Message Board Archives

Christian Nationalism is un-American. even by the chosen one  


"The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion; the nation’s chief law enforcement officer has no business denouncing those who exercise that freedom by choosing not to endorse any religion."  This is one of a thousand ironies wrapped inside a thousand hypocrisies buried inside the womb of ignorance from whence there is no escape.The ghost of Winston Churchill is smiling.

People are tired of evangelicals imposing their beliefs on them, so the other side knows full well that you can't force someone to believe something contrary to their opinions. Evangelicals want to strip civil rights from gays and force their traditions on non-believers and non-Christians alike. And when they're stopped from doing so, they consider themselves persecuted. Abusers often portray themselves as the victims or justify their bad behavior by saying their victim deserved it.
Churches received tax-exempt status in exchange for staying out of politics. Because many prominent church leaders have discarded their neutrality and become political, they broke the compact  Why should Churches not pay taxes if they make their mission political advocacy? No one's forcing them to do anything. The point is, preventing them from forcing other people to live as they wish.

America is a secular country, and what you're describing sounds like a Christian theocracy.  When we try to play God is when we are at our weakest. AG Barr is trying to play God. He's not co-opting God. But using His name to justify his own motives.William Barr professes to be a devout Christian. But here he is, apparently advocating both religious intolerance—establishment of not only his religion but his version of its principles—as well as broad cultural intolerance in the name of supposed religious freedom. And he is doing it from a platform of his own lies, both to the Senate to help assure his own confirmation and to the American public to blunt the effect of the Mueller report.

I can’t help but think Barr’s speech was nothing more than the religious equivalent of WorldWide Wrestling. .Many Americans realized how corrupt and dishonorable Trump would be. But I doubt many realized just how corrupt and dishonorable Barr would be. also.

Americans couldn't help believing Barr would have at least an iota of respect for the great institution placed in his care, or failing that, at least an iota of self-respect. He has neither. He misled Congress and the American people in his false summary of the Mueller Report; he abused his office by conspiring with Trump to manipulate Ukraine for corrupt purposes; he failed to comply with congressional subpoenas; and now, with this despicable public tirade, he proves himself incapable of upholding the first Amendment's establishment clause, thereby violating his oath of office to support and defend the Constitution of the United States...and to bear true faith and allegiance to the same.

It's not just evangelical working class voters but evangelicals up and down the economic spectrum. There's been a shocking blending of religion and politics on the right and perhaps it will provoke an overdue revocation of the tax-exempt status of religious institutions and donations to them. While Americans vehemently disagree with their political views, Many support the right of evangelicals to express them, but Americans don't think that they should be able to do so from a tax-exempt perch.  Although churches historically have enjoyed tax exempt status, there is nothing in the First Amendment religion clauses that requires it. As an agnostic, I've always been troubled by how American law privileges certain religious views. Religious exemptions generally are wielded by conservatives as a means to avoid compliance with civil rights laws. "Free exercise" should not provide cover for dangerous and discriminatory behavior.

Many Americans left the Christian faith decades ago because those carrying its banner not only advocated principles antithetical to the teachings of Christ but had also forfeited any moral legitimacy they may have had by the way they lived their own lives. How infinitely sad to see the faith some was taught as a child—one of love, compassion and tolerance, of living a moral life—now being further bastardized, this time into a political weapon.  Sociobiology indicates we are hard wired for both altruism and cooperation... and our biology precedes any cultural manifestation of religion. It may be more useful to think of religion(s) as clothing on the body. The belief "only in the here and now" is a mischaracterization of secular ethics. Most atheist find such comment very heartening! Maybe an alliance between non-believers and the very large group (majority, even) of what Americans call the "religiously sane," born of mutual respect, is the best way forward, an effective counter to evangelical zealots whose beliefs are simply (and totally) at odds with a pluralistic society governed by the Constitution.

Christianity at its beginning used to bring people into the fold by emphasizing its attractive aspects, such as an afterlife in Paradise. Over the years,Christians in America seems to think their religion gives them the right to discriminate against people whose beliefs they do not share.Based on the Scripture, the Bible nowhere forbids birth control, either explicitly or implicitly, and the Little Sisters of the Poor, as part of the Catholic Church, are simply practicing a religion made up by that organization.

Religion and politics need to be separate, and the founders knew this. If religious organizations want to get involved in politics, then they deserve to lose their tax-exempt status. Secular humanists like many quite frankly don't care what you believe. They will not, however, allow anyone to impose your beliefs on the rest of America. They will fight you tooth and nail on that one, and have the law on their side, ignoring blatherings by William Barr to the contrary.  Barr conflates secularism with atheism. Americans can believe in the separation of church and state and at the same time have a strong faith in a particular religion. So did many of the founding fathers. Many of the original settlers fled Europe because they were not able to openly practice their faith.It's important to note that secularism is NOT the same as atheism; secularism is the belief in the separation of church and state as guaranteed by the First Amendment, and any religious person who is not an outright totalitarian ought to call themselves a secularist.

Barr's attack on secularism is in fact a direct attack on the US Constitution - not a good look for the Attorney General.

And even if he did mean to attack only atheists the critique stands. Freedom of religion applies to those who don't believe as well. Separation of church and state: It’s not just tolerance of difference in faiths. Where is the constitutional commandment to have faith? What Barr is really attacking is freedom of thought. Not just militant atheists. Many US citizens believe in a God, but have not become brainwashed in cult-like fashion by the Evangelicals. Americans will fight alongside the militant atheists, because they know that lying constantly, manipulating elections, selling hate, defending mass shootings and sexual assaults, committing financial fraud, violating laws, obstructing justice and undermining our democracy are wrong, and distinctly un-American.

America is not perfect but it is hard to find another country in the world where you have more freedom to practice your individual faith. Or to have no faith at all. And that is exactly what the founders wanted for America . They did not want an established state religion like England because they saw what the results were. When the state picks a preferred faith it corrupts the State and the Religion.   What is so admirable about America: you are entitled to this opinion/belief and you do not have to live in fear of defending it. And also true for people who do not share your beliefs. Tolerance and goodwill are blessings America has bestowed (recognized might be a better word) on its citizens, unlike some places on earth where not adhering to the orthodoxy of the majority can get you killed, jailed, or reviled.

When Americans think the Administration can't do or say anything more outrageous than the day before, they do. An Attorney General at Notre Dame of all places spouting hate and bigotry is beyond the pale. The hypocrisy in young Barr is strong. Barr posits that secularists are the root of all evil. Yet, this is the administration that wanted to bar all Muslim's, people of faith, from entering America because they viewed them as a threat. Significant portions of the evangelical wing of the Republican party would not vote for Mitt Romney because he is a Mormon. You may disagree with the theology of the Mormon faith but you would have to be a idiot to attribute secularism to that religion. Barr isn't defending religion. Barr is defending one faith. And that is unconstitutional.

Many atheists have strong moral compasses too, you know.To suggest that they don't, as AG, not only ignores that fact, but actively cultivates the myth that when it comes to freedom of religion, not all citizens are equal, some must be rejected as being by definition "amoral" because of their beliefs. That's anti-constitutional.And it's pretty weird coming from an AG who accepts to work for one of the most immoral presidents in history. 

The influence of American evangelicalism disappears as soon as possible. Most would prefer that the influence of atheistic secularism increases because generally atheistic secularists do a far better job of following Jesus than does the typical American evangelical. Jesus explicitly condemned those who make a show of praying in public and those who oppress the poor. Trump's evangelical supporters love to pray loud and long as they push for policies that oppress the poor and immigrants. Secular atheists obviously never pray in public and typically support policies that assist immigrants and the poor. This country would likely more closely follow the teachings of Jesus under the influence of secular atheism than under American evangelicalism.  And remember that not all secularists are atheists. Some are agnostics, who just don't know about whether or not there is a god, or a supreme being and live as if this life may be all there is, so better do kindness now while we can and worry about the afterlife later.Regarding Secularism as a framework that promotes the intersection of all faith traditions and philosophies, including Atheism and Humanism, helps us break free of parochialism and dogmatism.Americans have much, much to learn from each other.

Separation of church and state is also supported by the religious principle "Render under Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's". Now  62 years after Joe McCarthy died Conservatives have a Russian operative in the White House and believe he's chosen one and has the mandate of heaven.

Anyone who can't comprehend how serious America's situation is, is naive.

Just an Opinion

The Puritans were considered overtly conservative.

In reply to maj

In reply to sgtdjones

They were considered extremists in England.