39:31 

In reply to Windies2017

Hoss tiger had four innings to get the runs....two in grenada and two in barbados.....and he could not make it past ten in any of those innings

 
Trex 2020-05-02 03:41:23 

In reply to Jeremy

There is a reason why there is over 40 cricket in Jamaica. To let the old timers play some cricket without being threatened by playing against younger players. Shiv's eye sight and reflexes were gone long time before he was dropped. I remember seeing him get hit down at Sabina from tired Brett Lee bouncer.

Let Shiv retire in peace. He had a successful career. Was not the most exciting batsman to watch but was a good middle order batsman.

SHiv could have broken the record if only Shiv had shielded the tail more often.

wink

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 03:42:04 

In reply to Jeremy

Lara? The same dude they hounded out of cricket.....you have got to be kidding

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 03:45:38 

In reply to Trex

Exactly.....putting tiger to face starc(who frequently bowls over 150kph) and pattinson could have been dangerous. I remember the build up to the first test. Guyanese started to cry race and they brought in Chandrika who was far beneath international quality to play. Result was a pair of ducks on debut. The thing is, Lara retired(or was pushed out)at or very near his best. His third to last innings was a double hundred andthe innings before that yielded a hundred. Walsh also retired close to his best, he was still taking the bulk of the wickets. So too did ambrose. But shiv, any neutral observer would could see the manwas spent

 
Jeremy 2020-05-02 03:47:12 

In reply to Jumpstart

west indies played zimbabwe and bangladesh following the england tour.

shiv would have average over 100 on these 2 teams.

did you know that darren bravo was terrible against england too but then he was the highest runs scorer against zim and bangla.

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 03:53:24 

In reply to Jeremy

Bravo actually made the highest score of the successful chase in the final test....82. Blackwood made 47. And we never played bangla or zim in 2015. We played Australia a few weeks after the england series.....and we were beaten badly in both tests. I dont think any reached day five.

The final test of the england series. Knock yourself out with facts
Link Text
Also the West indies cricket season both home and away for 2015
Link Text

 
Onionman0 2020-05-02 06:39:10 

Both had their moments.....Gayle triple century,South Africa series in South Africa,New Zealand in New Zealand.....Sarwan match winning century against Australia, match against Sri Lanka in difficult pitch...... due to longevity Gayle had more impact .....but both left a legacy for next generation cricketers not much to cherish....their fitness,game awareness, attitude off the field.....were something a young cricketer should avoid....

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 06:49:45 

In reply to Onionman0

Totally agree brother

 
Runs 2020-05-02 13:02:51 

Is that even worth debating, one is a leadfeet slugger and the other a correct, stylish batsman.

 
Ewart 2020-05-02 13:48:01 

In reply to Runs

...one is a leadfeet slugger and the other a correct, stylish batsman.


Thanks for the opening Runs. I will use it!

razz

That quotation is a popularly held but shallow belief which requires analysis.

Footwork is the foundation of good batsmanship. That Gayle has a "leadfoot" is demonstrably true. But he has taken that shortcoming, applied other strengths, and made himself a better batsman than most cricketers.

"Leadfoot" Gayle parlays his gym work and strength into powerful shots that are the envy of most other cricketers because they cannot make them.

Gayle's weakness is his approach to the rising fast ball that is pitched up on the off-stump and moving away in the uncertain corridor.

But that is also Lara's weakness! He has got out there quite often. Indeed, it seems to me that left-handers show more weakness to that ball than right-handers.

Now for Sarwan.

Right-hander Sarwan is an elegant batsman of the classic mould. His footwork is excellent and I lobe to watch when he is batting. I also thought that on the few occasions when he captained the West Indies he did very well.

But Sarwan's weakness is in fact his footwork! His faulty footwork to the ball just outside the off stump.

Far too often he gets out because, having put his left foot forward, he does not get behind the ball or on top of it but plays with a slant bat.

The result, so many times, is that he gets an inside edge, and drags the ball on to his wicket. Gayle, on the other hand, complete with his leadfoot, does not always have to get behind the ball, especially those he dispatches over backward point, midoff, long-off, long-on, cover and square-leg.

And so we have to use not only statistics (in which Gayle is superior) but batting techniques (in which Gayle is superior) to assess the better batsman.

Which is what this thread is about.

Right?

//

 
Runs 2020-05-02 14:04:20 

Gayle’s approach with his unconventional technique was to slash, heave and hoist early with the hope that he will be successful and make the bowlers lose control, line and length so to speak. I would say with all things considered he had modest success which shows in his stats. Sarwan on the other hand approached batting correctly as per the pundits, playing each ball on it’s merit, he also had I would say good success with it.

I maintain Gayle is a prodigy with good hand eye coordination but will never be the favorite model used for any batting coach.
A one off success story so to speak.

 
Walco 2020-05-02 14:08:50 

In reply to Jumpstart
Jumpy boy yuh special. Yuh calling out people for playing the race card while you yourself engaging in infantile (non-adult and rather Trumpian) behavior calling someone "ugly man" smile

 
Raggs 2020-05-02 14:10:44 

two things I remember about Sarwan his ability to turn over the strike with easy might and those hook shots which were gift wrapped.

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 15:08:31 

In reply to Walco

What race have to do with that.......otis not good looking. And he has an an atitude as bad as his looks. If he had a positive effect on the team, i would have never called himnthat. But he brought nothing but autocracy and atitude.

In reply to ewart
Gayle weakness is the moving ball.....which is why most of his runs come on hard shiny wickets. As i said , i have seen gayle bring himself out at no.6 so that he wouldn't have to face chaminda vaas. It is also the reason he barely has 2nd inning centuriesm because most pitches are abrasive, and by the third innings of the match, its much more difficult yo bst than jn the first, as the ball is reversing.

Secondly, after 2004, specifically in the WI, i do not recall lara being dixmissed by the short ball. Sure Harmison had him hopping, but in 2004 and 2005, harmison had everybody hopping, including cutting ricky ponting, who was the best player of short pitched bowling of the era. I have seen lara hook bouncers at 93mph from brett lee(who has a better strike rate than akram and hit a lot more people) for four. Allyuh just following michael hokdjng and his nonsense

 
Walco 2020-05-02 15:19:43 

In reply to Jumpstart

Never said race had anything to do with it. Unless, of course, you think he is ugly because of his African features. In my experience only childish and immature people like Donald Trump make fun of the way other people look. Apparently Ottis mash you corn in the past and you still carrying feelings ...

 
Walco 2020-05-02 15:21:50 

In reply to Jumpstart

Gayle weakness is the moving ball.....which is why most of his runs come on hard shiny wickets.

Are you referring here to the swinging ball or the seaming ball?

 
nitro 2020-05-02 15:23:01 

In reply to Trinidave

Sarwan, by a mile

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 15:34:16 

In reply to Walco

Both, which is why i mentioned the abrasiveness of the pitch, which not only causes seam movement, but aids in reverse swing. Kensington oval is a fine example of how these principles work which is why most teams chasing on it lose

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 15:36:15 

In reply to Walco

Steupps. Viv has african features and he was one of the best looking cricketers of the 80s. If the man is ugly he's ugly. Samuels refered to Roland Holder as smooth and ugly and he is clearly of African descent......as am I
Probably you're the man with prejudice. Are you saying that all african features are unattractive?

 
imusic 2020-05-02 15:42:34 

In reply to Runs

Gayle’s approach with his unconventional technique was to slash, heave and hoist early with the hope that he will be successful and make the bowlers lose control, line and length so to speak. I would say with all things considered he had modest success which shows in his stats. Sarwan on the other hand approached batting correctly as per the pundits, playing each ball on it’s merit, he also had I would say good success with it.

So why do you deem Gayle’s 43 plus test batting average to be “modest success”, but Sarwan’s test batting average of 40.01 to be “good success”?

 
Trex 2020-05-02 15:55:25 

In reply to imusic

I am certain Runs will say that Sarwan's top score of 291 was also "good success" while Gayles triple centuries were "modest success".. lol

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 16:00:59 

In reply to imusic

Yeah i would not exactly say good success. Someone as technically correct as Sarwan should have been averaging over 50. 40 is barely acceptable. The reason i would put sarwan slightly ahead though, would be his ability to overcome difficult conditions. As i said, his innings in QPO was a masterpiece versus SL ansd specifically vaas and murali

 
Dukes 2020-05-02 16:19:34 

In reply to imusic

Predictably,the Guyanese say that Sarwan is the better batsman and the Jamaicans say that Gayle is the better batsman.Similarly the Guyanese say that Kallicharran is the better batsman and the Jamaicans say that Rowe is the better batsman.People will use all sorts of statistics and reasons but the suspicion is always going to be there that the bottom line is that they are biased for their countrymen.
My question to you as a presumably neutral observer is what is your opinion and more importantly WHY? WHO IS THE BETTER TEST BATSMAN?

 
FuzzyWuzzy 2020-05-02 16:29:44 

In reply to Dukes

All things being equal the batsman with the better record is the better batsman.


Any other measure is subjective and depends on our own definition of a good batsman.

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 16:35:30 

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

No.... Greg chappell has better stats than Viv and nobody considers him a better batsman than viv

 
Dukes 2020-05-02 16:46:20 

In reply to Jumpstart

More poignant is the fact that Kenny Barrington has better stats than Garry Sobers and NOT EVEN FUZZY WOULD SAY HE IS A BETTER BATSMAN THAN GARRY.

Actually I withdraw the above,Fuzzy does think that Kenny is better than Garry!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

 
FuzzyWuzzy 2020-05-02 16:46:30 

In reply to Jumpstart

considers
Exactly. that word counted subjectivity

 
Walco 2020-05-02 16:49:48 

In reply to Jumpstart

Steupps. Viv has african features and he was one of the best looking cricketers of the 80s. If the man is ugly he's ugly.

Would you describe Ambrose as handsome or ugly?

 
FuzzyWuzzy 2020-05-02 16:49:51 

In reply to Dukes

You too are using the subjective judgment and that's fair but it is not an objective measure.


As I said all things being equal...there never are. That's why we have to rely on our subjectivity thus there is no clear winner.

big grin big grin big grin big grin big grin

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 17:40:54 

In reply to Walco
No. Not at all. Ambrose may not have been as good looking as viv or clive or lara(all black people by the way) but he wasnt ugly. Otis was ugly just as Matthew Hoggard has a face like a hog.

Otis
Link Text

Curtly
Link Text

Hoggard
Link Text

 
Dukes 2020-05-02 18:08:26 

In reply to Jumpstart

Why are men discussing whether other men are good looking????

 
methodic 2020-05-02 18:14:59 

before Umar Gull broke his foot and after Fernando struck him him in the head, Brett Lee struck Sarwan in his midrib/chest area with an iron ball on a West Indies tour of Australia. At that point the threat of Sarwan being a great batsman ended. Before that Sarwan had a fearless, cavalier, dominating approach to playing fast bowlers that peaked in the World cup held in South Africa. In that world cup Sarwan emerged with a spirit that rivaled that of the great Viv. However, as he started to attempt to climb the rungs of the ladder of batting immortality, he was knocked back by Fernando's bouncer, then that spirit was killed by Bret Lee's blow and his career was buried with Gull's yorker.
In that short period where the dream flourished before his plunder met violent resistance and fantasy met reality, he was labeled among the best finishers in the shorter version of the game and was as exciting to watch as anyone.

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 18:22:01 

In reply to Dukes

lol lol lol
Walco started it

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 18:26:14 

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

Well the judgement of the best batsman is a subjective arguement. It is determined by people and people have biases. The greatest batsman is determined by a general consensus

Statistically, Ali Daei of Iran has more international goals to his name than Edson Arantes do Nascimiento(Pele)....is he a better player?

 
Dukes 2020-05-02 18:32:42 

In reply to methodic

This is in 2009

 
Trinidave 2020-05-02 18:39:43 

In reply to Raggs

Gayle is the better batsman. If you count odi and t20 cricket. He has and making a bigger impact on cricket than Sarwan. In fact he change the game. T20 booklet for batting was written off the blade of his bat....fact
Can't use one format to win that argument.


TriniD talking Test cricket. Gayle is de GOAT in T20s, and his ODI batting is also spectacular, which is why he's a GREAT limited overs batsman.

TriniD talking Test batting, where the bowling does more, where batting against different types of bowling is required, and more situational batting is required. Sarwan exceeds Gayle in dat respect, and has more signature innings dat propelled de WI to victory.


One more ting tuh note is dat TriniD believes dat Gayle's success in Test cricket is one of de reasons he has excelled in T20s. Having said all dat, Sarwan was better, not by much. But in situations in which you are required to build an innings, which is more often the case in Test, and build partnerships, which is more often de case in Test cricket, and to combat good spin, pace with movement, Sarwan was better.

 
methodic 2020-05-02 18:50:02 

Chris Gayle is one of the smartest batsmen to don the maroon uniform in test. Gayle used an armor of shots that instilled genuine panic in the opposition; to overcome a defensive technique that made it look as if the pitch of the ball and his feet were practicing social distancing. He was found out early in his career; that is why his longevity at test level cannot be described as nothing less than brilliant especially as an opener. He had a tremendous amount of self belief and confidence. This gave him the grit to concentrate to two triple centuries and the faith to attack the best bowling in the world in a match defining way. He was also one of the first players to promote a good bank account over test legacy.

 
Walco 2020-05-02 19:01:47 

In reply to Dukes

Why are men discussing whether other men are good looking????

Good question there Dukes. Maybe you can get through to Jumpy that it was childish to refer to Ottis Gibson as ugly man. Apparently he thinks it is appropriate adult behavior.

 
Walco 2020-05-02 19:06:38 

In reply to Jumpstart

Walco started it

Kindly point me to one instance on this thread or elsewhere where I opined that anyone was handsome or ugly

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 19:15:06 

In reply to methodic

That is a quite actually brilliant analysis.

In reply to walco
Ey is de ugly man who banish half a team because he could not impose his 1970s Latin American autocracy on them. Is there a better example of infantilism? He, Cameron, Hunte and Hillaire are all fruits of the same sordid, destructive tree.

 
InHindsight 2020-05-02 19:47:00 

Purely on batting credentials I'd rather Sarwan be in my test team.

On the basis that he was more reliable and for me that was key. Gayle however like many did set up some wins. They were different players won their own merit

 
vsingh 2020-05-02 20:12:50 

In reply to imusic

Bannaz, you talking about people doing cherry picking and you cherry picking yuh self to??

 
vsingh 2020-05-02 20:16:42 

In reply to Jumpstart

De man seh Sarwan wasn't afraid of no Bowler, I just mentioned 2. Can we not have an honest conversation without being biased??

Now let me talk about Gayle, right arm over just around middle and off back of a length, swinging is a bonus.

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 20:31:51 

In reply to vsingh

I didnt say sarwan wasnt afraid of any bowler. I did say that dilhara fernando knocked Jacques Kallis out.....flat on his back....remarkably similar to sarwan's knock and and that a few balls before, lara, who averaged over 150 for the series had hid off stump detonated by a dimilar delivery....he was only fortunate to get his foot out the way or else he too would have had to be carried off the pitch.

I believe i posted the link to to fernsndo knocking out kallis? Guess he was afraid too. Its obvious you did not watch it

 
Walco 2020-05-02 20:39:01 

In reply to Jumpstart
Boy sudden yuh good yuh kno. Jumpy is Ramnarine tuh rass smile

 
Runs 2020-05-02 20:41:38 

In reply to vsingh

Glad you saw that lol

 
hubert 2020-05-02 22:27:33 

Which of the two has the better credentials to be on an All Time west Indies team in all three formats ?

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 22:43:21 

In reply to hubert

None. Cant even make a 2nd all time xi

 
Dukes 2020-05-02 22:46:47 

In reply to Jumpstart

In view of the hypothetical nature of an all time XI in all 3 formats,I would pick one GS SOBERS for all three teams!!!!!!!

 
hubert 2020-05-02 22:50:21 

In reply to Jumpstart

That's not the question. Anyway, for your edification is you are humble, Gayle exceeds Sarwan in all three formats with better averages.
And if you cannot pick GAYLE in an all Time West Indies 20/20 team you need to leave this Board ..///

Gayle's Test record is not far from Hunte,Haynes and is perhaps better than Fredericks.

Gayle as an opener has good credentials to be on a West Indies ALL time ODI team ..

The record books say so.

[b]Which of the two has the better credentials to be on an All Time west Indies team in all three formats ?
[/b]
reply

I done. //

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-02 23:35:37 

In reply to hubert

My bad...i thought be meant tests which is what i wsd refering too. Gayle would be my first pick in t20s and my third pick in odis after viv and lara

 
imusic 2020-05-02 23:47:51 

In reply to vsingh

Bannaz, you talking about people doing cherry picking and you cherry picking yuh self to??

I said had he continued to play, he likely would have ended up with a sub 40 test batting average. Sarwan’s stats support that statement.

How is that cherry picking?

 
hubert 2020-05-03 00:01:36 

In reply to Jumpstart

You read too fast
lol lol

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-03 00:03:36 

In reply to hubert

I did lol
lol lol lol

 
Dukes 2020-05-03 00:23:11 

In reply to hubert

Only 6 West Indians have scored 5,000 runs in both test and ODI's at an average of over 40 in both.
They are Greenidge and Haynes,Richards and Lara,Sarwan and Chanderpaul. Crampy averages 37 in ODI cricket.
BTW Do you know that GS Sobers averages ZERO in ODI cricket!!!LOL

Stay safe my brother.These are challenging times and CC.Com is helping us cope with this situation.Going to a Zoom party just now. LOL

 
hubert 2020-05-03 02:06:06 

Yes Sobie had his one innings Zero..can't remember if it was one ball.

Good for that six. With 10k plus ODI runs and 25 tons at 37 average for an opener...who does not get
not outs as much as middle order bats,that is massive.

Superior runs in Tests a equal number of tons and higher ave..that trumps the other guy who if he is better should have better stats in Tests
Under achiever ?
One of few to have 2 triples in Tests, one of the openers to carry his bat for a huge 150 score vs Oz...one of a few to have two Test tons in a series in OZ( and only 3 Tests at that.and over 7k Tests runs.....

Crampy's numbers pass the eye test, its not beauty or elegance that is recorded.

Can I get an amen..
Stay safe my brother. I am locked down except when I on the road most of the time LOL

 
Trinidave 2020-05-03 02:11:47 

In reply to Dukes

My question to you as a presumably neutral observer is what is your opinion and more importantly WHY? WHO IS THE BETTER TEST BATSMAN?


TriniD started dis thread, and TriniD said it is Sarwan. And it is not necessarily based on technique, which is a factor, but also because Sarwan was more capable of batting in different conditions, and in different situations. Is really not dat complicated.

 
hubert 2020-05-03 02:20:39 

In reply to Trinidave

How welll did he do in OZ..Australia that is or do you forget Lee. Sure he has not forgotten.

People can talk boy...Gayle made an score of over 250 to bat through an innings for over 7 hours vs OZ in Oz to save a
Test and prevent another whitewash ala Adams(5-0) and Shiv (3-0). He followed that ton with another to become one of few to have
two tons in a series in OZ and in only Three Tests to boot. Check the contributions of another great and better bats on two tough pitches.
Gayle although inconsistent made runs in all conditions.

Don't take my word for it..

lol

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-03 02:37:49 

In reply to hubert

Actually, we should have drawn or won that series if not for some truly attrocious umpiring by billy bowden. Widen, no lover of the West indies, described some of his decisions as baffling

 
JahJah 2020-05-03 04:32:22 

In reply to Runs

Is that even worth debating, one is a leadfeet slugger and the other a correct, stylish batsman.


So Ganga was better than Gayle after all.
lol

Y'all narrow minded nuh rass! big grin

 
Windies2017 2020-05-03 05:03:06 

In reply to JahJah

lol lol lol

 
ponderiver 2020-05-03 09:33:21 

In reply to Halliwell



Although Bradman has a better Test average, Marlon is a better batsman


how much di Icon pay yuh fuh that
big grin big grin big grin big grin

 
hubert 2020-05-03 11:24:56 

In reply to Jumpstart

I know but we all understand that most countries really do not like to see WI win much less dominate
cricket.It is one of the unwritten rules of the game
Ketch up with y'all later.
cool

 
nick2020 2020-05-03 11:39:00 

In reply to imusic

Crazy proposal for you.

Is it possible for an athlete to be more impactful but not better than another?

Finally for the purpose of test cricket of you had to teach a youngster to be Sarwan or Gayle wouldn't you pick Sarwan?

 
Runs 2020-05-03 12:01:07 

In reply to JahJah

How Ganga come in? Recheck the topic lol

 
nick2020 2020-05-03 12:56:37 

In reply to Runs

Gayle is Jamaican.
That is why lol

 
Dukes 2020-05-03 13:35:10 

In reply to hubert

You certainly can get an Amen.Your arguments are quite valid and I understand them.Similarly if someone said to me that Virender Sehwag is a better batsman than VVS Laxman I would be forced to admit that their case is a valid one.In the end I would say that just as how I say that Sarwan is a better test batsman I would say that VVS is a better test batsman despite the fact that the opener has a better test average with more triple centuries and a faster scoring rate in both cases.

 
sudden 2020-05-03 13:59:21 

In reply to Dukes

nicely done Dukes. i like the execution there big grin

 
hubert 2020-05-04 14:17:37 

In reply to Dukes

On what bases would you say that Sarwan is a better Test batsman.?

What yardstick you using..30 inches or 36 inches wink
Pin it down. Or VVS over Sehwag too ?
Pin it.
Then we can get into the Bradman- McCabe one too.

 
Dukes 2020-05-05 14:49:56 

In reply to hubert

It will be with great trepidation that I would venture in to a discussion such as this with you.Your knowledge and experience wrt the game of cricket is peerless on this board.However it would not be a black eye to come second in a discussion with you and it would be a great learning experience not only for me but the other readers on the board.I will attempt to explain my biases and thoughts on these two excellent West Indian batsmen and what I like and dislike about them as well as how I judge test batsmen.
I will do so later today.

 
CricSham 2020-05-05 15:14:04 

In reply to Dukes
Dukesy, I do like that VVS - Sehwag analogy. Not-a-man-move stroke dat!
Gwan wid yuh bad self.

 
doosra 2020-05-06 00:52:23 

if you have 1 spot in the test 11 and it was between gayle and sarwan who would you go for?

 
Jumpstart 2020-05-06 01:09:26 

In reply to doosra

Difficult. Both inconsistent. But sarwan had the technique to deal with less than ideal pitches

 
osrlive 2020-05-06 03:13:31 

In reply to TheTrail

and he wasn't afraid of any bowler. No bowler ever had the upper hand on him.


TRUE
and he wasn't afraid of any bowler.

FALSE
No bowler ever had the upper hand on him. ~ Glen McGrath early in his career; 4 consecutive ducks, infact he got replaced by Marlon Samuels in that series!!!!

But I back Ronnie over Gayle anyday in testst...................

 
Dukes 2020-05-06 19:44:40 

In reply to hubert

I first heard of Ramnaresh Sarwan in 1994 from Pat Legall,the Manager of the Guyana Under 19 team.He told me of an exciting 14 year old batsman who he felt would soon be representing both Guyana and the West Indies.I had known Pat Legall all my life as our families have had ties since the 1890's.His Grandmother and my Grandmother were best friends.

I therefore followed Sarwan's career ever since.Indeed it was also Pat Legall who just a couple years earlier had told me about Shivnarine Chanderpaul.
I was therefore not surprised when Sarwan made his first class debut for Guyana at 15 years 8 months in a rain affected match to become one of the youngest first class players in West Indies history
Indeed just a few months later at age 16 and the baby of the WI Under 19 team he made a brilliant century at Kensington in a Youth Test match between the West Indies and Pakistan.All the Aficianados of WI cricket recognized his rare talent and soon Sarwan was playing for the WI A team on tour of South Africa at the age of 17.I have been told that despite not making huge scores he batted with assurance and aplomb and looking at his scores he got a lot of 30's and batted more than 100 balls on several occasions. He became a regular for Guyana and continued to get reasonable scores with a few 50's until in 2000 at age 19 in a Presidents XI match against Zimbabwe he scored a century in each innings.He followed this up with 75 against Pakistan for another President's XI team and was selected to play the Barbados test against Pakistan.
When I heard the news I called my cousin in Jamaica who always watched the Barbados test and asked him to look out for the teenager and tell me about him.
Well Sarwan got rave reviews not only from my cousin but from none other than Ted Dexter who put pen to paper and the former England captain nick named LORD TED, waxed lyrical about the teenaged wonder boy.In fact he said that Sarwan had to potential to become a great batsman and end a career averaging 50.To make such a statement based on a single innings in retrospect seemed ridiculous but such was his stroke play against the wily Wasim Akram that it seemed feasible at the time.Over a ten year career Sarwan had some highs and did not live up to those lofty accomplishments and rather than blame certain circumstances one just has to accept the vicissitudes of life and be grateful for what turned out to be a successful test and ODI career.I will list some of the highlights of his test career as I see it.
1.105 vs Australia in the 4th Innings of the match to help WI win a historic test match scoring 418 runs' record at the time when he was aged 22.
2.Scoring 2 centuries in a test series on the fast wickets in South Africa .

3.An outstanding innings of 139 in England.

4 .107* out of a total of 194 at the Queen's Park Oval when WI were trying to save the match.

5. 102 in the 4th Innings vs Sri Lanka to help WI win a test match vs Sri Lanka and draw the series.

6. Three centuries in 4 test match series vs England((1 match was abandoned after 10 balls) including 291 and averaging over 100,one of only 5 WI batsmen to do that without the benefit of not outs.( The others are Weekes,Richards,Sobers and Lara)

7. Four centuries in the 4th Innings of a test match.Only 1 person has scored more 4th Innings centuries-Younis Khan.
Sarwan batted mainly at the pivotal number 3 position where he scored 14 centuries in 100 innings for a total of 4,197 runs at an average of 43.27.
He showed situational awareness and solid defense when it was needed.He showed that when occupation of the crease was needed he could do it but when quick runs were required he was up to that task too.
That he did all this while having back problems from very early on in his test career is commendable and one can only wish him good luck in his post cricket career.

GO DEH MAS RONNIE. GOOD LUCK

 
hubert 2020-05-07 13:47:02 

In reply to Dukes

Truly impressive..Expected no less from you my friend.
Those are seven points of lights.I will not list Gayle's ..He has less ,perhaps.
So Sarwan has done things that even Bradman did not do.
So by what metric do you account for Gayle's better average and being inferior to Sarwan as Test batsman.. ?

Gayle has certainly done many things that even Sarwan and other very greats have not done.
But I would appreciate you making that comparison of Gayle's highlights ,firsts and inclusion in a very unique club.

Only fair, you did a good job for Sarwan,do the same for Gayle ..he gotta have his 7 points of light too and no need for a preamble.
Maybe it could come down to shot execution who could ones that the other could not.Or who was better at facing Fire.
lol

 
Dukes 2020-05-07 14:58:12 

In reply to hubert


So by what metric do you account for Gayle's better average and being inferior to Sarwan as Test batsman.. ?


If you look at Sarwan's career you will clearly see that after the England "winter" tour in 2009 his batting fell of dramatically.Clearly his head was affected by the St. Lucian duo and Otis and more particularly the CEO. Even his "friend" Crampy said that his head was so messed up, he forgot how to bat.How could a man score 3 centuries in 4 test matches against England end up being unable to reach double figures consistently against inferior teams.His test average dropped from 42.32 to 40.01 in his last 5 test matches.
Gayle's test average was below 40 for 78 of his 103 test matches.His test average reached 40 for the first time when he scored 317 vs South Africa in his 50th test match and immediately went back below 40 and stayed there for another 25 test matches.Test matches 76,77 and 78 it was above 40 and 80 as well.Finally for the last 20 test matches of his career it remained above 40.
Sarwan's career had a different trajectory and it was above 40 early for 4 tests and then from test 46-58,69,71,72,73 and 75-87 when his career ended.
For comparison if you look at Kanhai and Nurse.They both averaged 47 in the end but their careers tell a completely different picture.Nurse ended his career in a blaze of glory and lifted his career average from 39 to 47 in his last 4 test matches.

I think you would be much better at chronicling Gayle's 7 points of light in test cricket but I will give you my top 3

1.Scoring 165* out of 317 to help WI save a test match and becoming one of the few WI opening batsmen to carry his bat in a completed test innings.I only remember Sir Frank doing that.

2.Scoring 2 centuries in a 3 test series in South Africa

3.Scoring 2 triple centuries, one away from home

 
hubert 2020-05-07 15:48:26 

In reply to Dukes

Now the first paragraph give answers. Clearly something went south. Well about trajectory...Sarwan averaged only 9 in his first series in OZ 2000-2001 and the following home series against South Africa was a little better when even the one called 'Icon' out did him in OZ in his debut series
when Sarwan had to be hidden from Lee .Icon also did better in said series.

That said, being one of the three youngest players toplay FC cricket in the Caribbean, Sarwan was earmarked for great things.No so Gayle.
Sarwan also was the beneficiary of playing in the middle order(Lara mostly at 3 and Chanderpaul lower, two of the greatest to pad up although
many do not respect Chanders who I regard as the greatest from Guyana with all due respect for one 'Lal', Rohan Kanhai.

I have not looked at the statistical breakdown of Sarwan and Gayle..I long since gave up on charting statistical records, but I don't think Sarwan made all
of his Tons at #3. Anyhow runs is runs.

What I wanted to elicit from you and others that tout Sarwan as the better batsman is not only average or trajectory or age differences but BATTING.
Who dominated bowlers better, who played spin/fiery pace better,who was better in overseas matches, whom did opponents in any format feared most.
I was a bit surprised that as opener with no wonderful long berm alliance and partner, that Gayle even averaged 40 given that openers always have
fewer benefits from ' not outs' as table setters for the team..( Worrel,Hunte carried their bats, and I think Haynes and Brathwaite may have too.).

You pointed three lights for Gayle...The triple in Sri Lanka was made in a spin country and is the only triple made by a West Indies player,overseas,so I guess, he was like Viv not not too dusty against the art as most claim .

Gayle was no Viv who dominated bowlers as no one else did,but he was far superior to Sarwan in that respect, and he did so in all formats ,just as Viv did
in Tests and ODI.How many times did Gayle manners fiery stuff in a single over scoring 12-20 or more in Tests, much less ODI ? I will not include Lick it.
And what shot he could not play ? I have seen him play a few that Sarwan could not or did not dare attempt such as blasting the first ball of an innings for six off a spinner..much like blasting Lee back over his six for a monstrous six in ODI
.
That speaks to batting.He plays the same way (like Vv) in Tests as well as other forms.
Sarwan my look more classical but making runs is not a beauty contest.
Gayle is also in a select group of Headley,Sobers,Kanhai,Gomes, Butcher and Lloyd, whom I can recall to make two tons in a series in OZ..Gayle did so in 3 Tests,the others in 5 or 6Test series. Think of the other greats who never did that.

I think the only tough country that he has not made a Ton is in Pakistan..I could be wrong but when you can ton up and multiple times too in OZ you
are up there.
Yes, Sarwan had his help in the middle as in addition to Lara and Chanders,there was Hooper and even Icon.Gayle had no such luxury for company.

Let me end it this way,there is a reeason for his superior ave and its not by coming on late in his career,it has more to do with having big successes and
less catostrophic failures than Sarwan; For his talent Sarwan underachieved much like Hooper and Sagga Icon Samuels.
In the final analysis it is not what one is touted to become..(Ave 50 ala Dexter's kiss of failure) but what one does ,...no wouda,couda .
That's why i love track and field and golf. One cannot question Bolt or Nicklaus's places...yet..they achieved on and by their own.

There is no imperical evidence that Sarwan is a better batsman than Gayle. On the matter of common measure to all batsmen,averages,Gayle has a
better argument.
The only thing Sarwan has done that surpasses Gayle is that Number 6 light. (Icon won Wisden cricketer for his series in England so # 3 light
does not look so bright and that is no disrespect to either man.
Has Gayle done some that Sarwan has not, ?


I done.

 
imusic 2020-05-07 16:10:11 

In reply to nick2020

Is it possible for an athlete to be more impactful but not better than another?


Yes. Doesn’t necessarily apply in this case however.

Finally for the purpose of test cricket of you had to teach a youngster to be Sarwan or Gayle wouldn't you pick Sarwan


I would teach that youngster to watch and learn from both and then encourage the youngster to be his best self

 
Dukes 2020-05-07 17:02:57 

In reply to hubert

but I don't think Sarwan made all
of his Tons at #3.


Sarwan scored 14 of his 15 tons batting at # 3.
He batted at # 3 100 times with 3 not outs and scored 14 centuries and 18 half-centuries for a total of 4,197 runs at an average of 43.27 and a highest score of 291.
Sarwan had to be hidden from Lee

He ended up scoring 2 centuries 105 and 128 against Lee,both in Antigua and both in the 4th innings of a test match.The first one, the WI won and the second they drew.Note the 128 was at the Vivian Richards ground while the first was at the recreation Ground.
Vaas's dominance of Gayle was never countered in test cricket over 3 series.They played 7 test matches against each other and Vaas dismissed him on 7 occasions all for single figures.Five times for a duck and also for 1 and 9.
In their first encounter in their 3rd series as adversaries Vaas dismissed him for a duck and in the second innings Gayle batted at # 6.I have no problem with your conclusion as I find it reasonable but as I said before I respectfully disagree.No doubt in my mind that like his countryman Sir Carl and his contemporary the Icon they underachieved in looking at their ability.I would add, that in my opinion Gayle overachieved and for that he deserves high praise.Methinks we have exhausted this debate snd neither of us have significantly changed our views.In both the long and short term it is largely academic and borne out of this dreaded confinement.We can now close the book on this but I am anxious to hear your views on Bill Ponsford who has a statue at the MCG

 
ponderiver 2020-05-07 17:13:29 

Only West Indians will remember Sarwan everyone will remember Gayle

 
imusic 2020-05-07 17:18:59 

I’m enjoying the calisthenics on display

Some people well creative and flexible cool

 
Dukes 2020-05-07 21:31:13 

In reply to ponderiver

I do not think there will be any dispute about that.

 
vsingh 2020-05-07 22:06:32 

In reply to ponderiver

Manuf Patel might always remember Sarwan. He's from India lol lol

And the whole Australian Cricket team from that 418 run chase.

 
hubert 2020-05-08 03:33:10 

In reply to Dukes

We will always disagree on this on that we can agree. .The book says Gayle has a higher avergae and run everywhere.True Vaass was his nemesis.Most batsmewn have one but even at that Gayle faced better, Bradman had his Bedser and and such Atherton his Ambrose..etc.
Making big scores against quality especially in enemy's back yard does not come lightly..plenty weight.
On Ponsford..he was the first to score two quadruple tons in FC level and was seen in Australia as the superior to Bradman in terms of style and substance.So
too was McCabe and definitely Archie Jackson who came up the same time as the Don and the real stylist. ]Unfortunately he died very young..
Ponsford wielded a big bat referred to as big bertha..and his thirst for runs carried to the Test area.
When The Don failed and was dropped after his frst Test,the talk continued about Ponsford as even the Don's stance was critized..elegant he was not.
But he soon put paid to his distractors and went on to torment everyone he played against.He left Ponsford and all others in his wakeHd proved by his runs and average that he was out of this world in his own way because he dominated bowlers.
Viv Richards is of that same mold..does not have to look orthodox or pretty..but demonstrated what batting is all about,not accommodating to bowlers but
dominating them..Gayle too is of that mold..

 
hubert 2020-05-08 11:25:26 

BTW thanks for the repartee.Its good to have sane discussions as was common once upon a time on this forum
Nice Gayle like knock on your part smile

 
Ewart 2020-05-08 11:38:28 

In reply to hubert


Love it!


big grin big grin big grin


//

 
Trinidave 2020-05-10 01:37:36 

In reply to ponderiver

Only West Indians will remember Sarwan everyone will remember Gayle


Universe Boss is de GOAT in T20s and a great in ODIs. And he will be remembered for dat.

Pollard who is NOT in Gayle's class as ah T20 but still a great asset on any T20 team, ALSO will be remembered more dan Sarwan, just because of the popularity of T20s.

Sarwan is still greater in Test (in TriniD's opinion) because of his ability to bat in ah variety of challenging situations, which is unique to Test cricket.

 
imusic 2020-05-10 21:49:08 

In reply to Trinidave

Sarwan is still greater in Test (in TriniD's opinion) because of his ability to bat in ah variety of challenging situations, which is unique to Test cricket

What’s more challenging than opening the batting? Would Sarwan have had similar success had he opened the batting? In any format of the game.

 
Dukes 2020-05-10 22:29:55 

In reply to imusic

I will tell you what is more challenging than opening the batting.It is coming in with the score on 5 for 1 with the bowlers tails up and ultra attacking fields.

lol lol lol lol

 
Trinidave 2020-05-11 23:01:11 

In reply to Dukes

I will tell you what is more challenging than opening the batting.It is coming in with the score on 5 for 1 with the bowlers tails up and ultra attacking fields.


Which he did routinely. big grin big grin big grin

 
imusic 2020-05-11 23:29:28 

In reply to Dukes

So how is it more challenging than opening? Wouldn’t there be an opener at the other end? And wouldn’t that opener more than likely be Chris Gayle?

And if so, how did Gayle end up with a higher test batting average?

 
Dukes 2020-05-12 00:45:01 

In reply to imusic

And if so, how did Gayle end up with a higher test batting average?


The same way Barrington ended up with a better test average than Sobers and Shiv than Viv..

 
imusic 2020-05-12 00:59:23 

In reply to Dukes

Show the board how. Don’t just come with some glib response.

 
Dukes 2020-05-12 01:28:15 

In reply to imusic

How do I show how someone ends up with a better test average than someone else?

 
imusic 2020-05-12 01:50:59 

In reply to Dukes

You made the statement about Barringron. Not me

 
Chrissy 2020-05-12 13:03:58 

In reply to Seechy

Ronnie was the better Test batsman. Universe Boss has had the overall greater impact.


THIS