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Let us see how he goes.This chap is a very fast learner.

In reply to Dukes

You've thrown Hetty under the bus already?

In reply to Dukes

Hahahahahahahahahaha

In reply to Halliwell

In reply to SnoopDog

Not at all.Both players need to show what they bring to the table in terms of leadership skills.

Allyuh too binary in allyuh thinking.

In reply to Dukes

Any evidence, doc, of leadership skill or capacity?

In reply to Dukes

Only time will tell what will happen. Being the captain of the West Indies is a massive job. Pollard and Pooran showed a lot of promise when they started. However, it seems like their performances suffered along the way. A good captain leads from the front. This is why Sammy used wisdom and let the better players shine, while he used his man management skills to get the best out of the team.

In reply to Barry

Not yet.
Patience is virtue

In reply to Windiesfan78

Lololololololilolol!!

Baghdad Bob coulda use Allyuh so as script writers yes

In reply to Dukes

Maaan if I had access to archives like discourtesy I wudda pull so much threads

Kyle did say he was a born leader...even when he is not cappo

In reply to Dukes

Dukes...Kyle does not practice Guile.

Straight forward through and through...

I too am watching him go from strength to strength.

Well said Kyle

In reply to Dukes

Seems I've struck a rather sensitive nerve here.

Perhaps a turkey sandwich may help old boy.

In reply to powen001

With that attitude, one is likely to get players to give their all for you since they will tend to trust you.

In reply to SnoopDog

Sorry bro, have been vegetarian for more than a decade!!!!

In reply to powen001

Oh Lord. Doh tell Meh you praying for he like how you pray for Ryan Hinds and Chase

In reply to imusic

He just needs to back himself

In reply to Dukes

Using PNC math, that's only been like a year or so. Time to get back on that turkey Bro.

In reply to Windiesfan78

yuh know brian lara average is 58 when leading the west indies....and his sides had moderate successes, most of which he single handedly engineered(he had walsh and ambrose for two years as cappo before they retired as well) and devastating failures(quite a few of which he scored hundreds and double hundreds in and still ended up on the losing side). thank god he had an individualistic streak because his average would have gone in the same direction as the team. WI captaincy is a poisoned chalice. Managing the personalities and some very insular administrators is a fate i wish on not even my dog


are you saying that the captain should be the worst player on the team?

In reply to SnoopDog

October 2010 I started on my journey.Have not had any beef, chicken,pork or fish since then.weight down from 186 to 171.Cholesterol good.Trying to make it to age 80 so working hard to do like the BEE GEES

In reply to Jumpstart

Being captain of the West Indies is difficult but not impossible as you seem to be making out.
What is required is a smart, honest,hard working captain, who the players can trust.

In reply to imusic

Well it's true ain't it . Sammy taught Pollard a lesson or two about winning. A champion not only in cricket, but in character.

In reply to Dukes

well that must mean lara and gale are the only smart cappos since 95. They are the only ones with major achievements in the test arena. Lara beating SL(with Vaas and Murali) and drawing a series with the world's best team in Australia. I don't count the wisden trophy win in 98 because that england side was awful. Gayle with our first Wisden trophy win in 11 years against a very good england team (containing Harmison, Flintoff, Anderson, Sidebottom, Swann and Panesar; not to mention pietersen, strauss, cook, prior etc) and our best showing in Australia since 97, a series we would have won if not for poor umpiring. Sammy beat a weak and divided NZ team that was barely competitive and holder beat a weak English side in 2019. Sammy won with a great side and the t20 template pioneered by Daren Ganga's TT red force....he even took using the leggie in the powerplay from ganga, not to mention the sacrificing singles at the table of big hits.....straight out of Trinidad's CLT20 2009 run that caught every team in the competition by surprise.

The reason Dukes that i don't respect Sammy as captain is that he was willing to captain a team purged of its best players, a team he wasn't even close to making(aside from the 3rd string 2009 team captained by pretty boy floyd) and only complained when cameron's excesses personally affected him. It screams selfishness and selfish ambition and that could never be the hallmarks of a good leader in anything, except probably at Apple. Steve Jobs was the same way but he was very successful.

In reply to imusic

Windiesfan78 / WIfan26 would shine Sammy boots if the clapper permits

Cricket is the only team sport which use a captain as the on play manager, any west indies captain having an unskilled technical manager like Phil and his cohorts will fail.
The role is obsolete, I have been saying it for almost 4 years.

In reply to openning

I can vouch for you on this

In reply to openning

Hoss…….you realize Clive led the WI to being the best team in the world without a manager right? Are you going to blame Phil for not one WI batsman averaging over 40?

In reply to Jumpstart

West Indies teams from the git go had managers. Clive Lloyd's world beaters were no exception.

In reply to Jumpstart

How did Sammy get into this discussion about captaincy?
Did someone suggest that he should be made captain?
I am aware that I said that he should be the Coach instead of Simmons.The Coach requires a different skill set than the captaincy.

In any event let us get back to captaincy of the West Indies.It seems to me that the Test captaincy is settled and we are looking at the white ball captaincy.

The incumbent Nicholas Pooran has had a rough year with significant loss of personal form in the ODI's and inconsistency in the T 20's.We are therefore looking at possible alternatives in case things continue to go south with Pooran. It seems to me that those to be considered are Rovman Powell, Shimron Hetmyer and Kyle Mayers.All of them have their positives and negatives and it would be prudent to watch these three over the rest of the CPL and reappraise the situation after the World Cup.It is a pity that TKR did not appoint Pooran as captain for CPL 2022.

In reply to Jumpstart

Lara was one of the best batters the world has ever seen. Watching him destroy bowling attacks was a joy to watch. His records still stand to this day. Simply put, he was a batting genius. He had to pull a team on the decline over the line on several occasions. He also was the captain of the team that won the ICC Champions Trophy. However, despite Lara's talent, he was not popular with his team mates. Perhaps it was jealousy or just the fact that he was arrogant. Either way, I appreciate his achievements and his commitment to West Indies cricket.
As for Mr. Sammy, he has punched well above his weight and is a champion. Say what you like about him but he is a two time t20 World Cup winning captain. Take some time to think about it. DS doesn't need your affirmation.

In reply to Castled

Make yourself useful and go shine the two t20 World Cup trophies Sammy won yuh weirdo.

In reply to Windiesfan78

What is this shit called character if it is without merit or substance- what is this game of thrones?

In reply to Barry



Ill be following your posts.

you are quite entertaining

In reply to powen001

Are you socafighter

In reply to Halliwell



dat ent Sarge?

I got lost in the many movements...I cant even remember his original handle

In reply to powen001

Sarge like he fall down the escarpment
Hope allyuh happy now

In reply to Barry

Cheese on breaders, was that necessary, how do I respond to that!

In reply to Windiesfan78

you cant!!

THats why he cracks me up !!

In reply to powen001

He was speaking to you- I have one handle— we’re you slow in school?

In reply to Windiesfan78

Words escape you like common sense, no?

How much shitmeyer make?

In reply to Barry



Far from but its ok...

BARRY

In reply to Barry

more than PooNoRuns last score!

In reply to Windiesfan78

I doubt you could call Sammy punching above his weight when he captained sides containing gayle, the greatest t20 of all time, pollard(the man with the 2nd most amount of sixes, DJ Bravo, t20 crickets leading wicket taker, narine, samuels, Rampaul, Simmons, Dre Rus, Badree etc. He simply had the best players on offer in the format. And captaining the team would not have been that hard because all of these guys were the best of friends prior to the world cups, starting with Gayle and DJ.

In reply to Castled


You do realize that Walcott, Sir Wes Hall and Lance Gibbs, the managers during the 80s, were not managers in the footballing sense as how you’re describing it. The first coaching manager was Bob Simpson, who came along when Allan Border wished to get his team better as the basics of the game in the late 80s

[b

Well said!

In reply to Dukes

I agree with you. Pooran’s personal form has deserted him and I remember satying on this site that his form wasn’t exactly great before the captaincy and I didn’t know how the pressure would affect his batting. Obviously it has had a detrimental effect, despite a few class innings. But I’m also saying you can’t expect him to perform when the entire team is falling cheap around him. When the WI started losing consistently after Walsh and Ambrose retired, Lara wasn’t even captain, just the man expected to score most of the runs and his average dipped below 50 in 2001. Look at a foreign example. Angelo Matthews at one times averaged over 50 in tests. With SL’s decline as a test nation, his form suffered and he averages 45, which is still very good but it’s a big decrease

Kyle is a proven leader at club level and all his teams from junior level has won titles. He leads from the front and always puts his team first, only ever interested in WINNING. All his players will run through the proverbial wall for Dappa.

Why is he only in the mix now? It’s the same reason why he was not in the mix before as a player in deference to every other less talented player from Carlos, to Carter, to Stoute, to Nurse, to Greaves, to Primus and the list goes on. Simply a victim of the cliques in BIM cricket.

Everything happens in its time and we who know will silently watch on. He always said , “my time will come and I will be ready”.

This guy is as honest as the day is long; wonderfully genuine; very accessible especially to the juniors at his club; loves his cricket; and most of all, understands the rich heritage of West Indies cricket and what it means to the fans.

In reply to mkcharles

Lead your club, lead the waste indies?

In reply to mkcharles

You clearly IZ a BAJAN.

sadly the Politics just as igrunt if not worse in too many clubs in Bim than the party politics

You heard how Holders Dad took him to Empire...had a horrible time..

His mother took him to Wanderers...he blossomed and bloomed.

yuh want me to tell yuh that this STILL happens...and ill be blunt...

the old colonials want to win- while the former ...owned ppl...tend to behave like crabs in a barrel.

ah lie?

In reply to Barry

My club boss? I ain’t a member of no club, but I watch cricket in every club in BIM and thankfully we still a free society and I can go any where. I am lucky enough to have played cricket in a time where I still have a few friends who tolerate me.

No doubt I like the lad, but just calling what I see and saying what I know having spoken with the lad too.

Captaining a franchise and captaining the West Indies are two different kettle of fish. To be a WiNdies skipper you need to be chosen, not called. Dappa will need a whip, a lobbyist, a chief strategist and more.

That said, if Pooran can be a skipper…

In reply to mkcharles



TOUCHEZ!

In reply to powen001

I iz a Bajan but a spade is a spade for me.

We have big cliques in BIM long time and we have BIGGER cliques in West Indies.

Marshall was a favorite but I loved Mikey. I was mesmerized by IVA Richards but I thought Lara was a genius. If I had to lead a team I would play Patrick Patterson just for visual effect. Some of the most courageous innings played was by the Big Cat. I could watch Sobie and Khanai whole day, while Kalicharan was one of the very best we produced.

Barbadas has produced the most, Trinidad the least.

I love West Indies cricket.

In reply to mkcharles

The Windward islands has produced more than Trinidad
Allyuh men pitiable in the extreme

In reply to Jumpstart

Dude I surely put the blame on Phil Simmons, he is clueless and never learn of technology, and please don't show your ignorance to me, but brining Clive and the eras before technology into the conversation.
I have never played for Barbados, but as a fan and student of sport, I have videos from my teachers.
My first ten lessons was golf, I was sent home with a VHS of 3-4 hours of instructions.
These videos change the way I looked at my early coaching in Barbados.
Phil is just not equipped with the present prerequisite to coach any team, at any level today.

In reply to Dukes

.
Your mindset is still in the 70's, have a look at most international coaches, and see what they doing and looking at, notice the communication after every over, from the players coming onto the field.
The best person to make on-field changes in real time is the Head coach or positional coach.

In reply to mkcharles

I’m saying what I think too… club to shit, my fellow thinker

In reply to openning

Oh so you can’t play cricket…I wonder why?

In reply to openning

Firstly Simmons coached Ireland for 224 matches and took them to the cusp of full ICC membership.

Link Text
Those are Jarrod Kimber’s words about Simmons after the disastrous 2019 World Cup campaign. So what you’re saying has no basis at all. People outside the pond appreciate Phil’s work.

Secondly, players are in the best position to point out mistakes or errors to their teammates. When Sarwan was having problems with Murali in 2001, who did he go to, the coach? No, he went to Lara, his teammate. When Ambrose and Bishop just came into the squad, you think they went to Lance Gibbs……no. They went to Marshall for technical advice, even though Ambi and Marshall didn’t hit it off immediately. Conversely, Steven Finn was a victim of Andy Flower’s cumbersome coaching staff who still could not point out to him that he had a technical problem bowling to close to the stumps, many times hitting it in delivery stride. I remember when Imran gave the MCC spirit of cricket lecture, there was a panel discussion after the speech involving holding, mark nicholas, Imran, Finn and Jeff Thomson. Steven Finn told the audience that fast bowlers must not think for themselves……ie they must listen to their coaches and video analysts who know so much. I mean it was complete rubbish and it’s no wonder his was over only a few years after it started. The captain is the man in charge on the field which is why he has always taken the blame…….except with teams like India with a jingoistic support base.

In reply to Jumpstart

Sammy was punching above his weight, don't get it twisted. In 2016, there was turmoil in W.I over wages and Darren was able to get the guys to represent the W.I. Everyone doesn't have leadership qualities. You can have a good team on paper but that doesn't guarantee success. West Indies normally do better in tournaments than in international series. What happened after the World Cup? We got thrashed by Pakistan in that series, leading to RTN becoming the t20 captain. WICB couldn't wait to get rid of Mr. Sammy. He stood up to them and made his feelings known to millions of viewers. If there was a captain that could motivate a team to victory, Sammy would have to be one of the best and don't you EVER forget that .

In reply to Jumpstart

You splitting hairs fella…The combined islands used to play as one before they become LI and WI. History didn’t start overnight.

The combined island have produced more than Trinidad, perhaps with less people too.

In reply to mkcharles

Who they produce.....viv, andy, richardson, ambrose, winston davis and the two benjamins and alzarri are the only who have made a significant impact. I deliberately leave out Atherton because he only ever had one good FC season. Insularity played an enormous role in him getting as many chances as he did. Compare that with Larry Constantine, deryck murray, larry gomes, ian bishop, ravi rampaul, denesh ramdin, BCL, derck murray, sonny ramadhin, jeffrey stollmeyer, shannon gabriel,dwayne bravo, darren bravo,keiron pollard, phil simmons, tony gray etc. This two in a country where web are very good at several other sports, such as football(2006 World cup participants), athletics, swimming and cycling.

As far as the early 70s, combined islands were regarded as anoutpost of WI cricket. Frank Worrell had, in the 60s, conducted a few coaching clinics there and said that the Leeward islands would produce the next generation of WI stars, which proved true from andy until curtly. But those 9 aside, they've produced nothing

In reply to Windiesfan78

what happened was that Sammy got fired for rightfully exposing cameron, albeit three years too late. The reason we got thrashed was because RTN could barely make the team.In fact he was only picked because Pollard got injured before the world cup. And the fact that he got it for essentially being a boy scout, much like holder after the 2014 india fiasco, would not have endeared him to any of his teammates. It wasn't that sammy was a good captain(i admit he can motivate people) but that RTN was viewed by his teammates as a cameron lapdog and the team was subsequently purged, like sammy and holder's teams, so he could captain


which is why i view lara and gayle's achievements in such high regard. Sammy, given the same personel in 99 would have been whitewashed easily by that Australia team, one of the best in the history of the sport. Similarly, i couldn't see him winning the 2009 wisden trophy either or giving australia a big scare in the winter tour of that year. The captain has to be one of your best players capable f backing up his instructions with performances. Sammy wasn't good enough to do that

In reply to Jumpstart

It’s quite okay to see the same things from different lenses.

If someone asks me to tell them who BIM has produced I dare not include everyone who has ever played for the West Indies especially some of the current vintage.

Same if you ask me for my list of vintage Trinis. Clearly my list would differ from the names you provided.

My list would not include Fidel or Pedro Collins in the same way that I would not include Ravi Rampaul in the second list. You most certainly wouldn’t include a Courtney Browne if I reversed the question, but yet have no hesitation in offering a Dinesh Ramdin.

It’s all perspective.

In reply to mkcharles

hoss BIMmers boycotted a test match against a SA team just readmitted after being banned for constitutional racism simply because a player, a mediocre player from the island wasn't picked. I doubt they could be viewed as the best judge of anything to do with cricket, the temptation to be insular is way too strong.


Firstly, Ravi Rampaul played a pivotal role in us winning a world cup. I don't know what pedro collins has done. We would would have never won that final if Rampaul didn't clean up Dilshan, then the best limited overs batsman in the world, early. In addition, he took 12 wickets in that tournament, second only to Sunil Narine amongst the WI bowlers. The fidel question is good because fidel was a victim of the said cliques you talked about in barbados. It seems a habit with them. Elevate the garbage, fight down the talent

With regards to Ramdin and Browne.......Denesh has four test hundreds, the second most by a specialist west indian wicketkeeper, one less than Dujon(walcott wasn't a specialist WK, he only kept wicket in 15 of his 44 tests). Courtney browne has two infamous drop catches ten years apart at the same ground, and 387 runs in 20 tests representing the WI. They're worlds apart patnas.

In reply to Barry

I stopped playing cricket and took up golf, it was an incident on the cricket field, and the lack of discipline by my club, that made me quit playing cricket.

In reply to Jumpstart

This is what makes Sammy so special. Gayle and Lara were world class players, Sammy was not. However, Sammy knew his limitations and always wore his heart on his sleeve, leading the boys in maroon to victories against stronger opponents and collecting 2 ICC major trophies along the way. He not only had the respect of his Caribbean mates but those he captained in Pakistan and Bangladesh, so much so that he took it upon himself to travel to Pakistan when others wouldn't. He led his team to the title and was made an honorary Pakistani citizen. Sammy was a good captain, leading a team in decline and getting the best he could out of them. Isn't it ironic how sometimes it takes others from outside the region to see the value in a person.

In reply to Windiesfan78

Like India with Pollard, Gayle, Big B, Russell, Narine, Badree etc?

In reply to mkcharles

YOU WON me for sure here!!

My childhood HERO!!

to this day I recall seeing him bat and just being awestruck by him

In reply to Windiesfan78

Stronger opponents?
i dunno any team that could beat a team with pollard, bravo, rampaul, narine, russell, universe boss and yes even samuels. The only other team strong enough in 2012 was SL, simply because of their mystery spinners and mahela, dilshan and sanga. In 2016 the competition was a little easier because SL had faded. We never played australia and India was still playing t20s like a compact version of 50 over cricket. As i told you, Sammy was an excellent motivator, no doubt about it. But your captain has to be able to contribute more often than not. Homie gayle was also a good motivator of people. During his time as cappo, only one man failed to conform....darren powell who was a special breed of ignoramus. And after this wisden trophy, that was it for him. Gayle just wasn't going to be the board's yes man and the WICB could not take that.

Earlier today I was harsh on Ramdin who after all is a West Indies Captain and was a decent enough player. For this I apologize.

Sadly, when the annals of West Indies Cricket is written I don’t remember him with any nostalgia in the pecking order of great WI keepers and servants of West Indies cricket.

I was also schooled that apparently Rampaul is another legend of West Indies cricket since after all he won us a World Cup, never mind T20, a world title is after all a world title. There are a few that will be happy to hear that they make the qualifying standards like the Olympics.

Take a bow Rampaul and rise to the head of the class with your good mate Ramdin.

In reply to mkcharles

Well those annals will probably be written by foreigners. Record keeping in the WI is terrible and flush with insular logic. Case in point, prof beckles trying to convince us that the BIMmers boycotted the 1992 SA test on some kind of anti-racist principle, counter to what even his own compatriots had said.

In reply to Jumpstart


Jumpy, you mentioned 15 players, how many of them would you said were in the top 20 in WI cricket.

In reply to tc1

only one. Barbados has about 10, antigua 3, jamaica about 7 or 8. But that doesn't mean TTO has not contributed to WI success. It just means that the WI has produced so many great players that their position in the pecking order drops. 15 or 16 of the top 20 WI players come from 75 to 95 alone. And there were great players before that era.

Well that is the point Mr. Jumpstart; I deliberately said Courtney Browne because I could have equally said Shane Dowrich who has a closer record. But of course he has not won a T20 title or captained the Windies.

All I ever said is Trinidad has not produced at the same level as the others. I in no way tried to diminish the vast contribution. The history is there and tells it’s only story, including some that I will leave alone least I stir waters and be equally considered a protagonist.

I am more interested in whom Barbados, Trinidad and whomever is producing NOW.

In reply to imusic

None of the players you speak of got the sort of stick that Sammy has over the years. Gayle was there during the West Indies darkest hour, helping us to qualify for the ODI World Cup. Bravo was the reason why we lost a series we could have won against India, leading the men to down tools. Pollard was the reason why we lost to S.A in the Champions Trophy on DLS, knocking us out of the tournament. He never liked listening to Gayle when he was captain, always doing his own thing which used to annoy UB. Russell played for the West Indies when it suited him. As for Narine, the poor excuse of his bowling action being the reason for not representing the W.I wasn't fooling anyone. The fact that Pollard, Bravo and Narine played for their Indian franchises during the Champion's League rather than for T&T spoke volumes to me. This is even after the Government there was willing to pay them more. All these players are certainly more talented than Sammy was. However, save Gayle, one can certainly question where their loyalties lie.

In reply to Jumpstart

I do, Afghanistan did it as a team ranked well below us in 2016. Mind you, that was the only match we lost. Also, the match against India was a match that we could easily have lost. Lendl Simmons was fortunate not to be out on three occasions in that match.
The stronger opponents I spoke of would have been New Zealand and India, we were ranked 3rd in May 2016.