Cricket West Indies Chief Selector Roger Harper is suggesting that the structure of the West Indies team now in England for a three-Test series starting next month, and the expected playing conditions there, precluded the selection of Guyanese spinner Veerasammy Permaul.

Permaul, the 30-year-old slow left-arm orthodox spinner from Guyana, snared 50 wickets during the West Indies Championships that ended in March at an excellent average of 12.98. Speaking with Sportsmax.TV shortly after the season ended, he said he felt that the success he enjoyed would have put him closer to selection to the West Indies senior squad.

“If you look at the structure of the team; the Test squad and the reserves, you realize that there are not many spinners in the party,” Harper said while speaking on the Mason and Guest talk show in Barbados on Tuesday.

Read more at SportsMax

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In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com
So why allyuh didn't pick Nikita Miller,what yall precluded then.

In reply to granite

Pretty sure Nikita Miller is retired.

Hola..Mr Harper ..stop deflecting and say what truly is the real reason why the"TOP WICKET TAKER"..in your premier competition did not get on your select team...even as a damn reserve..
Permaul did not come with cup in hand...he came with 50 wickets to his name...choke on that..50.
What is your agenda Harper???? you are showing a blatant complicity with Simmons...an alliance that will settle it once and for all..ONLY COWBOYS WELCOME AT THIS SALOON.....
What the damn is wromg with you???
Even if as you say Permaul is not a wickettaker in England(by the way give me the lottery numbers..because you can foretell the future)..
the reserves were taken to England to practice with the first team..
I know you cannot comprehend this...but does it not make sense to take your top wicket taker to torment your batsmen in the nets?????
Or were you scared that espionage will be committed and spies will give the english camp the deficiency of your bats men????
Everything comes to an end ...I think you played in England ....your failure there does not translate into others being subjected to same..
As the guyanese does say...tass man...enjoy your soup..
Adios
CB

So why did you select Warrican? Harper is just another skunt..

In reply to anthonyp

Mason and Dr. Ford are not intellectually adept and clearly lack the sagacity to pin down QC boy Roger Harper who emerged unscathed from the discussion. Harper cleverly framed the debate on Permaul in absolute terms and I give him props for that.What Mason and Ford should have done is reframe the debate on relative terms and talk about the inclusion of 6 fast bowlers in the reserve squad.
It seems to me that a touring team is usually made up of 15 players and one would expect 6 fast bowlers in the team.Reifer is the natural replacement for Keemo Paul but due to lingering doubts as to the readiness of Shannon Gabriel,he was not selected in the 15 man squad.As it is one needs a SHOCK bowler and there are currently two such bowlers in the West Indies and they are Gabriel and Thomas.I expect prior to the first test one of those two to be added to the 14 man squad.

You therefore have 9 players left on the reserve squad and they are made up of 4 fast bowlers,1 spin bowler and 4 batsmen.
It is INCREDIBLE that you can find 4 UNCAPPED fast bowlers more likely to be successful in test cricket above a spinner who took 50 wickets in your premier first class competition at 12.98 apiece.Incidentally you insist that all players MUST take part in this competition in order to be eligible for the touring team unless injured or representing the official WI team at the time of the competition.

As a point of reference, we all know of the WI reluctance to push forward spin bowlers but let us put it in context. Clive Lloyd after India made 406-4 to win a test match,2 of those 4 wickets being run out said.From now on I will pick our 4 BEST BOWLERS and if they all happen to be FAST BOWLERS then so be it.That did not preclude playing a spinner and a classic example of this was in the last test at Sabina Park he selected David Holford who ended up with 5-109 to help WI win that test match and the series against Pakistan 2-1 in 1977.
When Roger Harper implies that Permaul is unlikely to be very effective in England, he is implying that all 4 of those rookie fast bowlers are likely to be effective in England since he is defining criteria for the selection of bowlers in the reserve team.

That is the type of enquiry a good journalist should employ but ALAS Mr. Point is correct and our journalists are not up to the task..

These guys make me look smart despite the overwhelming evidence that I am not.

PHEW

In reply to Dukes

.

Never a truer word said Doc.

In reply to Dukes

From what i understand you went to QC like Roger Harper. i went to Cawmere like Dr Forde so talk me thru this

In reply to sudden

If he claims that there is no such implication then he would have to explain why.
Why was Permaul not selected-He is unlikely to be successful in England in test cricket.

If you say that does not imply that those selected are likely to be successful in England in test cricket, then it means that you are using different criteria for Permaul as opposed to your 4 rookie fast bowlers and that can be construed as discriminatory.

In reply to Casper

In reply to sudden

Q.C 1-Combermere 0

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

In reply to Dukes

arent you assuming that that there are no differences distinguishable or otherwise between the bowling of Permaul and the others selected?

In reply to sudden

Typical lawyer speak, trying to get me to go down a rabbit hole of intricacies.FOCUS

He defined a specific REASON why Permaul was not selected, i.e his chances of success in test cricket on this English tour.
If I ask him if that same criteria was used for the 4 rookie fast bowlers then he has 2 options to answer.One is Yes and the other is NO.
Then is when it gets hot whichever way he answers.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

All Roger Harper should have said is V. Permaul fits nicely into what in management is referred to as the Peter's Principle.

After 6 test matches, the green shoots of Permaul's potential should have started to show. A SR of 76 in test cricket is nothing to write home about. Test batsmen work Permaul out easily...far too easily.

I have seen Permaul bowl and there is nothing there to invest in...absolutely nothing. As I have said before, we must think beyond our "our dung heap cricket" when eking out a test team. Mere stats alone used to select a test team are inadequate in our very weak cricket system.

That said, I take the point that most of our players are not up to test standard...in such circumstances, selectors must invest and give a heavy weighting to players who exhibit potential.

In reply to Dukes

lets say that is correct. how does that assist the question i posed?

In reply to sudden

We do not know because he was never asked.My point is that Mason and Ford failed to ask the pertinent questions to elucidate his thinking.I am saying that I would ask him a question that he would struggle to answer.
Whenever you are in that position it means that your approach was flawed.

In reply to Courtesy

You are attempting to make a case for why Permaul should not be selected for the 14/15 man squad.That is not the discussion.
Please pay attention!!!!!!!

In reply to Dukes

I will not pick Permaul even if there was a 30 player quota.

The tenor of my thrust is simply this: invest in players who have the potential to succeed at test level. Permaul will never get to the next level with his current bowling skill level. In New Zealand in which bowling conditions are comparable to England, his SR is 126. It appears that the selectors have written him off and rightly so.

I am with the selectors on this one.

In reply to Dukes

so what we have here is an assumption based on a supposition predicated on speculation laced with conjecture

In reply to sudden

I need permission to use this.

Team "structure" or "stricture"?

In reply to sudden




I think this is an excellent departure from the well known and indeed well worn phrase about when the facts are against you, you seek refuge in the law and when both are against you, you bang on the table.
When both the facts and the law are against you, inject humor.

Thank you sir.This shows why you are a formidable lawyer in Bim!!!!!!!!

In reply to Courtesy

of course

In reply to Dukes

i rest my case

In reply to Dukes

Harper said that not once by twice on the Mason and Guest show.
The first time he said, Spinners are only needed during the dry season, what questions can be asked, when Harper twice told the world that spinners are not needed in England?
BTW, Lance Gibb went further, saying he dont see any spinners in the region, you cannot spin the ball from two steps.

In reply to openning

One of the qualities talked about cornwall is that he spins the ball. I dono how much lance watched Cornwall but he does spin the ball, hes just all shoulders

Hola.."your honor the legal issue is not if Mr.Permaul would had been a success in England.nor whether QC is better than Cawmere...the fact sir is that the regional premier competition is where performance that is"GOOD PERFORMNCE" has been defined as the criteria for selection.If this criteria is the gauge your honor why is it not applied consistently..and your honor if there is adeparture from this ctiteria...why have phucking competition and waste every body's time..sorry your honor ..
Also your honor does it not make sense that CWI should send a list of names to the various regional boards indicating who has a pathway to selection..
your honor just so you know not every lawyer can present a phucking case or argument ..does not bode well for Cawmere or Donkey Mare
Adios
CB

In reply to Dukes

Let me remind you that neither Mason nor Dr Forde are journalists.

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

Did the Doc, Scold Harper for his selection?

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

Neither is Dukes!!!!!

As a matter of fact Dukes is just a disgruntled old man who gets off by being an obnoxious eediat telling young people to get off his lawn!!!!!!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

In reply to openning

Explain Warrican over Permaul?

In reply to natty_forever

Why do I have to explain Warrican, I've said what I think of Warrican for over 2 years.

In reply to openning

I am saying, isn't Permaul better? Harpers argument falls short here, in my opinion. Not attacking a bajan directly.

In reply to natty_forever
The selectors dropped the ball, they are sending a very bad message to spinners in the region, letting them know, performance does not matter.

In reply to openning

Why are you explaining anything? Are you a selector?

Permaul had a very good season and I believe he placed himself in a better position to be considered again. However, he sure would not have been on my squad to England with his 50 wickets this year. Yes he took 50 wkts but 25 of them were in his two games against Jamaica. So in his other six games he only took 25 wkts. Another thing is, in one of his games against Windward Island, in the 2nd innings WWD ended on 273/1 with Devon Smith 145 Not out and Hudge 100 not out. Permaul was no where to be seen. The decision was between Permaul and Warrican and Warrican got the edge because he was on the tour of Afganistan and kept his pick and, his team Barbados won the 2019/2020 West Indies champion

In reply to Sylobeauty

In the squad of 25 players there are 11 fast bowlers and 2 spin bowlers.Among those 11 fast bowlers are 5 rookie fast bowlers who have never previously been on a WI senior team squad.
Were you aware of these FACTS when you posted the above?

@ Dukes I was aware of those facts when I posted the above. However the majority of the argument on this site and around the Caribbean is about Permaul and Warrican. But if you want to highlight 11 fast bowlers with five rookies, I would say I understand your point but I still like the team because of the following: 1. We won the last series against England mainly because our pace attack 2. Our spinners have not been very successful in English conditions 3. Go back to our previous A team tours to England Permaul was not very successful 4. Don't expect more than one spinner on the final eleven and let's not forget we have Chase and Bonner. 5. Because of all the above let's not forget that there are no tour matches on this tour and as a result we will have a few games between a West Indies A team verses a B team and emphasis is going to be on fast bowlers competing for selection which I believe will be good for our young rookies fast bowlers

In reply to Sylobaby

I do not follow your logic at all.Let us get specific.The 5 rookie fast bowlers include Chemar Holder who is in the main squad and I think everybody agrees with his selection.The other 4 are Preston McSween,Anderson Phillip,Montague Mindley and Keon Harding.If you are suggesting that all 4 of these guys deserve a place on the reserve squad ahead of Permaul then we can have that discussion.

In reply to Sylobaby

That is true but irrelevant because we are talking about a squad of 25 persons




Roger Harper himself took his only 5 wicket haul in tests in England




Irrelevant as none of the rookie fast bowlers had any success in England because none of them ever played in England



Irrelevant since we are not talking about Permaul being in the Final test eleven.




How and why are you going to fit 11 fast bowlers into 2 teams?? I can almost guarantee that England will select a spinner so it makes sense to have 3 fast bowlers and 2 spinners in each team(WI A vs WI B) ESPECIALLY because our batsmen are poor against spinners as evidenced by a guy getting 50 wickets in 8 matches when allyuh do not think he can bowl.How well do you think Jack Leach will do against us?

In reply to Sylobaby

I took your advice and went back to previous A team tours to England and unfortunately could not find any, certainly none in the last few years and definitely none in which Permaul participated.I could only find 1 test match against England that Permaul participated in and it was in Barbados and he did take 3-43 in the second innings and WI won that test match.The only time Permaul played an A team match against England,the match was rained out and he only bowled 1 over.

In reply to sudden

That don't stop you, are you a lawyer.

In reply to Dukes
My friend, you ended the argument with this statement:

"Irrelevant since we are not talking about Permaul being in the Final test eleven."


If we already know Permaul would not be in the final eleven then what sense of going with a 30 year old spinner instead of a 23 year old rookie fast bowler? Can any coach really develop a 30 year old Veteran? The purpose for all these young fast bowlers is to help develop them because we have a future in them.

" How and why are you going to fit 11 fast bowlers into 2 teams?"

First, understand the objective is to develop our young fast bowlers: so consider the England tour as a scholarship to college for the rookies. Also, they will fit in our Team A and team B, since in a squad of 25 one team will play five fast bowlers and the other team will play six since the objective is not to win the practice games but rather to develop our young fast bowlers. Also, we are going to have at least 2 spinners in team A as well team B because we have four spinners on tour in Cornwall, Warrican, Chase and Bonner

"Team structure" kept Permaul out? Harper singing for his supper again. He cannot upset the Bajan structure. That is WI cricket for you.

In reply to Sylobaby

The above does not merit a response, except to say it is breathtaking in its novelty,naivete and quixotic nature.

You have reduced this discussion to the absurd but nevertheless,I will await until the end of the 3 test matches to comment on some of your assertions.Hopefully you will be as spirited in your responses then. We will both follow the progress of our 4 rookie fast bowlers in the future and more importantly we will see what role if any the left arm spinner Jack Leach plays in this series.Until then subsequent events will shed light on all of our judgements including the Chairman of the selectors and I hope that all of us will accept the verdict of time. and be honest about it.