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Top line batting wasting in the lower order. Total lack of talent recognition to the fullest. Harding also have to sit and wait on Cummins and others.

In reply to seaegg99

Don’t let me even start.

Look at a relaxed Kyle Mayers playing in his natural habitat.

They play with people’s careers.

Barbados has not always use it's abundance of talent well.

Their players mostly have benefited from franchise cricket

Stick a pin for Jofra Archer

Yes Greaves is certainly coming on, why do B/dos persist with Stoute, he rarely does anything outstanding.

In reply to dayne

I would have liked to be able to refute what you guys posted...but my best response is that we are spoilt with abundance and unfortunately...we have been poor people managers ..

as for the Stoute comment...his father would have you quartered for suggesting such...

nothing against the lad but he is not as good as many many many others but apparently has a chorus of people who will beg for him every season...

Bim stick in this class and friend thing. That is why many a young cricketer find other things to do and not progress. The have will push the haves to levels they have no right reaching.

I have been saying for years these fools running Bajan cricket have no foresight whatsoever. They are the ones that should be taken to task for the failure of WI cricket. They have no clue of how to use the past to prepare the youths the higher levels.

In reply to seaegg99


Bro you said it all...I would shake your hand re Bajan cricket.

When Charlie Griffith was Chairman of Selectors...no way a Harding and a Holder sit down for Cummins and three spinners at Kensington Oval like under Henderson Springer. Charlie didnt care about friends or class...he just like to see pace and aggression!

I surely understand the sentiments here, however, playing for WI-E gives the guys opportunities to develop, the reason why Cummins and Nurse are both in the pride squad is because there is no way either can be consider as an emerging player, Harding and Greaves meet that criteria, this is a way to have them all playing super 50 and developing(maybe not Cummins or Nurse)

would i have preferred them playing for the pride sure....but i am as long as they perform, maybe they might catch the West Indies selectors eyes and get a look in, wouldn't that be mission accomplished???

You guys talk some much Shiite, the problem is that Bim have so much avg talent, e,g
springer, Mayers, Greaves and Primus are all the same, Boyce and Bishop are the same, Kirton , Boucher, McCaskie , Mosely and Jonathan Drakes are the same in term of talent.
Chemar, Drakes and Harding are above avg talent as players and hence are further along in term of development .
If you play Mayer’s, Springer and Primus, you have to leave out Greaves, similar if you play Bishop , you have to leave out Boyce.
Eight years ago Bim had above avg talents in Holder, Chase, Hope, Hope,Dowrich, Warrican, Roach , Brooks, Jordan, and Corbin , all made it to international cricket except the most talented player imo Corbin.
In the present set up all Bim players are gaining experience, our problem is that we are not producing that exceptional player to move from u19 to the international level immediately.

In reply to tc1

Your best post.

In reply to tc1 Problem is even the ones who do reach international level are still not becoming consistent players. Off the group of batsmen you list above, how man can play a ball above their waist at pace. I see only Holder as one who can. These fellas are not being developed as finished products anymore. Greaves has a lot of time to play the ball. Others are hopping all over the place when anything of pace comes at them. Still not finished products at 25 and older. No consistency whatsoever.

Harding and Greaves are usually outcast when the name brands are around so. Lucky a situation was created or again they would be home watching Cummins run up and look pretty! These are youngmen whose bodies should be way more advanced for the international game. KB looks like he cant punch his way out a paper bag, likewise Chase.
They just reach certain levels and just stay there as average! I am I wrong? Every year at U19 the WI players are right there as top players. From that point on the jump to the next level is deviod of WI players. Why is this?

Only Holder and Roach can even be considered as world class players of all the names listed above.

In reply to openning

In reply to tc1

What does that have to do with the fact that some of these very few with talent don’t get the opportunities to organically develop as they should.

Kyle Mayers for example was on a tournament XI at a Youth World Cup so why 8 years later has he plays only a handful in deference to other mediocre players who have done less and have had extended opportunities?

Before Mayers there was the curious case of Ian Bradshaw who bar Chanderpaul was the outstanding junior player of his generation. He almost retired before he was belatedly recognized by BIM.

BIM has a deep deep history of doing shittite.

Not just Barbados

After all, aren’t we supposed to be in the franchise era of regional cricket? Why hasn’t anyone else signed him up?

He’s among the best young batting talents in the region IMO. And been that way for some time too. On the few occasions he played for Bim, they used to hide him down the order at 9 and play him more as a bowler.

He’s a useful medium pacer but his strength is, and always was his batting

In reply to imusic

I totally agree except if your homies don’t rate you why should I put one of my own aside to give you a spot?

Isn’t that what happens?

Franchise cricket is solving nothing because it’s new wine in old wine skins.

In reply to imusic

Agree with you on that. Fellas are developing game so late now that not much time is left for international level. Dale Richards, Brooks, Soldier boy etc. Not getting the former greats involved to teach the game to the youngsters is troubling. Since Lara and Chanders none are capable of putting together 2 or three good innings in a row.

I remember when Kanhai was captain seeing Lara and Adams sitting down with him talking during the test matches. Who does these fellas talk to that can impart such knowledge? GG, DH and Viv should be called in to start work the young batting talent on the way not just used as symbols of a long lost era!

In reply to mkcharles

From a movement of players standpoint, franchise cricket has been a disappointment

Franchises pretty much select the vast majority of players from the territory where the franchise is based with a token "outsider"

I'm thinking that the reason is perhaps less about insularity and more about economics.

The franchise will likely have to pay for airfare, ground transportation, meals, and accommodation for any player not based in that franchise location. The more "outsiders" there are, the greater the cost.

But if that's truly the case, then the whole franchise cricket thing...which as I understand it is mainly more about movement of players to different teams thus making teams more competitive, and giving players opportunities to play in different environments....is just a marketing exercise and not really grounded in reality. Or as you so eloquently put it, "new wine in old wine skin"

In reply to imusic

I think we are missing out on the coaching in that 18 - 21 age group. That is where the other countries young players make that jump, like we used to, and don't anymore. We are regressing in that same time period.

In reply to seaegg99

But is not now though. Our U19 teams have done well at World Cups in the past. But making that leap to mens international cricket successfully is where our players tend to falter. So you're right......that 18-21 age group doesn't necessarily transition well. But we've also had some successes:

Last year's team won the U19 world cup and from that team, Hety, Alzhari Joseph, and Kemo Paul have emerged as solid international performers.

In 2004...our team finished runner up and that team had Xman, Lendl Simmons, Rampaul, and Ramdin.

In reply to imusic

That was in 2016. They have been at this level now for 2 years now and where is the improvement. This doesn't seem to come until they are in their mid 20s. That is if they stay with the game. Holder and KB was on an U19 team too that did well. Only Holder,
Dowrich and Chase though have risen to become consistent test players. These guys are now 27 or there bouts.

In reply to seaegg99

That is worth discussing.

We suffer and lag behind others when it comes to making the transition into manhood at that precious juncture....again Exhibit A...Jofra Archer...

Literally is thrusted on the world stage during the BIGGEST Cricket Tournament ahead of several others...and not just any others but puts the lie to the saying that the Caucasian players would always get picked first...and ends up WINNING ENGLAND its FIRST WORLD CUP.


Compare our lads at that age to others...who seemed to LEAP FROG our lads when they meet again on the World stage...SURELY to my mind that specific period is when Maturity and access to a higher level of training must go hand in hand

the period from U19 to international standard, is the most critical one for any cricketer, failure to make the transition can destroy the career of the player, of all test playing nations/regions we are probably the worse if not close to the worse and it has to do with our poor FC infrastructure and systems that feeds that FC leagues

most of India U19 players already have solid FC experience and runs under their belt. Shaw, Gill, Pant to name a few, of recent time i can only recall Sarafraz Khan as one who didn't live up to expectations, he played well in the 2016 U19 world cup

until we fix the systems that feed our FC league and come to terms with franchise cricket, then this will continue to be our reality.
I have no idea how you can have a draft, and then still have trial matches to convene a selection panel to select a squad,

In reply to powen001

So plan to see. Here in the US we talk about the light coming on once you are in that age group. Some develop faster (KB) and dominate that level but you have to see through that because at the next level you will see his talent is wanting. Guys are not getting physically stronger either.

In reply to mkcharles

I would agree with you that Braddie was the most mismanaged player from Bim in the last 25 years, he was on par with Chanderpaul . However his career was on hold while he was at the university. The professor corrected this dilemma by insisting that cave hill field a team in the BCA.
How many avg players can you fit in one team..? As a ten year old , I saw Tony King ( 16-19 yr)dominated the Bim’s batting that included Sir Everton, Sir Garry , Sir Conrad and the late great Seymour Nurse.. I also saw a 18 yr old leg spinner Keith Boyce commanding a place in the same team.We have not produce a talent like Kemar Roach , who I am told run grown men on Saturdays as a 15 yo. Or a Ryan Hurley.

Many of our youngsters are of the same talent .

In reply to seaegg99

Nor are the mental adjustments coming fast enough...

Back in the 70's you had an entire Diaspora across the world pushing you to succeed and the weight of the responsibility was on them....

Today...I suspect..if its not INSIDE of them..the distractions are plenty...and I fear...some may believe they should be picked cause of one or two good performances for the rest of their lives.

Now... are you saying that both the COACHING/LEADERSHIP and Players need addressing or just the players?

In reply to powen001

All the above!

I must give credit to the musicmanbecause he stesdfastly stuck to Greaves. While i expeacted much more from Lewis. Greaves looks a class bat with time.

I hope Antonio Morris gets the coaching he needs now. Someone should get Desmond Haynes to work with him

In reply to tc1


You cannot devalue a product, and expect to produce world class cricketers.
A number of our good young players, move to clubs, and will play Elite/1st Division cricket whether they are performing or not.
A number of these youngsters would be playing either Intermediate or 2nd Division cricket back in the day.
St. Catherine is suffering the same fate as Maple, Carlton , by having a 1st Division that matches the Elite division.

In reply to seaegg99

all of the above...


agreed...

So who drives them to A recognize the need to address it?

OR

are they aware and working on it already?\\

Finally.


Who keeps them accountable?

In reply to seaegg99

Yes,,Imusic has stuck by Greaves...

As I have stuck by Roston...

I happen to be aware of his work ethic....so your initial post is what jumped out at me...

I know HE is focused and always looking to do better...and my wish for him is that HE ...and ALL OTHER team members be surrounded by positive encouraging environments that stay focused on Work ethic and vision casting etc

In reply to powen001

Unlike my friend openning who has abandoned kraigg brathwaite after finally admitting what I have been telling him for so long.......hype cannot bat!

In reply to imusic


NAsty!!

ha ha

Kraigg actually is a good study in exactly what we are discussing


Kraigg was a phenom...younger...but now...he struggles to compete ....I believe his confidence is shot...and perhaps...some muscle and endurance training cant hurt..others he was waaaay better than across the entire cricketing world are now pushing on and leaving him behind,

In reply to imusic

Having constructive criticism is not abandoning.
I've seen too many great International batsman, to support the way he is batting, at this time.
The guy is in survival mode, every time at bat, not good for any batsman.

In reply to openning

confidence shot...

always sad to see..

In reply to powen001

It is more than confident, An Antiguan brother, who saw Kraigg at the U19 level, called to tell me after saying him playing for Barbados, that his batting coach should be fired,
At the U19 level, he was Legside dominant, someone took his strength and made him into the batsman he is now.
The On-drive, Straight-drive being right hand dominant, is gone.
Good coaches make you better, they do not try to clone you.
His On-drive is non existent, he look awkward, as he try driving the ball.
I believe he should thank the people that was part of his early development, and surround himself with a new professional group.

In reply to openning

I told you he flat out cannot bat from since U19 level

You were blinded by volume centuries mostly against schoolboy bowling

Anyone who cannot even place a half volley in the gap for a couple runs, but instead routinely pats the half volley tamely back to the bowler, regardless of game condition, cannot forkane bat.

I told you that then and it remains the case now. Now you contorting all over the board bawling bout firing batting coach and assness so.

No coach anywhere could help that.

Hype is a determined and focused blocker. That’s it.

No offense to him. He certainly tries hard and I assume he puts in a lot of work. But that’s the reality.

In reply to imusic

I disagree

In reply to openning

So just that I get this straight....you officially back on the hype band wheelbarrow?


You givin powfence some stiff competition

In reply to imusic

Giving constructive criticism, has not stop me being a fan of the player.Only a few months ago, knowing his county team was going to declare, he increase his scoring rate, and went on to score a century, Years ago in Sri Lanka or bang, he did the same.
I am a fan of the young man, just want him kept far away from any leadership role, during his playing years.

In reply to tc1

I choose not to compare the eras because cricket has changed in form and content over the decades. I do agree that the eras gone by had special players but then that is a discourse about the structure of our cricket in the community and in the schools which is a whole other topic.

What I do know is that our age group cricketers at 13 and 15 and 17 are still producing above the level of England and South Africa to name two examples. Your example of Kemar Roach is sound. We also had a Corey Collymore, a Dwayne Burke, a Ryan Best all way ahead of the curb at 15 and 16.

I know that we compare with the developed nations because I’ve seen it first hand over the last 5 years even while our teams are ranked at the bottom of the pile. So for me the issue isn’t producing the next Boyce or Tony King or Sobers or even Kemar, it is still about how do we get a 17 year old in our region to a bona fide international class ready player by 22 and 23. That means opportunities and consistency is selection practices as much as proper training and programs.

In reply to mkcharles

Do you like or support the BCA having an Elite , 1st Divising and the promotion and demotion structure?

In reply to openning

That’s where this mess started...two divisions and that awful school’s league that is stifling development.

In the past we had a strong Division 1, Intermediate and second Division and school boys played at every level and hence developed organically.

I debut Second Division at 11 and Intermediate at 12 and Division 1 at 17. Each level was another finishing school. Now in recent times they play Elite and Division 1 at 15 and 16 having only dominated age group cricket.

They make a 1000 runs in Goddard School cricket in a season and we declare them the next Dessie or they swipe a few good innings in T20 and 50 over at Elite level and they get annointed even though they have never played a short ball or a swinging ball or a spinning ball and don’t even know how to hold their wrist behind the seam when bowling seam up.

The structure is all messed up. As for promotion and demotion there have been actual games of cricket that were FIXED in the last 3 years.

In reply to mkcharles

There are way too many talented former players that the local boards not taking advantage of. They practice in sterile conditions that dictate limited developmental skills. Nets are all good and well but who the hell get out in a net.

To watch fellas playing ball after ball directly to fielders and not even using their feet, wrist etc to beat field placing is just sickening! Playing the ball late etc lost arts to us these days. I see so many so called batsmen running past the ball or feet stuck in cement trying to reach balls.

It was really nice to see Brandon King using his feet in the crease. You wonder if these fellas ever see a video of Kahnai or Kelli batting to spin bowlers or pacers alike. I dare say the same King and Greaves are two of the young players who look to take on short balls and put them away in true WI spirit.

KB in stuck in the past and no one is going to bowl on his legs when they know how limited he is on short balls and outside the off stump. These are things that should be fixed by now!

In reply to seaegg99

KB is the poster boy for modern coaching in the West Indies. You said it in your introduction referencing the sterile conditions at practice.

That is the rolled out pitches at Kensington and the concrete strips at Combermere and Wanderers where you bat thousand of balls thrown at you by using the mechanical "arm" that every modern coach has. No wonder a short ball or a swinging ball or a spinning ball is foreign.

He has perfected what he has done and now that it is not working he is totally at a loss.The other problem is that the man himself does not accept that he has to retool because 100 centuries and every level is clouding his judgement and he refuses help even when offered.

As much as we suffer from the poor structuring of our cricket, we also have a deficiency in coaching methods of our elite performance managers.

In reply to imusic

but bro....

I still believe in KB...

YES...Opening also made some good observations..


Like any talent...one needs to know when to upgrade ones support team and staff...

not easy... cause the persons coaching should recognize weaknesses in the player and indeed themselves to solve or correct or bring new approaches to the player.

In other words...KB would / could still come back stronger... pun intended.

In reply to imusic

The reason our U 19 players doh develop quickly is as a result of lack of opportunities to get into the senior teams. The Board needs to have an emerging team in the 4 day competition as well.

As for the franchise system, the players relocate for the duration of the cycle and overseas players may feel disadvantaged having to meet some additional expenses than if they were home based. It also appears that some of the franchises tie up certain players so dat dey eh available to other franchises but hardly play them. A complete revamp is required.

In reply to Maispwi

It is a strange draft, where players that have been drafted and not selected.
Each team has 15 players Protected and draft players, yet a team like the Pride did not select Dominic Drakes, Tion Webster, Kenroy Williams, Justin Greaves or Keon Harding.
Here is the 2019 players draft.
Link Text

In reply to openning

this is what i am saying, how can we have a draft, where we have drafted our squad, and then select players who were not in the original draft, then send out drafted players on loan

In reply to mkcharles

for that cause i want my best coaches working with the young players, hard to bend a grown tree

In reply to hawk

I for one, is not a fan of Roland Butcher, he come across as being a politician than doing the right thing.

In reply to openning

I for one, is not a fan of Roland Butcher, he come across as being a politician than doing the right thing

That is one reason another is playing "Calypso Cricket" is foreign to those English trained coaches. WI players were able to improvise in all aspects of the game. Able to adapt. Most English players are good in only those conditions but out of place elsewhere. How can you coach a Sobers, Kahnai, Rowe etc with a straight jacket approach. Our past players were technically correct but would put a caribbean flavor to all aspects of the game. That mental approach have to be instilled in those coming because it seems lost on those who are here.

Here is how bad I think it is. I do not think any of the Bajans playing for WI other than Roach & maybe Holder could have even make a Bajan team from back in the day. George Brathwaite was a great batsman but couldn't even make the Bajan team. No one on the WI team is remotely close to him.

In reply to seaegg99

Did George Brathwaite played for Sheffield, Clippers or George Park?
The name rings a bell.
That was a different era
Playing county cricket, made our players better equip, and made them professionals.
Most of these pros came back to the system, and represent clubs and Island

In reply to hawk

exactly!!!

At the highest level the extra 10% is discipline, work ethic and strategy and only very minor modifications to techniques ever so often.

In reply to seaegg99

Well said ...

How do we get some influence into the right ears?

In reply to openning

Pretty sure he played for Banks with his brother Ellis if I remember correctly. He kind of was like Carlise Best. Great batsman but many others to pick from.

Bajans.....was having a discussion and Hendy Wallace came up. Did he ever play for Barbados at regional level?

Thanks

In reply to imusic

No.

Youth level only

In reply to imusic

That seem to be the highest level he played for Barbados
Link Text

In reply to imusic

He did not, but his game master told me he was an outstanding player who was ignore maybe because of his size.
Another outstanding player who I was told about was Derwin Thompson .

In reply to tc1

Derwin showed promise but wasn’t consistent enough...

In reply to powen001

Ok, good to know

In reply to mkcharles

Thank you

In reply to tc1

Thanks tc1. I heard he enjoyed quite a bit of success playing professionally in Ireland, but didn’t know if he ever played for Barbados

In reply to openning

Thanks bro

In reply to imusic

Watched Justin again in that Young Emerging team middle order. Just a rock solid performer. Bim bats the Youngman so low in the order his skill just does not show up. Hope they really don't take much longer to recognize this.

The Young Emerging team is the best cricket to watch right now really. Very good young players abound. We need game experienced coaches to sit with these youths and transfer experiences with them. We just cannot continue to expose under prepared players to international cricket. We are worked out way too easily with nothing to counter this with.

In reply to seaegg99

Well said sir... talent is never and will never be our problem.

There has however been no systematic transfer of knowledge since the 90s which largely explains the steady decline.

Talent is one thing know how is an entirely different matter.