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The biggest problem with WI is the fact that after 1990 we only produced 5 batsmen who finished with averages over 40: Lara, Tiger, Sarwan, Gayle and Jimmy Adams. I looked recently at the squad for the 95 series vs Australia and honestly there is no way in hell peak Australia was ever better than the peak WI....one reason is that this Australian side struggled to put away a much faded WI side. Williams(avg 24), Campbell(avg 31),Athurton(30.07 and made a pair in this series) and the "allrounder" Mr Hooper(a whopping 36). Imagine going to a World title fight with four of the top six with stats like that. And Australia struggled to beat this side. And then it occurred to me that the current WI struggle in test cricket is not dissimilar. With the exception of Gayle and Sarwan, no specialist batsman of the post 2000 era averages over 40. CWI always says they don't have money and I believe them. But producing a batsman with a sound technique to me doesn't actually require a lot of money

It involves the batsman wanting to get better.

In reply to natty_forever

and i agree with you. The responsibility of wanting to be a better player, a better person starts with you. But i think also that some of, if not most of the players want to get better. But batting is not like bowling. A bowler could not have the most efficient action and still be a beast in international cricket. With batting though, technical chinks are fatal. For example, if a batsman has a problem falling over, a bowler of middling quality and a reasonably sharp cricketing brain will exploit that. While all our batsmen are naturally very talented, it does not mean that technically they're sound....and good coaching is supposed to point it out

In reply to Jumpstart

Agree. This tho, has to be done at the grass root level, thus making a coach at the senior level redundant. What we now need at the senior level is a technical director. Planning and Strategy primary functions.

I keep posting the same thing over and over and it is ignored so why should it be any different this time.
1.Get a subjective list of the best 10 batsmen in the West Indies under 30 years old.

2.Check how many first class matches they have played.

3. when you have completed that exercise, go back to 2000 and check the best 10 batsmen under 30 years old and check how many first class matches they had played at a similar age.

Two things happen when your best players do not play in the domestic first class competition.First the first class competition is devalued and secondly your best cricketers are denied the opportunity to learn and grow into test cricketers.Instead they are playing franchise T 20 lickit or more appallingly representing the OFFICIAL WEST INDIES TEAM in LICKIT CRICKET.

In reply to Dukes

Agreed! Only West Indian players on a whole are selected after very few FC matches if any at all.

In reply to natty_forever

i agree. I remember my dad, not too long ago saying that CWI should establish a center where a few of the successful batsmen could work at analyzing techniques of both test and fc cricketers and coaching the weaknesses out of them. The first two guys I thought about were Desmond Haynes and Ramnaresh Sarwan, because they both were very correct as batsmen and have been more than willing in helping out young batsmen. They have a keen interest in the product, and not just criticizing what they see, but also offering solutions. It doesn't even need to be a full time gig.

In reply to Dukes

I agree with that as well. We play guys more on how they look.

Exactly. But then again, the CWI went to war with the players when the first franchise tournament came out. Up to that point, many if not most of the stars appeared in the fc tournament

In reply to Jumpstart

Yep, and you mentioned guys like Adams and Campbell, guys who had solid starts to their career, but had flaws that the opposition figured out how to take advantage of.

It continues to this day.

In the last 5 years,Shai Hope has played a solitary first class match that was not a test match.All his other first class matches were test matches.THINK ABOUT THAT.It is FCUKING OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!
In those years his test averages for each year were 2018=20.24,2019=19.75,2020=17.50,2021=15.38,2022= did not play. Instead of playing first class cricket he is playing ODI cricket and being touted as the best thing since sliced bread by people who should know better.It is IDIOTIC.The way to get back into a test team is to dominate at first class level so after failing miserably in test cricket from 2018 to 2021,instead of him playing 5 first class matches in 2022 to get back into the test team, he is off "dominating" in ODI cricket.Incidentally we lost most of our ODI matches while he was "dominating".

In reply to Dukes

Correct. Hope (and Brandon King) played one FC match last year and then he was off to play ODIs.

In reply to bdaTryangle

yeah....adams had a bad problem against bowling. Before the 1999 series vs australia , my mom(my parents were cricket fanatics before they got jaded) was very worried about how adams would handle Macgill and Warne

Brandon King
Shimron Hetmeyer
Nicholas Pooran
Shai Hope

These four under any other superior management, would’ve been by now the nucleus of the West Indies middle order. That this scenario has not emerged, truly pains me.

In reply to mikelegend

I could not agree more.

In reply to mikelegend

I hear you and understand that's what you and most fans might want, but do the players mentioned have the desire to leave their lucrative contracts to play test cricket?????????

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

Brandon King only played 1 match in FC cricket in 2022 not because he was playing franchise cricket for a lucrative contract but because he was REPRESENTING THE WEST INDIES in ODI CRICKET. DITTO FOR SHAI HOPE.

In reply to Dukes

So are you saying playing ODIs for West Indies is not important?

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

Not as important as developing proper test batsmen.
I would suggest that if those 4 aforementioned players were properly developed test batsmen they would be doing even better in ODI and T 20 cricket.

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy
You know very well that before there was county cricket our Barbadian test players would play league and local 3-day cricket.
Kraigg is the only one put Whites on, to represent Wanderers
Roach hardly play local cricket when he is home.
I just don't know how he prepare for a tournament.

BTW, the legend competition is on, and Dowrich who was selected to captain a team is gallivanting in Miami.

In reply to Dukes

I disagree that ODI is inferior to test cricket...there are both international competitions among top players. I doubt our 2 world cups and I champions cup players would agree that those matches/competitions were inferior.

In reply to Jumpstart
You played the game, how come you was not close to Warne's class?

In reply to openning

hoss this is a serious discussion....get off the trident totements

In reply to mikelegend

if again....jeez

Apt title thread

Poor content

We focus on producing survivalist batsmen

The vast majority of West Indian batsmen want to play freely.

That’s just how we are.

But they’re being molded into blockers with little attacking intent. That is deemed to be the “successful” model.

And then we wonder why the majority of young, talented players gravitate to the shorter forms of the game.

Not only does it make more money, takes much less time, has more spectator engagement, but it also encourages attacking cricket.

West Indian batsmen in the test arena save for maybe Kyle Mayers are by and large an anethma to West Indian batsmanship.

In reply to imusic
Franklyn Stephenson had similar views speaking on Mason show yesterday, one of his stalwart is playing on one of the trial teams, what he sa was a passive bowler, something different from a year ago, he asked the reason for him bowling that passive, he said that's the way the coach within the BCA want him to bowl.
Franklyn let the whole of Barbados and world know, you cannot teach from a manual, look at what the player brings, and get him better.
He want all the present manuals to be thrown out, that's not the way to improve players, each one brings uniqueness to the training centre, make them better.
No wonder we have a group of robots, I can see why Kraigg is batting the way he is, the head cricket coach in the Island is Wendy Springer, if one of his players at Cawmere was score was more than 50 runs, don't care how long it takes him to score a hundred, that would the team focus, winning was second.

In reply to Dukes

What shit….Warner glowed in t20 first … u want to ban t20 participation

In reply to FuzzyWuzzy

So to play test cricket they must take a vow of poverty?

In reply to Barry

Dukes stil trying to convince people that Warner made Oz test team based on his performance in Oz FC cricket

In reply to imusic

Some people are too dense to allow facts to rule their thinking.

In reply to openning

This does not surprise me at all. The BCA wants bowlers who bowl a consistent line, limit runs but it is clear they don't want a match winner. Its a real 90s english approach to cricket

In reply to Jumpstart

what is Tnt approach to fast bowling.

In reply to tc1

We don't have one. We have been extremely fortunate to find Bishop, Gabriel, Rampaul and Searles in the last 35 years. Trust me, its not because of some deep search or systematic plan.

But this isn't the topic. We are talking about the inability of the West Indian batsman, with the exception of a few players to score consistently. I don't even consider kraigg and co because those boys were placed in the firing line because the waterfalls manager and the dinosaur(s) in the BCA felt the need to exile gayle and co. What has resulted is a bunch of on the job trainee test cricketers. And the rut in West Indian batsmanship precedes them by a decade or two, although the current uncompetitiveness of the west indies team falls squarely on their and the two St Lucians' shoulders. WI cricket has never been as bad as it has been in the last 12 years.

Of the 136 players that have represented the West Indies since 1990(starting with Ezra Mosely, the first west indian to debut in the 90s) only five batsmen averaged over 40. That is truly alarming. It points to more than a lack of application. That is symptomatic of the weakness of institutions, coaching, fc matches etc

In reply to Jumpstart
Many West Indies fan, have not given credit to English Counties.
Our former players had a place to develop their talent, most of them before having county contract, would had been practicing about 15-20 minutes Tuesday - Thursday, that's was the times for practice at clubs in Barbados.
Just think of getting to a place where you can work on every aspect of your game daily and for hours, and for 3 months yearly, you are travelling and playing cricket, and being paid for it.

In reply to openning

yeah....county cricket was crucial. But the English got fed up of the WI and Pakistan beating them so they put severe limits on the amount of foreigners a team could have. The international game has suffered because of that. For one thing, home advantage wasn't such a crucial factor because almost every pitch and atmospheric condition in international cricket is found in England during the summer.

In reply to Jumpstart

Lara,Gayle,Chanderpaul,Sarwan and ???.

In reply to Jumpstart
It was just common sense, why would you develop a group of foreigners to beat you?
Was WICB and WIPA blind not to see the result of what can happen, with our players not having the development structure and tools to move forward?

In reply to Jumpstart
Your legacy was not that good, so don't blame the dinosaur(s) in the BCA .
We started losing when Richie Richardson became captain, it continued with Lara to Kraigg.

In reply to Dukes

Hety??

BTW…..Sarwan BARELY makes that list. Good thing he retired when he did or else he woulda end up in Ganga and Devon Smith company

In reply to openning

The OECS believed they had natural talent… cross batting and partner beating went the way of the bananas… say yeah, yeah

In reply to imusic

Is it fc or test average?

Apt title thread

Poor content

We focus on producing survivalist batsmen

The vast majority of West Indian batsmen want to play freely.

That’s just how we are.

But they’re being molded into blockers with little attacking intent. That is deemed to be the “successful” model.

And then we wonder why the majority of young, talented players gravitate to the shorter forms of the game.

Not only does it make more money, takes much less time, has more spectator engagement, but it also encourages attacking cricket.

West Indian batsmen in the test arena save for maybe Kyle Mayers are by and large an anathema to West Indian batsmanship.


The above is the most forceful statement on our sorry batsmanship in the region that I can find going around.

In reply to openning

hoss.....we actually started losing during viv's tenure. By that i mean games of consequence. After 75/76, clive only went behind once in a series, versus Australia in 81/82(i don't count the NZ farce in 1980). Viv went behind versus pakistan twice and england in 1991. And that losing was the result of not producing quality batsmen.

In reply to Dukes

Jimmy Adams

In reply to Jumpstart
Which series did Viv as captain lose?

In reply to openning

I'm talking about test matches, which is why i said games of consequence. Viv never lost a test series

You had to bowl aggressive in the trials to make a Barbados team....and you had to bowl aggressive to make a WI team....Keuth Boyce always told me a fast bowler has to bend their back at Shell Shield level.

A Barbados trial back in the 80s and before was something else!

In reply to Jumpstart
Only a person with a dislike for another, will look at a person with a complete series win, and focus on the few matches lost.
I am going to be nice, because the scripture teaches me to love, not hate.

In reply to Jumpstart

A thread that had the potential to develop into a well-rounded discussion has again been hijacked with the rum shop mentality and its attendant parochialism. Ryan really did this region a dis-service when he constructed this Board and then labeled the section for cricket conversation a Rum Shop!!!

What constitutes batsmanship? Can't just put up an arbitrary metric such as having a 40-point average and name everyone's favorites. That makes the discussion subjective and allows for all the other commentary exhibited to date.

Why have we not continued to produce cricketers with first-class batsmanship?
Address the question of human and material resources WI required to keep our talent pool and developmental structures relevant and consistent with requirements. Less than 20% of the postings so far have grappled with this glaring issue.

Again, if this Board is a reflection of the wider WI society and the way its policymakers and think tanks ruminate over Caribbean cricket, we will go the way of the Dodo bird!

In reply to openning



like you dont know Not Dinas and his agenda

Been saying for years that we play the game to passively. Bowlers never really attack and batsmen walking out prepared to be walking back in shortly. Just no confidence in their abilities to perform. Old timers would tell you what they would do on said day and just do it. Them fellas would drink all night and still come ready to play.

The fast bowlers in the region also allow the passiveness by not attacking the batsmen at all. Fidel and Best were probably the last two that would even do that. This line and length is for the medium fellas. Batsmen learn by fire.

In reply to cumberland
Dude, the main reason for this thread Dinanath Ramnarine, wanted to speak about people that did not agree with him, when he was at WIPA.
His discussions always show the people or region, he has a dislike for.

In reply to openning

yuh see why bajan cricket has devolved to trash......a total inability to have a decent discussion

I mention this to show that VIV did not have as strong a team as clive. For one thing, i know Clive didn't have any frontline batsmen averaging in the 30s. Viv had two....carl hooper and keith athurton. My point is that the team was weakening because we were not finding replacements firstly for clive and larry gomes, and then greenidge, and then finally Viv. And of course we still haven't found an opener to replace dessie haynes

In reply to cumberland

in cricket, there are metrics that show competence. Generally, the bechmark for greatness in batting has been an avg of 50. Most teams will not have more than one or two batsmen who average more than this. Conversely, most teams that are successful have batsmen averaging over 40 WI 1980s: Viv, clive, greenidge, dessie, richardson and Larry gomes(39.63 is virtually 40 especially when you consider how many times he batted with the tail)all averaged above 40. Australia late 90s and 2000s:slater,mark taylor, S waugh,M Waugh, david boon, ponting, langer, gilchrist, hayden. All of then averaged obver 40 once again. It is no coincidence that these sides won so much. They won because their batsmen usually made enough runs for the bowlers to defend. Its not rocket science. That is the basic metric of success. As viv said, a good or great innings will be moot if it does not contribute to your team's success. Why do you think Lara rates his 213 higher than all of his innings?

In reply to cumberland

producing a competent batsman does not require the sort of money that most west indians think it requires. The only expenses are the equipment and the coach's salary. Before india was high and mighty, they had great and competent batsmen. Pakistan has quite a few players who've come from desperate backgrounds. Yet most of them have reasonable technique, techniques that are able to withstand an examination by a bowler.

In reply to analyst-kid

surely that aint the case now....not with the cannon fodder they produce

In reply to Jumpstart

producing a competent batsman does not require the sort of money that most west indians think it requires. The only expenses are the equipment and the coach's salary. Before india was high and mighty, they had great and competent batsmen. Pakistan has quite a few players who've come from desperate backgrounds. Yet most of them have reasonable technique, techniques that are able to withstand an examination by a bowler.

I disagree! IN TODAY"S WORLD where the developed cricketing countries have spent acres of money on their developmental structures, what you see on the field is a RoI for them. You will not get back the days where a guy just batted a 1000 balls a day and made himself a "great". To produce a test fit batsman in TODAY's scenario WILL require that WI find the financial resources or partner with people who have the money to spend on the person and systems and structures. Your "only expenses" remark may well be a hefty sum. The Asian batsmen who have made it to test cricket despite difficult circumstances eventually got the support and resources needed to make their technique "withstand examination". A WI cricketer is virtually on his own after U19.

In reply to cumberland

I think we need to also look at the volume of first class matches played by other countries before one makes their debut, yes, there are exceptions. In our case the reverse seems the case.

In reply to cumberland
really? because in pakistan, up until very recently, their players were plucked out of literally nowhere. Mohammad Yosuf, one of the most exquisite batsmen of the last 35 years, was plucked out of a tailor's shop. And from all accounts he was close to being the finished article even then. He didn't receive a great deal of coaching. Inzi ul haq didn't receive an exorbitant level of coaching either. As i stated earlier, at the professional level, you are not expecting players to come in with the massive technical chinks our players are coming into international cricket with. Those things are supposed to be rooted out at the junior levels. Junior level coaching does not require exorbitant amounts of money. Just because India, England and Australia have complex setups that require massive amounts of starting capital, it does not mean that is neccessary to make a competent batsman. England has found that out with a number of their players like rory burns and Keaton Jennings. You need good age group coaching and that can be locally sourced. We had a high performance center here that was closed down by that moron Cameron. In favor of what? Funding a PCL that paid players, players who would never be good enough, to make nothing. Height of idiocy

In reply to analyst-kid

I saw more testing fast bowling from the Bajan U19 team than I have seen from any WI attack in the last 10 years. WI batsmen played against fast aggressive bowling from all regions back in the day. The batsmen had to have mentally prepared to stay at the crease. These recent vintage have the shots but are mentally challenged when at the crease.

Most of the batsmen were not great players of spin when they got on the seen but adapted. The main thing going for them was pace bowling would not bother them at all. We have top order batsmen who jump in the air and put the bat in front their faces to defend

In reply to openning

Brother is standard English your fourth language?

In reply to seaegg99

Who were the children bowling to? Other children ?

In reply to seaegg99

While I'd like to believe you, bajan cricket has regressed so far that I wouldn't hold my breath