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I said it. Clive Lloyd was no Caribbean visionary. He was a man who was very good at controlling the forces and persons who came into his team. This hero worship that most West Indian countries like to engage in has set unreasonable expectations of captains who cannot realistically adopt Lloyd's methods of governance. Reality. Its just like the mythologies surrounding Singapore's success. Realistically, no one can adopt their methods in any part of the world in this time.....or even in 60s and 70s when it took place

In reply to Jumpstart

According to my friend Sudden,the only Caribbean visionaries he knows of are Dipper Barrow and Dinanath Ramnarine.

In reply to Dukes

I never mentioned the Dipper

In reply to Dukes

And you are a perfect example of the starry eyed hero worshippers who are so destructive

In reply to Jumpstart

Man shut yuh skunt please

In reply to sudden

Move away patnas.......this thread is for those who at least have a rudimentary understanding of language and arithmatic.

In reply to Jumpstart

That is rich with a skunt like you starting it

In reply to sudden

Says the person who has spent the last 5 months accusing me of being dinnas and persecuting remember the name

In reply to Jumpstart

In my view, like Worrell, Lioyd was indeed a visionary. They both realised the more inclusive West Indies cricket was the stronger our cricket would be.

In reply to Jumpstart

I have never accused you

In reply to Fivestar

What does that mean?

In reply to Fivestar

Finally somebody commented on the topic. That could also be true. But both Worrell and Lloyd were very conservative by nature. Worrell wanted his players to be the very best examples of British West Indians. Lloyd was also very British in his outlook. Our first post colonial captain was Viv.

For example. Three or four WI players have called Lloyd's captaincy great but suffocating in its influence. I believe Gordon Greenidge had an issue like this in 1981

In reply to Jumpstart

What your point bro. I don't get it.

Yeah yeah I am opening myself to your abuse

In reply to Jumpstart

Commenting and saying jack Shoite is worse than not commenting

In reply to InHindsight

Nah not abusing bro. What im saying is that the mythologies surrounding Lloyd have played their part in keeping back the team.

For example. In Fire in Babylon, the impression given is that Lloyd went looking around the Caribbean looking for pacers.....when Andy Roberts said that the determination after the India match at QPO was to play their best players no matter what the current practive was-in that case, including a spinner at all cost.

In reply to Jumpstart

Pardna you aren’t making any sense at all

In reply to sudden

You doh have a bottle to go and drink

In reply to Jumpstart

Wish I had. The Shoite you spewing would drive a monk to drink

In reply to Jumpstart

Do you have any idea as to how Patrick Patterson started playing for Lancashire and Tasmania?
If not I suggest you find out!!!!!

In reply to sudden

I wish you had your bottle too. And your pacifier. Babies usually behave quite badly without it.

In reply to sudden

It means before Worrell and Lloyd became captains certain parts of the Caribbean were basically excluded from West Indies cricket.

Many felt players from the Leeward and Windward Islands weren't good enough to play for the West Indies.

Worrell was a visionary because he correctly predicted players from the Leewards and Windwards would make a significant contribution to West Indies cricket.

It is important to note when Worrell made the statement there was not a single player from the Leewards or Windwards on the West Indies team.

Clive Lloyd was a visionary in that he was the first West Indies captain to have multiple players from the Leewards and Windwards play with him.

So yes, Lloyd and Worrell were both visionary. They were also our two greatest captains.

In reply to Dukes

Patrick Patterson did not tell an Indian journalist that Lancs was one of the worst experiences of his life?

Link Text

In reply to Fivestar

Wasn't that inevitable? Richards and Roberts would have broken into the side even if the combined islands were still around

In reply to Fivestar

How does that make Lloyd a visionary? He was just the captain and players from those places were the best in the WI and selected to the team.

Are you saying Lloyd somehow got them selected or trained up to become the best players in the West Indies?

It is the visionary part I don’t understand? Unless my idea of visionary is different than yours?

As to Worrell. I don’t know about visionary but it is a well known fact that Worrell was anti discriminatory. He disliked the fact that a black couldn’t be appointed WI cappo as much as he didn’t like that the windwards and leeward players were given a hard deal when it came to exposure and selection

In reply to sudden

This is what i like....robust debate

In reply to Jumpstart

Any time you agree with me, it causes me to pause

In reply to Sudden

My point is Lloyd was the first captain to welcome players from the islands with open arms.

Do you remember when Lloyd put an inconsistent Viv Richards to start batting at number three for West Indies?

It caused huge controversy through out the Caribbean. Lloyd's critics said Rowe and Kallicharran were better number three batsmen than "the small island upstart".

Lloyd ignored the naysayers and stuck to his guns and Richards went from inconsistent to great almost overnight.

Being a visionary is the ability to see things other people can't see.

In reply to Fivestar

As i said....the vast majority of leeward islands players would have made the team regardless. Viv, Andy and Curtly would have been WI stars even if the combined islands were still together

In reply to Jumpstart

U R a piece of work.

Having seen the interview of Patrick Patterson and listening to Carl Hooper's interview which I posted on this webpage a few weeks ago we all understand that Patrick Patterson is not a well person and has not been so for quite some time.It is therefore quite unfortunate that despite you knowing these facts you seek to use Patterson's faulty memory and perceptions to essentially invent a narrative that does not address how Patterson ended up playing FIRST CLASS CRICKET for LANCASHIRE AND TASMANIA after being dropped by Jamaica after 2 first class matches.
Patterson made his first class debut in the 1983 regional tournament against the Leewards and then played a match against the Touring Indians.In 1984 he did not play any first class matches in the West Indies and played a solitary match for Lancashire in 1984 English County season where he failed to take any wickets.In 1984-85 he got a contract to play a full season for Tasmania.You do not tell us how he got that contract or who helped him get it so we will assume it just happened out of thin air.In 1985 Patterson played a full season in English County cricket for Lancashire and based on his performances then he was an automatic choice for Jamaica in the 1986 regional season.In his first match against Guyana he bowled them out for 41.In the next match against the Leewards he bowled them out for 77 and the rest is history.I know exactly how Patterson ended up at Lancashire and how he got that contract with Tasmania.
I find it disgusting that you would seek to use Patrick Patterson's illness to impugn, diminish and distort Lloyd's role in getting him into playing first class cricket after his island had dropped him after 2 matches.

I have always said Clive Lloyd is a mediocre leader who was lucky to have lead a talented bunch of cricketers in an era when most other teams didn't take cricket seriously.
Lloyd tried many other roles and each of those ended in humiliating failures..

In reply to Khaga

That one takes the cake!!!!!!!

Your credibility has been lost FOREVER.

In reply to Dukes

Dont study that moron. The 70s to 90s was the golden age of cricket. Some countries missed out which is what khags is probably upset about.

In reply to Khaga

A mediocre leader would not have been able to manage the egos of a talented bunch of cricketers.

In reply to Khaga

Yuh mean like awarding dat game to Sri Lanka when the eden garden crowd bun down de stadium............why didn't he let the game continue among bottles, molotov cocktails.......im sure nobody would have gotten hurt

Lloyd was the manager of the team captained by Brian Lara that was beaten black and blue in South Africa in 1998..

In reply to Fivestar

They didn't have choices..

In reply to Dukes

For someone who promotes Barry Richards (all of 4 tests) over Sunil Gavaskar, the talk about credibility is a tad rich,isn't it?

In reply to Khaga

You're right about that......and sided with Pat Rousseau when pat disregarded a payment agreement promised earlier which messed up the entire tour............which goes back to the title of my post.

In reply to Jumpstart

Lloyd is a soup drinker..

In reply to Dukes

So are you saying Patterson's recollections are the figment of an unquiet mind? Because he remembered some of his bowling performances in his career correctly.

In reply to Khaga

"""Lloyd is a soup drinker.."""

Who is'nt...????.unless you are born into a life of privelege...

My father lent his car for LLoyd's use upon his return to Guyana from a tour...was he drinking soup or asked for a favor from someone???

Ask LLoydie who had an impact on moulding him.???...
an Indian..Farouk Engineer..best of pals in Lancashire...Farouk had to stop at every pub on their way home from a game..and poor LLoyd had to sleep in car at every stop..HILARIOUS..
Fellas ..love or hate yester year players but they all have a story to tell.

in the pantheon of WI cricket captains Lloyd is right up there. perhaps second to Frank Worrell.

it is the visionary part as outlined by Fivestar with which i dont agree.

i take particular exception to the imputations of the Shiter Khaga

I aint go no time to read through all this thread but seeing Michael Holding as a character out of cricket career called by his co commentators 'stubborn'
Meeting the arrogant and unfriendly Viv Richards, getting a disdained snub by Colin Croft in a public gathering, knowing of Gordon Greenidge's internal demons and to put on that Andy Roberts blunt undiplomatic manner...
Now how did the Big Cat get good cream out of all those above?

In reply to Raggs

Well he was much older than them to begin with. I'm not sure how controllable croft was but i think his reactions are a direct result of the reactions to the rebel tour and the general vitriol, much of it faux and overblown, that came down on the players, without an ounce of understanding for their life commitments. Also clive through his example, meaning his comportment and the way he carried on his life engendered respect. As far as I'm aware, viv's ultra aggression n the field started when he was captain. And there is a reason for that. The stress levels of already being captain were compounded by the fact that the captaincy argument was being fought by the boards. Peter Short and the Bajans wanted Maco as captain(even though viv was being groomed for the role for years and Maco had only nailed down a place on the side in 1982, when Croft went to SA. Not that i am aware that maco and viv knew these things(and i don't think it affected their relationship) but Simon Lister wrote about it in the Fire in Babylon book. Note this is the book, not the propaganda film. It went to a vote and i think viv won by one vote. Viv always knew there was a target on his back as captain.

In reply to Jumpstart

Beware of the man of one book

In reply to sudden

Well he also wrote Super Cat, Clive's official autiobiography so i assume he must have some pedigree

In reply to Jumpstart

I find the above very hard to believe.

Viv seemed far more concerned that the snobs on the Board would prefer Larry Gomes to him rather than Maco. Hard to imagine Maco being pushed as captain when he was behind both openers as well as Garner in the Barbados team.I know that everybody felt that Maco had a superior cricket brain.
Now here is 1 thing that would make all trinis doubt his cricket brain.He said on the 1996-97 tour of Australia that Hooper could bat better than Lara but Hooper lacked the killer instinct that Lara had.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

In reply to Dukes

I have never heard anybody mention Larry as a potential captaincy choice. And furthermore, you present no evidence to prove your point or to disprove mines, which is an account recorded by a person who is mot west indian or has sn interests in the petty politics that you seemed to be addicted to.

Secondly, all Trinidadians who saw hooper would tell you the most talented batsman to come out of the WI was Carl Hooper

This is a Trinidadian's words about Carl

Link Text


We dont engage in petty politics. We insult cricketers of inferior quality who are the beneficiaries of CWI bias( Narendra Chandrika, Leon Johnson, Remember the Name, Ashley Nurse etc)but we always acknowledge quality.

In reply to Jumpstart

The best thing to happen to Ambrose was he got dropped early in his career. They felt he wasn't giving one hundred percent. When he came back he travelled a path to greatness.

Maybe they should have dropped Hooper early in his career. When he came back he might have batted the way he did when he was captain. He too may have embarked on a path to greatness.

In reply to Fivestar

Carl Hooper is the most talented batsman to ever come out of the WI. Do you realize that Hooper never had a bogeyman like Lillee was to Viv and Mcgrath was to Lara? And on their path to greatnes, both would have to overcome them. Man, I saw a hundred of Carl's on youtube and he was beating Wasim Akram like a teacher disciplining an errant school child. Waz tried pitching it up and Hoops was driving him. He tried bouncing him and hooper hooked him for six. If Hooper had been consistent in the 90s, WI would have still been either #1 or at least #2 in the world

In reply to Jumpstart

i know of no one person, entity or country that is not , has not and will not engage in politics petty or otherwise.

if Titland and Tits do not fit this bill then good for them.

however i seem to remember when Tit Ken Gordon as President of the now CWI installed Tit Lara in one of his iterations as cappo.

maybe that was not politics and maybe it was not petty - hard to tell tho.

if that doesnt work, how about when Lara penciled in crack finder Dillon in the starting 11?

In reply to sudden

Who was going to captain after Tiger resigned? Both Gayle and Sarwan did not want the responsibility heading into a home CWC year. And I'm sure you weren't complaining about Lara's captaincy on the way to the 2006 ICC champions trophy final.

People(other islanders) accuse lara of insularity here( versus SA in 2003/2004). Nobody accuses Viv, the head of selectors of it. This is despite the fact that Adam Sanford had taken up playing for the Leeward Islands after moving to Antigua the year before(2002).Adam Sanfords' best innings figures are 4/132. Sanford had been totally ineffective the entire tour. Geoff Boycott, one of the comentators for the tour said Sanford was too slow to even dismiss his own(Boycott's) own mother. Lara wanted more pace in the side and Dillon had pace, despite being inconsistent and expressed those views to viv. Its viv who in his lifelong interest of pushing foward Leeward island players, whether they're good or not( Keith Atherton for example made his debut in 1988 and only scored his first hundred after viv retired) was the root of that schism. And like a little girl, went to the media and expressed private info that should be kept in a selector's room

In reply to Jumpstart

it is illustrative to see that you arent now arguing that Tits arent above petty politics but in that regard they are just like everyone else and just as insular.

thanks for clearing that up.

In reply to sudden

I didn't say that. I mentioned two references that you mentioned which are not examples of insularity. Because Ken Gordon was from TT(and respected across the region as a medi pioneer) that meant that putting lara as captain was automatically insularity. Your world must be a terribly convoluted place

In reply to Jumpstart

No reasonable person will argue Carl Hooper didn't have talent. The question is did we get the most he had to offer from that talent.

We can never seem to get the best out of our players. Until we solve that riddle we can never be number one again in Test cricket.

Lloyd's team wasn't just great because they were talented. They were great because they performed.

In reply to Fivestar

Is that a question? A guy who should have averaged 80 averaging 36?

In reply to Jumpstart

A very valid question. If a guy should average 80 but can only average 36 don't you see that as a problem?

ok so you are going back to your original argument that Tits are above petty politics.

i suppose i should have asked to explain the term ,"petty politics" but since we have gotten this far it makes no sense at this stage since we seem to have settled on some meaning even tho not explained explicitly

did Bassarath not want Bravo selected as test vice cappo even going so far as to declare that he, "would support Bravo as vice captain of the West Inides team"

In reply to sudden
Tits not insular and not into petty politics??? All you need to do to dispel that myth is listen to that Tit radio show hosted by some guy named Andre. Especially when Leatherface was CWI President.

In reply to Fivestar

It is.....hooper just did not have the mind. Look at lara. By Lara's standards, SA 1998 was a disaster even though he scored 3 very good half centuries which could have easily been converted into three 100s had his head been in the game. But look at what lara did versus the best team in the world a month after.......one of the hreatesy feats in the history of batsmanship. A series worth of career defining performances. Hooper was more talented than lara. Mind was the difference

In reply to Walco

lord...you jumped the gun man.

i was going to see how this developed before i got to that

In reply to Walco

Just because aandre errol baptiste used to call out Remember the name and Ashley Nurse on his show every week for not deserving of places on any WI team, does not mean he's insular. Its the truth....they did not deserve to play for any WI team. That is not news

In reply to Jumpstart

is that the reason?

wuh loss muh belly

In reply to Jumpstart

have you never listened to Andre and hear him pushing for Tits to be on the WI team or see him protesting for Tits to be selected?

In reply to sudden

I listen and watch him all the time. Have you ever listened to Mason's shameless defense of BCA shenanigans. Two weeks ago, during the height of the hope sanasi nonsense, he was asking Swallow why dowrich not in de side and what is the nature of his absense. Swallow had to shut him down for trying to pry into a private matter between the player and the board. Even worse is Line and Length.

In reply to Jumpstart

you will get no argument from me there. i have already acknowledged there is no country, person or entity that is above petty politics or insularity except as you have argued stoutly, Titland.

so let me re restate-

have you never listened to Andre and hear him pushing for Tits to be on the WI team or see him protesting for Tits to be selected?

In reply to sudden

Yes...does not mean its insularity. If Andre had called for bravo and pollard to be included in the 2019 CWC team in place of Carlos Brathwaite and Ashley Nurse, both of whom had terrible tournaments( minus brathwaite's 100 versus NZ) and terrible records coming into the tournament, and also found themselves out of the team within a month's time, I would not have called it insularity. For the simple reason you are dealing with two much better players who enhance the teams they play for

In reply to Jumpstart
I stopped listening to Andre before Carlos and Ashley started playing for the West Indies. So I was not aware of his rantings about them. But Andre’s rank insularity preceded Carlos and Ashley. And a good number of his listeners who called in to the show were no better than him.

In reply to sudden
My sincere apology

In reply to Jumpstart
So you are saying that Bravo and Pollard (two players who failed miserably during the Super50 that preceded the World Cup), should’ve been selected ahead of Brathwaite and Nurse who performed during the same Super50? I could buy such an argument if Pollard and Bravo have been playing ODIs for the West Indies on a consistent basis prior to the Super50 and just had a bad tournament. But we both know that was not the case.

In reply to Walco

Firstly, bravo and pollard had talks with cameron to end the impasse before the Super 50. And we both know they were exiled for non cricketing reasons following the india debacle. Cameron himself said the talks were fruitful. Then the CWI selectors, announce the team to go to india for odis in the middle if the first round of matches, which means that the team was not being selected on the basis of the super 50. That tour india tour would have been the last tournament they would have had the chance to audition for CWC places because thet were not being oicked for ODIs since the india incident, despite cameron saying otherwise. Adittionally, look at Nurse's and brathwaites stats. Nurse has a batting average of 19 and a bowling average of 45. Carlos has a bowling average of 41 and a batting average of 16. Essentially they picked club level players in favor of players with an international profile......and its a pattern that continued until they kicked cameron out

In reply to Jumpstart

You are answering questions I did not ask. I asked about Andre calling and protesting for Tit players to be selected not Bravo and Pollard or not just them.

And Walco is indeed correct. the callers were rabidly insular. and you never addressed my question about Bassarath calling for Bravo to be made vice captain

In reply to Jumpstart
Correction: Pollard played for WI after the India debacle and was dropped for poor performance. So I don't know how you can say that he was exiled. Bravo yes, but not Polly.

Also, as I recall the ODI team that toured India played well while losing that series 2-1 with one tied match. In our sole win during that India series, Nurse took 2 for 43 with the ball, made 40 runs off 22 balls and was named Player of the Match. In the tied match Nurse took 2 for 46 and was our best bowler.

During the ODI series against England that preceded the WC, Brathwaite took 2 for 17 in one match; 2 for 69 in the match when England made 418 (Nurse was the only WI bowler with an better economy rate) and scored 50 off 32 balls as WI made 389 runs chasing 418.

You dismissively refer to Brathwaite's ton during the WC but I doubt you would similarly dismiss Pooran's ton--only two WI players scored centuries during that WC btw.

You posted the career stats for Bravo and Pollard, but not their 2018 Super50 stats. Maybe you should. Carlos was not picked for the India tour either (just like Bravo and Polly), but he captained CCC to a Super50 championship while scoring 30 off 25 and taking 3 for 43 in the final against Guyana. In the semifinal victory against Trinidad, Carlos made 29 off 22 balls and took 1 for 19 dismissing Big Bravo. In that same match Bravo made 27 off 36 balls and Polly made 16 off 30 balls. Neither Bravo nor Polly took a wicket in that match. Brathwaite also took 3 for 12 against Barbados, 1 for 4 against Jamaica off 3 overs, and 1 for 9 against Leewards off 5 overs.

Polly made 69 runs in 7 matches at an average of 9.85 runs while accumulating 3 ducks. Bravo made 96 runs in 6 matches at an average of 19.20. In the bowling department Bravo took 7 wickets in 6 matches at an average of 24.71. Polly bowled only 8.2 overs the entire tournament but took 3 wickets at an average of 11. Brathwaite took 13 wickets in 9 matches at an average of 15.15. He also made 212 runs in 9 matches with an average of 53 and a strike rate of 106.

Simply put, the notion that Carlos and Nurse did not deserve their WC picks is rooted in bias and insularity. Perhaps other players could justifiably have been chosen instead of those two because team selection is an art (not a science), but Carlos and Nurse earned their WC spots.

In reply to Walco

Dude........to prove you're talking bollucks, Jonathan Carter was the top scorer in the Super 50 and he was on the reserves, Nurse is not even in the top ten wicket takers for that tournament but yet still was in the squads for India, England and the World Cup......where he drops catches and is beaten by #7s and 8s.

In reply to Jumpstart

Andre Errol Baptiste IS insular. And a skunt of the highest order.

In reply to Jumpstart
Nurse missed a good part of that Super50 because he was in India helping West Indies secure a win and tie during that series.

Bravo and Polly played against the same substandard Super50 competition as Carter and Brathwaite. By your logic, they should have scored more runs and taken more wickets than Carter and Brathwaite. Surely you would agree that Bravo’s and Polly’s performances were not enough to force the selectors to include them in the World Cup squad.

In reply to Walco



So by virtue of making 40 runs in one match and 2 wickets, this guaranteed selection for an emtire england tour and the CWC over battle hardened IPL stars? . Thank god those days are over and the two of them and all the other failures who got in by virtue of their boards being cameron supporters will never return

In reply to Jumpstart
What did your battle hardened IPL stars do during the 2018/19 Super50 to merit selection to the World Cup squad after not playing 50-over cricket for years? Hopefully you will answer this question in your response.

In reply to sudden

Dont get it....why the level of personal abuse on this board....same damn thing in the back room....how old are you....time to grow up.....go on give me a blast of your childish behaviour so I can have a bellylaugh for the day little boy.

In reply to Walco

yuh know what we do........we beat de caribbean like snakes this year.....an unbeaten run......3/4 of the games weren't even competitive

In reply to Jumpstart
Ok I will take your non-answer as an admission that your hardened IPL stars did nothing during the Super50 to merit selection in the WC squad.

In reply to Walco

which is why the side won 2 out of 9 matches

In reply to Jumpstart
Man you love being wrong and strong

In reply to Walco

didn't they win 2 out of 9 games

In reply to Jumpstart
Answer my question first and then I will respond to yours.

In reply to Walco

don't worry....i don't need too.

In reply to Jumpstart

Of course you don't need to. Thats why I said this above: