@Jumpstart

Jumpy....

The argument that there is a "massive difference" relies on looking at the structures of exploitation. However, a strong counter argument can be made that this distinction is superficial. In reality, domestic servitude and systemic forced labor are two sides of the same coin, connected by the same economic drivers.

The distinction between "forced" and "almost forced" labor highlights a shared reliance on structural violence. The root cause is the same: the deliberate exploitation of human vulnerability for financial gain. Both systems strip away agency by weaponizing survival.

From the perspective of human rights and ethics, the "massive difference" vanishes. To the individual experiencing it, the psychological toll, the erasure of autonomy, and the physical exhaustion are identical. Labeling one as "domestic" and the other as "economic" simply categorizes the location of the abuse rather than its moral severity. Both systems treat human beings as capital rather than people.

References:

LeBaron, G. (Ed.). Researching Forced Labour in the Global Economy (Oxford University Press).

Allain, J. Slavery, Servitude, and Forced Labour in International Law (Oxford University Press).

@sgtdjones

homes.....i doubt that in Singapore, you had slave owners throwing people in servitude into vats of boiling solutions. that was a common method of punishment in the west indies(that is actually where the ole mas Jab Molassie comes from, the vengeful spirit of a slave who died in this form of punishment). . in the early 1900s, relatively recent history, a plantation owner's son in trinidad whipped two east indian women as punishment, one subsequently died from her wounds. In fact Brigitte Brereton, wo has been a professor of Caribbean history for almost five decades, wrote that physical violence against indentureds on the Trinidad plantations enjoyed customary, if not legal, sanction; and Indian workers, including some who had served out their contracts, were routinely beaten, cuffed and kicked by managers, overseers, sirdars (Indian foremen, the successors to the slave drivers).

@Jumpstart

Jumpy

Slavery had many similarities :

To force slaves and indentured "coolies" to work in 19th-century Singapore, owners, brokers, and labor syndicates (triads) combined economic entrapment with systemic, brutal physical violence.

While Caribbean masters used heavy leather whips, Singaporean masters used rattan canes or wooden roof tiles (shingles). "Shingling" involved repeatedly striking a laborer’s bare back or feet with a rigid wooden tile. This caused extreme swelling and skin splitting without leaving the long, deep lacerations of a whip, keeping the worker physically capable of returning to labor sooner.

Runaways or rebellious laborers were locked in tiny, cramped wooden cages or dark storage sheds on gambier and pepper plantations. They were kept in solitary confinement for days, stripped of clothing, and denied food and water under the tropical sun to serve as a visual warning to other laborers, many died during such ordeals.

 For organizers of labor strikes, thieves, or repeat escapees, the secret societies administered the ultimate sentence. taken to swamps to drown.

Coolies who tried to escape their debts or sabotage a plantation were hunted down by triad enforcers. Captured escapees were routinely stabbed, beaten to death.stuffed inside a heavy wicker basket used for carrying gambier leaves, weighted down with rocks, and thrown into the river or swamp to drown.

If a runaway was caught by the British colonial police instead of a triad, the law favored the master by criminalizing "breach of contract." The state punished these workers by placing them in iron gangs,chaining them together at the ankles and forcing them to clear tiger-infested swamps and build early Singaporean roads under military guard

The Boiling Cauldrons: Forced laborers (coolies) spent hours cutting down massive bundles of leaves, carrying them under the blistering tropical sun, and stuffing them into giant, boiling vats of water,unruly ones were boiled in such Cauldrons.The air inside the bangsal was thick with toxic smoke and scalding steam. Laborers suffered from constant respiratory illnesses, severe skin burns, and exhaustion.

Tigers:At the peak of the gambier boom in the 1840s and 1850s, it was estimated that tigers killed more than one plantation worker every single day. Laborers lived in absolute, paralyzing terror, trapped between the man-eating predators outside the camp and their brutal masters inside. Tigers quickly realized that the encamped, exhausted laborers were easy prey.

References:

The Malay Archipelago (1869)...Alfred Russel Wallace

The National Archives of Singapore historical accounts on coolies

 Munshi Abdullah's Accounts (1843/1849)

@sgtdjones

you need to post a link with a page number to that because I have found no evidence of Chinese laborers being thrown into vats of boiling solution. they had to work in basement conditions that were extremely hot and sometimes resulted in fatalities. Also the vast majority of the chinese laborers were just that, laborers, as in they owned a wage. Singapore came under the ambit of the crown in 1819, formally [part of the British Empire in 1824, ten years before the abolition of slavery in the empire and at the height of the anti slavery movement led by Wilberforce and others, so it is highly unlikely that the labor conditions would have been similar to slavery conditions( destruction of families through the sale of people as slaves, Enslaved people were legally the property of their masters, etc). Most of the chinese labourers came to singapore because they were indebted, and they worked until they could repay said debts. There was virtually no way a slave could pay his way out of slavery. Chinese labor in singapore wasn't even as brutal as indentureship in the west indies, where the vast majority of indentured laborers came from the most destitute parts of the Indian subcontinent(Bihar, Gujarat, Uttar Pradesh with a limited number from the more prosperous Tamil Nadu, and you can tell who had/has tamil roots by their last names), and once here, were subject to the discipline and constriction of the plantation and plantation society

@sgtdjones/stdjones

ditty for Grenadian fruit picker turn fake geologist😂

Lord Kitchener - Take You Meat Out Me Rice

@Che

I am not a geologist, that's your bestie sodden.

Are you still stuck on that nutmeg tree in Castries?😂😀

Jumpy....

Did you read where The Brits sent prisoners to Singapore.

 Munshi Abdullah's Accounts (1843/1849) noted their treatments with iron Chains on their feet plus clearing areas of swamps and jungles where Tigers roamed.

I spent about 6 months in Singapore their oil refineries : ExxonMobil: Spans two sites (Jurong and Pulau Ayer Chawan) that were originally built by Mobil (in 1966) and Esso (in 1970) before merging. Upgraded them for unattended operation.

The National Archives of Singapore Canning Rise, Singapore

It showed the Cauldron vats , and the triad that controlled them. The Brits wrote the history books , they chose to ignore such occurrences.

A widespread, terrifying urban legend in Singapore and Malaysia known as the bridge sacrifice myth, these victims were decapitated or thrown into boiling vats of concrete or large foundation cauldrons so their spirits would appease the earth gods and ensure the bridge would never collapse.Indian Coolies were put into a web cage filled with rocks and drowned.Some were eaten by tigers , the land and swamps they were clearing.

In my spare time I visited The National Archives of Singapore. A merger of two divisions that show the suffering of the coolies. I saw the treatment meted out to African slaves in Ghana and posted pictures of my visit ....someone deleted them overnight on this site.

Visit Singapore to see what happened to such unfortunate individuals talk to Bonny Tan, Senior Reference Librarian with the National Library of Singapore , if she is still there. You will be enlightened as I was.

Reference:

Munshi Abdullah's Accounts (1843/1849)

 Prisoners Their Own Warders (1899).

 Borneo and the Indian Archipelago: Marryat, F. (184

@sgtdjones

duide the brits sent prisoners to australia and new zealand, the french sent their prisoners to new caledonia in the south pacific. at no point were they slaves. if dais the argument you're using, people doing hard labor in golden grove right now are slaves, mandela was a slave on robben island etc

In my spare time I visited The National Archives of Singapore. A merger of two divisions that show the suffering of the coolies. I saw the treatment meted out to African slaves in Ghana and posted pictures of my visit ....someone deleted them overnight on this site.

Visit Singapore to see what happened to such unfortunate individuals talk to Bonny Tan, Senior Reference Librarian with the National Library of Singapore , if she is still there. You will be enlightened as I was.

i don't doubt you, but even on the national archives of singapore, a resource that is digitized, i don't see any reference to it

@Jumpstart

Did you notice what I said....Visit the National archives of Singapore...it will enlighten you.

Not everything is digitalized. Do as I did was privy to information that I was curious about.

The National Archives of Singapore (NAS) is partially digitized. While a vast collection of photographs, maps, audio-visual recordings, and government records can be accessed remotely, many physical, restricted, or copyrighted materials still require an on-site visit to view.Some original documents, fragile historical maps, or deteriorating microfilms are too delicate to be handled or run through mass-scanning machinery without risking irreparable damage.

 A large portion of archival records come from private donors or other depositing organizations. The NAS is legally bound by agreements that strictly prohibit public online publication without permission.

For restricted or undigitized materials, you can submit an online request via e-Request to view items in person at the Archives Reading Room (located at 1 Canning Rise). You will be charged for such services

@sgtdjones

the national archives is digitized. maybe the entire catalog isn't complete, but I would be very surprised if history as consequential as that isn't available online, especially as Singapore is one of the most studied places and with the sort of resources the have available to them. Mind you we do agree on one thing, that Caribbean and third world countries in general should focus on solutions more than excuses which they too often do, but if you're comparing Singapore and the West Indies, as do, you are dealing with distinct universes with very little in common. That Lee Kwan Yew could set himself as a textbook example shows you how ignorant he was about the rest of the world

@Jumpstart

I am comparing Singapore with no resources and brilliant leadership since Independence, Caribbean Countries with resources and lacking leadership still blaming colonialism .

Singapore currently a nominal GDP per capita of over $97,134, whereas the Caribbean region averages closer to $14,622.

We see the difference in various quality of life.

Singapore: The government a ruthless meritocracy where leadership roles are filled by top-tier professionals who are compensated competitively to prevent corruption.Improved the British system, did not change road names or statues.

The Caribbean: Many islands continue to grapple with post-colonial identity crises, inefficient government bureaucracy, and political patronage.

Singapore: Its people as its only real resource, built a world-leading, hyper-competitive education system focused on math, science, and technical skills. its past is irrelevant it is focusing on the future.

The Caribbean: A significant skilled labor shortage and high emigration rates of educated professionals (brain drain) to North America and Europe

Singapore: Ranked among the least corrupt countries globally.

The Caribbean: Struggles with the rule of law , including high levels of local crime, gang violence, and bureaucratic red tape, deters foreign investment and decrease the overall standard of living .

Singapore lacked any raw materials and had to import freshwater

The Caribbean: resources (minerals, oil, agriculture, and pristine beaches) has often created a "resource curse"

Caribbean enjoys unique cultural strengths, global influence in sports and arts, resource-rich Guyana, the regional disparity highlights a crucial lesson: long-term prosperity requires visionary leadership that builds institutions, not just an extraction of natural resources and such is sadly lacking.

Lee Kwang Yew; how ignorant he was about the rest of the world matters not, he created something the rest of the world needed and envious about.

@Jumpstart

Britain ended the slave trade and patrolled around 'slave ports' from 1807. That's 12yrs before colonizing Singapore. I'd then like to know how can there be a comparison between them and The Caribbean in terms of extracted and stolen wealth.

...............

Is it so difficult for one to grasp I am comparing Singapore and the caribbean since independence.

Look at the difference , Singapore had nothing . Singapore's total population stands at 6.11 million

Singapore was legally expelled from the Federation of Malaysia on August 9, 1965, following less than two years of a difficult and politically tense union that began in September 1963.This forced the tiny, resource-poor island into sudden independence, forcing Lee Kuan Yew to publicly announce the split in an emotional, nationally televised address he famously described as his "moment of anguish."

Singapore’s nominal GDP sits at roughly $547 Billion USD, while Malaysia's is $422 Billion USD.

Notice how Caribbean nationals focus on colonialisms', Singapore focus is on education for its population.

@sgtdjones

and that is what i am getting at . lee kwan yew had the freedom to pursue his political and economic agenda unmolested due to his friends in the developed world, who were more than willing to overlook his trampling of democracy(locking up the leader of the communist party, his main opposition for over 20 years) and the racial demographics of his country, which played well into his favor. If lee kwan yew was dark brown to ebony like many Tamil people on the island with his last name like a typical tamil name like Murugan or his last name was Hussain(thus associating him with the Malaysian community), he would have never been ale to make it. Every major caribbean leader has had to manage demographics either slightly less complex than that, like in Jamaica or infinitely more complex than that, like in TT, Guyana and Suriname, and several have attempted to follow Yew's leadings with investment in technological education, investment and heavily subsidized education at all levels(TT participation in post secondary education is over 60%, which is far beyond the global average). it has not worked. yew never had to face a political election where the odds weren't heavily stacked in his favor or the threat of sanctions for undermining the electoral process. That could never, ever happen in the west indies

Another often less discussed reason for Singapore's rise is that in the 1960s and 70s, South east asia was seen as the next economic giant, especially based on the succes of Japan, Thailand and the rising of Indonesia. Companies like Phillips, texas instruments, hewlett pacard, etc began investing based on Singapore being in the middle of south east asia, and establishing manufacturing or assembly facilities would seriously decrease the cost of transportation to other large and emerging south asian markets like the above. cheap labor was a massive factor as well.

@Jumpstart

@Brerzerk

Ok Jumpy

I am going to start a new thread tomorrow.... colonialism and leaders in the caribbean vs Lee Kuan Yew

Let's hear your comments then...😎