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Should Rohan Kanhai have been captain for longer

 
Barry 2020-05-09 13:44:47 

I think so. That damn Burnham and cry baby Lloyd... cool

 
XDFIX 2020-05-09 14:04:39 

In reply to Barry


Kanhai was short-changed even as a coach!

 
FuzzyWuzzy 2020-05-09 14:51:51 

In reply to Barry

Wasn't he already 38 or 39 when he became captain?

 
Barry 2020-05-09 15:47:14 

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

How old is Gayle? Brian Close? big grin

 
Barry 2020-05-09 15:50:44 

Link Text

 
Barry 2020-05-09 15:54:10 

In reply to XDFIX

I hear you- have you outed the benjamins and Arthurton and their leader Ritchie who allowed such insolence? The diaspora know nothing at all- where is jumpstart, kicker of chairs, and the greatest one here twisted

 
Norm 2020-05-10 01:49:35 

In reply to Barry

That damn Burnham and cry baby Lloyd...

That's a big story all by itself, one that can easily start another race war on this MB! smile

Kanhai did not seem to really care whether he was captain or not, but he handled the job well when given it. In hindsight, he could have been given the captaincy earlier. He was already at the end of his career, however, and plenty of young and high quality WI batsmen were emerging to replace him. So, he timed his departure well - quietly, and without controversy, along with Garry at QPO.

 
Dukes 2020-05-10 02:43:24 

In reply to Norm

That's a big story all by itself, one that can easily start another race war on this MB!

You do not realize that was his intention????

 
Norm 2020-05-10 03:15:30 

In reply to Dukes

You do not realize that was his intention????

It was my subtle way of steering things away from trouble and keeping the peace.

 
Barry 2020-05-10 04:29:18 

In reply to Dukes

It was not my intention- Kanhai’s race is incidental. Fairness and quality are the main criteria here- if you think that factor is critical, then you are influenced by it. Similar protocols have been developed and explored for employment... rolleyes

 
Barry 2020-05-10 04:37:25 

In reply to Norm

Let’s keep the peace and dispassionately consider was this a factor when Burnham threw in his support and if it was, must we never now consider it as most of us move toward integrated multicultural societies? I am speaking to two knowledgeable people here- if you can’t separate it, who can? When Sandra Day wrote the Grutter v. Bollinger and Gratz v. Bollinger (2003) decision, she could dispassionately identify such principles- since then we have developed models for decision making in the Western world- will they ever be applied in the Caribbean? evil

 
Barry 2020-05-10 04:40:17 

Finally Rohan belongs to the entire Caribbean not to some group or mad divided country- I am so hurt.... rolleyes

 
Dukes 2020-05-10 04:40:49 

In reply to Barry

You have put forward absolutely no reasons or evidence that Kanhai should have gone to India in the fall of 1974 or that he should have been made captain before 1973.Until and unless you do so my interpretation of your motives remain valid and a reasonable interpretation of what you are up to.

 
granite 2020-05-10 09:47:04 

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy
Stop showing your colours,you have bad mouthed R.Kanhai at every turn,why so much hate for one of the most exciting batsman to play for the WI.

 
Barry 2020-05-10 09:49:52 

In reply to Dukes

I will tell you the truth-He came to mind while I watched him. I reviewed his tapes and found he moved his feet delightfully. I do not care what you think of my motives, Sir. Without hurting you, you are nobody to me. A hard shit elicits more intense feelings. I do not care if he is Indo-Guyanese (Indian Guyanese). I care that he is a wonderful West Indian. I get confused sometimes- one of the Dukes is a retired doctor. If you are he, shame on you. Either way such thoughts are despicable. confused

 
Barry 2020-05-10 09:54:15 

More than of Indian descent, more than Guyanese; he was ours
Link Text smile

 
Barry 2020-05-10 10:07:22 

Read a boy, a man, and a game about Rohan-,Stanton Sheogobind
Link Text big grin

 
Barry 2020-05-10 10:11:26 


So, back to Rohan Kanhai. The Indian batsman, Sunil Gavaskar, said that Kanhai was the greatest batsman he had ever seen, and he was so impressed, even besotted, by Kanhai that he called his own son Rohan. The England opener Dennis Amiss agreed. He played for years with Kanhai for Warwickshire. So he knew what he was talking about. Kanhai was marvellous on bad pitches – and these were still the days of uncovered wickets. Amiss recalled two centuries in particular: one against Derek Underwood on a viciously turning wicket, the kind of pitch on which Underwood bowling left-arm spin at near medium pace could be all but unplayable, the other at Derby on a bumping pitch against two England fast bowlers, Alan Ward and Harold Rhodes. In both these matches, everyone else was at a loss; Kanhai was in command. “I stood at the other end many times, completely in awe of him,” Amiss said – this from a man who himself scored a hundred first-class centuries and had a Test average of 46.

Link Text

 
Barry 2020-05-10 13:40:18 

Race this, race that.... everything is down to base principles in that country- what you look like, not what you are. I see God in every face.
confused

 
CricSham 2020-05-10 14:41:28 

In reply to Barry
Absolutely, and without a shadow of a doubt! He earned it. Kanhai took over the captaincy, went to England and inflicted one of the largest defeat on England at Lords. He recaptured the Wisden trophy. Prior to that West Indies had gone some 20 test matches without a single win.
It was never clear why he was replaced for the tour to India but he probably would’ve loved the opportunity to lead the West Indies back to India the home of his ancestry.
I am not one for conspiracy theories. Barry, you are correct sometimes the historical specter of racism in the Caribbean can cloud issues that may have absolutely nothing to do with race. It is best to look at things from a philosophical point of view: one man’s misfortune is another man’s good fortune.

 
Dukes 2020-05-10 15:00:39 

In reply to Barry

1.You made a statement that Kanhai's tenure as West Indies captain was too short.

2.You have refused to tell us when he should have been made captain.Should he have been made captain sooner or should he have continued after he was relieved of the captaincy.

3.You are now trying to make this about Kanhai being respected as one of the greatest batsmen we have ever produced.

4.Even a superficial review of this message board would reveal the passionate advocacy I made about Kanhai's batsmanship.

5.In the 1974 home series against England both Sobers age 37(100 runs average 20) and Kanhai age38(157 runs average 26) were clearly past their best and the selectors decided to bring in new talent for the Indian tour.The replacements for Sobers and Kanhai were Viv Richards and Gordon Greenidge.Now you might feel that was a mistake and if so I am sure we would like to hear your rationale.

6 Now if you feel that Kanhai should have been made captain before the Australian tour of 1973 then remember that Kanhai missed the 1972 tour by New Zealand due to a knee injury so you would be advocating that he be made captain in 1971 against India.

OVER TO YOU!!!!!!!!

 
CricSham 2020-05-10 15:24:22 

In reply to Dukes
Dukes, nuff respect Sir!
You referenced the 1974 series against England, and that obligates me to share a few reflections on that series. This is what Wisden wrote in reference to that series:
The following year when England toured the Caribbean the weakness in the bowling attack became quite evident. For England to have drawn the series in West Indies was a surprise, a pleasant one, but not an altogether just one. The West Indies had first innings leads in excess of two hundred in each of the first three Tests. In the fifth test at Port of Spain, the West Indies squandered a golden opportunity to win the game and take the series 2-0. Chasing a paltry 227 for victory and with a batting line up that included Fredericks, Greenidge, Kallicharan, Rowe, Kanhai, Lloyd and Sobers, the team fell short by 26 runs.
Can one, really, blame the captain for this? Despite the loss, West Indies retained the Wisden Trophy.

PS: It's not that I have such a great memory. big grin big grin I had written a piece in 2003 for Cricket International (First Kanhai, Now Hooper) lamenting the misfortunes of Guyanese and the WI captaincy after Hooper was sacked as captain.

 
Barry 2020-05-10 15:26:45 

In reply to Dukes

Much better- I would hate to drop Garry but by 1972/1973 he was struggling. I would have given Kanhai another year. Jeff and Dennis would have removed him. It’s just that we didn’t get the best of him and Burnham had no right to enter the conversation. Now for the evidence.

 
Barry 2020-05-10 15:36:04 

The evidence
As in evidence based medicine I look for the extent of the decline - 1973 onward and I find that to be less than Sarwan, much less than Richardson and much less than Gordon Greenidge, I conclude that his seeming decline in scores was not the reason for taking away the captaincy.

 
Barry 2020-05-10 15:43:08 

Kanhai batting performance over time
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Ritchie Richardson
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Viv Richards
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I further argue tha Richards should have been removed from captain since ...
rolleyes

 
Barry 2020-05-10 15:45:54 

I know that Dukes is a great man; however, I posit that feelings and perceptions trump data every time razz

 
Dukes 2020-05-10 15:50:53 

In reply to CricSham

My friend, thank you for that piece.I have not criticized Rohan's captaincy.I merely laid out the facts.

When I was getting worked up about just how good Kanhai was,I pointed out that after his very first series in England in 1957 when he averaged in the 20's,he never averaged in the 20's until his last series.In this particular case wrt this thread and to illustrate the point I made in # 6 that it was not just Kanhai who was dropped but Sobers and the rationale used to bring in Greenidge and Richards was clearly rooted in their performances in English County Cricket in the summer of 1974.Now ,I went to England to study in the summer of 1974 so I quickly found out just how highly skilled Greenidge and Richards and indeed Andy Roberts were.Those three were the new stars of WI cricket in the making.Subsequent events clearly demonstrate the wisdom of that investment in these three made by the WICB at that time.
The reality was that if Sobers and Kanhai were not dropped, then Richards and Greenidge could not have toured India in the Fall of 1974.

 
FuzzyWuzzy 2020-05-10 15:57:14 

In reply to Dukes

I thought Sobers retired?

 
Dukes 2020-05-10 16:10:10 

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

I assumed he was dropped because he was initially selected for the World Cup in 1975 but due to injury he was replaced by Kanhai.

 
Dukes 2020-05-10 16:14:40 

In reply to Barry

I know that Dukes is a great man;


I showed that to my First Lady and it was met with a long suck teeth


I posit that feelings and perceptions trump data every time


You might say that as a joke and it may be true when talking about cricket but in the time of a Pandemic it can and has cost people their lives!!!!!

 
CricSham 2020-05-10 16:21:50 

In reply to Dukes

Yes Dukes, the arrival of Viv, Gordon, Andy certainly complicated the equation. Still, the decision on the captaincy was questionable, but it has since been assuaged with Lloyd's subsequent success.
Could Kanhai have done same? Who knows?
By the way Dukes, perhaps you can throw some light on this. I have heard repeatedly, though never been able to confirm it, that Sobers has never officially retired???

BTW: The misses right fuh suck she teeth
big grin

 
Dukes 2020-05-10 16:38:54 

In reply to CricSham

As I pointed out,I made assumptions that may not have been correct.Fuzzy has said that he thought Sobers retired, so somebody else will have to step forward with definitive proof one way or the other.

On another matter while Viv retired from test cricket in 1991, he did express his keen desire to participate in the 1992 World Cup.However the new captain Richie did not feel that the presence of Richards in the team would be helpful and communicated his uneasiness with Viv being in the team to the Chairman of the selectors, Jackie Hendriks.This was the cause of some friction between the two which hopefully has dissipated a long time ago.

 
Barry 2020-05-10 16:45:22 

In reply to Dukes

My lady never sucks her teeth... cool
All the funding agencies insist that Caribbean people and their politicians must be led by data and not feelings or hypotheticals... if Viv had led Lara play instead of blocking him with he bam bam, then his father would have seen paradise and the aura of the boy would have been strengthened- instead that bitch carried the boy around like a tick, he sucked the blood of anticipation and hope out of Brian’s bottom and vomited on is asoulless half man that yearned for succor - to be met by the insanity of Tim Hector. May that never happen again.

Thank you Kanhai for being you in these rancid pits of hate and divisiveness... evil

 
FuzzyWuzzy 2020-05-10 16:48:04 

In reply to Dukes

Sobers had become disillusioned with wicbc by then. He declared his availability for aus tour 72/73 but Walcott chairman of selectors said he hadn't sufficiently recovered from injury. He became more disillusioned in the eng 74 tour. It was said he made his decision during the Barbados match though he went on to play in Trinidad.


Did he retire on his own or because he was not going to be selected in 74 to india is open to speculation.

 
Barry 2020-05-10 16:53:12 

CricSham is also a great man and he must show honour to you... however like a child of a lesser god, he succumbs even in his victories...
Victory belongs to God who sees all injustices



Psalm 43:1
Vindicate me, O God, and plead my case against an ungodly nation;
O deliver me from the deceitful and unjust man!
razz

 
Norm 2020-05-10 16:55:17 

In reply to CricSham

As I remembered it, neither Kanhai nor Sobers retired officially, but they were obviously tired after helping WI through a very barren period under Sobers's captaincy.

Sobers was the greatest cricketer ever, but the worst WI captain ever, too. In hindsight, the captaincy could have been taken from Sobers and given to Kanhai earlier, but WI cricket politics would not allow it, and Kanhai did not particularly want it.

Both Kanhai and Sobers accepted that a new brood of promising players was emerging, and they stepped aside without having to be told to. That is a stark contrast to some of the later players, like Shiv and Gayle.

Ultimately, no politician needed to remove the likes of Sobers and Kanhai. They both walked when they knew they were out, just as they did whenever they batted. Greatness to the end.

"Some men are born great, some achieve greatness and others have greatness thrusted upon them."

 
Dukes 2020-05-10 17:01:18 

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

He declared his availability for aus tour 72/73 but Walcott chairman of selectors said he hadn't sufficiently recovered from injury.


You know how I love GS Sobers but do you remember how in that same Trinidad match he had to go off the field because his knee swelled up like a football.He was manifestly unfit at that time and everybody except him knew that.The question was even though he was unfit he was sooooo great that he could still perform in test cricket. Walcott was not prepared to do that and when he became fit he played in England a few months later.
Great sportsmen rarely know when to bow to Father Time and Sobers is not unique in this.

 
Atl_View 2020-05-10 17:21:35 

In reply to Dukes

Dukes there is a shortage of toilet paper now so put a plug in it. evil

 
Dukes 2020-05-10 17:24:42 

In reply to Atl_View

You would be better served if you argue your point of view with cogent and relevant points rather than insults.

 
Dukes 2020-05-10 17:42:22 

Here are some FACTS

1.Sobers played his last County match in 1972 for Nottinghamshire against Kent in June and was forced to retire hurt on the second day when 8 not out.

2.He did not appear again that year despite the season going on to September.

3.He played no cricket prior to the first test match on February 16th 1973 vs Australia but declared himself fit to play in that first test.

4.He played 1 match for Barbados against Trinidad, 1 week after the first test and scored 20 and 23 and bowled 8 overs in both innings.He spent the majority of the match off the field because of his knee injury.

5.He played no other matches in that season in the West Indies.

Now you guys can interpret those facts how you wish!!!!!

 
FuzzyWuzzy 2020-05-10 18:08:54 

In reply to Dukes

I don't disagree with your account of Sobers last days yuh know.

He had clearly come to the end of the line and like most had difficulty accepting it.

 
Barry 2020-05-10 18:38:16 

More evidence
In the decade 1960 to 1969 Kanhai was third behind Barrington and Sobers as an impactful batsman
Link Text cool
Please observe how old time Dr Dukes ignores the statistical evidence... razz

 
Dukes 2020-05-10 18:58:20 

In reply to Barry

I ignore facts about Kanhai???

I know more about Kanhai's career than practically everybody on this board and certainly more than Rohan himself!!!!!

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

 
camos 2020-05-10 19:48:13 

If I remember correctly his appointment was interim from the start, most of his generation had already left the scene.

 
Larr Pullo 2020-05-10 20:22:32 

Kanhai was well aware and comfortable with being the interim captain between Sobers and Lloyd.

The team at that time was aged, with bowlers like Vanburn Holder, Gibbs, Sobers and Kanhai close to the end, and Viv, Greeidge and company waiting to come into the team.

It makes sense that you would have a younger captain who would grow with the team.

It was an extremely successful transition that led to the WI’s period of dominance.

 
Barry 2020-05-10 20:33:10 

A man should never be comfortable with being a second class citizen when in fact he sleeps alongside the gods... too much modesty is a weakness... cool
Reminds me of the great CricSham confused

 
Dukes 2020-05-10 20:47:43 

In reply to Barry

Despite sleeping with the Gods you should NEVER believe that you can defeat Father Time.

 
Barry 2020-05-10 21:38:17 

In reply to Dukes

Lol, tell that to Mr Gayle and give me some pim particles so I can go back and remind that wicked bastard, Vivian... cool

 
Barry 2020-05-10 21:41:11 

Crim Sham, they tell me your a journalist - see how I construct arguments and evidence to tease out deeply entrenched bias? That is what a real man does for his people not grovel... confused

 
Barry 2020-05-10 21:45:06 

Rules of time (and health) only apply to some people?



Burnham’s quasi-socialist policies led in the 1980s to economic stagnation, with the country unable to export sufficient amounts of sugar, bauxite, and rice to earn the foreign exchange needed for vital imports. Burnham died while undergoing a throat operation in a Georgetown hospital.

 
Barry 2020-05-10 23:24:52 

No goodbye, no bye bye


Garry Sobers and Rohan Kanhai – v England, Port of Spain, 1974
When Kanhai and Sobers played their last day Test match, they held a number of records for West Indies:

They were the two players, who had the maximum experience, played 79 and 93 matches respectively
They were the two leading run-getters of West Indies with 6227 and 8032 runs.
They together had the most 100 runs partnership (6).
Sobers was the second-highest wicket-taker after Lance Gibbs
The loss of these two legendary West Indies cricketers was obviously a big thing, but the next big names were out of imagination. In the next series against India, West Indies gave a farewell to Gordon Greenidge and Viv Richards, who were the finest batsmen of their tea

Link Text

 
Dukes 2020-05-11 00:01:45 

In reply to Barry

What is left out is that Sobers was the first person to ever score 8,000 test runs.Later on Boycott reached 8,000 runs and ended up with 8114..Sobers was the 2nd West Indian to take 1000 first class wickets after Lance Gibbs.

 
WestDem 2020-05-11 00:07:04 

I am yet to figure out why one fcuk with 20+ handles can create this chaos? Are those that are still encouraging 3+ pages part of the plan?

Let me know, have an interview with Klas tonight at 9PM , it would only take me 45 minutes to get to Jamaica by my new Soca Jet and three minutes with my Sargent Chopper to Klas studio! lol lol

 
Dukes 2020-05-11 00:17:28 

In reply to WestDem

Y R U off your Meds?

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

 
Barry 2020-05-11 06:30:24 

In reply to Dukes

Clearly he’s on puncheon again ... cool

 
Barry 2020-05-11 06:32:28 

In reply to Dukes

I am aware of that. Kanhai should have been allowed to score 7,500... I apologize to him on your behalf- decent man... confused

 
CricSham 2020-05-11 09:40:33 

In reply to Dukes
Thanks Dukes. That's the word I have heard too re Sobers' retirement. Apparently Walcott wanted him to get a medical/fitness clearance and he disagreed, but I have never been able to confirm. I noted some posters (not you!) claiming that Kanhai's was an interim appointment - nonsense!
BTW, is the better half still sucking she teeth? There are times when one must respond with noblesse oblige. We do have that obligation, don't we?
big grin

 
CricSham 2020-05-11 09:47:16 

In reply to Norm
Norm, good to hear from you young man! We must catch up for a gyaff. Definitely, two of our finest, Sobers and Kanhai, who handled themselves with panache and professionalism until the end.
Stay well and mek sure yuh ra$$ observe social distancing down deh.
big grin

 
Barry 2020-05-11 10:11:26 

In reply to CricSham

Lol- high birth and noble position? Do you still have that in the Caribbean? It allows these men of great station to guide us poorly as we have seen with the West Indies Cricket Board- a habit of inquiry and critical thinking means that there are no sacred cows in social and political thought. That is why these Trinidadians have advanced beyond you.... Dukes is wonderful but his mind is old and retrospective cognition clouds his thinking. Norm may have better numerical and analytical skills but is dishonest and will never say anything. Fact is we shortchanged the man twice and you have remained silent because you honour those of high position cry

 
Benjie 2020-05-11 11:44:52 

In reply to CricSham

Misfortunes of Guyanese and WI Captaincy ? Didnt Lloyd captain the team for over a decade ?
Btw, the removal of Hooper as captain was shocking.

 
Barry 2020-05-11 12:28:35 

This is not about Guyana and Lloyd’s rise does not erase Kanhai’s injustice... Hooper should never have been.... confused

 
Barry 2020-05-11 12:29:26 

Kanhai belongs to the world.... surprised