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cricbuzz

Carlisle had this story long now to tell. Just wondering what made him tell NOW!

In reply to Narper

really?

if you were that good you'd have surely found your way back...in 90 you were just 30 or thereabouts

In reply to Narper

I read this and Sammy story earlier today and knew you would get on top of this, thanks.

You remember one Nicola Cave-Hunte?

In reply to doosra

If this thread get any life, you will get a real history lesson.

In reply to WestDem

Lara's book coming too

Shiv was supposed to release a book too...wonder what happened

In reply to doosra

From all reports Best was very very good. He use to commentate when he was batting. I heard one time Greenidge played a shot and he told Greenidge I am going to show you how Bajans play that shot. I have heard some say he was better than Greenidge. That is how good he was. Check his last scores before he was dropped.

I heard he got into an argument with Richards over a runout involving Malcolm Marshall. He told Richards he was the batsman so he saved his wicket. The argument deteriorated into him insulting Richards about his lack of education and of course Richards told him he will never play with them again.

In reply to methodic

Richards was no innocent and though he is now looked upon in a romanticized way, during his tenue, he gave the young lad Lara a hard time, was arrogant and his lack of intellectual muscles meant he rarely understood the societal issues.

Best was a massive talent and it is factually correct he was not given a chance and yes, he outperformed Richards in every game they played together.

In reply to methodic

checked...this is the 2 tests in Pakistan

In reply to Emir

that means what really?

Richards at his peak when he did that, or even near his best?

Stuart McGill outbowled Shane Warne in almost every match they played...but no one thinks he's close to Warne

that is a nonsense take

In reply to methodic

serves him just about right...

Looks like Best was keeping down Lara .....

he would never play for WI gain but he played several ODIs after Viv retired...some logics deh

In reply to doosra


I maintain that Best was very very good. I heard Tony Cozier hint that better management by the board over the years would have saved a lot of talented players careers.

In reply to Narper

best did get a raw deal but brian lara never played a test match under IVA. that is inexplicable

In reply to methodic

his FC record suggests he was good...but you told me to check his Pakistan scores...

best barely had a few scores in his last 10 to 15 innings for the WI -

was he really competing with Keith Arthurton for a place?

In reply to doosra

He played 8 tests and high score of 164. Not much matches for a man that scored 164. Did he play on any Richards teams after he was dropped?

In reply to methodic

with those 4 scores I am not sure how he was commanding a place after but i will wait for rational arguments (more than he seh, dem seh)

he played ODIs in 91 and 92

PS: Tage has a double in 10 tests

Is not every day we hear a Bajan complaining about insularity in selection process.

In reply to Trex

Yes Best was probably the last one

link

In reply to doosra

So the third test against England in the West Indies he and Marshall was actually involved in a run out. He sounds like a man that is proud of his education.

In reply to methodic

i have no trouble with him being proud of his ed...good for him

rubbing it in the face of your leader is a different matter

In reply to doosra

Bottom line is that it is impossible to be as strong as Viv was and don't end up in some clashes. You wouldn't always be right.

In reply to methodic

Moat of the great ones are like that across all sports

Mj etc

In reply to doosra

true,

In reply to doosra

Ambrose and Richie Richardson could make any West Indian side. More importantly Best could never be selected ahead of Richie Richardson.

W. Benjamin was one of the most talented players to rep. West Indies but had many issues....still didn't need bias to be selected.

Keith Arthurton would be the only one who seemed to be picked due to bias.

Best needs to find some other examples.

This is a topic if I was not related to both sides, I could have some input in.
My wife is a Richards, and my three oldest sisters have the same grandmother as Carlisle.
Carlisle grandmother delivered all eight of my mother's children.

In reply to Trex

In real time the argument was on Carlisle his ego and education, nothing about Richie.

In reply to doosra

The first and the last one.

Affirmative action. Viv is a Champion.

In reply to Trex

that is very debatable. benjamin never took a five wicket hall and there were bigger, taller, quicker pacemen like Tony Gray who never got half the opportunities winston got. In fact, benjamin was out of the WI ambit until Bishop got injured again. Kenny played in the SA test in 92 but not winston. both were utility bowlers, expected to pick up a few wickets but could not blow away a batting lineup

It is easy to just look back at stats. They only tell part of the story.

Carlisle Best was arrogant. He talked too much and he rubbed people the wrong way.

This is stupid.

Sir Viv is one of the 3 greatest ever best Windies batsmen.
Yes he was arrogant, a bully, rude, and harsh on youths.
That was the culture there and then.

His rudeness allowed him to stand up to the cricket bullies from other teams
including biased commentators and umpires.

Best was a very good prospect, but too mouthy.
Best said to me that he told Richards that he did not need cricket
as he had a degree in economics and could make money from it.

On another note:
Best and Lara were kept out of the team for Arthurton.
Richards orchestrated Richardson appointment as cappo over Haynes.
Winston Benjamin was a bit and pieces cricketer.
Richards was biased towards his low-islander players.

Browne was an insular selector.
Haynes does not deserve mention, as if you
look up insular and you will see Haynes picture.
Scammy orchestrated Aljo promotion to VC over Hope, who was incumbent and a better choice.
Scammy picked Charles who we know cannot bat
The Jamaican administration from a few years were probably the most insular ever.

I edited and added the next paragraph
A close second to Insularity is Trinis- namely Simmons/Pollard
I forgot to mention the Trini Possee.
Remember Hope loosing VC position in ODI strangely.
No VC was announced to Pollard on a tour, although Hope was then VC
Pollard suddenly got ill and Pooran took over the cappo for the matches Pollard missed.
Pollard suddenly retired and Pooran was give the cappo in ODI and T20.
We know how that ended.

The only fairish selectors were:
Lloyd who was obviously going through some senile state.
Harper to a certain extent.

Back to the point:
Best, it is best to keep ya mouth shut fa a change.
That book will further expose your stupidity.
Best lost me when he stated in a recent interview that Haynes selections are fair.
What a joke.

When I started watching regional in 1987, many of the cricket followers around me wondered why Best wasn't a regular in the team. They all thought he was a better batsman than Keith Autherton amd most opined Keith was in the XI because of Richards

The comments Best makes on Smoking Vivi are similar to those reported by Lara about Richards. Only missing item is Lara's kit bag Richards fling out of the dressing room
Rookie Lara had to like it or lump it.

Would Richards try the shyte Best and Lara accuse him of with Sylvester Clarke? Think on it.

Then there was the roughing up of a visiting journalist by the WI cappo. There is a pattern of bullying behavior.
The 'great' Richards played Shell Shield v Bim for more than a decade finishing with a batting average of 20. Those stats could not have made the 'great' man a happy camper. Dujon and Chang averaged more.

Best was a skilled batsman shafted under Smokin Joe regime because he was part of the invincible Bim teams of the era.

In reply to Narper

That tell you all you need to know about that individual. He was a legend only in his own mind. And maybe methodic’s

Both of them delusional.

In reply to imusic

The man needs to sell copies, this book may be a decade late.
His cousin should also write a book, with the title, No Family of mind should be poor.
He said that to me and my niece over drinks in Calgary

In reply to JOJO

that is how I remember him, he would not hesitate to tell people he was an economist. Best was not the first or the last and certainly not the most talented player to be treated unfairly.

they both are supremely arrogant men i dont know how they could exist on the same team without a physical confrontation at some point .certainly what richards did to lara with the throwing bags out the window best would not have tolerated regardless of richards stature at that time maybe trinis are built diferent

In reply to doosra

Yep. Best was a prick. He was unfortunate not to play more tests but his arrogance exceeded his ability. I had heard variations of this story about him goading Viv re his superior education. No surprise Viv did not want him around his dressing room

In reply to JOJO

Yes that's absolutely correct he was arrogant an that's ok to a point if yuh gat great stats an performances which are contributing to Windies winning matches....somebody said why now ...indeed why now....hope Viv rises above dis and doesn't respond to dis mudda sc**t non- entity!!

I enjoyed watching. Carlisle Best bat. He was a good batsman and fielder.

His most endearing quality was his running commentary while batting. I never heard it myself, but have heard enough stories about it and its effect on opposition.

I used to look forward to Best at Sabina, always entertaining good technique bold strokeplay.
I went wild when his 1st scoring stroke in tests was a pull for six into the eastern stand off Botham
Could've had more chances but many either forget or don't know this.

At Carlyle's prime it is Logie with who he was competing for a place and under Lloyd's captaincy!
Lloyd's mantra was not to change a winning team and Logie endeared himself to Lloyd and fans
with his electric shortleg fielding and reliable rearguard stands with Duj.
Cozier's comments re Logie keeping Best out of the team was one of the few if not only public act
of insularity (because of the way and tone)


Viv when asked to name the WI all time XI said Macko would be the 1st pacer penciled in and he cried like a baby at Macko's funeral.
Macko's status and influence in the team had much more to do with Best's short sojourn than anything Viv.


Viv/Lara-Again many either don't know or forget the real context and go by Lara's take only.
Just as with Walsh, Lara's early days in The WI squad was 'blooding.' As the junior who was not expected to make the XI
he'd be tasked with some 'menials' which also included driving Viv around in the 'sponsor car.' Lara himself said when he asked Viv
why he can't make the team the reply was 'Your time soon come and when it comes make full use of it.'

Proof of 'Blooding'
a. Cuddy already a damned fine bowler did not replace an injured Small in the XI. Instead, Winny Davis was called up from the counties and as
nightwatchman made a damned fine 75.
b. When Greenidge pulled an hammie Lara did not replace him in the XI. Rather, Clayton Lambert was called up from the counties and wasted his opportunity.

Hope this provides context and disabuse some of us who will too readily see divisions where there aren't any.

In reply to Brerzerk

the Maco angle is interesting

In reply to openning

Man comparing himself to the Master Blaster and the great Brian Lara?? If you have to publicize and promote your own greatness, then obviously you are feeling inadequate. It’s really laughable when a Bajan is crying insularity.
BTW when I was at UWI the other Best was playing for Cave Hill Campus in the Inter-Campus Cricket Tournament, and every ball he hits, was punctuated with, “I am Bess man, I am Bess”. I guess the arrogance is a family trait.

In reply to doosra

Those of us who actually saw it live will forever remember Macko's reaction-missed! You doan runout the greatest WI fastbowler ever just suh.

In reply to Brerzerk

Didn’t Walsh debuted as a 19 year old under Lloyd???
Or am I mistaken!

In reply to StumpCam

Holding, Walsh was later than 19.

In reply to TanteMerle

Whose spot Stuart Williams was taking?

In reply to StumpCam

Walsh debut on the 84'-'85 tour down Under. I'm sure that's after the English tour above.
but you see how adherent they were to the blooding and 'protection' philosophy back then.
To take Clayton Lambert out of the leagues to debut ahead of The Prince in order to 'protect and not expose him to soon' hahahaha.

In reply to camos

Mikey was about 21-22 when he debuted. He had already played for JA and Prez XI.
I kinda remember he debuted about 2+-3yrs after leaving high school

In reply to camos

OK, so he debuted at 22 years of age, but under Lloyd, which was the point I was trying to make.

In reply to Jumpstart

Agreed 100%,Benjamin was on the WI team because of Viv Richards also Eldine Baptiste.

Winston Benjamin was a steady contributor to West Indies team. Tony Cozier said he never saw him play a poor game for West Indies

In reply to methodic

Cozier said it so it's gospel!
Ya kidding bro.


Benjamin and Baptiste were jokers.
Bits n pieces players.

In reply to granite

Eldine Baptiste debuted long, long before Viv became captain and WI won every single match in which Baptiste played.
Baptiste debuted '83 and Lloyd retired '85. Most of Baptiste tests he replaced a member of the 4prong who was injured.
90% of those ten tests were played under Clive Hubert Lloyd.
a. As we get older facts get fuzzy and perception trumps reality.
b. Younger ones who weren't around do not check facts often enough to proffer up facts. I think Baptiste played one single dege-dege test under Viv.
I saw him drop a sitter at 'Bina and the other ten teammates made sure to not even look in his direction. That included Viv.

In reply to StumpCam

Stumpy in those days special young talents were taken on tour with the certainty that that they would never play a single test just FC and
dressing room and practice learnings (Walsh under Lloyd and Lara under Viv). That was what Lara recommended for Sammy not because of talent but attitude. Instead, Sammy debuted
and got that record breaking 7wkt haul. That may have heralded the change of philosophy re-Blooding. That is my point re men claiming Viv
not playing Lara. He was not on that tour to play tests no matter what.

In reply to cumberland

I do not doubt him for a minute, I impression of Viv is the same, now I would not of express that, because I could not support it, let us all remember Viv wanted The big cat out well before he was ready,
also he had a beef with Mikey because Mikey was smarter than him, also think the decline of WI cricket started under Viv, I know he did not lose a test series, bet those of us how were around then
would know the sequence of what was happening

In reply to bird

Proof

These is the kind of threads I like to read. Quite informative and able to pick facts from some fiction. It's great to see the back and forth dialogue without some posters getting nasty with each other while at the same time asking questions and or being educated or educating others. I wonder if any of the posters here ever wondered about putting pen to paper and putting out a book calling it like A History of West Indies Cricket through my eyes. And having like different editions like the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. Then in a few years someone do the 200s etc.

I think it's important that these things aren't just here on a MB but laid out for the public to see.
And remember its juat a point of view cause it's fron your eyes.

If Viv was so insular……Jim Allen would have played for West Indies

And Hamish Anthony would have been a permanent fixture in the side.

The point is……neither Eldine Baptiste nor Winston Benjamin detracted from the WI team at that time.

The only player who one could say wasn’t up to par was Keith “Binary” Arthurton. He was simply the Roger Harper of his time.

In reply to Narper
Except that KA is not Antiguan

In reply to imusic

No, Viv couldn't have any say on Allen that'd have to be Lloyd. Trying to remember if Hamish wasn't more around Richie's time. There were times when the team should've had young Tigerpaul instead of Arthurton for sure. The Blooding theory hampered Lara's entry into test. A great irony is the modern thinking of Harper/Duj circa '2000. To 'protect' Sars confidence after a rough start to the Oz tour they recruited a 19-20yr old talent with one FC match (at age 16) to replace Sars...Marlon Nathaniel. Out of the box and definitely against previous theory. Did it work as well as it could?
No, the correct support structures were not in place. Good Mgt could've gotten more out of both while containing Marlon's 'flaws'

In reply to Brerzerk

Arthurton kept Lara out of the test team.

FACT

In reply to Brerzerk

What is good mgmt?

On the 2002 WI tour of India, Wes Hall reportedly stepped in and overruled the WI Board after Marlon decided to spend the night in an Indian nightclub in breach of the team’s curfew rules. The board was set to expel him from the tour.

Wes Hall intervened and he gained a reprieve.

Given what you know today of how Marlon Samuel’s turned out……which “mgmt style” would have been preferred to “get more out of Marlon”?

In reply to imusic
Jim Allen should have played test cricket

In reply to imusic

You see, it appears you assume I think Marlon should've been cuddled, I do not and believe he should've been sanctioned in some manner for that incident.
Both Marlon and Sars could've been much better handled and motivated much more and produce more. Total Mgt. find ways to maximize talent for the benefit of all. CWI
has never known how to do that. It is either laxity or extreme punishment and a vacuum in between. How many developmental programs outside of cricket practice
and physical conditioning WI players go through?

In reply to methodic

Tony Cozier also said Brian Lara was bad for WI cricket.....I'm very measured considering comments from Cozier. Both benjamins were good....but they were utility players, neither was as tall or quick as bishop, patterson, gray etc

In reply to imusic

Ironically, athurton scored his two test centuries AFTER Viv retired
FACT
People didn't like to say it because they liked viv(or were afraid of him) and curtly but there was a LI clique coming down to the end of the 80s into the 90s. People said it when richardson got the captaincy because the entire caribbean thought that by natural succession, Desmond Haynes, the most respected WI player, would have been given the captaincy as he was being groomed by Viv to be his successor

In reply to WestDem

You said it. The great teams, famous music bands etc have nasty, dark undersides masked by the adoration they receive for being the best. Underneath the facade there's hurt, bullying and nastiness fans don't hear or see until a whistleblower outs the whole shebang. Best and Lara expose plenty 'dirty secrets' behind the iconic Windies teams of yesteryear

In reply to TanteMerle

No set of people could ever me more insular than you "we is cricket godz" Bajans when it comes to cricket. So doh try dat!

In reply to JahJah
Have to agree

In reply to Jumpstart

Nice thread. My recollections and thoughts from the 80s . I thought Clive Lloyd kept Best out of the team . Best was a good batsman and i figured Lloyd kept Best out for Gus Logie. I also figured he kept Ranjie Nanan out for Harper. Nanan took a ton of shell shield wickets every year. Both Logie and Harper were exceptional fielders so maybe that gave them the edge. Keith Autherton was a Richards/Richardson thing.

In reply to rudebway

Arthurton was also an exceptional fielder

In reply to imusic

So what happened when Logie scored 90 at Queens park and did not play the next test at Kensington?

In reply to imusic

Viv was not big enough at that time, to have Jim Allen in the team, I would have love to see jim Allen in the team he was very exciting, if I am not mistaken Viv and Jim was rivals to see who was more exciting

In reply to Narper

Every individual has right to describe his past exactly in the manner he feels,....,..Best was a budding talent,when Richards was at the helm of West Indies cricket.....Best was educated, talented and egoistic....a very rarity in West Indies cricket.... Richards was very very hard task master....Lara , who was extremely talented excel , simply because he came from very humble background .. Lara endured Richards bullish behaviour.... Richards was done in by his own prodigy Richardson, speaks volumes...

In reply to Onionman0

I tell unnuh that memories fade with time. How can Best be a budding talent when Viv was at the helm if his FC career started before 1980 and Viv became skip about 85-86? At first Best didn't hold down a permanent place in Bim's team. Rebel tour and who was in the touring test side helped both he and Payne to cement their places and they did pretty well thereafter.

Best was a good talent while Viv was a great player. Viv, however, had many flaws, arrogance and disrespect were at the top of the list.
i preferred the Master Blaster over Viv.

In reply to Wally-1

???

was it viv who box dung you bai showtime and send im ome?

Antigua Prime minister Gaston Browne likens Smoking Joe Vivi Richards batting to that of RTN.

In reply to Jah Jah and Chrissy

Please show me one person or some with their multiple handles
who does not demonstrated insularity at times.

I do not even support Windies, as Ozzies is my team.
Bim has many good cricketers at present.
My present bajan loves and Dislikes: -
I do not like Braffit as cappo and have stated that many times.
I believe in Hope as all-format and VC for test and T20.
I believe that Holder is an all-format player and was hard-done when stripped as test cappo.
I believe that Greaves is a budding test player; however, behind Holder in pecking order.
I think that Roach was great, but is pass sell-by date.

Call this insular if you like: I don't care:
I dislike A. Joseph as any type of VC role and an automatic started in any of the teams.
I believe in Powell as cappo of T20 team
I dislike Scammy in any role except mentoring. Worse coach ever.
Sinclair and Imlach should push as starters in the tests, as batsmen.
Athanaze should be an all-format player.
Mootie, Hosein and Pooran should be all-format players and vie for starting roles.
I do not support any team without Pooran and Mootie as starters (all formats)
K. Powell, J. Charles and J. Louis should never be near any Windies teams (save A teams)

Everyone has their likes and dislikes, favorites and non-favors
Insularity plays a part in all people's thoughts
whether they admit it or not.
Tell me who here will not favor their own, when push comes to shove,
and I will show you a liar.

In reply to Castled

Viv wasn't a technical batsman. he had superhuman reflexes and especially eyesight.....even his dad when interviewed said that was Viv's trump card. And that being the era of fast bowling monsters, technical correctness may have got you to survive, but not thrive., Tendulkar, for example, survived fast bowlers. he never dominated them. Viv dominated every single paceman he came up against.

In reply to Onionman0

it does and apparently their relationship was frosty for years after that

In reply to methodic

this is true. but logie again played many times before lara. lara was a breakout talent, dude scored 90 odd versus marshall and garner as a teenager in only his 2nd fc innings. When lara was selected for the WI, that should have been the end on logie or keith athurtoin's test career. Yes logie dug us out of a hole in the test versus england in 1990.......... and was instrumental in the 91 series win versus the Aussies but who's to say that lara may not have scored twice the amount of logie's 98....and i think everyone acknowledges that BCL was the most steely of the 90s batsmen. Accirding to Daryll Culinan and Jacques Kallis, the man who could do the impossible.

I'd go as far as saying that logie's selection and lara's non selection contributed to their very frosty relationship, and of course the north south, QPCC against all poor cricketers rivalry would have played a part as well

All who say Viv wasn't technical show me one single tape where majority of Viv's front foot shots ( including across his stumps and playing balls on or outside off to leg) where the bat doesn't come down close to the pad. Much closer than any current WI batsman who reaches for the ball and poses if lucky enough to connect.

In reply to Jumpstart

I believe if Logie had played in Barbados his career might have taken another path as a batsman. At the oval Logie had put his head down and bat sharing a double hundred partnership or near it with Dujon. This is still very early days for Logie and Richardson was not established as yet. The next match it is said that Richards told Lloyd if Richardson not playing then I am not playing. Lloyd told Logie to make two laps and come back and tell them your stomach hurting. Richardson went on to make a hundred at Kensington.
This might have had an effect on young Logie. Logie went on to be a team favorite. Logie said a young Lara had no respect. Viv was great, Lara was great. Both were far from perfect.

In reply to methodic

Didn't know that but I heard from one who's close to one of the horse's mouth that Logie wasn't feeling well and part of his fitness test was looking up in the sun.
i hear he said I'm not feeling well already and not seeing well when looking up and if I don't play it is an opportunity for another youth so it is ok.
Richie got an early chance (dropped) but the rest is history. Guess 'Islander's' felt they weren't getting a fair shake then. Roberts was booted because he stood
up about Richie not getting enough nets in India '83.

In reply to methodic

Dude. When Gus Logie first came on the scene, he was a beloved, exciting cricketer

He had shots for days, was this little guy who had no fear and a swashbuckling style.

When he played at Sabina Park the crowd went crazy for him. He was so electric in the field. This was before his short leg specialty position. In those days, your best fielder would field in the covers and that was Logie’s position.

He never quite fulfilled the promise of his early years, but he largely kept his place in the WI team because the team kept winning. It was said that in those days, it was harder to be dropped from the WI team than to make the WI team. And for some players, it was impossible to make the team no matter how they performed domestically.

Logie also played a few valuable lower order innings in partnership with Jeff Dujon and that made him even more invaluable to Lloyd. Then he revolutionized the short leg position and that interestingly and arguably became his legacy.

In reply to Chrissy

This is what Everton Weekes said to my Antiguan brother when asked, Why was Viv selected ahead of Jim Allen
Sr Everton; when Jim was scoring the occasional hundred, Viv was consistently scoring fifties, We are now seeing Viv scoring consistent hundreds and Jim is scoring the occasional fifty.
Year was middle 70's over dinner at the Calgary Tower.

I never heard or knew who Jim Allen was until that night.

In reply to methodic

I've heard that. I've also heard wes hall and gary sobers stating that lara was one of the most respectful WI players. In addition, there's a lot more at play in the in tensions between logie and lara. Lara played for QPCC, the most elite club in trinidad. logie comes from Sobo village, one of the poorest areas in the country. It is possible, and i'd like to state that its probable, that lara had the town/ west mentality that he deserved a place on the WI team as he was the better player.

Secondly, lara was made to feel uncomfortable in the WI dressing room. Viv, it appears, was openly hostile, most of the time. In lara's unofficial autobiography, the author alleges a senior WI player said lara was only on the team because Joey Carew was a selector. Carl Hooper, who never averaged over 40 as a batsman, even though he was more talented than lara, was never made to feel that way

Under viv, all the insecurities and tensions that underline Caribbean societies reemerged, those that were dormant under lloyd

In reply to methodic

Also, that Lara and Viv Richards only shared one partnership together and only in an ODI is totally absurd. A talent as outrageous as Lara deserved to be mentored(which Dessie Haynes did) not bullied. Especially not when there are players who in any other team or with any other captain, would NOT have been picked in front of him