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My plan for WI cricket 2020-2021

 
Dukes 2020-07-31 20:39:56 

I think the first thing CWI should do is a comprehensive review of the recently concluded English tour.The team management should be grilled in detail and individual assessments of all the members of the touring party should be thoroughly discussed and dissected.Based on these assessments then decisions about central contracts be made.Obviously the 3 people who declined to tour Bravo,Paul and Hetmyer should be spoken to to determine their commitment to WI cricket.Prolonged discussions should also be had with Nicholas Pooran to ascertain whether his interest in test cricket is as strong as some of us think it is
My next move would be to invite 25 players to a 3 week camp in Barbados from Late November to mid December I would make 4 changes to the 25 who went to England, bringing in Pooran,Hetmyer,Paul and Bravo and leaving out McSween,Mindley,Harding and Warrican.
Emphasis on both Physical and Mental fitness.Concentration,technique etc.Lara,Sarwan and Shiv should be involved in the camp.
The WI selectors should talk to Hetmyer and the Guyana selectors about Hetmyer opening the batting for Guyana.
All players on Central contract must make themselves available for the 4 day competition which would take place from early January to late March and consist of 10 matches.Of course all of the above is dependent on what is going on with Covid-19 later this year and next year.

 
sunfish 2020-07-31 20:50:57 

In reply to Dukes

Comprehensive proposal I am searching my brain for something to add to this perhaps restructuring the coaching staff because I have no confidence in Reifer as a batting coach. This man said on Mason that there was no problems with batsmen and he should be made to answer for it.

 
StumpCam 2020-07-31 20:56:44 

In reply to Dukes

You really think Hetmyer has the temperament to be an opening batsman??

 
Dukes 2020-07-31 21:01:08 

In reply to StumpCam

You really thought Gayle had the temperament to be an opening batsman early on?

 
imusic 2020-07-31 21:20:59 

In reply to sunfish

If I understand correctly, Reifer was a stand in batting coach.

Monty Desai was stuck in India due to the pandemic and couldn’t tour so Reifer filled in.

Desai had decent results with the LO team batting. Of course, tests are a different prospect altogether.

 
googley 2020-07-31 21:22:04 

In reply to Dukes

The WI selectors should talk to Hetmyer and the Guyana selectors about Hetmyer opening the batting for Guyana.


Think he can be as good as fellow Berbician Freddo?

 
Dukes 2020-07-31 21:23:22 

In reply to googley

Better

 
analyst-kid 2020-07-31 21:31:11 

In reply to Dukes

Freddo was fearless yuh...aint see none of that mental fortitude.

 
StumpCam 2020-07-31 21:37:06 

In reply to Dukes

Didn’t Gayle open batting for Jamaica when he scored about 1000 runs in the FC season?

 
Dukes 2020-07-31 22:06:41 

In reply to StumpCam

He certainly did.It was his 3rd season in first class cricket and after limited success in various positions he and Garrick had a great season opening in early 2001 where Gayle scored 1200 runs and Garrick 800 runs and in 1 innings both scored double centuries.

 
Cricket_101 2020-08-01 00:00:53 

In reply to Dukes
E

mphasis on both Physical and Mental fitness.Concentration,technique etc.Lara,Sarwan and Shiv should be involved in the camp


I'd like to have those batting aficionado facilitate in a mentoring capacity...

 
jcveletta 2020-08-01 03:45:29 

In reply to Dukes

Pooran should open the batting.

 
Bestian 2020-08-01 05:17:34 

Why would you leave out Harding?

 
openning 2020-08-01 05:36:19 

In reply to Dukes

Theory is one thing living it, is so much different.
I got two texts yesterday, one was for coming to dance, the other was from Bermuda about new line dancing that have gone global.
I have been working on that routine for about two weeks.
I take golf lessons every year, dance lessons is on-going.

 
CITYBOY 2020-08-01 11:05:03 

Hola...The incentive to improve and perform at the highest level is totally dependent on attitude,cricket ability ,talent and hunger....for success.

The support team,the camps and all that is just bull crap...identifying a select group of 25 and trying to make them into cricketers just dont cut it..
We a ready had /have identification process...under 16.under 19.A.B C teams..you name it we have it..
but what has been the result..who transitioned into anything spectacular..
All these camps are held in Barbados...maybe its the damn flying fish..real or the other fish...that aids the boys regression.
Did we not have some sort of university 11.
The one and only solution...pick players ..then drop them if they dont perform...pay them on performance...no retainers..retainers at the regional and country level..West Indies model is totally different from other countries.
Ensure countries get back to 3 day matches at their highest local competition.
When a cricketer is selected for WI he must be the finished product...not bringing some half talented one and hoping a camp would make him a world beater..
Everyone calling for the good old days glory...we can get there...let your policy be like the good old days..
Adios
CB

 
StumpCam 2020-08-01 13:08:03 

In reply to CITYBOY

What I think West Indies need are top quality coaches at the regional level to adequately prepare players for the next level and to provide remedial work to correct flaws.

 
Dukes 2020-08-01 20:30:47 

In reply to Bestian

Last place went to Phillip over Harding.I just think Phillip will be a better bowler.Does not make much of a difference.They will both play in the 4 day competition and the better man will be known soon enough.

 
Norm 2020-08-01 22:41:15 

In reply to Dukes

I think the first thing CWI should do is a comprehensive review of the recently concluded English tour.

They would need bank statements for that. Dream all you want, but that is what CWI is really interested in. The players are left to fight among themselves for fame and pittance.

 
Dukes 2020-08-01 22:58:33 

In reply to Norm

Cynicism,bitterness and defeatism are a deadly triumvirate.

 
Elsie 2020-08-01 23:41:24 

In reply to Dukes


Dukes; all of what you wrote is based on the assumption that these current W.I. players are interested in Test Cricket.
Most of them would rather play ODI and T20i. And not just for the money; but also because of the limit of their attention span.
Ask any of them if he wants to play Test Cricket, and they’ll say ‘yes’. Because they believe that’s what the big wigs at CWI want to hear.

Truthfully, they don’t care about test cricket and what it requires.

Test Cricket as far as the West Indies is concerned is dying a fast death. Forget about tour reviews and assessments.
Just prepare for the next limited over tournament.

If you want to enjoy test cricket, watch the other nations. We’re finished around here.

 
Dukes 2020-08-01 23:54:25 

In reply to Elsie

What keeps me going is my ability to ward off cynicism as I get older.I have spoken to just one or two players and they have all said to me that while ODI and T 20 gets them a lot of money, it is test cricket which gives them respect and prestige.
When the West Indies performs poorly in test cricket we tend to feel it is because the players do not care but that is not true.The problem is that they have not been adequately prepared.
BTW IT is not in my DNA to give up.

 
Norm 2020-08-02 00:01:03 

In reply to Dukes

Cynicism,bitterness and defeatism are a deadly triumvirate.

Yep, yep. It is called realism, and prevents unrealistic expectations.

The underlying hidden indifference to the game itself by CWI is reflected in the players themselves. Test cricket is merely a path to recognition and then to lucrative contracts in T20 leagues. In the current Test team, only (most of) the Bajans have a serious interest in Test cricket itself (fortunately for WI).

We disagreed on the motives of Keemo and Hety for not playing the Test series in England. You also described my view of that matter as "cynical". Here comes the CPL and IPL. Let us see if these players will "pass", because of covid-19.

 
Norm 2020-08-02 00:15:40 

In reply to Dukes

I would make 4 changes to the 25 who went to England, bringing in Pooran,Hetmyer,Paul and Bravo and leaving out McSween,Mindley,Harding and Warrican.

Ultimately, you show up at the ground on match day and those new players are nowhere near your team - because you chose to keep Hope, Campbell, Brathwaithe, etc.

Your plan presumes good talent-spotting as your selection tool and ignores the domestic competition. You also show no interest in long-term development of that competition, by not requiring all players to participate, to earn selection and raise the competition's standard.

You somehow assume that victory is possible if the best currently available talent is played. You set no qualification criteria, and show no interest in any. We just automatically "know" who the best available talent is.

What can I say? Nice plan for all out frustration, and "cynicism"!

 
Elsie 2020-08-02 00:31:49 

In reply to Dukes


It’s not about you not giving up though…

It’s about the guys on the field, most of whom don’t have the heart for Test Cricket. I’m convinced that fighting for a period of Five days is too much for them; most of the time.

If they get ahead of the opposition early in the match, they will take advantage of that position. And even prevail sometimes.
Like in the First Test last month.. Blackwood won us that game.

But what’s the likelihood of another one of our middle order batsmen putting up his hand and winning another game for us from that same situation on a regular basis. Who..? Hetty, Dowrich, Chase…? Darren Bravo, maybe, and Hope raised his hands once, a long time ago..

We could easily been whitewashed if it was not for Blackwood’s heroics.
How’s that for a tour assessment…!

And why talk about ‘prestige’ and ‘respect’ of being a test cricketer… Most teams beat us so easily; that the elite teams don’t even want to engage us.

This is not cynicism. I’m just keeping it real.

 
Dukes 2020-08-02 00:54:18 

In reply to Norm

Your plan presumes good talent-spotting as your selection tool and ignores the domestic competition. You also show no interest in long-term development of that competition, by not requiring all players to participate, to earn selection and raise the competition's standard.


I have REPEATEDLY AND CONSISTENTLY STATED THAT ALL OUR PLAYERS must play in the 4 day competition.I have SEVERELY CRITICIZED the CWI for scheduling Ireland and Sri Lanka this year which clashed with our 4 day competition.I have even suggested having 1 overseas player per team in our 4 day competition and made suggestions as to what type of player we are talking about
I have repeatedly talked about POORAN and HOPE not playing first class cricket.
It is as if you IGNORE WHAT I POST and then accuse me of saying the opposite to what I have been advocating.

 
Norm 2020-08-02 01:17:45 

In reply to Dukes

I am going by what is posted in this thread.

OK, so let's assume you have your selection policy, qualifications, etc, all lined up and implemented. You arrive at match day and your captain and manager still insist on ignoring the new players and sticking with a bunch of failures that they "support", "have faith in", "could fit in with the team", etc, etc.

If that is a problem, then how should CWI deal with it?

Somehow or the other, we get past the issue described above and we play, and get a sound cutarse. What then? Do we embark on a witch hunt, keep the failures, or something else? In other words, you stated you had a plan, but you did not say if it was a plan for winning, or development. Is there a performance assessment with this plan? Or, is its continuity totally dependent on the current CWI ruling regime?

 
Dukes 2020-08-02 02:13:58 

In reply to Norm

You arrive at match day and your captain and manager still insist on ignoring the new players and sticking with a bunch of failures that they "support", "have faith in", "could fit in with the team", etc, etc.


The WI selectors should talk to Hetmyer and the Guyana selectors about Hetmyer opening the batting for Guyana.


That line in my lead post on this thread is self-explanatory.
Obviously it is but one example of the type of discussions between the WI selectors and individual first class team selectors.
Similarly I would expect there to be discussions with the Trinidad selectors about Pooran and DaSilva and who should keep wicket and or open the batting or the Bajan selectors as to where Shai Hope should bat in the order.Looking at future captains and whether Hetmyer should be given added responsibility in the Guyana team.Clearly the WI selectors should be having continuous dialogue with the regional selectors

Life is about problem solving and I get the impression that you are of the mindset that the problems are too deep that they can not be solved and we do not have what it takes to do so.

 
Norm 2020-08-02 03:35:17 

In reply to Dukes

Similarly I would expect there to be discussions with the Trinidad selectors about Pooran and DaSilva and who should keep wicket and or open the batting ...

Doing so would put us back to where we are right now ... grooming selected players and winding up with more Shai Hopes. We desperately need to move to a merit system, where failing players are flushed out as soon as new prospects are available.

Clearly the WI selectors should be having continuous dialogue with the regional selectors

Absolutely not. Such recommendations will allow "chosen ones" to become unproductive, and it will ruin any development plan based on player merit and improvement.

Life is about problem solving and I get the impression that you are of the mindset that the problems are too deep that they can not be solved and we do not have what it takes to do so.

And there you go, resorting to ad hominem attacks because I questioned your "wisdom". Get pissed if you want, but I seek no friends in my views.

My "mindset" is a transparent development plan based on good performances in the domestic competition and most recent (Test) series, and respected and honored by administration and players. Such a system should have a transparent assessment system, both for the domestic competition and (Test) cricket. It would probably be best to create a player management system that is independent of changing CWI administrations.

There you are - a plan to solve a problem, with specific performance objectives for the plan itself - transparency, honor, continuity, independence and advancement based on merit. Unlike your plan, it is not based on creating and nurturing elite class, it demands accountability through performance assessment.

 
michaelmax 2020-08-02 03:43:42 

In reply to Norm

You had raised in the past, the question of players who are currently pigeon holed into specific formats to be considered for the Test format- I don't disagree- but could you flesh that out more. I can't help but feel if we keep doing things the way we are we will have these flashes in the pan and back to square one. We seemed to have moved from the extreme of discarding people too quickly to the extreme of having incumbents who have long past their sell dates.

 
Dukes 2020-08-02 13:07:20 

In reply to Norm

So, you are AGAINST DISCUSSIONS!!!!!!



I know you fully UNDERSTAND what the word DISCUSSIONS MEAN so that point of view to me is MIND BOGGLING

Your point of view that there should not be ANY DISCUSSIONS between the WI selectors and the regional selectors is INTERESTING.
I wonder how many people are in agreement with that and how you and those people rationalize such a point of view.

 
Dukes 2020-08-02 14:14:09 

One glaring omission in my 25 players taking part in the proposed camp is Brandon King.He must be included and so the person to make way for him is Bonner.

 
Norm 2020-08-02 18:23:52 

In reply to michaelmax

Players should be selected in Format X only on performance in the regional Format X competition, or in the most recent WI Format X series. If you failed in the most recent WI Format X series you should be dropped for the next, unless you re-qualify thru the next domestic Format X competition. " Failed" includes those who were not selected while in the selectable set, and also applies to the captain.

Not a flawless system, but fair, predictable, "measurable" and adjustable. (The progress of individuals or the entire team could be assessed and adjustments made to individual roles or the entire competition. The adjustments could then be further re-assessed, etc.)

 
Norm 2020-08-02 18:57:47 

In reply to Dukes

Players must qualify for special treatment through a process open to all, and that can only be the regional competition. Directing the territorial boards to select specific players for special treatment bypasses the open process and diminishes the value of the competition as the main factor in the selection process.

"Pooran" or "Hety" has to want to play in the format and in specific roles, and be willing to put in the hard work to qualify. A "privileged" passage thru the qualification process produces weak players and breeds disillusionment with the system.

If CWI "discusses" with territorial boards the inclusion of specific players or their roles in territorial teams, they would be effectively bypassing the selection functions of the competition, on behalf of specific players. That cannot be fair to everyone, even if some supposedly knowledgeable individuals think it is well-intended.

The fuss you are making here about "discussion" is an attempt to deflect and more, and you know it.

Let us stick to the cricket. We both supposedly love WI cricket and there is barely time enough, for me at least, to discuss that.

 
Dukes 2020-08-02 19:09:17 

In reply to Norm

Directing the territorial boards to select specific players for special treatment bypasses the open process and diminishes the value of the competition as the main factor in the selection process.


It is futile having a conversation with you if you repeatedly and deliberately fabricate what I have posted

 
openning 2020-08-02 20:25:24 

How is what being discuss, includes Best Standards?
After years and years of not producing quality players for test cricket, we should be studying and use some of the tools, that the top countries are using.
It all start from the local boards developing program, having facilities for players to practice their trade.
How do you regain the learning process, our best players received from playing county cricket?
The T20 players are benefitting from playing with an against the top players in the world, that is the reason for having some success, playing that format.
ODI and Test teams are not that fortunate.

 
Norm 2020-08-02 21:27:05 

In reply to openning

we should be studying and use some of the tools, that the top countries are using.

True, but we could also adopt good practices internally in the region.

Some territories are better at some things than others. Barbados seems to have a system that instills national pride in its players and promote fast bowling. T&T excels at T20 cricket, commercializing the game, etc.

Perhaps we need to learn more about our own individual practices, in addition to looking outside our territories.

 
Norm 2020-08-02 21:29:51 

In reply to Dukes

Directing the territorial boards to select specific players for special treatment bypasses the open process and diminishes the value of the competition as the main factor in the selection process.

OK, change "Directing" to "Suggesting to" if you want, and see if it makes a difference to the content.

 
openning 2020-08-02 23:16:00 

In reply to Norm

Perhaps we need to learn more about our own individual practices, in addition to looking our territories.

A few weeks ago, three Prime ministers was on the Mason and Guests show, they told the world, cricket is a Public Good, one even spoke about getting a hotel close to Kensington.
None spoke about assisting their various boards in the development of players.
One actually played real cricket.
Are you aware there are two indoor trining facilities in the region, one at QPO the other at CWI Cave Hill?
I work at a golf course, pros make money from teaching, 99.9% of the golfers will never play professional golf, but they want to get better.
In order for me to get better at Golfing and dancing, I take lessons, I will never every be a pro.
I am fairly good latin dancer, but I suck at golf, still learning not to lift my club, like a cricket bat.

 
Norm 2020-08-03 00:14:29 

In reply to openning

Are you aware there are two indoor trining facilities in the region, one at QPO the other at CWI Cave Hill?

There is one in Guyana too, on the East Coast of Demerara. Not much, but you could at least bat in the nets even when it is raining, practice slip catching, ground fielding, etc.
None spoke about assisting their various boards in the development of players.

Nor does CWI talk to them about that. Hostile relations, about "control" prevail (thanks to Cameron and company), and needs to be fixed.

In order for me to get better at Golfing and dancing, I take lessons, I will never every be a pro.

There was a Bajan named Walcott, who went to a faraway place in Guyana called Berbice, and helped to convert a group of enthusiastic club cricketers he found there into world class players. That group included Kanhai, Butcher and a few others.

Are you saying that those guys of about 7 decades were better equipped at transferring knowledge and learning than we are today?

 
Norm 2020-08-03 00:21:14 

In reply to Dukes

It is futile having a conversation with you if you repeatedly and deliberately fabricate what I have posted

Have you given up on your plan because someone questioned it? You still haven't responded to my contention that your plan is based on an "elite" group selected and promoted outside the normal selection process.

Is that the West Indian way of planning things? Get vex and walk away when your plan is questioned?

 
Dukes 2020-08-03 01:40:24 

In reply to Norm

Have you given up on your plan because someone questioned it?


You have not questioned my plan but set up a fictional plan and questioned that.
Lemme tell you something.I have planned and successfully implemented two enterprises which have been successful so I am pretty good at these things.
I am in no position to plan WI cricket, merely being a fan but in terms of looking for a way forward,I am yet to see you or any other person on this board present anything resembling sensible ideas for a way forward.
I realize that this is just a message board so it is silly for me to talk about what I have done, leadership wise but suffice it to say I have led a few things in my time.that is neither here nor there on a cricket message board where we are all anonymous, some more than others..
What I find unhelpful is distorting what I have said and advocated for by inserting falsehoods like "special treatment" and "chosen ones" in order to delegitimize my points.It seems that you have learnt well from # 45 in the art of deception.
On this message board some of us are shooting the breeze but some people have actual leadership experience and have been successful in more than one area of endeavor.

 
XDFIX 2020-08-03 01:43:57 

Players need to invest in themselves by getting their own coach, they're earning big bucks! If one's company will not pay for training, one must pay for his/her own training!

 
Norm 2020-08-03 02:13:25 

In reply to Dukes

My next move would be to invite 25 players to a 3 week camp in Barbados from Late November to mid December I would make 4 changes to the 25 who went to England, bringing in Pooran,Hetmyer,Paul and Bravo and leaving out McSween,Mindley,Harding and Warrican.

Did Pooran, Hetmyer, Paul and Bravo earn their places in the WI Test setup, or are they getting "special treatment"? McSween, Mindley and Harding definitely earned their spots. If Pooran, Hetmyer and company EARNED their spots no one would have to "bring them in".

It seems that you have learnt well from # 45 in the art of deception.


I guess this is how we are supposed to "discuss" - accuse others who don't sail along with our unilateral views of "deception", etc.

Anyway, I will make sure I check up on your other brilliant ideas whenever you post them. I will remember to ask #45 (! Who the hell is that?) for pointers on being my deceptive best!

 
Dukes 2020-08-03 04:35:06 

In reply to Norm

Did Pooran, Hetmyer, Paul and Bravo earn their places in the WI Test setup, or are they getting "special treatment"? McSween, Mindley and Harding definitely earned their spots. If Pooran, Hetmyer and company EARNED their spots no one would have to "bring them in".


I would let others come up with arguments pro and con your assertions above.

 
openning 2020-08-03 04:53:10 

In reply to Norm

There was a Bajan named Walcott, who went to a faraway place in Guyana called Berbice, and helped to convert a group of enthusiastic club cricketers he found there into world class players. That group included Kanhai, Butcher and a few others.

That era went away in the mid sixties, counties cricket replaced that time.
It goes to show you and others, it take more than talent to be an International sportsman.
Our T20 club players, are benefiting from playing that format, against the world best.

 
Norm 2020-08-03 05:18:01 

In reply to Dukes

I would let others come up with arguments pro and con your assertions above.

Good idea. I think we are trying to encourage wider discussion here, instead of just the two of us butting heads and openning helping with some input.

My basic point is that we have to develop a selection system that is agreeable to the players and stick to it very strictly, no matter how well-intended "exceptions" might seem. So, everyone must qualify through that system.

 
Norm 2020-08-03 05:23:08 

In reply to openning

That era went away in the mid sixties

Aw, come on. Every WI player that played county cricket was home grown in the West Indies, except Gordon Greenidge and possibly Headley's grandson. County cricket might have heightened their discipline and work ethic, but we produced locally many players with similar qualities too.

I have posited that indiscipline in our cricket often starts at the top of CWI. Regardless of its origin, we have to make a greater and more deliberate effort to instill all necessary qualities in our players if we want to be taken seriously in the world of cricket.

 
openning 2020-08-03 05:29:08 

In reply to Norm
For almost 20 years, I tried to show Point, the difference with Jimmy Anderson development, and his Invisible man.
Kenroy Peters was one of the standout at the U19 World Cup, but with no structure in St. Vincent our WICB, he was left wanting.
On the other hand, Anderson had a structure, he was involve in a county development program, at an early age.
Though are the kind of things that separates us, from the top countries.
It is going to get worst, if CWI and governments dont put money and programs, into developing players.

 
Norm 2020-08-03 06:12:58 

In reply to openning

Kenroy Peters was one of the standout at the U19 World Cup, but with no structure in St. Vincent our WICB, he was left wanting.
On the other hand, Anderson had a structure, he was involve in a county development program, at an early age.

True.

It is amazing that even counties could provide more resources for their players' development that the entire Caribbean currently does. There is also far less political conflict between county boards and the national board. For us though, conflict between CWI and territorial governments is a way of life.

Our cricket is managed improperly at every possible level, and we seem to think it has to be that way. More often than not, local boards are hijacked by people who are crazy about public status, with little direct interest in the game. These people have very little trouble dividing and conquering players and officials, year after year.

Very often too, our cricket administrators develop such a bad reputation that they are unable to attract meaningful sponsorship.

Still, we have to solve these problems ourselves, through transparency and respect for the systems we ourselves put in place.

 
openning 2020-08-03 16:26:31 

In reply to Norm

Our cricket is managed improperly at every possible level, and we seem to think it has to be that way. More often than not, local boards are hijacked by people who are crazy about public status, with little direct interest in the game. These people have very little trouble dividing and conquering players and officials, year after year.

You are preaching to the choir.
How can the Windward and Leeward not return to the various tournaments, that made their players more successful, Jamaica once had a semi professional tournament, which was the way to go, for all local boards in the region
Barbados maybe the only Island with an academy, but Andy Roberts said, the players go down to the centre to play dominoes.
It is going to get worse, if someone dont start putting cricket and the development of players, ahead of their ego.