seh who?

In reply to doosra

But they forgot to mention that he claps well ..... intangibles my friend!

In reply to doosra

What is your problem?

In reply to Emir

is there one?
if there is, it has to do with calling out inconsistency and double standards

In reply to doosra
Why you going after Dukes so hard doosie? We all have the right change our minds when presented with new evidence, no?

As Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

In reply to Walco

you calling people name juss so?

a little mind is what I am used to being called, it is evident isn't it

In reply to doosra

Worst than a farce. Scammy was a fraud.

Leaders lead by example and that fraud was only good at hiding and clapping.

Remember when he would promote himself up the batting order when his team needed only a few runs to win with lots of overs to spare? Just so he could hit the winning run and have his pic in the morning papers. FRAUD.

In reply to doosra

where yuh resurrect this from
call names

In reply to doosra
For purposes of clarification, the Ralph Emerson quote was to say that Dukes does not have a little mind. It was in no way intended to suggest that you have a little mind

In reply to Walco

and that is exactly what i acknowledged

In reply to doosra
I though so, but I just want to remove any possible doubt regarding my post

In reply to Walco

and i never thought you meant anyone but me

Simple case of you never miss the water ..till..

Winning two world cups followed by not even being close to sniffing them in his absence is quite irrefutable evidence..but peeps are still constrained by by narrow minds even if they have been proven wrang wrang wrang. Having talent is one thing..but being able to leverage that talent as a leader in a dynamic setting on the field of play is clearly underestimated...and whomever you trying to callout as being hypocrite is probably just being a grown up admitting that he may have previously missed a trick in assessing the situation based on the mountain of evidence that has piled up since then. I respect that.

Some will hold on to the hatred and the illogical position to their graves..I dunno just to prove that they were right?? Very much akin to DJT supporters...no matter how much crap piles up...they don't want to admit that he is a sk...t.

In the meanwhile...lemme go replay the highlights of that 2012 T20 win. Arguably the best all-round performance of that match came from????

In reply to Cheeks

How much speculation are you comfortable with?

In reply to camos

You can speculate all you want. I am dealing in measurable matters. What do they say...you can't manage what you can't measure??? The theme is LEEDAHSHIP Iyah.

In reply to Cheeks

Maybe the most irrational, data-less nonsense I've ever read here.
The ones for which there wasn't even a sniff... did they have 9 of The Greatest T20 PLAYERS the
world has ever seen in their prime? I don't even think you believe yourself but if you do I am shocked
and disappointed in my level of mis-judgement.

The Actual Original Conversation

In reply to doosra

Get a room you two!

In reply to Brerzerk

Data-less??

You mean the data doesn't align with your qualitative and presumably biased assessment. The data says two world cup wins followed by no sniff. You can do all the permutations of subjectivity you want...about who was in prime and who was not in prime and who bridged the gap of those teams vs the no sniff teams etc etc, but to do that you will have to apply the same argument to Clive Lloyd's leadership no?

Unless you think that leadership and teamwork do not matter?

Nice try with the 'in their prime' argument though.

In reply to Cheeks

Winning two world cups followed by not even being close to sniffing them in his absence is quite irrefutable evidence..but

What was his performance as ODI captain....

What is his experience in international or regional level in 50 overs match...

Which team he has coached successfully in 50 overs match....

Please enlighten!!!

In reply to Cheeks

how do you measure that assertion?

In reply to doosra

Don't let anyone tell you that you're broke like a Sammy stroke. You'll be in bad shape.

In reply to camos

How do I what???

Sammy as captain
2012 Champs
2014 Semis lost in a rain affected match
2016 Champs

No Sammy
2021 ..out in what? Round 2? Many of our T20 'studs' played in that one. Hence Brezerk's attempt at coverage via the 'prime' argument.

Lets not talk about after that.

In reply to camos

Chough Camos, look to me for all your answers, matter of fact, it's in display in front of your very eyes.

Tilt your focus to the top righthand section of my post and there you'll have it.

Darren Sammy is the best option for coach. Had Chanders been the white ball coach, it would have been the best.

The problem with West Indians is you can never please everyone. Some of the best and most successful coaches in the world don’t have certifications.

Did ravi Shastri have any when he became coach?

Brendon McCullum

Many current IPL coaches are ex players coaching some of the richest and most successful franchises the game has ever seen (I’m not an IPL fan but that’s another story altogether)

Many past players gravitate to coaching and they have certain skills that you can’t learn in a classroom.

Let’s give Sammy a fair shot.

In reply to brians_da_best

I agree to give him a shot.

In reply to Onionman0

Boss ..I am not trying to defend Sammy's selection as 50 over or even T20 coach. I was addressing doosra's accusation of double standards..because a poster in previous times questioned Sammy's cricketing ability and ongoing selection. I was suggesting why that poster may have adjusted his position when considering the evidence and the fact that Windies don't have all the world's resources at their fingertips for the job.

I keep saying smaller markets generally have to learn to compromise and make the best of what's available via creativity, innovation and sometimes veering a little bit away from rigid and prescriptive quantitative criteria. This is the real world. Easy to talk when you work from some large corporation that has access to a large labor market and can throw large remuneration packages at top notch experts. Keep it real bruh. My guess is the men feel that Sammy brings some intangibles like passion, committment, making the best of your talent, attitude, communication skills, ability to inspire along with his actual playing experiences as regular player and as leader to help mold a young team.

I think it's worth a shot dammit.

In reply to Wally-1

I agree...Sammy hinspired Sextillion. Sextillion was the real hero truth be told. But Sammy was the glue and director..especially when we were fielding.

In reply to Cheeks
On a serious note, Sammy might have the intangibles to be a great coach, but we'll never find out unless he's given a shot.

In reply to Wally-1

I agree. Its not like we have a whole lot to lose.

In reply to Cheeks

Sammy may yet turn out to be a great coach; Time will tell. However suspect the rationale was for handing him the position, we have to coalesce around the team and give it our support. Lest we forget, quite a few successful coaches were mediocre players and Sammy was nothing if not relentlessly mediocre.

The main reservation is that, in his new role, there will be no Samuels, Narine, and Gayle to do the heavy lifting while Sammy reaps the undeserved accolades, but lets give him a chance!
He can't be any worse than some of the others who have preceded him.

In reply to SnoopDog

You are shortchanging Sammy. You neglected to mention his toss-spinning ability to go with his peerless clapping ability!

In reply to jacksprat

Well put.

In reply to jacksprat

No one wants to mention his track record as captain of the Mooks in the CPL.

If he was supposedly this great captain, and leader, then surely there would be an instance where his supreme "intangibles" led an ordinary group of players (ie. the Mooks) to win a title...or two.

In reply to Cheeks

Having talented players.....and man managing them ....is the job Sammy excel....team comprised of Gayle,Bravo, Pollard, Samuels....all temperamental stars.... Sammy man managed them to 2 world cup trophies... with hardly any personal contribution....

But here , Sammy has totally different task....to mould a team .... technically and strategically.....to work on individual players to maximum their capabilities.... Sammy doesn't have any knowledge, experience or credibility.....he doesn't even have requisite 5 year experience as laid down by CWI.....he has 2-3 years experience as Zalmi coach....in T-20...... nothing international or regional list A or First class.... Sammy is nothing but a back door entry....in most opaque manner of Coach appointment by CWI....in such secrecy....not even revealing, who were the other applicants.

Sammy guaranteed to draw out the usual suspects.

Zouks are a hurriedly put together franchise with hardly anytime to mould into DJG's lean mean fighting machine. Give di leedah some time to work with the group..and he churns out success. . On the biggest stage of that 2012 T20 final ...Sammy was arguably our second best performer overall and best allrounder with runs, catches and wickets.

Rain saved Sri Lanka from his explosive bat in 2014.

2016 was different story...his leadership was all that was needed of him..and he delivered in spades.

Factzz iz factz.

In reply to Onionman0

I feel we’re being too negative (or insular) about everything here.

Was there a similar buzz when England appointed Baz as their coach?

Past players don’t neee the kind of certifications you guys are in about. The fact that they played cricket at all levels is all they need.

The fact is someone like Sammy or Baz or whoever know way more about coaching that many classroom coaches/

We need to give him a fair run and hope the results change. Else westbindies cricket would seriously run into oblivion

In reply to brians_da_best

Indeed sah. Truth be told..its par for the course here. I have learnt to have a laugh about it.
I keep saying though...that overly prescriptive and rigid criteria will NOT get Windies what they are looking for in a coach. There are realities of where we are today and what we can offer to consider. Good recruiters have to learn to look beyond di papers. It is what it is.

In reply to brians_da_best

I fully endorse your view...many players without certificate can perform with great success as coach....no dispute regarding this aspect....on the contrary, many certified coaches failed miserably......but Sammy appointment for me is poor....

1. The mode of appointment - Totally opaque... shrouded with secrecy....who applied...how many applied... Whether Sammy was the best among all the candidates????? CWI never released any statement...No posters have any information...

2.The eligibility criteria as laid down in CWI advertisement..... totally cast aside in Sammy appointment...one of the many criteria......5 years experience was one mandatory requirement at international or regional first class.... Sammy doesn't have 5 years experience...then what prompted CWI to appoint a personal, whose eligibility criteria doesn't satisfy to be appointed.

3. Sammy is excellent man manager....he managed a temperamental group of players Gayle, Samuels,Bravo , Pollard....won two world cup trophies without much personal performance to show.

4.Brendon McCullum as player lead from front with performance....in all format...He moulded his players into aggressive unit as captain.On the contrary, Sammy almost always was dependent on other players like Shiv, Gayle other established players to win....not a single good player developed during his tenure as captain..... ....nothing about building team but simply man management...

5.Present team requires a coach, who can technically, strategically and technologically build a strong set of players. Sammy as player and captain failed miserably in ODI, inspite having good team.No experience as coach in ODI.

To wrap up , it's a back door entry,for supporting the administration...bound to fail ....hope we can qualify for World Cup ODI....in easy group....then ,from there, we can talk, stock.......

In reply to Onionman0

I don’t agree.

For a change, the wicb has demonstrated some out of the box thinking, and that should be appreciated. Whether it works or not, time will tell.

1. They interviewed 30 applicants, 6 made the short list. Shiv was runner up

2.refer to my point about out of the box thinking. Many get jobs that they don’t fully meet the criteria for because the management senses something and goes on instinct

3. I agree regarding his man management. I feel he’ll be able to get the best out of many of our players. Time will tell

4. Many lesser players have made great coaches and many great coaches have been poor players

5. Sammy knows more about cricket than many other sople. He played for close to 10 yes, played all formats, had his moments on the field. He knows way more about the game than people give him credit for

The idea of bashing someone even before his first assignment starts doesn’t make sense. Let his performances speak for him. He has the full support of the team mentor, Lara and I feel this could be a good combination.

Give the man a chance is all I would say

In reply to brians_da_best

1. They interviewed 30 applicants, 6 made the short list. Shiv was runner up

Please share the link or source or details about what you have said....then we can sure agree to disagree....

In reply to Onionman0

Listen to the interview by Johnny grave.

Link

In reply to brians_da_best

Thanks for the links....6 applications Grave talks about.... doesn't say anything about other candidates except Shiv and further acknowledges that Sammy only experience is few T-20 leagues....no ODI experience and Sammy will be undergoing coaching training 3-Level in Antigua under CWI coaching program.....well, more they speak....more idiocy.....Grave accept Sammy needs training..... it's earn & learn.....

In reply to Cheeks

I see nothing wrang above...so I putting it back in case it was missed

In reply to Cheeks

Look at you putting all this time ad energy into defending Sammy

Yet in another thread, you would have everyone believed you’re just being impartial.

You’re a good man bro. But you just as biased ( some call it insular) as the rest of us.

Doh vex when somebody call it out. Own it.

In reply to imusic

Nah sah. You did not call out insularity; you attempted to...well..you actually told me what my argument WILL BE if Sammy fails. Dat kyah wuk. I am saying to you, I have never been a player blamer from an on field perspective.. for Windies struggles. So you have little to no evidence to support that conclusion.

How peeps have no issue when standards are not kept once it's their homie. And we wonder why we bottom out. Sad!

In reply to natty_forever

What standards man

There are no standards here

When England employed Baz, no one was on about his coaching certifications. Rather there was an excitement around how he would take england cricket forward. That is positive. If he failed, he would have been fired. So far he’s done well

Why can’t we at least give Sammy some time to prove himself. His first game hasn’t even happened and people are shooting him? That’s just negative and not right

I applaud this out of the box thinking by wicb, which is very rare given their recent history

Well...I can't comment on the 'fairness' and transparency of Sammy's appointment. As somebody who has had to hire within and without the region ..what I can offer on his 'qualifications' are as follows:

1. Qualifications are important obviously, BUT levels of qualification in a field are not always the end all and be all of hiring. I know engineers with a Bsc who are 100 times more useful that peeps with say an Msc. Too many examples to highlight.

2. Sometimes your 'ideal' candidates just ask for too much and you can't afford them.

3. The interview process looks for abilities beyond just the qualifications and experience...soft skills assessment is a critical part of the recruitment process. That is part of the reason why HR typically sits in on interviews for even technical roles.


A recent personal experience...I was looking for ideally an experienced mech engineer with familiarity with a specific type of machine. The candidate who checked all the 'technical' boxes including years of experience could barely speak English and also raised many red flags around his ability to deal with push back from junior staff...which was a well known potential challenge.

In the end ...we went with a younger, less experienced guy from within the region who's qualification was Industrial engineering, but we made a call on his ability learn and grow and also utilize technology to improve processes etc..even though he didn't have the ideal experience with that specific machine...we made a call re his ability to learn and think on his feet and adapt accordingly. In the end we figure that he was good person to leverage the senior technicians and mechanics around him to do a good job. The jury is still out on whether we made the right call...but this is fairly normal stuff.

Just offering a perspective on what that process could have been. We need to stop focusing so myopically on the 'level' of the paper qualification. The obvious concern stems from the appearance of home-boyism and well clearly the Guyneez crowd point to Shiv's higher level of certification. I for one have no idea on how they interviewed and cannot say whether Sammy's appointment was the better one or not. Just offering how this COULD have unfolded. I will admit though..that I from listening to interviews of Shiv and Sammy form their playing days..I would suspect that Sammy would have interviewed more impressively...which by itself doesn't mean much. I have seen some GREAT interviewees turn out to be snake-oil salesmen too.

Its not perfect science.

Musicman I eh defending Sammy....I offering a plausible line of logic for his hire that does not go the route of home-boyism.

In reply to Cheeks

Analogy not applicable here....
Process of recruitment...
First an advertisement.. description of the job, eligibility requirements,expected salary..

2nd.... Applications checking...those with Required qualifications are shortlisted...
Now here is the opaqueness.....CWI advertisement stated...

First..5 years experience
2nd... World-class coach with international or first class credibility..
Sammy fails in both...his application ought to have been rejected at the threshold....only those who fulfill al or most eligibility criteria should have been called for interview...
But, here a man with no required qualifications not only got upto the interview stage but also the job...plea taken by most supporters that other applicants were not qualified.....let CWI release all names including the international coaches will coaching certificates....who were beaten to the post by Sammy....
It's simple case of autocratic appointment by Shallow administration...