Bad batting or brilliant bowling?

In reply to Jumpstart

Ok we not going to agree.....on another note would you consider Ian Bishop to be an all time great...if not why not??

In reply to CCW

ian bishop would have been great no doubt. he was the second or third fastest west indian to 100 wickets and actually was curtly ambrose's strike partner on both the 92/93 winter tour of australia and the pakistan visit in to the WI 1993. he does not have the career length to be considered an all time great though, just like colin croft. bishop's average at career closing after 43 tests was 24, which is exceptional..unlike starc who averaged 36 after 45 tests and still has not gotten his avg under 25, which usually is the benchmark for fast bowling greatness

In reply to Jumpstart

In reply to Jumpstart

So finally you've inadvertently agreed with me ....strike bowler, 1st change or not Gilmour could not be included in an all time best OZ X1....both he an Starc are left swing bowlers an if Starc played with Lille an Thompson he would have been 1st change also....by the same token you could not include Bish in an all time best WindiesX1 for the reasons you've already alluded to an yet even he played way longer than Gilmour!!!

Many of these batsmen were out bowled between bat and pad. They were simply not tight enough in defense - this is something that a coach such as Floyd Reifer should point out. They were very loose and open in their forward defensive shots

In reply to CCW

if starc played in lillee and thomson's days, he could not make the team homes. after 45 tests he was averaging 36. he would have lasted ten tests in that time. he looks great against mediocre opposition.......if you look at a minnow through a magnifying glass, it will look a lot bigger than it actually is. it is still a minnow though

In reply to Prako

I've been trying to tell this dude this since morning. Starc's average against india is 33, and he has only taken one five for against them. the majority of those tests have been in his home conditions. that's to tell you how mediocre he is against top teams

In reply to Jumpstart

Let's not forget swing bowlers averages tend to be higher cause above all they need conditions conducive to swing like overhead cloud or under lights with a pink ball or reverse swing with an older ball ....hot sun under a cloudless sky would not be ideal!

In reply to CCW

conditions being trash batsmen. as i told you, starc's average against india is 33....and he played the majority of his career against them in australia. and subcontinental batsmen traditionally find the aussie pitches the most alien. lets not confuse starc the odi bowler from starc the test bowler.

In reply to Jumpstart

So i notice you've gone off the original discussion which is Starc v Gilmour ..an now it's all about Starc anyhow eh!!..

In reply to CCW

i gone off topic? dude are you drunk. your argument is that the cummins/starc/boland trio is somehow better than the mcgrath/gillespie/brett lee combination and the original team-lillee/thomson/gilmour. i provided stats to show that starc is a mediocre bowler against top sides, which you clearly have trouble accepting even though its recorded in black and white.
glenn mcgrath averages 21 in tests eh patnas...lillee averages 23

In reply to culpepperboy

Substantive response. Thanks for this. Small island educated by any chance?

In reply to Jumpstart

I didn't mention Boland!!...if yuh clueless about the 3 i was referring to or yuh wasn't paying attention or maybe yuh just trying to muddy the water by including Boland....i dnt tek bluff bro i recognise an give yuh due respect fuh yuh knowledge but i got a lil knowledge myself so dnt tek me fuh a sc* nt !!

In reply to CCW

even if you include Hazlewood...cummins/starc/hazlewood still is not as good as lillee/thomson/gilmour or mcgrath/gillespie/lee. starc still averages above 25 against most top teams and and averages over 30 against india and pakistan in australia

In reply to culpepperboy

I’m right here agreeing with you. Some of those deliveries were simply unplayable. The wicket was doing the most and pink ball tends to swing later than the red ball. We saw several batsmen on both team’s got out lbw or bowled. Australia couldn’t manage 250 in either inning. Still I must say 27 not out is disgraceful. Somebody ought to have made more than 11. There were 7 ducks and 4 of those were Golden ducks…a man had 5 wickets for 7 at one point whilst another man had a hatrick…. It was tough batting on that wicket…not that it was a BAD wicket, just a true test wicket. Any batsman, Lara and Tendulkar included, would be tested on this wicket.

In reply to chantilly

i seriously doubt lara and tendulkar would have been bowled between bat and pad or lost their shape on the way to an lbw like how things panned out last night. i aint saying they would not have struggled. but if they didn't get them in an hour's time, bet yuh bottom dollar they would have scored hundreds

In reply to Jumpstart

Overall if yuh dealing with stats....both Cummins an Hazelwood have better ave & SR than both Lee an Gillespie...Starc ave is fractionally below Gillespie but SR is better ...would definitely have Cummins in front of Gillespie.....even though Lee's ave is relatively high he would edge out Cummins cause of his extra pace.....nevertheless Mcgrath/Lee/ Cummins.....Lillee/Thompson/Starc... so fuh me 2 out of the 3 make OZ best team of different eras.....its a matter of opinion but what is undeniable that OZ high class trio was up against possibly the WORSE Windies batting line up of ALL TIME!!

If I were a bowler of Starc's status I would not even consider getting West Indian batsmen out as a great feat in my career.

Yes the bowing was brilliant, but it has always been that way.
The West Indian batting on the other hand was atrocious, let us not forget that and should not be glossed over with excuses and simplistic statements.
Our batsmen cannot bat - That is a fact.

My next question is about the coach.
How does a guy with a 9.25 average in 12 test innings and a high score of 29 be the coach of a test team?
Only in the West Indies.
If this is not nepotism, I do not know what is.

In reply to CCW

I don’t seem to recall McGrath/ Gillespie and Lee losing a series at home together. Neither did Thomson/Lillee/Gilmour( Thomson did not play in the 79/80 series). This trio has lost thrice at home to both South Africa in 2016 and India in 2019 and 2022. Which goes back to my point about Mitchell Starc’s average against top teams. It is mediocre

What's in Starc's favour is being a left hander who can swing it....so if yuh looking to select a balanced attack he would have to be considered ....Gilmour doesn't make the cut for the reasons I've already alluded to!!

In reply to Jumpstart

an btw OZ losses that you mentioned was more to do with a relatively weak batting line by their standards.....much the same as what Windies is experiencing but obviously not nearly as bad.....a 3 test series with 75 being the highest individual score is testament to how the bowlers dominated!

In reply to CCW
rubbish....delorn johnson was a left hander bro


look at starc's stats against teams other than WI and sri lanka seeing that you're too lazy to actually read them
starc vs england....97 wickets in 42 innings at an avg of 27...only 4 five fors
starc vs india...66 wickets in 43 innings at 35 with one five for
starc vs south africa..47 wickets in 19 inning at n avg of 28
starc vs pakistan....54 wickets in 28 innings at 30(one five for)
starc vs nz.............37 wickets in 19 innings at 26 with one five for

de man is even crap against pakistan wo have a bipolar batting lineup.

In reply to CCW

hoss india chased 329 at brisbane in 2021 on a wearing pitch....the first loss at that ground since the west indies had beaten australia in 1988. mcgrath/lee/gillespie never lost at that ground....rubbish again. yuh boy starc the swinger went for 75 at an economy rate of 4.68 from the 16 trash overs he bowled

In reply to Jumpstart

you disappointing me....a wearing pitch does not contribute to swing ...that is seam!!....swing takes the pitch out of the equation cause it's movement in the air prior to pitching ...gosh dis is desperate stuff smfh!!!!....also i like the way you look fuh the worse of a man that has taken 400 test wickets an highlight it ....who allyuh is man????

In reply to CCW


starc averages almost 30 in england.....apparently are those not the conditions most conducive to swing bowling.. curtly ambrose said ignorance is endemic in west indies cricket. you're proof