In reply to LBW375
Yet Holder does not play in the team as an all-rounder. He plays as a specialist bowler who can bat. A proper all-rounder in a test team gives his team the luxury of selecting a fifth bowler. Much like what Stokes does for England, Kallis did for SA and Flintoff did for Eng. WI is playing a bowler short despite the heavy work load. WI is not playing to take 20 wickets. Holder needs to step up to his talent and bat higher and allow the team to play that extra bowler.
In reply to b4u8me2
Or you could say he allows the team to play an extra batsman. What do you think the team struggles more with, getting 20 wickets or scoring 400 runs?
In reply to choor
You can only win a game by talking 20 wickets. He also does not allow for an extra batsman as he does not play as a batsman. He plays as a strike bowler. So what you get is the regular test line up - 6 batsmen, a wicket keeper and 4 bowlers. The wicket keeper is also expected to be able to bat so that's 7 batsmen already. If Holder considers himself the 8th batsman in the team then that's way too many batsmen and way too little bowlers to take 20 wickets.
In reply to b4u8me2
In one post you say the following
In reply to birdseye
Jason has generally done well- as he should for the unfettered opportunity he has been given with CWI and the West Indies Cricket Board.
When we judge him it must be seen in the following context:
1. Unlike other players he was chosen and told he will be given a long run- no fear of being dropped, so he did not have this pressure every time he bowls or bat.
2. Well Natured by administration and coaching set up- Unlike other players who faced stern and quick judgement
3. Not much was expected of him: He was supported to simply learn and grow and in that process, he was not held responsible or accountable for the team's performance.
4. Media support- Unlike other international captains- CRICINFO the world's most popular cricket site, has been gracious on him when juxtaposed against other int. cappos.
The question is this- Is Jason a 4th seamer who is a handy # 8 batter or a genuine all-rounder?
For me, Jason is an enterprising player, sincere and a hard worker who has the potential to become a good allrounder and given the support he has- I want to see him accelerate his performance so he can take a place in the genuine all rounder's chair.
In reply to b4u8me2
A bowling average below 30 and a batting average above 30 make him an allrounder. He commands a place in the top 4 bowlers in this side, and his batting record is better than many in the top 6. Whether he bats 6 or 7 is valid, but the fact is he gives the option of playing 6 batsman in addition to himself or 4 bowlers in addition to himself. Which goes back to my first question, do Windies have trouble taking 20 wickets or scoring runs? It is more the latter, so 6 batsmen, wicket keeper and all rounder makes more sense. The fact that the runs have not come is because the 6 batsmen have not been good enough. If Holder bats 6 and you replace with a batsman with a bowler, you expect to score less runs.
As I've mentioned before Holder's bowling is more important than to the team than his batting.
He is a world class bowler and a decent batsman.
In reply to b4u8me2
I have been advocating for that for sometime now. West Indies will only win consistently when Holder bats at 6 or 7.
The comparison of Holder with Stokes must be done within the context of their team's strengths.
Stokes is about the 5th bowler after Anderson Broad Archer and Woakes.
Holder is number 3 after Gabriel and Roach. Wi simply doesn't have the depth of reserves for Holder to play purely as a batsman...nor do they have batting reserves for him to play purely as a batsman.
In reply to FuzzyWuzzy
In reply to FuzzyWuzzy
He still can bat at 5 or 6.
The batting is too fragile for him not to bat higher.
In reply to b4u8me2
To do that he has to be able to rely on his other batsmen as well. The bowling is not the problem.
In reply to openning
In that event will you then play an extra bowler or bat a specialist batsman at 7 or 8?
In reply to FuzzyWuzzy
I'll play any, Jason has the talent to be a solid batsman and bowler.
I've said he should play the role of Stokes or Angelo Mathews with this team.
He is batting too low
Again Jason is a world class bowler, we cannot sacrifice him being a world class bowler to be a decent batsman.
In reply to openning
Holder is the #3 Test bowler in the world, you guys are ignoring or undervaluing that fact.
In reply to Andy99
You are making nuff sense. These guys just thirsty for a hero and thrashing about looking for one.
In reply to Andy99
You have not been following the rebirth of Matthews the last last couple of years, you ran for the stats, and not what he brings now to the Sri Lanka team.
He is bowling and batting like a starving cricketer.
His role as an all-rounder caught my eyes in this series, knowing that his earlier performance was so so.
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In reply to openning
Why is dere a debate about Holder's status as a genuine allrounder?
Holder can make dis team as a batsman or a bowler. De man has a double against a decent English attack. We shud be embracing his batting abilities
In reply to Emir
In reply to Maispwi
In reply to birdseye
Holder is first a bowler who can bat. If the top six were any good we would never know how good a batsman Holder is.
In reply to FuzzyWuzzy
In reply to Andy99
Why are you fixated on Matthews and not Stokes, I listed two all-rounders, that he should follow.
He was the best all-rounder before this series, his counter part just took move into #1.
Jason is batting low in this batting line up and should be at 5 or 6.
In reply to FuzzyWuzzy
the last decent genuine test allrounder we had was Gary Sobers. Heavy is the man who wears the crown, maybe he scared to put it on.
TriniD called Holder a SmALLrounder because of his batting record.
Holder is a very good bowler. He can bat enough to be called an Allrounder, but his batting needs to be taken tuh de next level, which is why TriniD coined de term "SmALLrounder".
Having said all dat, anyone who can score a Test double century against a very good bowling attack on a wicket that produced a victory can bat more dan, just ah bit.
So TriniD is convinced dat Holder can bat better dan his record. He gets out too many times tuh nothing balls or decent balls.
He is better dan dat.
TriniD believes dat Holder works more on his bowling dan his batting. He needs tuh focus on his batting more and he can be great.
There is still time fuh dat.
Jack Kallis???
In reply to openning
