Message Board Archives
The sad story of South African Rebel cricketers
imusic
2016-08-23 13:03:17
There is an interesting story mentioned in West Indies Cricket and Anti-Apartheid Struggles (edited by Hilary Beckles) regarding a conversation between Alan Rae, President of West Indies Cricket Board, and Chang:
Rae: Mr Chang, there is a rumour that you are going to South Africa to play cricket. If this is not true, let us know, and we will assist you in scotching it.
Chang: Mr Rae, I have no contract to play in South Africa.
Rae: I did not ask you if you have a contract. Are you going to South Africa?
Chang: Me? Going to South Africa? No, Sir!
Chang left for South Africa next day.
HERBERT CHANG
Julien decided to end his cricket career when he went on the 1983-84 rebel tour to South Africa. He played a couple of blinders but failed with the ball, and played only 3 matches. The pace attack, consisting of Croft, Sylvester Clarke, Ezra Moseley, and Franklyn Stephenson was so strong that Julien found it impossible to find a place back in the side.
The players were ostracised on their return to their homeland. Opinions were divided (they are still divided) on the tours, and it took several years for the rebels to get their respect back in West Indies. The ban was eventually lifted in 1989, and even then Julien found it difficult to get a job and earn back respect in Trinidad & Tobago.
BERNARD JULIEN
"If West Indies win by Wednesday, you can never die. The spirits you know …" He is clutching a crumpled paper-bag of peanuts, his eyes are bloodshot, saliva drips out from the corner of his mouth, his head is tonsured, he is dishevelled, probably homeless, and he was just chased away by the cops from the boundary line. The kids call him Danny Germs. He used to be Richard Austin. A West Indies Test cricketer. He even represented Jamaica in football and was by all accounts a good table-tennis player. He was one of the cricketers who went on the 1983 rebel tour of South Africa and found himself ostracised on return. These days he is high on cocaine, wasting himself on the streets of Jamaica, and in general drifting his life away.
RICHARD AUSTIN
On the other hand, an exceptional talent like Austin has resorted to begging in Jamaica and is a cocaine addict, and the Test player Chang’s location remains unknown after he turned broke. Murray, unfortunately, is on the same boat: he is broke, lives in his childhood residence at Station Hill, and has been reduced to a bone-and-skin frame, and still is unable to overcome the menace of drugs.
Murray had to adapt to a harsh life for survival and to support his addiction. In between all this, Murray’s son Ricky Hoyte, playing for Barbados, kept the wicketkeeping legacy alive.
Murray could have been the backbone of a champion West Indian side. Instead, he lives in anonymity, poverty, and virtually a wreck — simply because he never realised the importance of discipline in a sportsperson’s life.
DAVID MURRAY
Richard "Danny Germs" Austin, who played two Tests and a solitary one-dayer for West Indies in the 1970s, was at one time known as the "right-handed Sobers". Locals still talk fondly about Austin's talent - he could open the batting, play in the middle order, bowl canny offspin and sharp medium pace and keep wicket as well. Austin last played competitive cricket in 1983. Today he is a wreck, begging on the streets of Kingston, taking refuge in cocaine. Herbert Chang played one Test for West Indies on the 1978-79 tour of India and had a distinguished first-class career. He was not allowed to play after 1983. They say he lives in Jamaica but nobody knows where. They say he lost most of his money to a woman he trusted. They say he is mentally unstable. They say he is dying.
Lawrence Rowe, one of the finest batsmen to have played for West Indies, was a national hero in Jamaica ... until 1983. He then decided to emigrate to Florida to become a businessman. Locals remember him being severely ostracised, hiding in the Kingston Club to watch Tests at Sabina Park, not wanting to attract the public gaze. Franklyn Stephenson is widely regarded as the greatest allrounder never to have played for West Indies. At the peak of his career, when he replaced Richard Hadlee at Nottinghamshire and managed a staggering 1,018 runs and 125 wickets in a season, he could not make the cut. Even today, despite his expertise and vast experience, nobody wants his coaching services. Why? "It's all because of '83. Nobody has forgotten it still."
In Station Hill, a middle-class locality of Bridgetown in Barbados, you are likely to run into David Murray, son of the great Everton Weekes. Murray, a brilliant keeper and stylish batsman, was one step away from being a part of the legendary side of the 1980s. Sadly it proved a bridge too far. Things went downhill for Murray after 1983. These days he is almost a pariah in his home town. Skeletally thin, he is often spotted on the beaches, providing foreigners with "stuff". He refuses to speak initially but opens out freely once he has wangled $20.
The common thread linking all these cricketers is the summer of 1983, when 18 West Indian 'rebels' undertook a path-breaking tour to South Africa. On January 15, 1983, under the shadow of Cape Town's Devil's Peak mountain, with a cloud of racial tension hovering, in an intensely oppressive political climate, began one of the most controversial series of all time.
THE UNFORGIVEN
Runs
2016-08-23 13:07:02
In reply to imusic
Bacchus was a lucky one I guess, he had Canadian citizenship. 
Courtesy
2016-08-23 13:09:52
In reply to imusic
Wasn't a stand at Sabina Park named after Sir Lawrence Rowe?
natty_forever
2016-08-23 13:14:00
In reply to Courtesy... yes they tried it, never lasted.
imusic
2016-08-23 13:17:47
In reply to Courtesy
They did.
And then revoked it.
Apparently Rowe apologized for & regretted his part in the rebel tour of South Africa.
The Jamaican Cricket Board then named the stand after him
Rowe subsequently said he did nothing wrong in going to South Africa
And the board revoked their decision to name the stand after him
SOURCE
imusic
2016-08-23 13:20:14
In reply to Runs
Many people don't remember that Bacchus went to South Africa as part of that Rebel team.
googley
2016-08-23 13:21:42
In reply to Runs
now you know why he is has not been involved in WI cricket, coaching certificate and all! 
Courtesy
2016-08-23 13:25:00
In reply to natty_forever and imusic
TKS.
imusic
2016-08-23 13:31:58
1982-3 squad:
Lawrence Rowe (captain)
Richard Austin
Herbert Chang
Sylvester Clarke
Colin Croft
Alvin Greenidge
Bernard Julien
Alvin Kallicharran
Collis King
Everton Mattis
Ezra Moseley
David Murray
Derick Parry
Franklyn Stephenson
Emmerson Trotman
Ray Wynter
Albert Padmore (player/manager)
1983-4 squad:
Lawrence Rowe (captain)
Hartley Alleyne
Faoud Bacchus
Sylvester Clarke
Colin Croft
Alvin Greenidge
Bernard Julien
Alvin Kallicharran
Collis King
Monte Lynch
Everton Mattis
Ezra Moseley
David Murray
Derick Parry
Franklyn Stephenson
Emmerson Trotman
Albert Padmore (player/manager)
FuzzyWuzzy
2016-08-23 13:56:25
In reply to imusic
All the Bajans have been rehabilitated. ..even Murray.
Runs
2016-08-23 14:00:56
In reply to googley
imusic
2016-08-23 14:24:03
In reply to FuzzyWuzzy
With 9 bajans in the team in the team the first tour and 11 on the 2nd, I could understand why you would say they "rehabilitated"
FuzzyWuzzy
2016-08-23 15:03:15
In reply to imusic
I don't know what you are getting at but soceity has accepted all the guys without scorn over time. Admittedly it was not immediate and it did take time.
I hear stories on here about how some countries still ostracising players.
cricketmygame
2016-08-23 15:12:40
In reply to imusic
did u read Cullinan piece on cricinfo? said rebel tours helped them.
imusic
2016-08-23 15:27:34
In reply to cricketmygame
ARTICLE
The point remains....Blacks in South Africa were considered to be sub human at that time. They were openly discriminated against and the laws of the land at the time mandated and reinforced that discrimination.
A black man going there AT THAT TIME to participate in sport merely endorsed the then South African government's discrimination. And those black men that went had to endure the same discrimination. For rand.
The rebel cricketers...and anyone one else going there or anywhwer else that apartheid was LAW were rightly ostracized. It doesn't matter what their individual circumstances were. There simply was and can be no justification for going.
Was it a sad situuation for some if not most of them? Absolutely. But actions have consequences. They alone have to live with the consequences of their actions. Some cool with it...like Croft. Others pay a heavier price.
So it is
Courtesy
2016-08-23 15:40:32
In reply to imusic
Isn't their sojourn to South Africa the same as maximizing one's earnings and putting bread on the table?
jacksprat
2016-08-23 15:53:58
In reply to cricketmygame
did u read Cullinan piece on cricinfo? said rebel tours helped them.
Was that not the point of the blood money tours- to help whites like Cullinan to gain entry through the back door by circumventing the sanction?
It was all for propaganda purposes and evidence that the worldwide sanctions had been working.
Mr.Mandela and the ANC had been very successful in getting South Africa banished was world sport and punitive sanctions imposed on the racist regime.
To its credit Jamaica was one of the first countries to impose economic sanctions on the racist regime, circa 1950.
A bitter irony then, that one of her citizens, Lawrence Rowe would later be prominent in leading those mercenary tours and even allowed himself the indignity of being designated "honorary white' in an effort to to insulate him and his team from the routine discrimination and oppression usually accorded ordinary Black people in South Africa.
I heard Rowe in an interview gushing about how "well" he and his team had been treated.
The racist apartheid regime had had their PR coup, with him as one of its chief puppets but lacking the education and sophistication to realise this!
imusic
2016-08-23 15:59:01
In reply to Courtesy
No. Context.
spider
2016-08-23 15:59:45
In reply to jacksprat
He said he didn't know anything about any honorary whiTe designation
Courtesy
2016-08-23 16:00:44
In reply to imusic
Care to expand?
Context does not change feeding a family and earning a salary from one's job.
imusic
2016-08-23 16:04:25
In reply to Courtesy
I don't have to expand a thing. If you don't understand of your own volition, you never will.
imusic
2016-08-23 16:04:37
The 18 West Indians had not just undertaken a tour but defied their governments, the United Nations and the cricket authorities to enter the forbidden land of apartheid. There were ominous precedents in this regard. In 1970 the Guyana government had declared that Garfield Sobers, then West Indies' captain, would not be allowed into the country unless he apologised for a visit to Rhodesia on which he had been photographed having lunch with Prime Minister Ian Smith. In 1974 an international team sponsored by the British financier Derrick Robins were not allowed to include Guyana and Trinidad & Tobago on their itinerary because Robins had also sponsored a similar team to South Africa. In 1981 the Georgetown Test was aborted because England picked Robin Jackman, who had played as a professional in Rhodesia and South Africa.
Now a West Indies team were actually playing in South Africa. It would no doubt serve as a PR coup, indicating that the country had indeed broken down the barriers of apartheid, even though the system legally enforced was to the disadvantage of the black majority. The players were doomed once they went against the various governments that strongly supported the anti-apartheid movement.
Michael Manley, the Prime Minister of Jamaica, echoed the sentiment in his famous A History of West Indian Cricket: "To the members of the black diaspora the oppression which continues unabated in South Africa has become the symbol of more than a tyranny to be overthrown. Apartheid points like a dagger at the throat of black self worth in every corner occupied by the descendants of Africa."
Courtesy
2016-08-23 16:06:37
In reply to imusic
I don't have to expand a thing. If you don't understand of your own volition, you never will.
Mate, you are jumping to conclusions here...I reserve my right to be probing on an MB.
MB's sometimes engender thought and discussion.
Everything is not black or white...there are shades of grey.
jacksprat
2016-08-23 16:07:23
In reply to spider
He said he didn't know anything about any honorary white designation
If he said that he was either lying, ignorant, stupid or totally delusional (or a combination of all of them)!
This is a man who also said that he had always wanted to go to South Africa (presumably on his own "fact finding mission"). He is so delusional that he actually thought the blood money tour helped to end apartheid rather than help to strengthen and prolong it
Which self respecting Black man would 'always want' to go to place where it was the law of the land that people who looked like him were less than third class citizen and subject to discrimination and sudden brutality by organs of the state?
The Honorary White designation was the only way for Blacks to legally escape the oppression. It was usually given to visiting Black dignitaries or other high profile people of color.
I first encountered the term in 1976 when I read ER Braithwaite's (the author of To Sir With Love and later a Guyanese ambassador to the UN) book of the same name.
camos
2016-08-23 16:18:21
as I grow older and a little wiser I ask myself how familiar would a cricketer be with the evils of the then South Africa? I have a cousin who went to Cornwall College , mid to later 60's and I found among his old books,a textbook for Afrikaner!
imusic
2016-08-23 16:18:38
In reply to Courtesy
I hear you. I'll reiterate my answer to your original question.
No. It is not the same.
Respeck
Courtesy
2016-08-23 16:23:22
In reply to imusic
Ok, OK let's end it.
It violated the UN sanctions at the time and was not in keeping with the spirit of the UN Charter.
I was only attempting to have a discussion on the matter.
imusic
2016-08-23 16:25:48
In reply to Courtesy
It violated the UN sanctions at the time and was not within the spirit of the UN Charter.
For me...it's more than that.
No worries mate. All good.
Courtesy
2016-08-23 16:26:08
In reply to imusic
deleted... because I responded to a post which no longer ezists.
Courtesy
2016-08-23 16:30:06
In reply to imusic
For me...it's more than that.
No worries mate. All good.
I noticed you changed your original post immediately above.
If it's not imposing anything on you I'll be delighted to hear your perspective (more than that).
Khaga
2016-08-23 16:31:46
In reply to camos
Interesting thought process. Could it be equated to West Indians migrating to the US pre-Civil Rights movement era?
jacksprat
2016-08-23 16:34:44
In reply to camos
as I grow older and a little wiser I ask myself how familiar would a cricketer be with the evils of the then South Africa?
It would be hard for Rowe, and at least the other Jamaicans to feign ignorance. It was the topic of the day!
-What did they think the reaction to the South African-born Tony Greig's "grovelling" comment was about?
-What did they think the controversy surrounding Jackman and the 1981 England tour of the Caribbean was about?
-There is a reason why Rowe, et al, lied to Allan Rae and the JCA, the PM of Jamaica, and their peers, about their intentions, to the very end, before sneaking off to join the blood money tours.
-South Africa and its racist apartheid regime was constantly in the news and images of the Sharpville massacre and other atrocities of the SA regime were a staple of the news.
-What was so unique about the apartheid regime that would inspire Rowe, by his own admission, to want to go there to "see for himself"?
Courtesy
2016-08-23 16:36:08
In reply to Khaga
Interesting yes, but the cricketers should have known and read about the Forbes Burnham and the Robin Jackman affair.
This was major news at the time.
Runs
2016-08-23 16:50:10
In reply to Courtesy
We all knew about the apartheid system was front and center in the media. To feign ignorance is being more dishonest about it.
Courtesy
2016-08-23 16:52:23
In reply to Runs
Not only that...It was an era when "black awareness" and "black power" were sweeping the region.
imusic
2016-08-23 16:52:24
as I grow older and a little wiser I ask myself how familiar would a cricketer be with the evils of the then South Africa?
Unless Trinidad was an anomaly regarding attitudes to South Africa at that time, I can't see how ANYONE in the Caribbean wouldn't be familiar with apartheid and it's effects.
And I was living in Trini at the time. I traveled throughout the islands. even if one wasn't interested in politics, one certainly knew what apartheid was and who it affected.
The music of the times reflected the situation. From Bob Marley's WAR & Get Up Stand Up, to Brother Valentino's Stay Up Zimbabwe, to Black Stalin's Bun Dem....and more....it was something you couldn't NOT be aware of.
Maybe because in Trini we had the black power movement in the 70's with the now late Makandal Daaga and so we're more aware of it...I don't know.
But then you have examples of the stern reaction to Sobers' visit to Rhodesia...and Guyana's Burnham perhaps saving Sobers' international career. So Bajans would definitely be aware.
Jamaicans have always been very vociferous in their condemnation of apartheid practices so I would have great difficulty believing any Jamaican cricketer that claimed ignorance about apartheid and what it stood for.
Runs
2016-08-23 17:00:39
In reply to Courtesy
I also remembered Ian Smith and Rhodesia being in the news for same policies I was a youth back then and radio and newspapers were my friends. TV did not make it to Guyana as yet. 
Courtesy
2016-08-23 17:06:39
In reply to Runs
TV did not make it to Guyana as yet.
There was TV in Saint Lucia then with "Dark Shadows" with
Banabus Collins etc, but you had to congregate at the neighbour's house to view it and CBC ended their programming at 10.30 pm.
Thank God for Barbados and CBC Tv then.
imusic
2016-08-23 17:20:15
In reply to Courtesy
There was TV in Saint Lucia then with "Dark Shadows" with Banabus Collins etc
ANGELIQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Disciple
2016-08-23 17:21:55
Sad to say but most of our cricketers would make a similar choice today. Let's face it, these guys sacrifice a lot to try and make it to the top, but only a few can make the final XI. There is no safety net like county cricket in the UK for the cricketers who don't get picked for WI duty. It's all or nothing.
The T20 leagues mean that players like DR Smith can earn a living after being discarded by WI, but there are lots of other players who have not made a WI team and are not in demand by T20 franchises. Remember too it's not easy to watch ur peers earn USD in the hundreds of thousands while u slave at a minimum wage job to make ends meet. If there were to be a similar scenario to 1983, lots of our players would take up the offer.
Courtesy
2016-08-23 17:23:10
Courtesy
2016-08-23 17:25:26
In reply to Disciple
Brother, you have forgotten that over 90 cricketers get pay monthly way above the median income in the Caribbean.
.............
BTW, this is not an endorsement of the "Robin Hood" way in which it was done.
FuzzyWuzzy
2016-08-23 17:26:35
In reply to Courtesy
Using the poor cricketers were not aware is a weak defense. Even if a particularl individual didn't know by the time they gathered and lied and dodged officials to board a plane is enough to know they were aware.
imusic
2016-08-23 17:30:20
In reply to Courtesy
No man.....Angelique was the blonde that Barbnabus used to lust after.
Courtesy
2016-08-23 17:31:24
In reply to imusic
OK tks...who was the witch?
I recall Ben the gatekeeper.
camos
2016-08-23 17:38:14
In reply to jacksprat
these cricketers would not have had a good understanding of what the system in SA was,you forgot the amount and type of reading material that was banned before the mid seventies?
Runs
2016-08-23 17:44:48
In reply to camos
You are kidding me right? It was taught in all schools from ABC onwards, they all knew.
camos
2016-08-23 17:53:11
In reply to Runs
lucky you! see my post above about Afrikaner been taught as foreign language in school in Ja in the mid sixties.
Maispwi
2016-08-23 18:13:27
In reply to camos
these cricketers would not have had a good understanding of what the system in SA was
You eh really serious about dat statement?
Wasn Richards supposedly given a blank cheque and asked to name his price?
If a so called Dottie could be aware what excuse could the supposedly highly literate Bajans and the seemingly sophisticated Yaries have for bein unaware?
FuzzyWuzzy
2016-08-23 18:18:36
In reply to Maispwi
Hold your horses. Marshall and Haynes were also approached but declined after consulting the elders. So Bajans were aware. Don't mind camos he'll make any excuse for Yardies.
Maispwi
2016-08-23 18:23:47
In reply to FuzzyWuzzy
Ah was tryin to gi de man some rope
Ewart
2016-08-23 18:26:44
There is somewhere on this MB, an excellent interview of Rowe by Michelle Yamfoot.
Somebody should dig it up.
In the meantime, I must say that like just about 60% of the Jamaican population, I was angry with Rowe for what he did. (The 40% said he had every right to try and earn a living after being dropped from the West Indies team. Who was going to look after his family, they asked).
My point today, decades later, is that most people on a life sentence for murder would have got parole by now.
As bad as Rowe's behaviour was, he did not commit murder. "All have sinned and come short of the glory..."
We should be thinking of offering him forgiveness, especially so that we release ourselves from the bondage.
//
spider
2016-08-23 18:43:04
In reply to Ewart
Was it 60% of the Jamaican population that was against the tour. Rowe seems to remember a different number from a Carl Stone poll. If I'm not mistaken he remembers that a slight majority of the population sided with the rebels.
imusic
2016-08-23 18:45:02
This is how the Germans deal with the Holocaust. (Substitute Apartheid for Holocaust)
I will make this one a little more personal because I understood the question to be aimed in that way. I was born in 1985, so it was the generation of my grandparents and great-grandparents who were alive during World War II. I think for me, there were roughly three stages of realization.
Knowing there was some war in the not too distant past: I knew that my grandfather had been involved in a war, but that was something very distant for me. He only told the story how he had to ride a horse but was afraid of horses. The whole idea of war was not something I could understand at that time. But it was also clear from movies and stuff that Germany lost the war and that something horrible happened back then.
Learning about World War II and the Holocaust at school: Overall, I think we learned about this time period at least three times. The first time the Holocaust came up in detail was in grade three or four, at the age of 9 or 10. The whole topic had a weird fascination for me because it made sense of a lot of small things in German culture, and finally we learned all about it. At the same time, I was horrified. I couldn't imagine how people could believe these screwed-up ideas and do such horrible things in the name of these ideas. But it was a horror like I have for the witch trials and stuff like that. I didn't make the connection between the war my grandfather fought and World War II. Later, we went to the Dachau Concentration Camp (as most schools around Munich do), and it was interesting and informative but not really disturbing. In Germany, the whole idea of "your own people" is not encouraged, and there is not a big feeling of unity (except if it's about football/soccer). This anonymous answer tells you more about that.
Visiting Auschwitz: When I was 16, I participated in a student exchange with a Polish school, and we went to Poland for two weeks. In general, we had a great time, and the people were lovely. But of course, as a German when you are in Poland, you have to visit Auschwitz. This name stands for everything that happened, and the gate with its infamous writing is known everywhere. We came there as a mixed German-Polish group, and were separated so everybody could have a tour in their native language. So we were only 15 German teenagers, and that made it pretty intense. For me, it was the first time that I really understood the full monstrosity of the Holocaust, not only intellectually but also emotionally—and made the connection to my own family. If you have never been to Auschwitz, this is what you see there.*
And when I saw these things that were taken from the prisoners (there is also one room just filled with hair), all the pieces came together in my mind, and I realized the first time on an emotional basis the whole horror. And I think I was not the only one. I found the toughest guy in our group, who would normally never show feelings, standing in front of a display cabinet with baby shoes crying. When the tour ended, we didn't know how to look our Polish friends in the eyes again, because I think most of us felt unbelievably guilty as it was "our" grandparents who did that to "their" grandparents (together with many, many other innocent people). I remember us even talking about the fact that we were insecure on how to deal with that. Luckily, our Polish friends were pretty cool: When they saw us again after their tour and saw that we were all shocked and some still crying, they came up to us and told us that we shouldn't be ashamed at all and that we are not responsible for the deeds of our ancestors. It took me a few years to get to the point where I could really feel that way, but I got there.
Having grown up in Germany I have to say that I (now 34) can not remember not knowing about the Holocaust and the atrocities of WWII.
And that is how I feel today about it. The Holocaust was horrible, and I think as a country, we have the responsibility not to forget about it and also to do what we can to let something like that never happen again.
But personally I think I am not different from any other person on this planet: able to do the best and the worst. And it is my own responsibility what I make of that; for that, it doesn't matter what my grandfather has or has not done. Of course it would be nice to have ancestors I could be simply proud of, but in the end, who can? Every country has dark spots in history; ours just happen to be huge and pretty recent.
camos
2016-08-23 18:48:50
In reply to FuzzyWuzzy
why would I need to make excuse for Yardies, there were more Bajans and they were forgiven earlier than anyone else? But there is a big difference between a player who heard of the system and someone that understood its evils!
Ewart
2016-08-23 19:16:35
In reply to spider
You could very well be right! As time went by, I believe more and more people came to support Rowe.
//
imusic
2016-08-23 19:24:42
In reply to camos
One couldn't possibly be alive, in the Caribbean, and NOT hear this song...AND know what this song is about.
One of the very few songs I can recite word for word (I way more into music than lyrics). And yes...I know it's from a speech.
Until the philosophy
which holds one race superior and another
inferior
is finally
and permanently
discredited
and abandoned
everywhere is WAR
me say WAR
and until there's no longer
first class and second class citizens of any nation
until the color of a man's skin
is of no more significance
than the color of his eyes
me say WAR
and until the basic human rights
that are equally guaranteed to all
without regards to race
there is a WAR
and until that day
the dream of lasting peace
world citizenship
and the rule of international morality
will remain in but a fleeting illusion
to be pursued
but never attained
well everywhere is WAR
me say WAR
and until the ignoble
and unhappy regimes that hold our brothers in Angola
In Mozambique
South Africa
Sub Human Bondage
Have been toppled
Totally destroyed
Well everywhere is WAR
Me say WAR
WAR inna East
WAR in the West
WAR up North
WAR down South
WAR WAR
Rumors of a WAR
And until that day
the African continent
Will not know peace
We Africans will fight
We find it necessary
And we know we shall win
As we are confident
In the victory
Of good over evil
Good over evil yeah
Good over evil
spider
2016-08-23 19:58:56
In reply to Ewart
If I am not mistaken he said 67% of the population was on the player's side.
He refused to go at first. But they came back to him some time after because they were concerned not enough star players were making the trip and they wanted him as captain. Him refusing, he said, would place the trip in jeopardy and he had to consider the plight of others like Everton Mattis who was dropped from WI team, was from a deprived area, had about five children, no car, no house.
nick2020
2016-08-23 20:41:29
In reply to imusic
Ask powen about Murray.
imusic
2016-08-23 20:52:55
In reply to nick2020
powen bring murray back to redemption like he did with ryan hinds?
imusic
2016-08-23 20:53:33
In reply to spider
Him refusing, he said, would place the trip in jeopardy and he had to consider the plight of others like Everton Mattis who was dropped from WI team, was from a deprived area, had about five children, no car, no house.
So selfless
spider
2016-08-23 20:56:52
In reply to imusic
Maybe he is. The Lawrence Rowe foundation seems to do good work.
nick2020
2016-08-23 23:04:46
In reply to imusic
I have seen Murray out and about before.
He sacrificed all for a paycheck that he could not account for at the end of the day.
Runs
2016-08-23 23:18:42
In reply to imusic
Today we are re-living genocide with Syria, sadly many accept it as part of life and turn a blind eye. No alarm, no care, in time history will also judge this and the kids will say how selfish us humans were to allow.
TheTrail
2016-08-24 10:07:05
In reply to Courtesy
In reply to imusic
Wasn't a stand at Sabina Park named after Sir Lawrence Rowe?
Yeah, and one person here on this MB said: "over my dead body".
Courtesy
2016-08-24 10:13:28
In reply to TheTrail
Yeah, and one person here on this MB said: "over my dead body".
You fraid to call him or her out...call it out.
natty_forever
2016-08-24 15:39:06
In reply to imusic... Speech by H.I.M when he addressed the UN in 1963.
googley
2016-08-24 22:16:11
Even Mandela forgave the White Africans for the wrongs they did and yet West Indians cannot still forgive our players who toured there! SMH!
SirGarny
2016-08-24 22:57:57
In reply to Ewart
My point today, decades later, is that most people on a life sentence for murder would have got parole by now.
As bad as Rowe's behaviour was, he did not commit murder. "All have sinned and come short of the glory..."
We should be thinking of offering him forgiveness, especially so that we release ourselves from the bondage.
Well reasoned..both from a theological and human perpective...
Tagwa1
2016-08-25 13:09:05
In reply to imusic
Apparently Rowe apologized for & regretted his part in the rebel tour of South Africa.
So why didn't he give back the money if he was so sorry?
Tagwa1
2016-08-25 13:17:21
In reply to SirGarny
My point today, decades later, is that most people on a life sentence for murder would have got parole by now. As bad as Rowe's behaviour was, he did not commit murder. "All have sinned and come short of the glory..." We should be thinking of offering him forgiveness, especially so that we release ourselves from the bondage.
I always find that comparison disingenuous and appealing to the stupid.
When people commit murder they go to JAIL and when Paroled, they are allowed to Leave JAIL. Even then they are not forgiven and are banned from many places and opportunities. No one never says hey he committed murder and served his time so take it off his record. Pardon him.
They were not JAILED after coming from SA. It was a serious breach of protocol and disrespect the millions of South African blacks and Africans around the world to appease a racist and despicable system that was holding millions of our brothers and sisters in bondage as Bob so beautifully penned. All for a few pieces of silver. So what is their to pardon them for.
It wasn't as though they committed murder and were jailed. In fact banning them from Sabina Park and from WI cricket and taking Rowe's name from that section were SLAPs on the wrist and should never be compared to JAIL. They were not even asked to return the money.
They got off lightly for being willing and knowing participants in this charade. Not one of them being all West Indians could say they didn't know what they were doing and what was going on in South Africa. They were liars and cheats.
What they did was TERRIBLE at a time when people were fighting and dieing in Angola, Zimbabwe, Mozambique and South Africa. They were money hungry and showed disrespect to their Caribbean brothers and sisters and Black people everywhere.
They need to atone themselves.
spider
2016-08-25 13:25:08
In reply to Tagwa1
Are you saying they should have been jailed for going to SA?
Tagwa1
2016-08-25 13:31:12
In reply to spider
No.
I am saying the comparison, made all the time, comparing them to murderers is disingenuous.
Apples and Oranges.
They WERE NOT JAILED, they were not even asked to return the money.
They were only not made to play for west indies ect. Many of them couldn't make it anyway. A slap on the wrist considering what Africans and Caribbean people felt about the hate filled murderous regime that they went and hobnobbed with for a money.
Despicable episode in our cricketing history and it should always stay that way. Leave it that way so our children never forget.
Kay
2016-08-25 13:43:33
In reply to Tagwa1
the hate filled murderous regime that they went and hobnobbed with for a money.
Change that to "for a food"... and you will probably look at it differently
spider
2016-08-25 13:45:24
In reply to Tagwa1
I think the idea is that the life ban was too absolute and that only very few infractions warrant such absolute punishment. Someone mentioned that Mandela himself forgave the actual perpetrators of apartheid so should we continue to ostracize these men?
As strident in the cause as Viv was it appeared he held no hard feelings towards the players who made the trip.
imusic
2016-08-25 14:01:59
In reply to spider
I think the idea is that the life ban was too absolute and that only very few infractions warrant such absolute punishment. Someone mentioned that Mandela himself forgave the actual perpetrators of apartheid so should we continue to ostracize these men?
Too harsh?
Croft works in media and is a "respected" cricket commentator
Rowe has his foundation
Kallicharran is respected wherever he goes and does coaching clinics throughout the region
Some are sadder cases than others...like Richard Austin, Chang, David Murray etc. But there's no guarantee their lives would have turned out any differently had they not gone to South Africa.
One suffers the consequences of one's actions. WE ALL DO. ALL ACTIONS & INACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES
A lifetime ban from cricket when the majority of them were at or near the end of their playing careers isn't harsh at all.
As Fuzzy said....all bajans that went on those tours ave been "rehabilitated". I'm taking that as code for forgiven.
Each of them have to live with the consequences of their actions. Some or maybe even most have no issue with it.
As for Richards not holding hard feeling towards those players...there are people in my life now who back in the day, I would not have interacted with because of disagreements or certain actions.
However, because you move on...doesn't mean you forget.
spider
2016-08-25 14:16:11
In reply to imusic
I didn't think the life ban was too harsh at the time. I do now. But I was really responding to someone who seemed to think these men should still be banned since their actions was so despicable. I disagree with that and agree with the ban being lifted.
Ewart
2016-08-25 15:33:34
In reply to spider
...and he had to consider the plight of others like Everton Mattis who was dropped from WI team, was from a deprived area, had about five children, no car, no house....
Didn't know that. I believe I was out of the country when Stone published that article...
On another note. See how this post about an entire team has descended into personal abuse and sophistry simply because it has featured Rowe?
As you might have observed over the years, when that happens, I do not deign to dignify those comments with any kind of reply.
//
tc1
2016-08-25 15:36:58
In reply to Khaga
Interesting thought process. Could it be equated to West Indians migrating to the US pre-Civil Rights movement era?
West Indians were migrating to the USA in the 1800s
imusic
2016-08-25 15:51:48
In reply to Ewart
On another note. See how this post about an entire team has descended into personal abuse and sophistry simply because it has featured Rowe?
What personal abuse and sophistry? I'm curious why you would come to that conclusion.
As for "featuring"....wasn't Rowe the captain of both squads?
Tagwa1
2016-08-25 15:55:39
In reply to Kay
Change money for Food...hhhmmm
here is the problem with that. Many were approached didn't go and still eat. As for those who suffered and who went. One may have nothing to do with the other. Show me any island and I would show you a bunch of our most talented sportsmen with nothing to show for their efforts.
Botham said he couldnt look at his friend Richards if he had gone. Mohinder Amanath chickened out after the Indians read the consequences to him.
They were from the Caribbean, in many ways the cultural capital of the Anti Apartheid struggle...how could they??
Tagwa1
2016-08-25 15:58:19
imusic
2016-08-25 16:06:57
In reply to Tagwa1
Appreciated man.....we may disagree from time to time but respeck all de time.
spider
2016-08-25 16:34:31
In reply to Ewart
That figure was from Rowe and I can't find any way of verifying it. He also spoke about being one particular Caribbean Prime Minister who quietly gave them support at the time
tc1
2016-08-25 17:05:18
In reply to Tagwa1
hey were only not made to play for west indies ect. Many of them couldn't make it anyway. A slap on the wrist considering what Africans and Caribbean people felt about the hate filled murderous regime that they went and hobnobbed with for a money.
Do you recall that Ray Charles and Arthur Ashe toured apartheid SA and were not even slapped on the wrist.
I say it was a noble deal for the Caribbean gov't taking this stand as well as Indira Gandhi.
By the way were there an outcry/ disassociation by . the WI players at the time against the rebels.
It is fair to conclude that if those players who refused were not employed , they might have taken the poison too.
Tagwa1
2016-08-26 08:39:06
In reply to tc1
Do you recall that Ray Charles and Arthur Ashe toured apartheid SA and were not even slapped on the wrist.
They were not West Indians as far as I can recall.
The US has a long standing policy of hypocrisy with the racist south africans, including propping them up. What they do should NEVER be anything we as Caribbean people should want to emulate.
