K: I read that you always wanted to play cricket; so, when your family was moving away from the Caribbean—and in effect, away from West Indies cricket—was that on your mind?

R: I didn’t think about it because it all happened very quickly. What really happened was, my parents had been in England since the 50s. I was brought up by my grandmother, aunts and cousins, etc. So, I was part of seven grandchildren in the same house. It happened very quickly. Over the years, my father had tried to get myself and my sister, Margaret, to come to England, but my Grandmother always refused, she felt we were too young. I guess by the time I was 13/14—being one of only two males in the house—she felt, perhaps, I needed to be around males. I think she relented at that time. It was, one day I was in Barbados and then suddenly, the next day I was going to England. So, it was a very quick transition.

K: And after about nine years in England, you signed a professional contract with Middlesex. A feat which signified that you were good enough because you were being paid to play cricket. What did that accomplishment feel like?

R: It was fantastic. I really had two ambitions; I was fascinated by airplanes—I wanted to be a pilot—or a cricketer. I think, perhaps, cricketer first, pilot second. So, those were my two ambitions. Probably, at that time, the thinking would have been [to play] for the West Indies. That’s where I was living, I didn’t know I was going to go to England or anywhere else.

Yet, I went to England in 1967. And in 1970, I was actually on the MCC Young Professional Staff at Lord’s, on a two-year apprenticeship. And then my first professional contract, really, was in 1972. So, in actual fact, I started as a full time professional after five years. [That was] two and a half years from being an apprentice.

K: Can you recall receiving your maiden One-Day International call-up. And had you ruled out the West Indies by the time the call had come along?

R: I got my first international call-up in 1980. So, it was some six years after my First-Class debut that I got my International call-up. I would say so [that I did rule out the West Indies], yes, because by 1980 I had been living in England for 13 years. I actually got married in 1980 and had a son. And really, my life was very much revolving around England. I did actually come back to Barbados during the late 70s/early 80s. In the wintertime, I would come back and play, and during that period, I played for Barbados, as well. But I think, generally, England was going to be my home.

And realistically, if the opportunity was to come to play International cricket, I would have to take it for England, simply because of the facts I just outlined, but the other factor would have been that, had I gotten elected to play for the West Indies, it would have put me in the category of being an ‘overseas player’. And as you know, the clubs had a limit to the number of overseas players that they could have. Middlesex had their quotas already, in Wayne Daniel, the fast-bowler. So, for me to play for the West Indies, I would have placed myself in a position where my contract in England could have been on the line. Particularly in the 80s, where clubs were more interested in overseas fast-bowlers than they were batsmen. So really, the decision was quite an easy one for me, because it meant that I could play, whether I had a career at Middlesex or not. I could qualify for any English county to play First-Class cricket. 

K: So receiving an ODI call-up must have been an amazing feeling, then.

R: For me, the ODI call up was a big deal, because, at that point, no black player had played for England in One-Day Internationals. So, I became the first to play ODIs for England. Obviously, I was very, very, happy because from the time I was a boy, I wanted to play International Cricket and I wanted to be on the stage with the best players. And to be called up for a series against Australia, who, at the time, was probably the second-best team in the world, after the West Indies… They were a very powerful side. Some of the great players of Australian cricket were actually on that team; the likes of [Dennis] Lillie, [Jeff] Thomson, Greg Chappell, Rodney Marsh, etc. It was a very strong team, so I was delighted to have the opportunity to play against Australia. That was the summer of 1980 and it was a few months later, which was the start of 1981, that was when I got the call-up for the Test series in the West Indies.

K: As great as the ODI call up was obviously being set to be the first black cricketer to feature in Tests for England must have meant a bit more.

R: Yes, and there were different feelings and different reactions. Obviously, to be called up for the ODIs was great. I really looked forward to playing in those games, but, you know, when you are a kid growing up, really, what you thought about was Test cricket—that was the ultimate. Everyone wanted to play Test cricket. Every young boy that I grew up with wanted to play Test cricket and I was no different. So, naturally, when the Test call came, that would have taken precedence. So, the ODI call up was great, but then to be selected for the Test side was something that I really craved for many years. Then the added bonus was that it was a tour of the Caribbean, so it meant that I was coming back to areas that I was familiar with, where my family and friends were, and it was a great opportunity.

K: Do you remember what the headlines were when you were coming back to the Caribbean, the signs that met you at the airport? Or, even the reception you received at the grounds on matchdays?

R: The reports in the Caribbean were very, very, good. I remember, in Barbados, one particular headline was, ‘Our Boy, Their Bat’. But, I think, generally, right throughout the Caribbean, I received really good reception wherever I went. Fortunately, I have a lot of family spread around the Caribbean: I remember the first place was Trinidad and the Butcher clan in Trinidad—and they were at least 250 of them—came together and had this big party. So that really was good. I have strong family connections also in Guyana, because as you know, Basil Butcher, who played for Guyana and the West Indies, was a cousin of mine. His father is from my area in Barbados, he is a Barbadian. So, once I got to Guyana, it was exactly the same; the family came out and it was a big party. In other places, like Barbados, all my friends and family were there. Lots of family came in from overseas, from the US, Canada, England, etc. The reception was great. Antigua was fantastic because that was the first Test match ever played in Antigua in 1981, that was the beginning of Test cricket there, so there was a real feel around that Test match. So that was also special. The only place that I, perhaps, was not too sure about, was going to be Jamaica. Surprisingly, the reaction in Jamaica was fantastic. There was no hostility, I was really treated well while I was there and it was a fantastic experience. As it turned out, I actually played my best cricket in Jamaica. That was something that I really enjoyed.

K: And from a dressing room perspective, how was it for you being the first black player on an English Test team. Were there any controversies behind the scenes?

R: Everything went well for me, because I think one of the benefits for me was that, number one; within that England side, there were a number of my own teammates at Middlesex and that made it quite easy. In addition to that, most of the England players, at the time, were people that I knew very well from being on the County circuit a number of years—Graham Gooch, Geoffrey Boycott, David Gower and of course Sir Ian Botham—who was the captain. He and I went back from 1970 because both of us were apprentices in the MCC Young Professional Staff in 1970. So, most of the players in the team, I had known for a long time, so it was a fairly easy transition.

K: Yet, you never received a call-up after those five Test matches in the Caribbean.

R: Not after that. It was a very difficult series. As we know, the West Indies were the best team at that time and they were beating all teams, hands-down. England had a very good side, perhaps one of the strongest sides we've ever had, in terms of those players. We knew, obviously, that we had a fight on our hands, particularly in the West Indies, where they were particularly strong. We lost the series two-nil, but there were some very good performances by a lot of the English players. The likes of Gouch, Boycott and Botham, all did very well. We lost and 1981 [and] after that series, it was a year of real change within English Cricket. Because not only did they change players, but you may remember that during that 1981 period, England changed captains four times. Unfortunately, I was one of the persons caught in those changes.

K: But then you were back in contention for selection in 1983 when you came back into form. Unfortunately, you were injured. When did you realize that you were never going to be yourself again?

R: Since ’81, I had to work very hard to up my game, and in the winter of 1982, I was contracted by Tasmania, along with Michael Holding. We were the two West Indian players, and we played the series in Australia in 1982. Early in 1983, I really thought that the period in Australia [was where] I rediscovered my game, in 1982-83. That winter really was a great period for me, because I was able to work on my game. Cricket, in Australia, is very hard, so you had to be on top of your game and my game really was back to its peak. Now, when I came back from Australia, in April of 1983, into the English season, unfortunately for us, that year in ‘83 was a very, very, wet year. The season started [and] it was just wet every day. By July, we had only played six weeks of cricket because of the weather, but in that period, my form was such [that] I had scored over 700 runs in six weeks. And I had taken 36 wickets and I really felt at the top of my game.

Then obviously, one fateful afternoon in July, in a game against Leicestershire at Lord’s, I missed a short ball from George Ferris, the West Indian fast-bowler from Antigua—a very close friend of mine—and it struck me under the left eye. Which caused me to have multiple fractures and several operations and [ultimately] loss of vision in that eye. The reality after that was that the sharpness had gone out of the left-eye. It really was going to be difficult to play consistently at the top level and so that was a disappointing thing for me. I was on the verge of making it back, [and] I now sustain this injury which meant I was out of the game for the next year. I really had to fight to come back after that. Because, you know, when the vision—particularly in your left eye, when you are a right-handed batsman, which is your prominent eye—is now less than it was and you now suddenly have to experiment with positions of your head and all. I had to work very hard to get back at playing, but fortunately, I still played another seven years on the professional circuit. But I was never sharp enough again to play at the International level.

K: Was there ever a moment where you thought of giving up after the realization that there was no longer the possibility of International cricket? A moment where the fight was no longer in you to make it back to playing just County cricket?

R: No. It did not actually because I was a professional cricketer, that was my profession. I was not a surgeon or a veterinarian. I was a professional cricketer. I felt that I had to get back up and do what I did best. With the help of my wife and family and the medical personnel, I was able to get back on the field. But for me, it really was a case of trying to do my best for Middlesex and making Middlesex a successful team. We were a very successful team. Obviously, we won many, many, trophies, so there was motivation there. I knew I had to come to accept that playing at the International level was not going to happen and then just concentrate on playing professional cricket and try playing to the best of my ability.

K: Right. Can you first speak me through the on-field mindset of an individual who was born in one country, yet plays for another country?

R: I think, when you are playing, you are so caught up in that moment in the game, that that is all you concentrate on. Whether they were playing the English anthem [before] the game, that's where you were at that time, it didn't take anything away from [me] being a Barbadian, or being a Caribbean person. My life, at that time, was very much in England and that's the way I lived. I’ve been back in the Caribbean now for sixteen years and I can honestly say I know that I am probably more Caribbean than anything else, because this is where I am. This is where I live, this is where I do work, this is where I'm making contributions. So, at the time, no difficulty. I had no idea I was going to go to England and get myself in that position; that happened, I had to deal with it, and when it was over, and even right through it, I was always a Barbadian. I was born in Barbados, I was born in the West Indies, and that cannot be changed.

K: Secondly, do you remember where you were when the call came for the Rebel Tour?

R: I was in England because the Rebel Tour was slated for 1989. I was actually in my benefit year at Middlesex. What happens when you are at a County is, once you are a first-team player after you are given your first-team cap, you would then work towards 10 years and after 10 years, the club would award you a benefit. And the benefit is a year of activities where you get a committee together and you have to plan a year of activities to raise funds for yourself. 1989 was my year, so I was working very hard on that.

I was also coming towards the end of my career because I was, what, 36 then. The opportunity came to be a part of this Rebel Tour to South Africa to play with some good players because there were lots of top English players who were going. Even my own Captain, Mike Gatting, was leading the side. So, I initially agreed to play, not fully understanding the situation in South Africa, because as a cricketer, those things were not really a part of your life. What you saw on the TV was what it was. So you are [making the decision] as a cricketer. But after a while—and there were many reasons why—[but] after certain people tried to explain to me that it would not be a good idea to go because I would be helping the regime—I decided that, even though I was at the end of my career, and financially, it was very rewarding to go on that tour—I still felt that it was perhaps not in my best interest to take up that challenge. So, I then pulled out of the tour, which did go ahead in 1989.

K: Would you then say that education influenced your decision to withdraw from the tour?

R: Yes, I did get more education from the club, from friends, from family, from clergy, you name it. I think everyone, certainly, had a strong view of South Africa. The majority felt that there should not be any sporting connection with South Africa. There was a lot of weight around the country persuading you that you would be doing the wrong thing to go. Obviously, the other players went. I have nothing against people who went because it was a decision every individual had to make. They made their decisions and went through with it, but I had a change of heart and obviously did not go.

K: Ten years following retirement, in 2000, you applied for Head Coach of Cricket West Indies, then WICB. What would you say were you about to bring to Caribbean cricket?

R: I thought I could certainly assist the West Indies in developing. As you know, by 2000, the West Indies had been in decline for five years. So, we were struggling and struggling really badly. I felt that I had International knowledge. I was shortlisted and interviewed for the position. I did not get the position and all the time I felt that I was probably best qualified for the job. But such is life, you have to move on. It did not happen, but eventually, I came back to the Caribbean in 2004 as the Director of the University of the West Indies.

*In the second instalment of this series, Butcher spoke, in detail, of the development of sports at the University of the West Indies, Cave Hill Campus, under his tutelage*

K: What did you make of the appointment of Kieron Pollard as limited-overs captain of the West Indies?

R: I am not sure of the decision [itself] but if you do not change things, you will get the same results. Sometimes, a change is as good as the rest. Pollard in T20s, you know, is still a very sought-after player. He has won a number of CPLs, so he comes with good pedigree. Whether he is going to be the long-term answer for West Indies cricket is another matter. I doubt whether that will be the case, simply because age is no respecter of person. The time will come where he is no longer able to make his way in the team. But while he is still able to play, he is there.

I think what is really hampering West Indies cricket right now, is that, particularly in the T20s, if you see the number of players that they can have playing around the world, in these franchises and performing well; yet they cannot all come together and play for the West Indies, now that is a worrying factor. Because if you look at the rest of the world, with the exception of India—because India does not allow their players to play in any other country’s T20 League—but if you look at all the other countries; they seem to be able to [find] a balance between T20s around the world and their countries’ matches. [Yet] for some reason, our players do not seem to be able to do that. And that is going to be a problem because your best players are never around. When Australia has a series, whether there is IPL going on or not, they have their best players. The players who play for Australia are prepared to make that sacrifice.

For me, I think we have to move on and look to develop a cadre of players that will want to play for the West Indies, that will die for West Indies and want to improve West Indies cricket. I think what the West Indies must guard against is that we do not only think of a particular tournament coming up. I think the West Indies have to think more long-term. What do we want our T20 team to look like in five years’ time? What do we want our ODI team to look like in five years’ time? What do we want our Test team to look like in five years’ time? Not that there is a T20 tournament or World Cup next year, so we get this group together here and then in five years’ time, none of those players are anywhere around. I think we have to take a much longer-term view and build for the long-term.

K: I read the other day the West Indies will be sticking with Jason Holder as Test captain. I had no idea that his overall leadership was being questioned in red-ball cricket. In your view, is Jason Holder lacking in leadership?

R: Listen, the Caribbean is a very strange place, very fickle. In terms of, if you do well today, you are the greatest thing in the world. [But if] you have a bad day tomorrow; they go the complete opposite and castigate you. With Jason Holder, there is no difference. Most of these people who were singing his praises a year-and-a-half ago when they were beating England in the West Indies, a year later, they're saying ‘he's no good’, ‘he is not a good captain’, ‘he cannot motivate’, ‘he cannot bat’, ‘he cannot bowl’. That's the nature of the West Indies.

Now, Jason Holder has never had a very strong team to captain and I think if you take into context what he had to work with, for a number of years, particularly coming into the job as a young man; I must say that he has done a very good job. Because that job would have crippled many others and many more experienced players and captains than Holder—if they had the opportunity to captain those sides. I think the fact that he has been able to get a modicum of results and then improve himself personally, with bat and ball, really is a testament to the job that he has done. The fact of changing for the sake of change, it makes no sense. If you change from Jason Holder, who are the persons that have their hands up saying ‘I'm the man’, ‘here are my credentials’? Where are they? So West Indian supporters, unfortunately, are not very patient people, and in sport, you have to be patient, because it is a long process.

K: Finally, what have you made of the bemusing form of Shai Hope?

R: He is in a very difficult situation, there is no question about that. He had a very lean last few years and the writing must be pretty close to the wall. He just really has not produced the sort of numbers that people expect his talent can. The fact that he has shown that he can do it: I mean, those two hundreds against England at Headingley, the only player who has ever scored two hundreds at Headingley in the whole history of the game of cricket, it must speak volumes. And his ODI record is very good. So, here is a player that undoubtedly has the ability to play this game of cricket.

There must be something wrong somewhere else because you cannot show those sorts of abilities on one hand, and then produce those meagre results on the other hand. Now, I have not spoken to Shai recently, I plan to because I am also a Barbados selector, so I plan to have a chat with him. Just on a personal level. Just to really see if I can understand the sort of things that are happening and to see if I can lend some of my experience to help him to get over that slum. It is heart-breaking to see a talented player who is really struggling like this. His [case] is confusing and I am sure it is confusing to him as well. I think West Indies should have it sorted because if you do, there's an asset there.

K: Would you then take him to New Zealand?

R: New Zealand is a tour where you could give him a break because if he does not go, you have players coming back into the team who were missing; the likes of Bravo and Hetmyer. You could, perhaps, give him this time off, not necessarily to say he is being dropped. But give him time off to work on his game. Because next year is a busy year for West Indies. I think there are three series in the West Indies. There is a World Cup. So, all sorts of things are happening. I don’t think if he misses a couple of months, it would do him a great deal of harm. The rest might be good for him, where he can take his time, work hard and look to come back in the new year. I would not be disappointed if he was left out and he should not be either.

Up Next: In Conversation with Roland Butcher: Barbados High-Performance Centre.