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Why I am a Hindu

Dan_De_Lyan 2019-11-07 23:07:32 

Link Text

"There are simply no binding requirements to being a Hindu. Not even a belief in God."

A three-minute reading from #whyIAmAHindu that conveys something of the flavour of the book that is soon to be a web series:

maj 2019-11-07 23:35:02 

In reply to Dan_De_Lyan

Yep. big grin

Dan_De_Lyan 2019-11-07 23:37:56 

In reply to maj

Life time warranty! Reincarnation!

Just like snapon tools. you break it and it get replaced.

Not burning in hell

maj 2019-11-07 23:40:56 

In reply to Dan_De_Lyan


but i was under the impression the goal was to stop reincarnation and achieve moksha.

as for myself im doomed to be always reincarnating..
big grin

Dan_De_Lyan 2019-11-07 23:46:33 

In reply to maj

keep doing most good with a little bad to prevent that moksha...

like saying "I will marry you" True true

maj 2019-11-07 23:50:16 

In reply to Dan_De_Lyan

to be safe im skewing towards an 80/20 split big grin

doosra 2019-11-08 00:00:55 

No requirement you say?

The Brahmins may not agree big grin

Dan_De_Lyan 2019-11-08 00:05:48 

In reply to doosra


The cow?

maj 2019-11-08 00:18:42 

In reply to doosra



DAVE400 2019-11-08 00:47:56 

In reply to doosra

Say it louder...Chrissy didn't hear you.

Brown noser... oxymoron intended.

doosra 2019-11-08 01:38:31 

In reply to DAVE400

you trying too hard to sound smart

cheeks and sudden soon come to send you back in your rat hole

goofballs 2019-11-08 02:55:01 

In reply to doosra

The Brahmins may not agree

Please to elaborate.

doosra 2019-11-08 03:33:25 

In reply to goofballs

There are simply no binding requirements to being a Hindu

that being a hindu, according to the highest caste, means the acknowledgement of an order
(according to the highest caste), or not be in that order at all...

an order/class implies requirements, whether you think those requirements are fair or not

and to be a brahmin means a load of requirements...some inherited, some practices, some from teachings, etc

goofballs 2019-11-08 06:20:50 

In reply to doosra
I don't know much but wasn't that historic social division by the Aryans and further enforced by the British for law and order? It is practically being done away with and considered a crime in India. Quota system is in place to help the underprivileged. 72% reserved/quota.

I think if one studies the religion, he would have to agree:
There are simply no binding requirements to being a Hindu

As simple as:

patram puspam phalam toyam
yo me bhaktya prayacchati......

My favorite quote to the people, especially pandits who do elaborate rituals
Krishna says If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit, water, I will accept it.
He also says, worship me in whatever way or culture you are accustomed to (Christianity, Islam, whatever) as all roads do lead to Me.No exclusiveness!!

There are rituals, yes, but we don't have to do squat. The main role of Brahmins was to study and do the specialized rituals like sanskaars, being pujaris or purohits. Otherwise anyone can do their prayers at home, if they so choose.

You can be a Hindu, or achieve the ultimate, by just doing good deeds, or sewa, selfless work without expectation of reward in any culture by anyone in whatever part of the world. Karmayoga.
Of course Bhakti yoga dong devotion, rituals, etc.
Janana yoga....intellect, wisdom, philosophy eg Socrates!
Raja yoga...personal insight/enlightenment.

Even without saying or thinking you are a Hindu, you are based on so many generalized features. All encompassing.
The scope is limitless; no fixed,rigid requirements.

I think the speaker was along this line of thinking.
Juss rambling here.

Norm 2019-11-08 08:49:21 

A religion that doesn't guarantee a spot in Heaven for its faithful can't be worth much. Another cheap Indian product? smile smile

DAVE400 2019-11-08 10:13:55 

In reply to goofballs

Great post...

Lost on a poor soul seeking material validation...

DAVE400 2019-11-08 10:14:38 

In reply to doosra

The day I worry about validation here is the day i become you...

doosra 2019-11-08 10:48:08 

In reply to DAVE400

picking at someone persistently is the sign of someone who is very insecure

now run along and try bullying the other people who put you to your place everytime you try to sound clever here

doosra 2019-11-08 10:50:58 

In reply to DAVE400

material validation you say?

was it not you posting pic of how good you look and talking how successful you are

you are too bitter, get over yourself

doosra 2019-11-08 11:21:46 

In reply to Dan_De_Lyan

The cow?

Actually, i wasn't thinking that at it a requirement?

i know growing up the hindus around my home circle and about the place were not supposed to eat beef

but is that a requirement? i am not sure

DAVE400 2019-11-08 11:35:43 

In reply to doosra

There is no sin in Hinduism...just karma

So abstinence from beef is done out of respect for something accepted as sacred...rather than a dogmatic fear of punishment

DAVE400 2019-11-08 11:37:47 

In reply to doosra

Fui...I was not seeking validation...just trying to inspire the other quadrigen aged posters..

doosra 2019-11-08 11:40:08 

In reply to goofballs

thanks for your response...

There are rituals, yes, but we don't have to do squat.

just to clarify, that you can just be a hindu without any commitment/ precondition tho there are rituals?

actually that is not what i see as the reality and even your post is pointing to the realities i talked about but only limited to the brahmins...for example in the quote below you suggest what you will do (or is the required thing to do is to not follow what others say? is that a requirement (to not follow or to do as you see fit))

My favorite quote to the people, especially pandits who do elaborate rituals
Krishna says If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit, water, I will accept it.
He also says, worship me in whatever way or culture you are accustomed to (Christianity, Islam, whatever) as all roads do lead to Me.No exclusiveness!!

You can be a Hindu, or achieve the ultimate, by just doing good deeds,

you seem to suggest that to "be" means to do (in this case "good deeds")...which is it? you can be without doing or you can be by doing? or both...i suppose what i am getting from you is both?

just to reiterate, my first post in this thread was about the order associated with the caste system and brahmins...i maintain my view that thru the eyes and the minds and actions of brahmins, one of the condition (or requirement) is that one has to accept being in some order...of course you can choose to or not to...but it doesn't change that reality

doosra 2019-11-08 11:41:28 

In reply to DAVE400

so let me be clear, you can say and do what you want and then decide if u are or are not seeking validation...i agree with that...i cannot read your mind

but on the other hand, you can be sure that someone else is seeking validation?

doosra 2019-11-08 11:44:01 

In reply to DAVE400

There is no sin in Hinduism...just karma

i still struggle to understand the practical difference between the two things if there is indeed a difference

sin - punishment for ills

karma - punishment for ills

So abstinence from beef is done out of respect for something accepted as sacred...rather than a dogmatic fear of punishment

that is not inconsistent with my own comment (that i never interpreted the not eating beef as a requirement) but the reality on the ground, Dave, is that in some places, if one eats beef one is caste out and even punished...maybe that's just ignorance

DAVE400 2019-11-08 11:56:14 

In reply to doosra

So man bastardize the religion..that a fault of the faith or the people?

DAVE400 2019-11-08 11:56:33 

Karma and sin are fundamentally different

Emir 2019-11-08 11:58:03 

Shashi is a fine gentleman and he practices a form of Hinduism that was more in line with the ancient, original Hinduism (the name Hinduism is actually a European name, the ancient religion was not call Hinduism) prior to the Aryan invasion.

The Aryans enslaved the native Dravidian, remade their way of life (Hinduism) and it has evolved today to become the world oldest continuous form of oppression via the oppressive caste system- more than 60% of the people are "low or lower" caste and moreover, more than 90% of the people are subservient to the Brahmin caste- the legacy of the Aryans.

That there is "no hell or day of judgment" is only because for the oppress majority, the lower caste, hell is right here on earth every day. Check out the dalits and their day to day existence.

Shashi's audience is for the radical BJP and the RSS people- he wants to tell them modern day Hinduism is not the real deal and their way is the evil way. He wants the world to know we must not equate Hinduism with the war monger Modi and the terrorist RSS.

He wants to remind them the reason why so many peoples invaded India (the name India was also given by Europeans) was because the majority welcomed the invaders as they were enslaved and oppress by the few Brahmins and terrorist apartheid caste system- the invaders showed them a better way.

I want everyone to know, today in India there are tens of millions of people, mainly in South who are fighting the good fight to reclaim the true and authentic "Hinduism" from the terror of those who hijacked it.

We should be proud of them.

doosra 2019-11-08 12:07:44 

In reply to DAVE400

Karma and sin are fundamentally different

i would love to hear more of your thoughts on this, if you can

DAVE400 2019-11-08 12:11:20 

In reply to Emir

Great post.

DAVE400 2019-11-08 12:15:42 

In reply to doosra

Its like this ... some parents think without laws they can't teach their children right and they outsource parental wisdom to a doctrine of obedience...obey law..obey parents..I solemnly pledge and all that fuckery...

Other parents believe in innate goodness and put faith in exemplary education...emotional investent ...compassion..articulating their values but not prescribing them..

What the child does with the latter determines the quality of their own lives...

Got it?

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 12:59:51 

I was really enjoying the read and learning some interesting things...then the bickering started...and I learned no one wins that either.

So no more indulging people in their need to drag down every thread with the personal back and forth.

On the subject of Hinduism.... If there is no God, where did we come from, why do we feel this powerful urge to Worship, and what power repays us through reincarnation?

black 2019-11-08 13:03:19 

In reply to Ayenmol

 If there is no God, where did we come from

Where did God come from?

Back to square one!

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 13:07:19 

In reply to Emir

Is'nt it ironic that someone who keeps telling the World how peaceful his Religion, is always promoting a violent solution?

Just an observance.

By their fruits you will know them.

maj 2019-11-08 13:23:13 

Karma is a direct result of the sinful or good deed.

Karma is not always a punishment.

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 13:25:38 

In reply to maj

Who keeps note of these deeds?

Who establishes the line between good and bad?

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 13:27:24 

And did we get here and what force has put into motion our ability to reincarnate?

Can anyone answer that?

XFactor 2019-11-08 13:59:00 

In reply to doosra

The cow?

What's your beef with Dave? lol

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 14:02:14 

Indian writer A. Parthasarathy explains: “The Hindus are not polytheistic. Hinduism speaks of one God . . . The different gods and goddesses of the Hindu pantheon are mere representatives of the powers and functions of the one supreme God in the manifested world.”

Hindus often refer to their faith as sanatana dharma, which means eternal law or order. Hinduism* is really a loose term that describes a host of religions and sects (sampradayas) that have developed and flourished over the millenniums under the umbrella of the complex ancient Hindu mythology. So intricate is that mythology that the New Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology states: “Indian mythology is an inextricable jungle of luxuriant growths. When you enter it you lose the light of day and all clear sense of direction.” Nevertheless, this chapter will cover some of the features and teachings of that faith.

A search for Liberation.

goofballs 2019-11-08 15:52:20 

In reply to doosra
You ask good questions and I am not just saying that as speakers/teachers are taught to say to acknowledge/praise difficult questions, troublemakers or people who put them in a spot. razz

Disclaimer: I have not formally studied religion. I follow my own interpretation after decades of reading and intense experiences. I do not claim to represent any religion, sect or belief system but mine!

I think the mere use of the word "Hindu" is a restrictive element against the most non restrictive "religion" or way of Life.
Cancel Hindu everywhere it is mentioned and see if it makes sense.
So wrt to Brahmins, the ones I know, the long lineage that came from India and have memorized the most sacred of mantras and passed it on and are involved in Vedic rituals. They are involved in only one of many paths, the Bhakti Yoga (devotion).

Again, You have some very simplistic issues dealing with just one, rituals, of many aspects. There are many paths to unite with the Supreme energy source.


you seem to suggest that to "be" means to do (in this case "good deeds")...which is it? you can be without doing or you can be by doing? or both...i suppose what i am getting from you is both?

Not just good deeds, or good rituals or intellect/wisdom/insights.
Some Catholics call themselves cafeteria Catholics, just choosing what they want to follow, although I think they have more specific regulations. "Hinduism" impose no penalties for genuine choices! Most people don't make choices or argue. They just do it! Like Mother Theresa.

goofballs 2019-11-08 16:06:00 

In reply to Ayenmol

On the subject of Hinduism.... If there is no God, where did we come from, why do we feel this powerful urge to Worship, and what power repays us through reincarnation?

Breaking News!
You don't need to worship. smile
My interpretation, from the Upanishads and other sources, is that we have all come from the Supreme Energy source and we are part and parcel of that, so we have "God"liness in all of us.
The myths/stories/pictures,idols, even some rituals is like what you do to very simple, unexposed children like by reading nancy stories, using many pictures in the baby books, singing. That is the basics before more developed intellect can understand philosophy or implement action. Brainwashing of the innocent, primitive masses, one might say!

sgtdjones 2019-11-08 16:06:00 

In reply to goofballs

My understanding is Hinduism is a way of life.

A Hindu appreciates all living things that enriches his/her
life. Hindus are thankful to Mother Earth for providing They dont worship the cow , they are thankful for
the things the cow provides to them. Most Hindus respect cows for their gentle nature, and also represent strength.

goofballs 2019-11-08 16:09:14 

In reply to sgtdjones

Krishna says: If you want to do devotion to me, just love all living creatures because they are all from Me, my creations. I will be very happy if you just do that.
I am not good at direct quotes
Now, tell me if that is really a religion or if that is how we should be in the first place?

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 16:16:46 

In reply to goofballs

So if there is no God....why are there so many Hindu God's and who is Krishna?

sgtdjones 2019-11-08 16:17:04 

In reply to goofballs

Now, tell me if that is really a religion or if that is how we should be in the first place?

I dont believe its a religion. My great grandfather came from India in the middle 1800's, he was a hindu. He taught his kids it was a way of life,love and respect everything that mother Earth provides.
It leads one to live virtuously, righteously, morally and ethically throughout one's life.

goofballs 2019-11-08 16:18:36 

In reply to doosra

Incidentally, patram puspam phalam toyam (a Leaf, a Flower, a Fruit and a drop of Water)
has much deeper meanings but suffice to say it in the simple form to make a POINT wrt need for worship or rituals.
Any one of the above, and this is a direct quote from the religious Bible.
I mean book. smile
Ok, Gita.

goofballs 2019-11-08 16:23:09 

In reply to Ayenmol

Read my penultimate post before your post.

Krishna was really an alien who left in a space rocket.

It is said that whenever there is unrighteousness, He comes in the form of a Human.

goofballs 2019-11-08 16:23:31 

In reply to goofballs

Whenever there is a decline in righteousness and an upsurge in unrighteousness, then I manifest Myself (in personal form)

This is Kalyug, so we are due a visit from a Christ, Allah, Krishna or whatever people call Him (or Her). smile

I think most belief system allude to that. Or sending his only Begotten Son.

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 16:24:28 

Interesting that someone would dispute the Bible with it's cohesion, proven prophesies and fulfilment, historical acuracy and even scientific accuracy while subscribing to an enigmatic Religion and philosophy based on human assumption whose writings prove to be entangled in myth with little reality.

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 16:25:38 

In reply to goofballs

Yeah I got that...why would I believe that?

goofballs 2019-11-08 16:26:10 

In reply to Ayenmol

Oh Brother!

goofballs 2019-11-08 16:32:44 

In reply to Ayenmol

why would I believe that?

You don't have to! smile
It is what the mind is capable of absorbing.

Historically, they say they found evidence of meteors, etc. I don't know. I don't care for superficial things like nancy stories but rather the philosophical aspects of actually any religion without being married to any.
I just happened to grow up among priests.

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 16:33:34 

In reply to goofballs

Just saying...if you tell me there is no God while your religion worships thousands...kinda mindboggling...then you tell me the religion leads to a certain awareness and some go to great lengths to respect animals and making the into deities, even worshiping rats and a temple to rats that is literally the most filthy thing I have seen....bathing in a contaminated dirty and unhygienic does that make sense?

What God would ask his people to put themselves in such squalor for his benefit?

Just asking....that is what I and many others see as manifestations of the religion.

So explain the value of doing such for a God that am being told really does not exist.

goofballs 2019-11-08 16:45:50 

In reply to Ayenmol

Very good POINT and I am genuine. smile
Don't have enough time.
Have to differentiate between myths, customs, etc. that any set of ancient people/tribe perpetuate until they learnt to wear shirt and pants and eat with knife and fork. smile Civilization, they say.
Many are as such, myths, customs as per the way of life of that specific population in that particular region.
Man is constantly evolving. Changes happen, especially in perspectives, with time.
Most are not religion per se, and if it is a ritual, you don't have to do squat anyhow.
Primitive minds will stick to primitive acts/behaviors.
Enlightened minds will move to a higher, non materialistic plane.

goofballs 2019-11-08 16:48:56 

In reply to Ayenmol

if you tell me there is no God while your religion worships thousands

I do not fall into a category of one religion. Non exclusiveness, Bhai.


maj 2019-11-08 17:02:46 

In reply to Ayenmol

Who keeps note of these deeds?

Who establishes the line between good and bad?

your soul and the universe..i am not a theologian

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 17:09:24 

In reply to maj

Your soul? What is this soul?

How does the Universe interact with this Soul?

Does the Universe know what we are doing?

Does it have a mind? Control?

Influence? Why does it keep sending meteors at us?

Is it trying to extermina us?

Is it punishing us?

Attempting to communicate with us?

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 17:11:29 

In reply to maj

i am not a theologian

Most theologians agree that, like Greek mythology, your religion is wholly man made and enigmatic and not based in reality.

So question is...if you cannot explain your belief....why do you believe it?

Is it simply because of tradition?

Where you grew up?

maj 2019-11-08 17:21:29 

In reply to Ayenmol

I should have said my consciousness. Those of the Judeochristian faith call us idol worshipers but as stated before Hinduism is a way of life not just a religion.

Yes I follow more for culture and traditional reasons than any other.

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 17:25:57 

Lest we forget....the Thread began...

There are simply no binding requirements to being a Hindu. Not even a belief in God."

Yes I follow more for culture and traditional reasons than any other.

So why do you disparage others who do the same?

Also...if there is no reason for God in your religion....why are there so many God's in your religion?

And why is there a "holy writing"?

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 17:51:29 

Is it not amazing? So many people in the World....such a long history ...such variety of culture and belief...yet a common thread exist...

The need to worship...the belief in punishment for bad and reward for good. The belief in some form of afterlife and even the belief of some form of Higher power.


Note what the Bible says regarding Satan's interaction with Eve in the Garden of Eden.

Now the serpent was the most cautious of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it said to the woman: “Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?”2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden.3 But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’”4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die.5 For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.

God said the PUNISHMENT for their sin would be death...Satan said no....Think about that and what the Religion you identify with teaches that either harmonizes with or not, that thought.

He also tells EVE she would get to decide for herself wat is good and what is bad....That appealed to her...does your religion teach the same?

Yet as God promised...we we not? So where does all the other ideas emanate from that has not and cannot be proven?

goofballs 2019-11-08 18:30:14 

In reply to Ayenmol

Yet as God promised...we die.

Who is God?
Die? What is dat?
lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
I am just trying to dive to your level.

If we can cut down the fanaticism and narcissism we could have respect and healthy discussions. Belief systems are there and unless you are trying the age old "habits" of yore, to forcibly convert, one should at least respect other systems unless they do harm like the Crusades, animal/human sacrifices etc.

My personal belief, there is no death.
"Matter is neither created nor destroyed" just transformation........... till recently with nuclear stuff and the black hole.

I suspect the black hole long time now, as soon as some guys enter that territory they go into a whole new universe.

Runs 2019-11-08 18:44:04 

I will drop this here right about now -

Brief Answers To The Big Questions - Stephen Hawking

Please do not ask me anymore questions. Thank you very much.

goofballs 2019-11-08 18:50:50 

In reply to Runs

Surely a great "Hindu" with some understanding of the sciences and arrangements thereof.

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 18:53:04 

In reply to goofballs

My personal belief, there is no death.

Ok then...

My point was that we can see the realities of what the Bible teaches...

We can also examone our own beliefs vs those realities.

But as you is your personal belief....of course, where else in life can we simply rely on our...personal belief.

goofballs 2019-11-08 18:53:21 

In reply to goofballs

Disclaimer for the Jahalasses: Black hole is NOT racist, not meant to be.
All holes (on earth at least) look black from outside.
I cannot simplify it further.

goofballs 2019-11-08 18:55:20 

In reply to Ayenmol

Ok, Bhai.


Am busy today. Later.

Ayenmol 2019-11-08 19:14:44 

In reply to goofballs

Yes Realities.


the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
"he refuses to face reality"

I can answer the questions you pose above....but you posed them because you were unaable to answer the ones i asked.

Reality is, though you may choose not to believe the Bible, what it says regarding death is a reality.

What it says about Satan's claim is realistic and reflected in the all teachings of the religions of the World.

Add to that the fact that the Bible notes we have a common origin. Someone recently posted scientific proof of that very fact.

But how can we have a discussion when there is no foundation?

How can we have a discussion if all you rely on is yorur belief system that you cannot give a basis for?

Norm 2019-11-09 09:04:18 

In reply to Ayenmol

if you cannot explain your belief....why do you believe it?

This applies to all believers, of all religions. Hinduism is no worse than any other religion in that respect.

A "belief" that becomes proven would become "scientific fact" and ceases to be a "belief".

A few other points:

Not everything that could be explained is believed. The explanation may be wrong.

Some people consider Bible prophets or prominent persons to be the equivalent of Hindu gods. Noah, for example, is said to be same as Vishnu.

There are fundamental similarities between Hinduism and Christianity, such as a single supreme creator, a single being reborn many times with different identities as prophets, a triad of gods forming a unit, punishment of the spirit for poor Earthly conduct, elevation of the spirit for good Earthly conduct, etc.

The urgent need of some religions to prove other religions wrong is vain, intolerant and stupid. No single religion could benefit by undermining the need for religion in general, and all religions are necessarily based on beliefs that cannot be proven.

Also, the concept that true faith could result only from the written word is fundamentally flawed. Were that so, people without written language would be incapable of true faith.

Ayenmol 2019-11-09 13:20:09 

In reply to Norm

Your interpretation of true faith and that of the Bible is diametrically opposed.

Yet most of what you said I alluded to.

Belief in the Bible and the History of Religion alone helps one to understand the origin of these various religions which is what I attempted to explore and was shutdown by goofy.

In any case, I do not subscribe to your overall premise that true faith is the possession of individual application.

There can only be one truth.

This is why I tried to reason on realities...there is only one truth to a matter... Apples are either taut or sweet ... an individual can like it taut or like it sweet, or not at all..,,but the apple is what it is.

Recently a Russian expert on Religion was called to testify on Jehovah's Witnesses who are accused of being terrorist because they practice their faith and do not get involved in Politics and Nationalism.

The Russians use the fact that we claim to be the one true Religion as proof we are working against the State.

The Theologian said...“To say that believers consider their religion to be the absolute truth and to consider other religions to be either absolutely false or mostly false certainly describes any religious person. It must be the case or one would be considered a hypocrite.

WestDem 2019-11-09 18:35:43 

In reply to Ayenmol

After god created the world in 7 days , Adam screwed Eve and gave birth to Cain and Abel, Cain killed Abel... now we have Adam, Eve and Cain... who effed who to increase the population then? This is the Bible teachings I am referring to!

goofballs 2019-11-09 20:01:05 

History. Corroboration.

Link Text

Spaceships using Mercury during Vedic times which NASA is just working on.

goofballs 2019-11-09 20:04:25 

Dwarka, Krishna's so called "mythological city" discovered with corroboration of many things

Link Text

Ayenmol 2019-11-10 01:11:41 

In reply to WestDem

After becoming father to Seth, Adam lived for 800 years. And he became father to sons and daughters. 5 So all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died

Genesis chapter 5 verse 4.

Dan_De_Lyan 2019-11-10 14:50:15 

In reply to Ayenmol

Sitaram baiya

Dan_De_Lyan 2019-11-10 14:50:17 

In reply to Ayenmol

Sitaram baiya