In reply to dravid
Neither are the players. What's your point?
Yes I and all of us work for money but I don't demand an increase when I know it's not justified.
Neither are the players. What's your point?
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HEADLINE: WIPA: Players will sign contract
HEADLINE: WIPA: Players will sign contract
Sat, May 5, '07 at 11:31 AM
In reply to dravid
Let's see, the WICB.
Case dismissed...now pack up your things and go home.
whoelse in the caribbean make that much money on a loseing cause.
Let's see, the WICB.
Case dismissed...now pack up your things and go home.
Sat, May 5, '07 at 2:29 PM
In reply to dravid
You are 100% right in your accessment, they should all get a flat rate and be paid incentives consumate with their individual performance, then we would see people working hard to make their money. These under achievers we the highest paid team in the WC, 180K being the minimun and BCL at the top with 250K and we could not even make the semis and finish 6th. Pay them for talent not base on potential. In any other business if you don't perform you get fired, in the WI you don't perform and you get pay increase. This is a sure formula for destruction!
You are 100% right in your accessment, they should all get a flat rate and be paid incentives consumate with their individual performance, then we would see people working hard to make their money. These under achievers we the highest paid team in the WC, 180K being the minimun and BCL at the top with 250K and we could not even make the semis and finish 6th. Pay them for talent not base on potential. In any other business if you don't perform you get fired, in the WI you don't perform and you get pay increase. This is a sure formula for destruction!
Sat, May 5, '07 at 2:38 PM
In reply to bunnyb
Who was the highest paid board in the WC? How well did they perform?
These under achievers we the highest paid team in the WC, 180K being the minimun and BCL at the top with 250K and we could not even make the semis and finish 6th.
Who was the highest paid board in the WC? How well did they perform?
Sat, May 5, '07 at 2:38 PM
In reply to sabina
Are you sure about what you say, Premier League, NBA, NFL ectra, don't run their business to give the players all the money, profit is there bottom line or they would go bankrupt. Players are also compensated consumate to their talent, but the OWNERS makes money of unbelievably proportion from marketing items, TV rights, concessions, Parking etc. Get the fact before talking as its early to obtain!
Are you sure about what you say, Premier League, NBA, NFL ectra, don't run their business to give the players all the money, profit is there bottom line or they would go bankrupt. Players are also compensated consumate to their talent, but the OWNERS makes money of unbelievably proportion from marketing items, TV rights, concessions, Parking etc. Get the fact before talking as its early to obtain!
Sat, May 5, '07 at 2:38 PM
In reply to sabina
Are you sure about what you say, Premier League, NBA, NFL ectra, don't run their business to give the players all the money, profit is there bottom line or they would go bankrupt. Players are also compensated consumate to their talent, but the OWNERS makes money of unbelievably proportion from marketing items, TV rights, concessions, Parking etc. Get the fact before talking as its early to obtain!
Are you sure about what you say, Premier League, NBA, NFL ectra, don't run their business to give the players all the money, profit is there bottom line or they would go bankrupt. Players are also compensated consumate to their talent, but the OWNERS makes money of unbelievably proportion from marketing items, TV rights, concessions, Parking etc. Get the fact before talking as its early to obtain!
Sat, May 5, '07 at 2:43 PM
In reply to bunnyb
The successful sports leagues you mentioned spend a lot higher percentage of their revenue on their players than does the WICB.
Are you sure about what you say, Premier League, NBA, NFL ectra, don't run their business to give the players all the money, profit is there bottom line or they would go bankrupt.
The successful sports leagues you mentioned spend a lot higher percentage of their revenue on their players than does the WICB.
Sat, May 5, '07 at 2:47 PM
In reply to Zikdaman I have no problem with players being paid, for performing - are our players performing and making us proud?
Sat, May 5, '07 at 2:54 PM
In reply to bunnyb
Now try and get your mind away from your emotions and let's conduct some analysis based on logic. Is the WICB getting revenue from the actions of the players?
I have no problem with players being paid, for performing - and making us proud?
Now try and get your mind away from your emotions and let's conduct some analysis based on logic. Is the WICB getting revenue from the actions of the players?
Sat, May 5, '07 at 3:02 PM
In reply to Zikdaman
If truth be known, both players and WICB should be working for free!! And please note I do not get emotional, I am totally detached, and that is why I can aproach this thing objectively. I think some of us get too emotional on the blog and should be careful or heart attack or stroke. Some of the venom that is spewed out here is unbelievable.
If truth be known, both players and WICB should be working for free!! And please note I do not get emotional, I am totally detached, and that is why I can aproach this thing objectively. I think some of us get too emotional on the blog and should be careful or heart attack or stroke. Some of the venom that is spewed out here is unbelievable.
Sat, May 5, '07 at 9:27 PM
In reply to Zikdaman
My point was already stated,are you that dense that you cannot comprehend as yet.
For your sake I will re-emphasis myself in different words as follows:
1-The WIPA needs to go,as long as we have this union things will never change.
2-The players are making more money than their performance warrants.
3-The players should be paid flat rate with added performance incentives.
4-All parties involved need to display maturity(including you)and find the best possible
solution for the crisis at hand.
Now you read carefully,read again then pack up and leave you are only flattering yourself.
Roger!!!
My point was already stated,are you that dense that you cannot comprehend as yet.
For your sake I will re-emphasis myself in different words as follows:
1-The WIPA needs to go,as long as we have this union things will never change.
2-The players are making more money than their performance warrants.
3-The players should be paid flat rate with added performance incentives.
4-All parties involved need to display maturity(including you)and find the best possible
solution for the crisis at hand.
Now you read carefully,read again then pack up and leave you are only flattering yourself.
Roger!!!
Sat, May 5, '07 at 11:17 PM
I can't believe the amount of vitriol that has been spouted on this and other forum topics about this issue.
I think everyone agrees that the players' performances have been substandard and they need to be incentivised (on the pay front) to change their ways. And if the figures on this board for player WC earnings are true, then WICB are clearly a bunch of idiots and the players got the better of them on that one.
However, based on everything that I have read and heard, there is no doubt in my mind that the following is true:
- WICB originally confirmed to WIPA that the England tour fell outside their standard pay agreement, and given this WIPA had every right to expect additional pay for it.
- WICB completely ignored WIPA's repeated calls (last 4 months) to discuss the terms for the tour.
- WICB then changed their stance on the status of the England tour without supplying the reasoning for doing so to WIPA.
- Someone is being economical with the truth about the status of the arbitration, and based on the public (supposedly verbatim) quotes from Aanensen, Simmons and Ramnarine, one can only conclude that the guilty party is the WICB.
And this kind of treatment/behaviour is not restricted to interaction with locals. Does anyone remember how WICB treated the old team physio - Dennis Waite?
My question is, how can WICB expect to get the players to perform their best when there are such strong grounds for mistrust between WICB and WIPA? Which one of us would continue to work for, or indeed give our best to, an organisation that tries to wiggle out of every pay agreement it makes and distorts the truth in public about issues that are a matter of written record?
Given the above, and ignoring the amounts of pay that have been agreed to date for all previous events, all that Ramnarine has been doing in this dispute is trying to do the right thing for the players within the terms of the agreements that they have with the WICB. Those of the WIPA communications made public that I have seen to date have been quite clear and reasoned and not at all inflamatory.
It is the WICB that has established bad agreements, has been using inflamatory arguments and is now acting in bad faith - and in European or American law their actions would be seen as a breach of contract - or grounds for a lawsuit for constructive dismissal.
I think WIPA scores a "win win" by signing the oontracts "subject to the outcome of the arbitration". By doing so they have not really changed their stance - they are portraying themselves as the good guys - acting in the interest of cricket. They could have gone on strike but they have not. The point is that if the arbitation rules in their favour, which seems likely if WICB don't get their act together, then they win (or they win the right to fight with WICB for the pay they have been awarded). If it rules against them then they have not lost.
It's all this peripheral rubbish that detracts from the real problems, which are:
- How do we reform the WICB to make it accountable to the region for its performance or lack thereof (a bad workman always blames his tools)?
- How do we ensure that the region's cricket talent is spotted and developed to its fullest potential?
- How do we incentivise the players to perform to their potential when representing the region?
- How do we instil discipline in the players and get them to understand and do what's needed to get us back to the top of the sport internationally and stay there?
Those questions have been and will continue to be the subject of many future debates.....
I think everyone agrees that the players' performances have been substandard and they need to be incentivised (on the pay front) to change their ways. And if the figures on this board for player WC earnings are true, then WICB are clearly a bunch of idiots and the players got the better of them on that one.
However, based on everything that I have read and heard, there is no doubt in my mind that the following is true:
- WICB originally confirmed to WIPA that the England tour fell outside their standard pay agreement, and given this WIPA had every right to expect additional pay for it.
- WICB completely ignored WIPA's repeated calls (last 4 months) to discuss the terms for the tour.
- WICB then changed their stance on the status of the England tour without supplying the reasoning for doing so to WIPA.
- Someone is being economical with the truth about the status of the arbitration, and based on the public (supposedly verbatim) quotes from Aanensen, Simmons and Ramnarine, one can only conclude that the guilty party is the WICB.
And this kind of treatment/behaviour is not restricted to interaction with locals. Does anyone remember how WICB treated the old team physio - Dennis Waite?
My question is, how can WICB expect to get the players to perform their best when there are such strong grounds for mistrust between WICB and WIPA? Which one of us would continue to work for, or indeed give our best to, an organisation that tries to wiggle out of every pay agreement it makes and distorts the truth in public about issues that are a matter of written record?
Given the above, and ignoring the amounts of pay that have been agreed to date for all previous events, all that Ramnarine has been doing in this dispute is trying to do the right thing for the players within the terms of the agreements that they have with the WICB. Those of the WIPA communications made public that I have seen to date have been quite clear and reasoned and not at all inflamatory.
It is the WICB that has established bad agreements, has been using inflamatory arguments and is now acting in bad faith - and in European or American law their actions would be seen as a breach of contract - or grounds for a lawsuit for constructive dismissal.
I think WIPA scores a "win win" by signing the oontracts "subject to the outcome of the arbitration". By doing so they have not really changed their stance - they are portraying themselves as the good guys - acting in the interest of cricket. They could have gone on strike but they have not. The point is that if the arbitation rules in their favour, which seems likely if WICB don't get their act together, then they win (or they win the right to fight with WICB for the pay they have been awarded). If it rules against them then they have not lost.
It's all this peripheral rubbish that detracts from the real problems, which are:
- How do we reform the WICB to make it accountable to the region for its performance or lack thereof (a bad workman always blames his tools)?
- How do we ensure that the region's cricket talent is spotted and developed to its fullest potential?
- How do we incentivise the players to perform to their potential when representing the region?
- How do we instil discipline in the players and get them to understand and do what's needed to get us back to the top of the sport internationally and stay there?
Those questions have been and will continue to be the subject of many future debates.....
Sun, May 6, '07 at 4:23 AM
In reply to redbaron
When does two wrongs equate to right? If the father is a career criminal, does it follow that the offsprings are also criminal-minded? You talk about clueless, based on your response you have removed all doubts about your simple-mindedness.
And further, the inference from your response is that the cricketers are a bunch of mindless goons who are merely aping the idiots that comprise the WICB. Maybe they are, and if so, I stand corrected.
When does two wrongs equate to right? If the father is a career criminal, does it follow that the offsprings are also criminal-minded? You talk about clueless, based on your response you have removed all doubts about your simple-mindedness.
And further, the inference from your response is that the cricketers are a bunch of mindless goons who are merely aping the idiots that comprise the WICB. Maybe they are, and if so, I stand corrected.
Sun, May 6, '07 at 7:47 AM
In reply to dravid
A typically silly statement coming straight from the emotional part of your brain and not the part that processes logic. Without unions, employers most times get to take advantage of workers. This is why it is best for players to bargain collectively and use the power of many if they are to get fair treatment. Every major sports league in the US has to deal with a players' union. It doesn't prevent the league from being successful. SO tell me, why can unions work in the US but not in the caribbean? You hate your caribbean brethren that much?
The players don't pick themselves. WIPA doesn't pick the players. What is preventing the WICB from picking players who "perform?" They have full access to every cricketer in the region. It is their responsibility to pick players who will perform.
They are. They actualy get paid more if they win.
Nothing you have written thus far indicates that you have a clue as to the solution to the crisis.
1-The WIPA needs to go,as long as we have this union things will never change.
A typically silly statement coming straight from the emotional part of your brain and not the part that processes logic. Without unions, employers most times get to take advantage of workers. This is why it is best for players to bargain collectively and use the power of many if they are to get fair treatment. Every major sports league in the US has to deal with a players' union. It doesn't prevent the league from being successful. SO tell me, why can unions work in the US but not in the caribbean? You hate your caribbean brethren that much?
2-The players are making more money than their performance warrants.
The players don't pick themselves. WIPA doesn't pick the players. What is preventing the WICB from picking players who "perform?" They have full access to every cricketer in the region. It is their responsibility to pick players who will perform.
3-The players should be paid flat rate with added performance incentives.
They are. They actualy get paid more if they win.
4-All parties involved need to display maturity(including you)and find the best possible solution for the crisis at hand.
Nothing you have written thus far indicates that you have a clue as to the solution to the crisis.