The Independent Voice of West Indies Cricket

Message Board Archives

In hindsight Manley's Democratic Socialism

 
Chrissy 2021-11-04 11:26:56 

would have saved us from scumbags like Smith and the rest of scammers - in a variety of forms..
Way too many people are ignorant and gullible looking for any promise of hope. Replacing society with the market has been an abysmal failure across this planet.

 
Dukes 2021-11-04 12:36:41 

In reply to Chrissy

The road not travelled is always better.

 
culpepperboy 2021-11-04 13:34:50 

Humans always find a way to mess things up.

 
Chrissy 2021-11-04 13:51:59 

In reply to Dukes
The road was travelled for a time and the changes were profound.
We have better maternity leave laws than the USA. The bastard act was torn up. Household help has rules and regulations and many children of the poor have acquired tertiary level education. And don't forget teh National Housing Trust

 
Brerzerk 2021-11-04 14:15:28 

For some time in the 90's I was an exporter of Fresh Produce from JA to Canada n UK (Mostly so-called exotic fruits). The Mangoes and Soursop I was buying out of St. Thomas were from trees (seedlings) handed out by The Manley '70's Govt. under the Land Lease Program.
The stories I heard from some of those farmers- Men got money to supplement their farms and used it to buy motorbikes and beer. And, when they couldn't drink all the beer they used it to wash the motorbike! Those same men were stealing the fruits from the one's I was buying from.
The argument that Manley was ahead of his time and people needed to be first educated as was done in Cuba is a false argument. The free grab it mentality was too entrenched. Those same uneducated people would argue a whole thesis with you as to why Manley should be voted out of office.

 
Chrissy 2021-11-04 14:41:37 

In reply to Brerzerk
Tell dem - my brethren still brings me dem lovely East Indian mangoes from St Thomas - every striking year. All the CHristmas trees in the Blue Mountains and the replanting programmes were part of that.

 
Curtis 2021-11-05 14:34:53 

The problem with well meaning plans, there are always folks going against the grain. Just like anti-vaxxers, so are die-hard capitalists.

 
DonD 2021-11-05 15:12:10 

In reply to Chrissy

Way too many people are ignorant and gullible looking for any promise of hope.



Interesting: Scumbags like Smith aren't new to the Ja experience. Just about a hundred years ago Bedward was preaching his brand of revivalism . Hundreds or even thousands of his followers sold their possessions, gathered at August Town, and prepared themselves to fly to heaven. Many climbed into trees and at the appointed time they jumped, naturally falling and brukking up dem raas. As a little boy I remember people at Mother White's poccamania balm yard meetings - supposedly a Bedward original when he would baptise his believers - singing; "healing inna balm yard and dip them Bedward dip them , dip them inna healing stream, dip them Bedward dip them, dip them fi cure bad feeling." BTW, one of the biggest producers of mangoes in ST. Thomas is a relative originating from Clifton in Hanover.

 
Brerzerk 2021-11-05 20:44:57 

In reply to DonD

Nice Re your relative. Difference with Bedward: he was delusional not 'teef'

Chrissy- on expansion of secondary school places, Manley must be the first in the Caribbean that ensured Educators were not just skimming cream off the top

by 'sending on the natural learner' Teachers then spent more time teaching many more first of all how to learn and then taught them. So, so many of us 70's school
pikney benefited from that expansion

 
Dukes 2021-11-06 01:19:55 

In reply to Chrissy

National Housing Trust


Could not forget that. One of several good things about MM

 
Chrissy 2021-11-06 03:07:04 

In reply to DonD
Bredda we allknow Bedward was a con man too but he was a saint to dis one - you een hear di half of sis one Pupa!

 
Chrissy 2021-11-06 03:09:01 

In reply to Brerzerk
Sadly some of di robbers and scammers were di beneficiaries.
That said his policies were pro people.
Di sabotage was the real problem.

 
nitro 2021-11-06 16:36:09 

The NHT and other institutions created by the Manley regime were great for Jamaica.

The labor laws, albeit well intended, have placed organizations in Jamaica at the mercy of unions and workers. They have made it costly for companies to restructure in a rapidly changing global environment

 
XDFIX 2021-11-06 17:55:04 

Manley for hero, the man had his heart in the right place! Seaga turn back the progress!

 
Chrissy 2021-11-06 21:55:16 

In reply to nitro

That is BS - what happened was the Reagan/Thatcher New World Order where workers'rights and benefits were destroyed while management gave themselves wages and benefits that were in many instances 50 times workers salaries. Further workers lost permanent jobs, health care and even vacation benefits. Many were given contracts with long hours and no benefits.

Now the people across the globe are fighting back against this madness.
Turns out Manley was correct.

 
Alan 2021-11-07 06:52:33 

In reply to Chrissy
People get frightened by the word "Socialism" confusing it with one party state Communism in places like China and Russia.Democratic socialism within the framework of democracy is the fairest concept.Conservatism only looks after the interests of the people at top...the rich.People like Bernie Sanders in U.S is my ideal Socialist politician.Fights like hell for the poor demographic groups at the bottom of society.Redressing the inbalance.

 
Casper 2021-11-07 15:14:00 

In reply to DonD

DonD, what an interesting story, bwoy did I laff. People are always looking for an easy way to glory.

 
Chrissy 2021-11-07 15:22:22 

In reply to Casper

Dat is di true story lol lol lol

It was close to UWI too
- we've all been down to di settlement

 
HumbleCalf 2021-11-08 00:47:42 

In reply to Chrissy

While Manley implemented some uplifting policies and people like me benefited from free education and boarding grant, it is also true that under MM, we started down the slope that leads to a poor economy. It is also true that the saboteur(s), out of unwarranted fear, made things worse but at the end of the day, we are in a big hole that will take a long time to climb out of.

 
Ewart 2021-11-08 01:26:02 

In reply to HumbleCalf

...it is also true that under MM, we started down the slope that leads to a poor economy.



Let me fix this for you.

It was while Manley was Prime Minister that Seaga, driven by personal ambition and hatred for the Manleys, began spreading the lies and propaganda about communism (same lies Busta had used in earlier years) that allowed foreign agencies and government to accept his invitation to help him impose the murderous destabilisation program that began on January 6, 1976 and ended after he won the blood-soaked 1980 election. Only to be followed by his first massive devaluation of the Jamaican dollar.

You might also wish to be reminded of one Carl Stone who wrote about the management capacities of Seaga and Manley and found little or no difference!

All to say, beware propaganda.

//

 
Chrissy 2021-11-08 02:25:03 

In reply to Ewart

Dem peeps een understand the real sabotage that took place.
I was Guild VP so we went to meetings in Bim and T&T and would find goods made in JA in their supermarkets but missing at home. The entire PSO was in on it with help from our so called friends in the US and Britain.

Our people are way too gullible.

 
HumbleCalf 2021-11-08 03:03:23 

In reply to Ewart

I assume you are accepting what I said as a statement of fact and you are offering an explanation. I have no problem with the explanation.

I believe, in politics, if it happened under your watch, you have to own it. So MM should own the good things and the bad things. I think mature people (that would exclude Chrissy big grin) should be able to have a conversation about the highs and the lows, and where/how we could have done better. And although I know you are not prone to jump to (silly and immature) conclusions, let me state that I have never been a JLP supporter.

 
Brerzerk 2021-11-08 03:20:55 

In reply to nitro
Are you sure, have you ever read Carl Stone's lil Bible on Labor Relations in JA?
It concludes that Jamaican Workers consider respect in the workplace on par with if not more important than money. Every unionized company in JA that follow the law and their collective bargaining agreement have no real problems unless negotiations hit roadblock.

Moreover like the rest of the world (Thanks to Reaganism) JA is significantly less unionized now than in the past! Doan let dem alternative facts fool yuh

 
Brerzerk 2021-11-08 03:25:49 

In reply to Chrissy
Carlton Alexander's biggest blight on his career...taking over PSOJ and declaring 'economic war' on the Manley Regime. I remember his speech broadcasted on a Sunday afternoon after taking over. I was an eye-witness to the dumping of many food-stuff hoarded until spoilt during Manley's tenure but dumped after the election.

 
Ewart 2021-11-08 03:44:57 

In reply to HumbleCalf

1. He did. He said he made mistakes. He said what they were. And in his book "Jamaica Struggle in the Periphery" he began by expressing his deep regret at the things that happened in the 1980 bloodbath. Nobody else has expressed that regret as far as I know.

2. I guarantee you that if Hugh Shearer had remained head of the JLP the bad that happened under MM would NOT have happened. That means that the man who replaced Shearer contributed mightily to the bad. "The word is Love" was/is better than "I am going to mark my X with PNP Blood."

3. I accept what you say about your voting history. But not being JLP or being PNP is not what really matters here.

4. What is at stake is the TRUTH. I worked with both these men, Seaga much more so than Michael. I am probably the only person alive and composmentis who worked with them in journalism and diplomacy. I read, and as a student of political history, continue to read everything I can put my hands on about them and their time.

5. As has been written by several writers and academics, Seaga bears much more of the burden for the seventies and all the continuing detritus than anyone else. And this not from when he was Prime Minister only but from the time he snatched the post of Opposition Leader from Shearer.


//

 
Ewart 2021-11-08 03:49:08 

In reply to Brerzerk

Moreover like the rest of the world (Thanks to Reaganism) JA is significantly less unionized now than in the past!



Yup!

Correct!

//

 
Casper 2021-11-08 04:39:20 

It’s wonderful to see Yardies discussing the problems of the past in a civil way, as it is to read these posts and learn.

 
black 2021-11-08 05:18:06 

In reply to Chrissy

Government can only do so much my Sis.

Capitalism is the only way.

 
Chrissy 2021-11-08 13:48:06 

In reply to Brerzerk

Carlton Alexander's biggest blight on his career...taking over PSOJ and declaring 'economic war' on the Manley Regime.


And locking Grace products in warehouses or exporting them to the Eastern Caribbean to create food shortages in JA

 
hubert 2021-11-08 17:49:31 

In reply to Dukes

It was one of the if not the best thing he did for Jamaicans...and the success of it was too far reaching
for those who wanted it to fail . It was also a means to give the MM government funds that could be interest
bearing and expand.
BUT the saboteurs in high places in the Private Sector did not always remit the workers' deductions to the government coffers.
I know of quite persons who were affected when they sought benefits. I only became aware of my own situation
when through a friend I applied for a TRN number which is required for doing any business in the Yard among other things.
The authorities found all my employment records but have no record of NHT deductions from my income.

My very best friend in Jamaica discovered this a year before he passed six years ago and his spouse discovered this
was my case too only this. MM administration was sabotaged from top to bottom during those years.
Denying food and services to the population and money to the government coffers were effective ways of bringing chaos and violence
in their sordid bid to bring down the MM government and indeed the country.
The price is still being paid today in more than spades.
Not that I need or want anything from the country but the many who should have gained and gained in better times are the real losers.

 
Chrissy 2021-11-08 20:01:35 

In reply to hubert

Great post my brother

 
Norm 2021-11-08 20:33:29 

Thanks.
The struggle between the haves and have-not continues today. The haves continue to find supporters, because the have-nots quickly morph into dictatorships, thus defeating themselves, and allowing the haves to crow about victory and deceiving even more people.

 
Chrissy 2021-11-08 20:49:09 

In reply to Norm

There are way ore haves dictatorships including monarchies than there are have not authoritarian states.

The problem for developing countries finding their own way is that it is very easy for foreign governments and capitalist interests to buy out citizens willing to sabotage attempts to provide equity.the social good and hence more equality. The developed West works hard to maintain cheap labour at home and abroad - greed kills and has kills millions on this planet.
British and American imperialism were and are just as authoritarian although they have done a good job fooling people (at home and abroad) about democracy.
Now the cracks are there for everyone to see..

 
hubert 2021-11-08 21:38:11 

In reply to Chrissy

PSOJ .back in the day .we called it the Privileged Sons Of Jamaica.I believe a special hot place is reserved for
them if hell exists.

My uptown lady friend who lived in Norbrook and who used to hobnob with the upper crust although she lived and bled Orange,related
to me an incident that at one of their get togethers,a tea party or such,Conversation, centered as usual on Democratic Socialism and MM policies.
A question was posed to this Guy Meeks in essence asking him why he does not engage with the proponents of the 'doctrine' and he blurted,
'Me ? No. they will convert me'.
Jaws dropped followed by thunderous impolite laughter by the small group.
Subsequent to telling me, this became a standing prelude when ever we are about to imbibe some a drink at her house. I still smile whenever
I recall such days and occasions.
Oh my Jamaica ,special country.Land that I love.

smile

 
Chrissy 2021-11-08 23:46:41 

In reply to hubert
Evil men and women

 
Norm 2021-11-09 00:37:34 

In reply to Chrissy

There are way (m)ore "haves" dictatorships, including monarchies than there are have(-)not authoritarian states.


A few (typos) that I corrected. I agree entirely with this statemen. No doubt the mentally enslaved will argue forcefully against this, as their principal argument against any attempt at correcting economic injustice is to cry "undemocratic".

 
Ewart 2021-11-09 00:56:44 

When Seaga took over as Jamaica’s Prime Minister on October 31, 1980, everybody expected big changes.

He did not disappoint, and high on the list was the expulsion of Cuban Ambassador Ulises Estrada. The Ambassador had not comported himself within the confines of diplomatic niceties, and his expulsion drew no tears.

In another round of political victimisation (which Seaga had started in 1962) many people were turfed from their jobs. Names of organisations were changed, and the Agency for Public Information was once again named the Jamaica Information Service (JIS). There was more.

But to the surprise of many people he did nothing about Jamaica’s second national newspaper, the Daily News. Not in 1980. Not in 1981. Not in 1982.
In 1983, under pressure from his US associates, he assisted the invasion of Grenada, he reduced the staff complement in the Cuban Embassy, he sliced a sliver off the Bauxite Levy, he called a snap election, and he handed the axe to the resurrected Ulric Simmonds to kill the Daily News.

Three or four years later we learnt that the Daily News’ library had been sold. Yes, sold. The Library!

It is not known for how much or who collected the money. And the stupefying thing was the purchaser. The library of the Daily News, which contained the clippings of every story it had published since it began on May 31, 1973, the library of the Daily News had been sold to a man in Montego Bay who owned a small hotel on Gloucester Avenue and a few buses. A man with no imaginable interest in the library of the Daily News, or any other newspaper for that matter. All this from an unimpeachable source.

What to make of this!
As News Editor, I had made sure that the Daily News covered Seaga relentlessly. He, Trade and Industry Minister Robert Lightbourne and Housing Minister Wilton Hill were struggling to find their place as the successor to Prime Minister Hugh Shearer. But none more so than Seaga.

Fortunately for the Daily News, and by pure happenstance, there was a mole in the JLP. A Shearer supporter, he would telephone the News Editor of the Daily News after every meeting of the executive and bring him up to speed on what was transpiring.
Nothing like a good source, and the Daily News thrived on that. So the newspaper was on the ball with front page lead stories when Seaga announced that he had resigned from his ministerial post and everything else except his constituency, and was leaving to write three books.

The resignation did not last long. Lightbourne fell out of the race and formed his own party, leaving Hill. But then, under continuous pressure, Shearer, never comfortable as party leader, threw up his hands and resigned. “If dem want it dem can take it.” he said.

With that news, Seaga rushed back and emerged as leader of the JLP in late 1974.

Edward Seaga was a man of extraordinary meticulousness and attention to detail. And he maintained very strong revisionist practices. A few examples will be illustrative.

Example 1. Photograph Change. On his visit to President Reagan shortly after they both won elections in 1980, I did all his pr work and accompanied him to Washington. A group photograph was taken with Reagan and his wife Nancy, Seaga and his wife Mitsy, and two or three high ranking Americans, one of whom was John Connolly, Lieutenant Governor of Michigan. When the photograph was presented to Seaga, he said,
“I don’t want that man in it.”

And he returned it to me to give back to the photographer to eliminate the man. Fortunately, he was standing at one end of the group so it was easy to print a copy without him.

Example 2. Hansard. One night of late sitting of Parliament, Agriculture Minister JP Gyles had apparently had one too many drinks at the bar. As the session proceeded he got up out of his seat, waltzed out to the aisle between the two parties and started singing and dancing.

It was a time when the Gleaner’s staff was responsible for Hansard reporting so both the Hansard reporters and the Gleaner reporters including me were in the same room. We were naturally surprised at the end of the night to see Seaga come up to the Hansard Room. We were astonished at what happened next. For, asking to see the Hansard report, he then crossed out the part about Gyles’ performance. And then he left.

Example 3. Renaming. Seaga renamed several agencies institutions that Norman Manley had formed. This included Jamaica Welfare. And he claimed authorship of several things Norman Manley had created including Things Jamaican.

Example 4. Cariñosa. Shortly after the news that UNESCO (I think it was) had made a grant to Jamaica to rehabilitate Hope Gardens and Castleton Gardens, we heard about Seaga owning Cariñosa.

On my next trip to Jamaica I visited the place. Beautiful! Exotic fauna and flora. And at the top a fairly good restaurant staffed by people from….Tivoli Gardens. I never heard any report that Hope Gardens or Castleton Gardens was ever improved with that grant money.

//

 
Ewart 2021-11-09 10:58:28 

Socialism and Capitalism in the Yard

Bustamante was a member of the People’s National Party and on the platform when it was launched as a Fabian Socialist party in September 1938.
Bustamante remained a member of the PNP when in 1940 it declared itself a socialist party.

He was a member of the socialist PNP when he was locked up at Up Park Camp in 1943.

His anti-PNP life began with his release from detention after the ruling British offered him freedom if he would work against the PNP and its goal of self-government and Independence.

The PNP lost the 1944 elections largely because of Bustamante’s popularity as leader of the Bustamante Industrial Trade Union.

The PNP won the popular vote in the 1949 election but not enough seats to take power, and this was largely due to the introduction of the communist bogey by Bustamante and which was swallowed hook, line and sinker by the voters.

In 1952 the PNP expelled the Four Hs – Hart, Henry and the Hills Ken and Frank – who were the leaders of the Trade Union Congress labour union and the left wing of the PNP, in response to claims that they were communists.

As a result, the PNP won the 1955 and 1959 elections.

Up to that time, while Bustamante still talked about communism, nobody was talking about capitalism being the right thing for Jamaica. That would come later under Seaga and his embrace of the United States and its foreign economic policies.

And when I say “foreign” I mean foreign to the made-in-Jamaica policies and activities that led to things like Jamaica Welfare (which was a socialist endeavour based on co-operation with one of the largest capitalist companies in the world).

When I hear people proclaiming the virtues of capitalism I remind myself that those “foreign” policies which might be truly applicable to large countries with huge economies and a history vastly different from Jamaica’s, those policies are intended to help those large countries grow larger and richer… at Jamaica’s expense! Those policies are not designed to help us.

It is in that context that Jamaica has paid far more back to international lenders than it has borrowed.

It is in that context that things like the shiprider agreement worked for the US but not for Jamaica.

It is in that context that Americans came to Jamaica to destroy ganja fields but not before they took some of the best Lamb’s Bread and Sensemilla back to America to plant and develop their own ganja industry.

It is in that context that American metals companies fought against Michael Manley’s bauxite levy.

It is in that context that the US Right-wing wanted Seaga to remove the bauxite levy.

So while capitalism can be good, it is better for some countries than others.

Michael Manley's term "Democratic Socialism" was meant to stress the baseline of democracy, that the people would not be left out, that the union was a strong part of the party. He declared against communism and never imposed any communist or anti-democratic measures. His many actions were not for the good of his party but for the good of Jamaica.

Capitalism is also better when it is not wrapped up in anti-democratic, anti-union, anti-people, trickle-down, right-wing politics that only work for conglomerates and commercial interests. But, as we have seen and continue to see, that wrapping remains.

Fortunately, yes, fortunately, the pandemic has forced the world to begin looking once again at what democracy is about, to begin looking at the people who voted them into power. That is what Mia Mottley was talking about at the COP conference when she said, leaders must work for those who elected them to lead.


//

 
Chrissy 2021-11-09 13:02:09 

In reply to Ewart

Tell dem bro - great posts wink

 
FanAttick 2021-11-09 13:31:23 

In reply to hubert

Well said…Every time to I travel to South East Asia I cant help but reflect on the opportunities missed by Jamaica due to the wanton sabotage of Joshua and by extension the Jamaican people…and this is despite what my friend Wally would have you believe….

 
Chrissy 2021-11-09 15:52:43 

In reply to FanAttick

Eent Wally? wink wink

 
hubert 2021-11-09 17:41:25 

In reply to FanAttick

Wally knows better.

smile

 
np 2021-11-09 19:10:44 

In reply to Chrissy

Di sabotage was the real problem.
True dat Sis. The island never overcame that sabotage.

 
np 2021-11-09 19:15:56 

In reply to Ewart

Well put Ewart. The truth and nutten else. Blindaga ... became a menace to society. His Tivoli then became is downfall, and that backdrop still is hurting JA from a criminality POV.

 
hubert 2021-11-09 19:24:24 

In reply to Ewart

Excellent encapsulation , as usual.

 
XDFIX 2021-11-10 12:15:13 

What Jamaica lacks is leadership!

Disappointed with that young fellow Andrew Holness who is not seeking to do anything new and different - practicing the same old politics!

One of the problems is some of these politicians don't travel, study, or live overseas for any period of time, thus the wearing of blinkers! - Holness falls in that category!

 
Ewart 2021-11-10 12:44:26 

In reply to XDFIX


Preach! Right on the ball!


//

 
Chrissy 2021-11-10 12:53:12 

In reply to np

Damn it is lovely to see you my brother. I felt your pain and discomfort from hurricane Ida. wink

And yes I loved through that sabotage. They cannot fool me on dat one/

 
Chrissy 2021-11-10 12:54:05 

Love this thread - keep em coming wink wink

 
Chrissy 2021-11-10 12:54:36 

In reply to XDFIX
Agree - there is no leadership except in the chase for enriching themselves.

 
Brerzerk 2021-11-17 19:55:49 

Missa 'Waltas' Sah you have forced me to post a few things.1st J.P. Gyles-My Grandparents lived in his constituency and my Grandpa used to say regardless of which party she could never vote for him. Then I understood the whisperings much later. On his vast land holdings are vertical caves (sinkholes) Grandma learned from her Great-Grandma that they were called TENKIE HOLE (thank you holes). Rather than waste slave labor digging graves Gyles' Great-Grandad would have four slaves put the dead slave on a board transport to and slide it off the board into the sinkhole. Burial there was seen as a relief from the hardships of slavery hence thanks. But worse, Grandma learnt that as slaves were dying Ole Gyles would order them to take the dying slave to be 'dumped.' She learned old dying slaves on hearing the order would weakly say 'Massa mi nuh quite dead yet' and Ole Gyles would order 'Cyah him galang, carry him galang but bring back mi board!' So, if in the effort to heave a dead body off a board the slaves failed to hold on to the board and lost it to the cave they'd be punished. Gyles' fore-parent put more value on the board than the slaves.

2nd Now to Manley, sometimes I laugh when I should instead cry. I was part of a Student Govt. that voted to demonstrate against Manley cutting the student grant that but for Manley himself we would not have had. It is the most reactionary and one of the stupidest thing I have ever done. Now, I remind my sons every day of the full meaning of 'Man lives by bread alone (only) when there's no bread' Douglas McGregor.

3rd. Mostly to Black- What is Capitalism? The craven has so distorted Adam's Smith Theory (which itself had deficiences) that it is now unrecognizable.

 
Arawak 2021-11-17 20:12:56 

In reply to Chrissy

We left Jamaica because of disillusionment with Manley. My dad was so excited with bettah muss come and took a position with the govt managing a housing development and distributing aid and such in addition to his teaching job at Mannings. After a few years the shine came off... when he was told that no, we don't deliver flood aid to those JLP ppl on their rooftops, it goes to the PNP people up on the hill. And remember all the half-built housing projects? Joshua promised the same one piece of money to every single development on the island, so they all got started and couldn't complete.

Bags packed, gone ah foreign.

Don't get me wrong... jook them with minimum wage, jook them with free education... all that was important. But I think it would have come eventually anyway.

 
Brerzerk 2021-11-17 20:22:28 

In reply to Arawak
Great insights especially re the political discrimination. In those days of strong $JA there were teachers from all over the commonwealth. My school had Trinis, Baje, Ghanaian, British. Free Education was light yrs. away, now its reverted to pay if you can afford it or never enter a tertiary institution

 
Ewart 2021-11-17 20:51:15 

In reply to Arawak

No question that some of those things happened. And I do understand why many people packed and left.

But I suggest to you that the really big problem was

1) the lying propaganda spread by Seaga in the US and Jamaica that MM was communist - a charge he was forced to repudiate later on, and

2) when that was not strong enough, to get the Yankees to unleash the CIA in replaying the Chile destabilisation in 79-80, the deadly results of which we are still seeing 40 years later in unending and escalating gun crimes.

Because Michael Manley was PM many people feel he was responsible for the mayhem of the seventies. I suggest that the real responsibility belongs to Eddie Seaga whose lust for personal power launched him onto a path that for most people is still shrouded in silence.

//

 
HumbleCalf 2021-11-17 21:33:59 

In reply to Arawak

You remind of these songs...the BEST political songs ever!!!!

Link Text

Link Text

 
Chrissy 2021-11-17 23:18:56 

In reply to Arawak

There were flaws but there was also sabotage

 
Chrissy 2021-11-17 23:19:30 

In reply to Ewart

Well said

 
Arawak 2021-11-18 00:13:08 

In reply to Ewart

2) when that was not strong enough, to get the Yankees to unleash the CIA in replaying the Chile destabilisation in 79-80, the deadly results of which we are still seeing 40 years later in unending and escalating gun crimes.


I've heard this stated many times, and it's certainly not hard to believe.

Is there any credible evidence to support it?

 
jahmekyah 2021-11-18 00:44:09 

In reply to Chrissy

Jamaica should never had independence
We are incapable of governing our self

 
Chrissy 2021-11-18 02:08:21 

In reply to jahmekyah

That's pathetic

 
CricSham 2021-11-18 02:36:13 

In reply to Arawak

Is there any credible evidence to support it?


Why do I need evidence? If saying something makes me feel good, then it must be true.

 
CricSham 2021-11-18 02:39:30 

In reply to jahmekyah

We are incapable of governing our self

Bro I cannot speak for Jamaica but Guyana became a shit show after we (PNC/PPP) tek over.

 
Ewart 2021-11-18 02:45:52 

In reply to Arawak

Yes.

There is a large number of writers, journalists and professors who have been writing about this, especially since Seaga's death (when he can no longer resort to the Trumpism of filing libel suits).

But here is the thing.

Seaga was well loved but only in his constituency of West Kingston, particularly Tivoli, his baby.

The result was that although he could sometimes get 104% of the vote in West Kingston there was no such luck coming from the rest of Jamaica. Which meant that he could not win a general election.

So he lost the 1976 general election and then said that Democratic Socialism had won.

But by 1977 he was back at his old tricks. He then made several trips to his country of birth to seek their help to make him Prime Minister, first on the grounds that MM and the PNP were communists (and friends of US enemy Fidel), and then to offer them to kill MM's bauxite levy of 1974 which had been passed unanimously in the House with him in attendance and, I believe, voting for it.

The Yankees jumped at the bauxite levy promise because the US metals companies mining Jamaican bauxite had gone back to Uncle Sam complaining about the levy Uncle Sam then built up the CIA presence in Jamaica to 11 (Check Philip Agee); they got the support of the PSOJ and the Gleaner, and some captains of commerce and business in Jamaica and launched their Chile-style destabilisation (check MM's book Jamaica: Struggle in the Periphery).

But back to Seaga's US visits.

The Jamaican authorities knew he had been visiting America and badmouthing MM and the government, even calling for "a military solution" and then one day they struck paydirt. They got a tape of his utterances and false claims in a presentation at the National Hotel in Washington. And they raised it in a motion moved by Foreign Minister PJ Patterson in Parliament and censured him circa November 1977.

Then came the externally assisted 1980 election with its guns and rivers of blood that shot MM out of power and installed Seaga. It was the first and last contested general election he would win. And he won it because of the propaganda and the burning of houses and killing of people that helped to make Jamaicans afraid and to believe that all this was caused by "communism." So PNP people helped vote MM out of power although for the entire time MM was in public life including the seventies, the polls kept saying Manley was the most popular politician in the country.

The biggest link to the US/CIA support comes from a man at the US Heritage Foundation which was front and foremost in all that happened in the seventies. He wrote a report on the eve of another Seaga visit in 1986 advising Reagan that Seaga had not kept his promise to the US. I have the document if you want to see it.

And what was that promise?

To institute a number of right-wing policies and kill the bauxite levy.

This marked the end of US support for Seaga. He never won another election. Because there was no more outside help.

Also this. The elections of 19786 and 1980 were unique in their gross violence. Nothing like them have happened in al, Jamaica's electoral history from 1944 to now. When Michael Manley campaigned against Shearer and won in 1972 there was little or no fuss or violence.

Similarly, and most telling, when Michael defeated Seaga in 1989 there was little or no violence. The reason?? No outside assistance.


Hope this helps.


//

 
Brerzerk 2021-11-18 03:20:10 

In reply to Arawak

Yes!! Phillip Agee is indeed a credible ex-CIA officer who has provided detailed info. John Perkins'ConfessioNS Of An Economic Hitman is worth a read. Like I said I was witness to the dumping of rice with the thread-like funghi in it. It is interesting that the Airport Catering Service Co. was the 1st company to be divested and went to Carlton Alexander's Grace 51% and foreigners with the know how 49. It took I think more than 2-3yrs. for any other company to be divested. The previous owners packed up and went to Canada and Manley's govt. to save jobs and the travel/tourism industry stepped in and stop-gap ran it.

 
Brerzerk 2021-11-18 03:41:15 

In reply to Ewart
To add to your reply and also inform CricSham. The first incident of Mass killings in JA was the Eventide Fire where old ladies running from the fire at that home for the destitute were thrown back into the fire. On that night JA experienced for the 1st time the firing of M16 rifles. Any that the cops got hands on had the serial # erased; hmmmm. I knew a bad-man from a certain inner-city PNP area. He said Ulysees Extrada was with the 1st set of AK rifles to arrive in JA and personally showed how to fire it commenting that if the Americans thought M16's would be the only semi-outos on the island the score is now evened!!!

Why out of the blue was a home for indigents attack but for terrorism by using those considered most innocent and expendable to drive fear in a nation?

 
Arawak 2021-11-18 04:53:22 

In reply to Ewart

Hope this helps.


Well, no.

You stated that the CIA destabilised Jamaica. I'm looking for actual evidence to support this. Specifics of how and when.

People writing unsubstantiated stuff in memoirs (never mind internet forums) is not evidence. Declassified or leaked documents, like what you see on Wikileaks, would be useful. Agee and Perkins hardly seem credible and at a glance there seems to be very little specifically about Jamaica from them.

 
Brerzerk 2021-11-18 05:01:38 

In reply to Arawak
I want someone to give a more credible reason for an out-of-the-blue incident of 153 old, indigent, women, many of them blind being fire-bombed and burnt to death in a government-provided home. Add to that the never before firing of semi-automatic rifles by non-military individuals. String of coordinated crime, mayhem and roadblocks followed.

 
Ewart 2021-11-18 14:37:11 

In reply to Arawak

"One can take a horse to water... twenty cannot make him drink."

Man, Wackie, you remind me of some of Toots Hibbert's lyrics:

Everybody just crying crying crying crying, dying to see the light, and when they see it they say it not bright..."


If we are to clothe you with the shining garments of sincerity then you will have to explain why you have not done the research yourself. I will not do it for you. All you have to do is file a Freedom of Information request with the Library of Congress. Ask among other things for the amount of money ($80 million 1976 US, I am told) that was spent on destabilising Jamaica and the Manley government.

As you know, the CIA does not go about broadcasting its activities. Never did. Never will. In addition, while it provides funds for its clandestine activities, it prefers to use locals to do its dirty work, although it also becomes engaged.

In the meantime, ask yourself why the foreign press invaded Jamaica to cover violence in 1979-80 (during which there were a mere 900 people killed), but have shown no interest in the 1300 average yearly murders over the last two decades or so.

But, yes. Do your homework. Send in that FOI request.

And then share the results with us.

That would be sincerity.


//

 
Arawak 2021-11-18 14:39:45 

In reply to Brerzerk

That's purely speculation.

Exactly the same logical fallacy that leads a certain class of American (and wannabe American) to conclude that "the election was rigged".


So anyway... while it's well documented that the USA has no qualms about using covert means to destabilize countries to install governments to their liking, there is a paucity of evidence that supports this happened in Jamaica as well. It may have, but I think probably the greed and incompetence of our leaders (including Manley and Seaga) saved the Americans the trouble.

 
Chrissy 2021-11-18 15:08:22 

In reply to Ewart
The data is there for all to see

 
michaelmax 2021-11-19 05:17:41 

In reply to Arawak

So I guess you don't think the USA overthrew the democratically elected governments of Iran, Guatemala and Chile either? Hmm. Evidence of US action in the region and elsewhere exists.

To compare what happened in Jamaica with the Trumpist/Republican claims make you sound like a both sidesim member of the US media.

The data is there and there are US sources for the data. Heck I READ an entire research article on political violence in Jamaica which really questioned the JLP's truthfulness on the 1976 State of Emergency in that people like Pearnell Charles and Babsy couldn't seem to explain the reasoning behind having the guns they did.

That in 2021 you are oh I 'm not sure this is true" really is indicative of not having done the research and not listening to those who have and those who LIVED it.

 
Chrissy 2021-11-19 09:56:48 

In reply to michaelmax

Good post - glad to see you on this thread.

I read on the files on the US role in the mess that is now Guyana. And yes the data on Jamaica is there for all who want to find it.

 
Chrissy 2021-11-19 09:59:38 

In reply to Arawak

Please present one exxample of greed and Michael Manley.

 
Ewart 2021-11-19 16:57:31 

In reply to Chrissy

Norman Manley, the once wealthy barrister, gave up his practice to serve Jamaica and died in poverty.

His son Michael Manley, on retirement, was forced to travel abroad giving lectures to keep above the poverty line.

There is no report of any JLP leader dying in poverty.

Indeed, Seaga still owes that $30 million that is said to be the cause of the suicide in his Mercedes Benz of Bank of Jamaica Governor Headley Brown.

And Mark Wignall one of Seaga and Tivoli's great defenders wrote at least one major article outlining his abysmal financial arrangements with his north coast properties.

Yes... the "financial wizard!"


//

 
carl0002 2021-11-19 17:25:45 

There is something being left out of this conversation and I don't know if its deliberate. We all know US doesn't simply overthrow governments and destabilize countries for the fun of it without some strategic interests. What was the CIA interest in JA.

 
Ewart 2021-11-19 17:41:20 

In reply to carl0002


It is not left out.

It is bauxite. Business as usual.

It is the US metals companies reaction to the unanimously passed bauxite levy of 1974 which Seaga promised him he would remove if they helped him become Prime Minister.

And they did. They helped him win in 1980.

But he did not remove it. And they dropped him. And he could not win another election without their help which now was no longer forthcoming.


//

 
michaelmax 2021-11-19 17:56:32 

In reply to Chrissy

Thanks. Sometimes I just lurk to just free my mind from work-teaching and the stuff for the MPhil/PhD. This thread has been informative since I was born in the 1970s but some of this I heard from mother and one other.

 
hubert 2021-11-19 19:30:44 

In reply to Ewart

Thanks for reminding or informing a great many that NWM died in poverty..His well appointed and beautiful home, Drumblair(?) was mortgaged to the to run
the election of 61 prior to Independence after he lost the referendum on Federation before that. Was advised not
to call the election and he did. He lost his home too in the process. My Hero, NWM.

I can count on one hand the politicians I know that left the field no better off financially than when they served. NWM was foremost..I probably only need three fingers,Edwin Allen
is another.NN Nethersole is probably the other,; It is highly possible that back in the day, there were more in this class/....but not in the post Independence
era.

Did not know Headley Brown committed suicide. If Buildings could talk...Oxford Road Apartment Building...hello ?
Jamaica ,how I love You..

smile smile smile

 
Chrissy 2021-11-19 19:41:21 

In reply to hubert

Correct

 
Ewart 2021-11-19 20:19:43 

In reply to hubert

Oxford Road Apartment Building...hello ?




Hahaha!

Remember it well. It was described as a high-rise building with a ground floor and a 16th floor.... and nothing in the middle.

lol lol lol lol


//

 
Brerzerk 2021-11-19 20:38:01 

In reply to Arawak
Tremendous FALSE COMPARISON dat! How can one compare idiots and cultists convincing themselves that 2020 US elections were rigged with CIA sabotage of JA? MADNESS!
Prior to the destabilization program
a. There was not one single M16 rifle in JA (Serial #'s removed so not able to be traced as those used in Vietnam by US military)
b. No previous terrorist attack on any govt. institution be it hospital, police station, indigent home...
c. Never before over 150 harmless, helpless old women or any other group of humans killed in one criminal attack.
d. Even with the shortage of foreign currency as oil prices quadrupled rice and other staples couldn't just suddenly disappear.
e. What motivated Phillip Agee and Perkins to become public Economic Hitmen confessors?
f. Why within 48hrs after the election did I see rice previously held in the warehouse of GK&co. being dumped due to spoilage when there was such a shortage of the product on the Island.
g. How come the day after 1980 elections political violence stopped and never returned to anything remotely close to that level again.
h. Why when asked in an interview about his collusion with the CIA Seaga sidestepped by saying 'I have never spoken to a CIA MAN in my life' NB he never said no one never did on his behalf nor at his prompting'.
Selah.

 
Chrissy 2021-11-20 00:08:23 

In reply to Brerzerk

I will never forget that Eventide Home fire - I'm taking that one to the grave. Monsters did that.

 
Brerzerk 2021-11-20 04:14:15 

In reply to Chrissy
Terrorism at its worst. Designed to create shock n Awe. No turning back after. Story-teller Morrison claimed to the feds "Is man like me mel communism nuh reach Jamaica"

 
Chrissy 2021-11-20 11:31:20 

In reply to Brerzerk

Yep - Seaga was evil