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And seeing the bowling figures of Mr Michael Holding and to know that the young captain at the time Clive Lloyd picked him out for selection and was quite adamant about it for such a vital tour.
After all, the previous Jamaican fast bowler Uton Dowe was a flop.
Such visionary genius needs applauding.

In reply to Raggs

It was not Clive Lloyd alone who realized Mikey would be great. from early.Holding was earmarked by Umpire Kippins as well as people like Allan Rae,Roy Fredericks and Alvin Kallicharran that I know of.This is why I keep telling you guys that seeing players and looking at statistics are two different things.

In reply to Dukes

I notice that.I remember when he got selected 1975/76 the whole of jamaica was surprised by it. It was announced early one morning on JBC radio and put on the front page of the ja gleaner and many were saying him too young for such an endeavor.
I kinda remember Loyld saying he just missed out on the World Cup squad as well.
Super Cat must get kudos for things like that.

In reply to Raggs

I think Clive Lloyd deserves even more praise for Patrick Patterson's career.Patterson had played only 2 matches for Jamaica and was dropped.Lloyd flew to Jamaica and organized to face Patterson in the nets.He then went back to Lancashire and used his influence to get Patterson a game for Lancashire and because of that game Patterson got a contract to play for Tasmania.The rest as they say is history.Very few people know these facts about CLIVE HUBERT LLOYD!!!!!!!

In reply to Dukes

Yes I was in England at the time when I heard Patrick Patterson was selected. I just knew him as a up and down straight fast bowler and then all of a sudden he had a fantastic regional season then got picked. That surprised me quite a bit.

In reply to Raggs

Season------- Balls Mdns Runs Wkts BB -----Ave ---5wI-- 10wM
1982-83 (West Indies) 228- 5 -----129----- 4 ----2-26- 32.25 0 --0
1984 (England) 126- 3 -----51--- 0
1984-85 (Australia) 2256 51 ----1359- 37-- 5-67 36.72 2 0
1985 (England) 2187 59 ----1144- 41--- 7-49 27.90 3 1
1985-86 (West Indies) 1481 45-- 813-- 41 -----7-24 19.82 1 0

After Patrick Patterson's 2 games for Jamaica as I said he was dropped.However Lloyd arranged to get him to Lancashire and he played 17 games for Lancashire as well as 10 games in Australia for Tasmania.His 3rd game for Jamaica was 1986 when he destroyed Guyana for 41 taking 7-24.It was not until that Guyana match that West Indians realized how good he was.Lloyd on the other hand knew all along.

In reply to Dukes

In reply to sudden

He certainly knew after 2 games for Jamaica in 1983.He certainly knew BEFORE the JAMAICAN SELECTORS.

Didn't the Fidel Edwards selection occurred the same way, after being seen by Lara in the nets and after playing one game for Barbados he was selected for the WI? Holding was selected on potential, as he did not have any F/C performance to justify his selection.

In reply to dayne

NO

Lloyd used his not inconsiderable influence in WORLD CRICKET to get Professional contracts for Patrick Patterson in England AND Australia.As a result when Patterson next played for Jamaica he was recognized as THE FASTEST BOWLER IN THE WORLD BY NONE OTHER THAN Malcolm Marshall!!!!!!!

In reply to Dukes I have previously noted your comment regarding Umpire Kippins' assessment of Holding. And as you noted there are others who shared good opinions of the future fast bowler.There is however another complementary opinion from someone else.After the Jamaica vs Australia, a friend/co-worker came to work and told us that, purportedly, Ian Chapell was overheard in the Kingston Club pavilion noting that Holding had bowled Ian Redpath twice in the same match, and that such talent should be nurtured.(As not too many bowl Redpath). Turns out that Holding also bowled Redpath in the President's Eleven game which coincidentally was captained by CH Lloyd.
Fast forward to the Jamaica vs Guyana game at Sabina Park prior to the selection of the touring team. In Guyana's turn at bat they are not doing well until Kallicharan and Lloyd come together,they both scored hundreds.There is a particular period where is Holding bowling to Lloyd and troubling him and in 1 over beats him for pace and hits him twice.But Lloyd is tough.

In reply to alfa1975

This is why it is important to actually see the players since stats only tell you so much.I admit,I was not particularly impressed by Holding in 1973 when I saw him at Bourda.Freddo hooked him twice into the South Stand.However my partner who later played rugby for Guyana was impressed and told me that he will be on the WI team.Later Umpire Kippins who officiated that match said the same thing.It was when Holding returned to Guyana in 1975 and dismissed both Freddo and Kallicharran cheaply that the tongues really started wagging.I had already left Guyana and was in England so I heard about Holding after that match so I was not surprised when he was selected for the Australian trip.

In reply to Dukes

Patterson actually said his time at lancashire was quite miserable. And tasmania equally so

In reply to Jumpstart

It is really sad that his mental state is what it is.Pity he did not get the required medical help early on.

In reply to Dukes

In reply to Raggs


The "flop" Uton Dowe played the last of his 4 tests at age 24. After 4 tests his figures were comparable, at the same juncture,to the young Malcolm Marshall and Michael Holding.

What could have been if Dowe had had friends in the right places who were willing to back him after he had forced his way into the West Indies team with figures of 7-19 against the Combined Islands?

No less a figure than Wes Hall had lauded Coast of his promising 4-65 debut against India so one wonders what might have been if the powers that be had kept faith with Dowe despite his growing pains as an emerging test bowler.

In reply to jacksprat

In reply to jacksprat

Bro,that is not the whole story of Uton Dowe.

In 1972 Guyana played Jamaica at Sabina Park and Uton Dowe decided to take on Roy Fredericks by bowling bouncers at him constantly.After he peppered him with bouncers one over and Freddo ducked a few times he decided to continue.This resulted in Freddo taking 22 runs off 1 over from Dowe.
The next year Dowe was in the West Indies team for the first test against Australia at Sabina Park His teammate included Fredericks and his captain was Kanhai who was not present for that Guyana vs Jamaica match the year before but had been told about it.
The Australian opener Keith Stackpole had the reputation of being the best hooker in the world at that time and Kanhai warned Dowe to only use the bouncer sparingly against Stackpole because he was such a good hooker.
The evidence is clear that Dowe ignored Kanhai's admonishments and decided to do his own thing, such was his confidence which bordered on stupidity.Now if you are a fast bowler playing your 4th test match and you refuse to take your captain's advice, how can you expect to play if you fail.
I remember Wes Hall saying that Frankie Worrell told him not to bowl bouncers during the last hour of that tied test and he disobeyed, bowled a bouncer and got a wicket.He said he expected Worrell to congratulate him but instead he did not.For the record in that test match Dowe took 1 for 96 and none for 72.

In reply to Raggs

U R taking the word of people who sold out their race??????

In reply to Dukes

the book is done in a clever format. 15 chapters, each player tells his story. Big Clive is the common denominator it seems. Look, Clive's vision was right. History absolve he....simple.

In reply to Dukes

an old veteran told me once when I was leaving the oval cricket ground at the bus stop outside the ground that Loyld instructed Holding to bowl a certain way and the young buck did his own thing and the big cat put him to pasture down fine leg all day to think about his undisciplined ways.
next spell, the following day Holding behaved himself and got it right.

In reply to Raggs Say what you may pro or con about Clive Lloyd.
I once had the pleasure of sitting down and chatting for about 2 hours with Messers Lloyd,Holding and Richards prior to a test match against India in Trinidad.These 3 men sat there and chatted cricket.When we asked about some other players the answers were various and sundry. One player whom we had gone there to meet, was going out to hang out with a Trinidad player.(Girlfriend in tow.)- Team building and preparedness cast on its head.
Several years later Lawrence Rowe was auditioning to get back in the WI team and scored a hundred against the visiting Englishmen. Clive Lloyd in an interview on tv in Jamaica, when being apprised of Rowe's score and the likelihood of getting back into the team, said something along the line that, when you are Lawrence Rowe 1 hundred is not enough'.
Rowe never played for WI again.
As I said before draw you own conclusions

In reply to alfa1975

The Big Cat was Top Cat.

In reply to alfa1975

In reply to Dukes

Even more sad that it took the dedication from a journalist from half way around the world to bring all of this to light. As Point always maintains, there are no sports journalists in the Caribbean.
Also sad that the Jamaican Cricket Board and WICB have no interest in checking up on past stars.
This is why I have always supported our players who get their priorities right and put earning a living before playing for the WICB.

In reply to bobby

Look no further than Richard Austin and David Murray.

In reply to Dukes

In reply to Dukes

Actually, Lloyd was campaigning as early as 1981 for retainer contracts and a minimum wage(not the legal minimum wage) for cricketers across the region to combat the approaches by Bacher and co. They had been canvasing a while to get a West Indian team into the country. Of course the wicb had no time for that. And we lost a generation of talent.

In reply to Trex

Please explain to the folks that you are talking about Melbourne,Australia and not Melbourne Cricket Club.

Now I am interested to hear if you were able to keep up with Mr. Stackpole's son in downing your FOSTERS????
Dem man deh can drink yeh!!!!!!!!

In reply to Dukes

Victoria Bitter (VBs), Carlton Colds , any beer....but we hardly drank Fosters.