by DR RUDI WEBSTER
During the late seventies and the eighties, the people of the West Indies enjoyed a special sense of pride and achievement and a remarkable enrichment of their self-worth as the West Indies team conquered all before them and dominated world cricket for over fifteen years. That dominance started during World Series Cricket when Kerry Packer and his creative and pioneering team of administrators and technicians, and Clive Lloyd and his talented West Indians changed forever the way cricket was conceived, organized, played and presented to the public.
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HEADLINE: Same hymn sheet please
May 13, 2007, 6:55:36 AM
May 13, 2007, 7:04:23 AM
In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com
The needed changes in the structure and performance of the Board will not occur until the current crop of members step aside (bar a couple of the new people). Most on the Board do not have WI cricket development as their primary goal, and until everyone on the Board has that goal, our cricket will not advance.
And the players will not - and should not - trust the Board until there is significant change in its composition and structure. As a result, they will always feel that the Board members do not care about them.
May 13, 2007, 7:05:54 AM
I have often said that if I had a free hand to improve the performance of a professional sports team I would start with the committee or board. I would try to get members to do honest self-examinations, attempt to heal puffed up egos and unhealthy attitudes and to instill correct values and beliefs. After, I would move on to the coaches and players.
Recently, I asked a player what he thought the Board’s most important values were. He said, “First, ego, power and control; second, survival, status and recognition; third, money; fourth, responsibility to sponsors and the public; and way down the list, cricket matters and responsibility to the players!”
When the same question about the players was put to a board member, he said, “The players’ first important priority is money and status, closely followed by off-field activities. Next is power and control. Cricket matters, on-field activities and performance are way down the list. And responsibility to the public and sponsors trail everything else.”
Recently, I asked a player what he thought the Board’s most important values were. He said, “First, ego, power and control; second, survival, status and recognition; third, money; fourth, responsibility to sponsors and the public; and way down the list, cricket matters and responsibility to the players!”
When the same question about the players was put to a board member, he said, “The players’ first important priority is money and status, closely followed by off-field activities. Next is power and control. Cricket matters, on-field activities and performance are way down the list. And responsibility to the public and sponsors trail everything else.”
This is great - responsibility to the public? The WICB is responsible to no one or so they think.
May 13, 2007, 7:06:27 AM
In reply to dcbreds
Great stuff from Rudy!!
May 13, 2007, 7:10:21 AM
In reply to Chrissy
I agree but we have had discussions on this, and you know that none of these changes are gonna occur. Some believe that they have a God-given right to be on the Board, and no one should try to force them out.
I am so frustrated that these people actually believe that they are accountable to no one. The local elections are a farce. That is why this Board will not get a dollar from me until there is significant change. If everyone in the region does the same thing (don't support WICB events) over a two month period, it will force the changes necessary.
May 13, 2007, 7:52:24 AM
In reply to dcbreds Dr Webster is adding his voice to a growing list of prominent Cricket enthusiasts...Do we the public, WILL we the public add our voices too and demand a shake up and some transparency?
I repeat...this is the perfect time to address these outstanding matters surrounding our cricket and we must not allow the current tour to distract us from that goal. If we beat England, I fear that the public will be fooled into thinking that all is well at the board level...and that would be a travesty.
May 13, 2007, 8:17:44 AM
In reply to powen001
led by three distinguished Caribbean jurists - Saunders, Lucky and Simmons.
May 13, 2007, 8:41:58 AM
Recently, I asked a player what he thought the Board’s most important values were. He said, “First, ego, power and control; second, survival, status and recognition; third, money; fourth, responsibility to sponsors and the public; and way down the list, cricket matters and responsibility to the players!”
Seems like a (state) bureaucracy following postcolonial principles to me - Why can't those in Mona who work and improve such structures help - Always clear to me that it was - :lol:
May 13, 2007, 8:49:40 AM
In reply to CaribbeanCricket.com
yawn...
May 13, 2007, 9:12:15 AM
In reply to powen001
My observation attending Church:
a) when we have no hymnal and dont know the Hymn, we move our lips in silence just so the public would think we knoweth it all
b) those of us in this ignorance appear Sunday after Sunday without a Hymnal.
Everything remains the same because those who have the authority to sing dont even know what they are singing and the SIN is they care not to know.
IDLE $hithounds!
May 13, 2007, 9:29:38 AM
I believe the WI must form a new Board, not try to change the existing
one. Question, was Webster not responsible for the Academy? If yes then he
also contributed to the downward spiral.
May 13, 2007, 9:33:32 AM
In reply to Dreama
You should not blame without evidence. I recall there are letters upon letters from Rudi to the WICB insisting on the continuation of this academy but to no avail.
May 13, 2007, 9:53:07 AM
In reply to Dreama Heard you Chrissy but Dreama! This is the same Rudi that was lamenting that the board had the requirements from him for the continuation of the academy.HE stated just before his hospitalization that he was the most shocked and disappointed person when he got zero response from the board and the academy was left dying in the wilderness , dying of thirst.
This is the same board that is now talking about academies again...but it is painfully obvious that their wickedness had little to do with cash flow and more to do with targetting the outspoken Rudi Webster.
Thats my sincere opinion, so from where I stand he is not to blame and you would be falling into the trap set by the board to deflect on to others who are willing to oppose their collective skullduggery from time to time.
May 13, 2007, 10:11:32 AM
In reply to frangela
There was a group brought in to evaluate the school, This Webster gave
them hell, he tried to obstruct the task force in the end there was even a
murder charge under Webster's rule. You want facts I can did it up, I keep
a cricket file.
May 13, 2007, 10:15:10 AM
In reply to Dreama OK..you seem to have info I was not privy to...but to be fair why would he object to a "task force" if they were properly sanctioned? I think that we are both proving the point that some high handedness and disrespect was meted out to Rudi and it sounds like he was not consulted prior to the task force either.
By all means let the cat out because this is the first time I am hearing this stuff.
May 13, 2007, 10:15:51 AM
Societal and organizational structure and operational processes within institutions are often connected -
it is important to recognize that individuals do not exist outside the prevailing social and cultural conditions. Social and cultural phenomena, such as religious ideas, political conflicts and economic interests (exists among us), become part of every individual's psyche through the influence of identification with role models (Yep that includes the great players too, except Sobers) . . . .Organizations (The Board)then become arenas where wider social dynamics. . . are acted out. Different organizations may had different psychostructures, for instance different configurations allow different displays of emotion (2 from each territory?), different manifestations of disagreement and conflict (Board approves captain), different outlets for aggression and solidarity (Who told the players what the coach said). Yiannis Gabriel-The Tanaka Business School
Imperial College
Imperial College
The Board has always been stuctured to support the status quo and to facilitate the insularity and divisiveness we see on this board :(
May 13, 2007, 10:22:06 AM
In reply to powen001
Note I stated in the beginning the Board is in need of reformation
not re-structuring. That said Webster ran an abomination, young men
had prefer to learn on the job than to learn from the academy, even
the board had difficulty getting players once they were enrolled.
Without refreshing my memory of Webster's rule I still maintain my
original statement, he contributed to the spiral.
May 13, 2007, 10:40:59 AM
In reply to Dreama Point taken.
reformation indeed.
Local associations need a ground swell of one common message to their presidents. We are not playing ball with the status quo. Hopefully in my lifetime. I for one will never be comfy until this reform takes place at board level.
May 13, 2007, 10:41:54 AM
In reply to powen001
By all means let the cat out because this is the first time I am hearing this stuff.
The Task Force was Australians cannot remember the names and I want to say
a student, or recent graduate was R. Hinds but I am not 100% about the latter.
The long and short of it is true the Board is terrible, but why put good money
on bad.
May 13, 2007, 10:48:08 AM
In reply to Dreama
The long and short of it is true the Board is terrible, but why put good money
on bad.
on bad.
And this sir is exactly WHY we on this board and several voices of Branker, Garner etc are crying out...why would we want to leave the physical manifestations of our commitment to our cricket (these Stadia) in the hands of bungling,non transparent,accountable to no one fellas/ladies.
BTW..
type [ q u o te] before the copied piece. then type [ / qu ote ] again to effect the quotation. I learnt how to do it the hard way...but y watch u struggle with it.
May 13, 2007, 10:58:50 AM
In reply to dcbreds
If everyone in the region does the same thing (don't support WICB events) over a two month period, it will force the changes necessary
The above is exactly true but is it a reality. The simple answer is no.
Dr.Webster is well aware of the term 'Fractionate'. He was assiciated with the WICB in the past and should know.
The WICB never answered to anybody but themselves and never will as long as the ICC recognises them as the governing body of cricket in the caribbean.
It is all a lot of hot air that was discussed hundreds of times before. This is nothing new.
May 13, 2007, 11:04:35 AM
In reply to powen001
My Secretary showed me, when I need a distraction I come here
it is in between deals that I post, doubt I would take the time.
It is here or the Lawn, except the neighbors catch me talking to my
self.
May 13, 2007, 11:05:23 AM
In reply to Star
Dr.Webster is well aware of the term 'Fractionate'. He was assiciated with the WICB in the past and should know.
The WICB never answered to anybody but themselves and never will as long as the ICC recognises them as the governing body of cricket in the caribbean.
It is all a lot of hot air that was discussed hundreds of times before. This is nothing new.
The WICB never answered to anybody but themselves and never will as long as the ICC recognises them as the governing body of cricket in the caribbean.
It is all a lot of hot air that was discussed hundreds of times before. This is nothing new.
I know that you are correct but being an optimist I am hoping that we wrong and change comes b4 Australia gets here in 2008.
May 13, 2007, 11:24:28 AM
In reply to powen001
I am all for getting rid of the WICB, but I must also be realistic about certain things.
Any suggestions on how to bring about these changes? Where to start, who to approach?
May 13, 2007, 11:32:10 AM
In reply to Star cleaning house calls for good men in possession of information to expose or threaten to expose those who are part of the cancer of the WICB. this appears to be the only way that these characters will walk away, fear of being exposed as bad for good governance.
A charter of accountability to us the Public would be nice and would only be possible if a partnership with regional governments is forged. The Private company act protects them from sayin squat to us and this has been their main weapon. Of course ICC will not get involved with internal affairs...but they really should for the survival of the entire collective make some valid input about best practices and have some psychometric tests as prerequisites for assisting with the selection of best persons to sit on cricket boards.
just brain storming I admit but those come to mind immediately as priorities
May 13, 2007, 12:54:10 PM
Well for a very long time now I have been saying that " FISH DONT ROTTEN FROM THE TAIL UP ."
Hopefully we will see some changes .
As I have stated , let me use the word ENTITY , because if the WICB is restructured , there must be a name change . THE ENTITY MUST BE STREAMLINED .
As I see it the main problem with the WICB is that the Regional Board Presidents are the main obstacles of Change and innovation . THEIR POWER MUST BE CURBED . THEY MUST ONLY BE IN AN ADVISORY CAPACITY .
Frankly , there should be one Entity with two departments , a Cricket Department to look after all matters pertaining to Cricket , composed of 6 former players , representing the 6 area territories .
Then there should be the Financial Department dealing with ALL money matters , Promotion Advertisment , Sponsors TV Rights etc . This Department would be staffed by persons with MBA'S , ACCOUNTANTS ETC . Also a couple Lawyers .
As I HAVE STATED SEVERAL TIMES ON THIS MB THERE MUST BE A PERSONNEL INVENTORY OF ALL PERSONS WORKING AT FACTORY ROAD IN ANTIGUA .
It is my impression that at Factory Road , there are some square pegs in Round holes .
Within 3 months of being in control , The Public must have a 5 year development plan .
We will then be able to ascertain whether progress is made or not made with regard to
stated goals .
BTW , TOTAL TRANSPARENCY , TOTAL
ACCOUNTABILITY , AND TERM LIMITATIONS MUST BE AT THE CENTERPIECE OF
THIS RESTRUCTUIRING OR NEW ENTITY .
May 13, 2007, 1:17:57 PM
In reply to frangela
what did the academy produce?
May 13, 2007, 1:23:15 PM
In reply to Chrissy
Great stuff from Rudy!!
Do you agree with the Board's view of the players?
May 13, 2007, 1:45:49 PM
In reply to powen001
I repeat...this is the perfect time to address these outstanding matters surrounding our cricket and we must not allow the current tour to distract us from that goal. If we beat England, I fear that the public will be fooled into thinking that all is well at the board level...and that would be a travesty.
That is exactly what will happen. Everyone will think that everything is OK and everyone will get quiet again. If we do not act this time, then I fear that this will be the last chance to change this incompetent organisation.
May 13, 2007, 1:47:31 PM
In reply to Star
The above is exactly true but is it a reality. The simple answer is no.
What you think cannot happen - that the entire Caribbean will not support WICB events or that WICB will not change even if it happens.
My point is simple. Show them that we are no longer going to accept what they mete out and see whether this will force change. We have everything to win and nothing to lose.
May 13, 2007, 4:48:20 PM
First of all Rudi was thick with this same Board until they closed the Academy. Secondly, the WI Team started its upward trend before Kerry Packer. It started after the 5-1 trashing by Australia. Thirdly Webster has not told anyone here anything we don't all know and have discussed for years.
And finally, I will repeat for the fourth time - Publish the names, email addresses, phone numbers and addresses of all the WICB members and let's hound them out of town. The pie is too sumptuous and they will not go willingly.
May 13, 2007, 4:57:33 PM
Easy to get rid of WICB
Each territory must apply to ICC.
To get this done, Fans from each territory must continually molest their local boards.
Simple!
May 13, 2007, 6:40:29 PM
In reply to POINT
Point, let me point something out to you and then ask you one question - Guyana cannot restructure or change the name of the WICB, neither can Barbados, T&T, Jamaica, the Windward or Leeward Islands.
Who therefore can restructure or change the name of the WICB? Let me give you a hint, they changed the name from WICBC to its current name. Get the POINT?
May 13, 2007, 6:45:52 PM
In reply to powen001
True, and true and true, but do you really think these bastards care a hoot about outside folks?
They would have walk away a long time ago if they feared a tarnished reputation.
May 13, 2007, 6:46:26 PM
In reply to powen001
If memmory serves me right one of the OZ's on that same tasks force was Bennett King. Dont quote me on that though. The task force was not impressed with Rudi's methods saying it was doing more harm than good.
May 13, 2007, 6:51:04 PM
In reply to carl0002
You are correct.
May 13, 2007, 7:36:30 PM
In reply to carl0002
Point, DCBreds,Star
The common thread I decipher here is accountability...well lack of it. Rudi was thick you say and then when he did not get his way with the academy he spills the beans and cusses the board. Ok. What this says to me is that on too many occasions this scenario repeats. Someone out someone else and embarrasses them and they fight like school boys over this pretty girl name WI cricket. Question: When will the WICB be ever accountable to US??? We spend ,we support in cash and in Kind. This very board exists because of WI Cricket. I am tired of feeling helpless and you all made several telling points. Point I must agree that you have gone a step further with some detailed suggestions.
The Presidents of local boards must indeed be challenged in each territory.
Are we all members of the local associations? If so lets get cracking ( "if its meant to be its up to me").
When thursday comes...watch the ride...especially if we start cutting Englands tail.
May 13, 2007, 7:38:26 PM
In reply to Star
Listen very carefully , THE NAME WICB IS MUD ALL AROUND THE FREAKING WORLD .
The WICB has obtained this mark of Cain by being inept , incompetent , stupid ,arrogant and fighting with its own players .
the reputation that the WICB has currently makes it imperative that a name change must be done , IF THE ENTITY WANTS TO GET NEW SPONSORS , ETC .
You simply cannot pour new wine into old bottles . Also from a symbolic perspective , it would signal a break from the past . In essence if the entity is still to be called the WICB , most people are going to believe
that it is buisness as usual .
Most of the times that I write things , I just dont pull them out of a hat , even if some on this MB state that they dont like my style . I try to think and come up with solutions that could work . Hopefully you will now understand why there must be a name change . However regardless of your opinion , which I readily acknowledge , I aint about to be persuaded by anyone that the Entity still carry the name WICB .
May 13, 2007, 7:38:26 PM
In reply to Star
Listen very carefully , THE NAME WICB IS MUD ALL AROUND THE FREAKING WORLD .
The WICB has obtained this mark of Cain by being inept , incompetent , stupid ,arrogant and fighting with its own players .
the reputation that the WICB has currently makes it imperative that a name change must be done , IF THE ENTITY WANTS TO GET NEW SPONSORS , ETC .
You simply cannot pour new wine into old bottles . Also from a symbolic perspective , it would signal a break from the past . In essence if the entity is still to be called the WICB , most people are going to believe
that it is buisness as usual .
Most of the times that I write things , I just dont pull them out of a hat , even if some on this MB state that they dont like my style . I try to think and come up with solutions that could work . Hopefully you will now understand why there must be a name change . However regardless of your opinion , which I readily acknowledge , I aint about to be persuaded by anyone that the Entity still carry the name WICB .
May 13, 2007, 7:45:46 PM
In reply to POINT The name change is necessary; igive you that but only when fundamental reform has taken place that we all can see and support. them changing the name, as only they can to runaway from the bad rep they have created aint gonna cut it. It is indeed MUD and like Stalin has said...One cant help but think that "white people laughing at we" because WICB has unfortunately been regarded as a reasonable representation for how companies caribbean function and operate. \Quite sad when you think about it :roll:
May 14, 2007, 9:24:36 AM
In reply to powen001
I hear you , and that is exactly what I meant when I stated that you cannot put new wine in old bottles .
By new wine I was refering to the restructuring of the WICB or a new entity governing Cricket in the Region .
I would never propose changing the name and not having structural changes .
May 14, 2007, 10:15:29 PM
In reply to frangela
No, No, those that own the hymnals burnt them so we will never learn to sing! Back to the crab syndrome a perpectual act of please do not mess with my upward movement in my barrel.
May 14, 2007, 10:18:16 PM
In reply to powen001 You are speaking of the West Indies! Not America. You know it will take you until Jesus come to get anything out of a West Indian.
May 14, 2007, 10:45:33 PM
In reply to powen001
Mr. Powen001, I have followed your posting and you seem to be sincere about your intentions. I just want to let you know I appreciate your unambiguous effort in trying to effect a fundational change within the mental/physical structure of the WICB.
I would wish that those inept,senile,uncouth,unethical,arrogant,ignorant, none economical,none proffessional unadulted Morons would just come to their common sense and say! We will humble ourselves and submit to a reform of their defunct structure immediately.
I suggest that the regional Government witheld any aids that would be given to the WICB whether in notes or aids or any other help. I suggest that all money/assets be frozen until reform is taken place.
I think a radical change is needed! This is a serious problem, the entire world is watching as we continue to drown in the quandary of disgrace in the region.
May 15, 2007, 2:36:50 AM
In reply to Lovemd62
I have stated what you are saying too. The WICB has applied to the Regional Governments for permission to establish a Regional Lottery .
I am already on record stating that in return for that priviledge , the Regional Governments must have an equal amount of seats on the WICB , they must be seated in all meetings of the WICB , the WICB must be restructured with the center pieces being Total Transparency , Total Accountability , and Term Limitations for all .
As I laso stated , in the hosting of the World Cup the Regional Governments spent millions of dollars to have the World Cup a success . THE WICB SPENT ABSOLUTELY NOTHING .
As I see it the onus is on the Regional Governments to demand structural changes in regard to the Governance of Cricket in the Region by the WICB .
NOW IF THE WICB REFUSES THEN , THEY DONT GET THEIR LOTTERY , AND STEPS SHOULD BE TAKEN TO REMOVE THEM FROM THE GOVERNANCE OF CRICKET IN THIS REGION .
May 15, 2007, 7:36:15 AM
In reply to POINT
please, please...do not bring in the govts...that is recipe for disaster...did you not hear them at the ceremonies...Jamaica...grenada....barbados....we are the best island...the best host venue...the best...the best...blah, blah, sh&%...
they are the underlying reason for our insularity...if their boy messes up...its someone elsess fault...if its a guy from another island/country...then get rid of him...
no...as brancker says...let the wicb go public...let we the fan and the private enterprises take over...publish accounts...pay board directors who must be accountable and if they fail they are fired...we are so busy firing players, coaches and CEOs (all of the professionals) ..yet we never fire those who are not officially paid, but ruin cricket with their power deals and corrupt practises...
I repeat its the regional boards that have to go...run this like a business..create a west indian league (as they are doing in trinidad where several players from the islands and guyana are playing professionally)...league teams play one another for the regional competitions...leave the countries to play one another at amateur level...ie under v15 and under 19...this gets rid of the insularity before it starts and makes the boys far more professional...remember its impossible for the west indies team to conjure up a patriotic spirit as we are not one country!
May 15, 2007, 10:45:50 AM
In reply to windies
Mr. Wendies, they must be apart of the regional criket system, the one we have now does not work. But, they must not have any power on the board, they will sit on the board as a means to an end! Meaning to have transparency and accountability.
They cannot be incharged, I already stated that they are useless, no good morons that suck the blood out of their people and I meant that about the regional governemtn! All we want in the WICB is accountability and transparency no more confidentiality as the Inept Gordon asked for!
May 15, 2007, 11:32:40 AM
In reply to windies
They are not going to be directly involved , my idea is to have a QUASI GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY governing Cricket in the Region . That will be automonus from the Regional Governments .
In every Country in the Region there are such entities , that are run without interference from governments .
The benefits of having such an entity are these , TOTAL TRANSPARENCY ; TOTAL ACCOUNTABILITY , AND EVERY YEAR THE PUBLIC GETS A FINANCIAL STATEMENT . The fact that it is a Quasi Governmental Agency means that the Regional Governments can give it funds .
I dont have a problem with the Public also investing in this AGENCY .
As I have stated many times on this MB there needs to be a Personnel Inventory at Factory Road in Antigua , because I believe that there are square pegs in round holes there .
THE AGENCY MUST BE RUN LIKE A BUISNESS , THIS CALLS FOR IT TO BE STREAMLINED , AND HAVING THE NECESSARY PERSONS NEEDED TO FULFILL ITS OPERATIONS .
I would have no problem if 6 former Test Players are elected from the 6 areas to deal with all cricket matters .
As I stated above , the Buisness Department will deal with all matters pertaining to Finance , Promotion , advertising , Personnel etc .
Obviously there must be a Elected President , vice President etc . THESE MUST BE ELECTED BY THE PUBLIC , NOT BY CRICKET ASSOCIATIONS THAT CAN BE DOMINATED BY THE REGIONAL BOARD PRESIDENTS .
The main cause of the sad sorry state of our Cricket is the Regional Board Presidents , THEIR POWER MUST BE CURBED , MANY OF THEM HAVE BEHAVED LIKE RAJAHS , THOSE DAYS MUST ONCE AND FOR ALL END .
I forsee their role as just being in an advisory capacity .
They by their power have committed to much mischief , all detrimental to cricket in the Region .
IT IS VERY UNSEEMLY FOR THE CURRENT BOARD TO BE FIGHTING WITH ITS OWN PLAYERS OVER MONEY , TANGIBLE EVIDENCE EXISTS THAT THE BOARD HAS BEEN WRONG 5 OUT OF 5 TIMES ALREADY .
May 15, 2007, 1:09:45 PM
LoveMd & Point
sorry I was away...I thank you both for the comments. I even understand the comment / fear about keeping the governments away...unfortunately that cant happen now...not with so much tax payors money in the do. Representative at board level, yes but no vote has been my experience on several regional boards. The Governments presence...believe it or not lends credibility to new entities. The trick is to limit their involvement to information/clarification on some policy directives but no voting power.
what can I say guys...finding good people is becoming harder to do than finding virgins over 18 yrs old. sorry for the analogy but I heard some first hand info from a very senior person from the board room...and one can only shudder at how much work needs to be done at all levels across the region.
I will not give up...and I know that Point
feels the same way.
Old Wine needs to be mixed with cake and new wine brought from within the barrel. I refuse to accept that enough good people cannot be brought together to get the job done....uh gone ..de wife ready. 
May 15, 2007, 5:45:38 PM
In reply to powen001 Guys I am not living in any of the caribbean Islands right now! There is a thing call demonstration. I am sure there are WICB offices around the region! Gather the fans and stage peaceful marches around the region! Until those inept surrender the vice grip they have around our cricket necks.
May 15, 2007, 5:58:16 PM
Mr. Point if no one is willing to do something about his pandemonium! We need to find someone who has the financial backing to start a New Entity! Then we will force the ICC by Law to accept the New Entity as a legitimate Business contrary to the WICB which is a Mofia dominated backyard dip and duck shop.
May 15, 2007, 7:45:28 PM
In reply to Lovemd62
Gather the fans and stage peaceful marches around the region! Until those inept surrender the vice grip they have around our cricket necks
This crossed my mind to be honest but those stubborn irreverent persons who represent us on the WICB would need far more than a bunch of placard bearing negro spiritual singing persons. We need to threaten Sponsors of WI cricket first...because its only the threat of financial loss that seems to get their attention.