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Best batters of pace bowling

 
allan 2023-05-17 17:25:28 

Following a previous thread:
here are the best batters of pace bowling I have seen (Live or Video):
- Viv Richards
- Gary Sobers
- Javed Miandad (pakistan)
- Sunil Gavaskar (India)
- Allan Border (Australia)
- Graham Gooch (England)
- Alec Stewart (England)
- Graeme Pollack ( South Africa)

 
Onionman0 2023-05-17 17:51:50 

In reply to allan

Boycott
Dravid
Lara
Sachin
Lamb

 
doosra 2023-05-17 18:05:33 

In reply to allan

you saw Sobers?

 
WICFan 2023-05-17 18:11:09 

In reply to allan

Robin Smith

 
Keibo 2023-05-17 18:20:02 

In reply to allan

Allan Lamb
Armanarth (Idian Batter)
Richie Richardson
Luther Kelly
Basil Williams

 
Drapsey 2023-05-17 18:27:51 

In reply to allan

Christopher Henry Gayle

Played just about his entire career as an opening batsman and has two (count them) triple tons to show for it.

And please don't bring up Chaminda Vaas. He didn't have much pace.

 
allan 2023-05-17 18:32:44 

In reply to doosra

video
I said that above

 
allan 2023-05-17 18:33:52 

In reply to Onionman0

lara was a better player of spin bowling
but Glenn Macgrath had him in trouble quite often

 
analyst-kid 2023-05-17 18:54:16 

Lara didn't also overcome Donald/Polock

I saw Hartley Alleyne hit Graeme Pollock a nasty blow on his head....that was horrific! It's on YouTube....but that was an aging Graeme Pollock same as Marshall terrorised an aging Gavaskar home and away in 1983...Marshall actually caused Gavaskar to drop from opening to bat in the middle order.

 
Barry 2023-05-17 19:01:19 

In reply to analyst-kid

Any evidence of Lara and Pollock? confused

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-17 19:04:00 

In reply to analyst-kid

Lara didn't also overcome Donald/Polock

lara has two hundreds versus donald....both in odis, one in bloefontein, donald's home ground in 1992. Lara has two hundreds, including a double hundred vs pollock at the Wanderers, SA's bounciest strip. Lara struggled against donald once....on the 98 tour that CWI messed up. He never overcame donald because he only had one proper tour against him, in 1998, where nobody was focused on cricket. In 2001, donald wasn't as fast and wasn't as effective. Lara was dismissed more by kallis on that tour than donald or pollock....in the 98 series, he hit donald for 3 sixes in two overs at Durban, as distracted as he was. And was the only batsman who looked remotely capable of dealing with the hostility, other than ridley jacobs who simply chanced his arm

IRONICALLY, Lara has 4 hundreds against attacks containing waqar and waz in one calendar year, in 1993, when waqar and wasim said they were at their quickest

 
Barry 2023-05-17 19:06:49 

In reply to analyst-kid

Lara didn’t fraid Kallis but he fraid pollock? Show me stats
Link Text

 
Dukes 2023-05-17 19:08:16 

In reply to Drapsey

And please don't bring up Chaminda Vaas.


He who excuses himself, accuses himself!!!!!!!

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

 
openning 2023-05-17 19:10:44 

In reply to doosra

you saw Sobers?

You may have read my post of a team I played for being bowled out for 6 & 9.
T&T used to remind me of that team, I saw Sir Gary running thru that team one evening at the mecca, they fell faster than a pack of dominoes.
Thanks to T20 cricket they can entertain by whining, the Party stand is Trini made. rolleyes

 
Dukes 2023-05-17 19:12:12 

In reply to allan

Keith Stackpole and Roy Fredericks ( so says Uton Dowe) lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

 
Barry 2023-05-17 19:13:42 

I never thought I would like South African whites more than you here
Link Text

 
Barry 2023-05-17 19:14:52 

In reply to openning

Most nasty comment that I have read here- I gone evil

 
Barry 2023-05-17 19:15:36 

You may have read my post of a team I played for being bowled out for 6 & 9.
T&T used to remind me of that team, I saw Sir Gary running thru that team one evening at the mecca, they fell faster than a pack of dominoes.
Thanks to T20 cricket they can entertain by whining, the Party stand is Trini made. rolleyes
confused

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-17 19:17:57 

In reply to Barry

hoss de man just envious TT has the capital(gorgeous women) to distract from consistent west indian failure in the last 28 years

 
tc1 2023-05-17 19:23:47 

In reply to Barry

The truth hurts red Barron, aka as red baccra. lol

 
Overthrow 2023-05-17 20:01:44 

My vote Lawrence Rowe

 
Barry 2023-05-17 20:18:38 

In reply to tc1
I don't think the Barbadians are more innovative than Trinidadians -- Do you think Bajans are? You copy carnival and calypso, no? For crop-over, yes. These dotish tits don't mind -they having fun . . .

razz razz razz razz razz razz

 
openning 2023-05-17 20:52:45 

In reply to Jumpstart

hoss de man just envious TT has the capital(gorgeous women)

Moving to Calgary and being the first black man to work upfront in the hospitality business, it became easy to be a piece of meat.
I chose to be selected, would not be used by anyone..
I was like a kid in a candy store for my first 3-4 years, hurting a number of women that love me.
My first wife has a doctorate in education, even after we got divorce we remain a family, we inherited two lovely sons from the death of her sister and brother in law.
I have always been a family man, saw it with my mom and her siblings, but I was a rogue my first ten years here, I was like a kid in a candy store.
Having a daughter who is the strongest person I know, my two sons from the death of their parents, and some of the strongest nieces in this world, is what calm me down.
Life at times serve you some curve balls, I have shared my ball with Imusic and Narper.
Cricket is a sport I always love, I was never the best at it, have always respected my peers who were better at it than me.
Talking about Trini women, most outspoken group I have ever met, have no filter.

 
allan 2023-05-17 20:56:18 

In reply to Dukes

dowe should not bounce

 
allan 2023-05-17 21:00:45 

In reply to Overthrow

the man was allergic to grass and quick bowlers ( ask Thommo and Lillee)

 
Dukes 2023-05-17 21:08:17 

In reply to Overthrow

My vote Lawrence Rowe


He did not do too well in 1975-76 after his century in the 1st test.

 
sudden 2023-05-17 21:13:38 

In reply to openning

Buddy, why don’t you let the Tits have their glory

They deserve it

 
imusic 2023-05-17 21:17:04 

One of the unheralded would be Hilary Angelo Gomes

Faced some of the most fearsome pace attacks including Thompson, Lillee, Hadlee, Waqar, Wasim Akram etc all without a helmet.

His judgement of line and length was outstanding.

No fear. Remarkable.

The way Larry Gomes batted isn’t my favourite….he was dour and patient…..but his skill was undeniable

 
Narper 2023-05-17 21:50:54 

Man .....nobody heard of Rohan Kanhai and Alvin Kallicharran?

And gues what they were also master players of spin

 
doosra 2023-05-17 23:20:53 

In reply to Narper

blasphemy

 
Baje 2023-05-18 03:23:45 

In reply to allan
Best I have seen at Kensington who were not Bajans

Larry Gomes
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Majid Khan
Mohinder Armanath
Rahul Dravid
Ricky Ponting

 
Baje 2023-05-18 03:25:12 

In reply to allan
Best I have seen at Kensington who were not Bajans

Larry Gomes
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Majid Khan
Mohinder Armanath
Rahul Dravid
Ricky Ponting
Please remove Gavaskar. He was not very capable on lively wickets such as Kensington

 
Logic 2023-05-18 05:30:56 

Cant believe there is not at least an honorary mention here for one Herbert Chang. Successfully counter-attacked some of the most hostile and effective bowling seen in a cricket match, while the rest of the Jamaicans, including Jeff Dujon was running for cover

 
Onionman0 2023-05-18 05:33:06 

In reply to allan

Lara has 9 centuries against Australia... McDermott,Hughes, McGrath, Gillespie,Lee...Lara got into trouble against faster men due to his aggressive batting style....not because of technical issues....he was hit several times by McGrath, Shoaib, simply because his reluctance to let go bouncers.... interestingly, his average against India was low, although at that time ,apart from Srinath,all others were either medium pacers or spinners..

 
Logic 2023-05-18 05:34:30 

But just as shocking was the omission of Desmond Haynes. You had to bring on the medium pacers and spinners to get Haynes out, But test match at Queens Park when Thommo was decimating allcomers including the great man Viv himself with rocket-paced in-duckers Haynes stood alone in playing him comfortably ......and then got out to the change bowler

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-18 07:29:16 

In reply to Onionman0

. Lara has 9 centuries against Australia... McDermott,Hughes, McGrath, Gillespie,Lee...Lara got into trouble against faster men due to his aggressive batting style....not because of technical issues....he was hit several times by McGrath, Shoaib, simply because his reluctance to let go bouncers.... interestingly, his average against India was low, although at that time ,apart from Srinath,all others were either medium pacers or spinners..

Exactly. Against Donald in 1998, he was dismissed 6 times, in four of those he was hooking or riding the bounce

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-18 07:31:29 

In reply to Baje

. Please remove Gavaskar. He was not very capable on lively wickets such as Kensington
reply

Gavaskar has hundreds against Thommo and Pascoe at both the WACA and Brisbane. Yes his record against the WI is inflated but you don’t score runs against the quickest bowler in the world on the quickest pitch in the world without knowing a thing or two about playing pace bowling

 
FanAttick 2023-05-18 08:40:11 

FanAttick
Viv Richards
Richie Richardson
Gordon Greenidge
Carlisle Best
Allan Lamb

 
analyst-kid 2023-05-18 09:02:57 

In reply to Logic

That was an afternoon session at Kensington in 1978 when Thompson in a great historic spell of dangerous fast bowling ( some men said they were scared that evening watching) removed Greenidge and Kallicharan and had a famous duel with a counteracttacking Viv who he eventually dismissed that afternoon.

Haynes stood firm and withstood the storm. Both Haynes and Richardson loved fast bowling.

Link Text

 
CricSham 2023-05-18 10:05:11 

In reply to Dukes
Dukes ah gwine cuss yuh lazy sckunt for sitting there and letting the cognoscenti get away wid this nonsense - no mention of RBK. RBK is the fuss name we put down and then the also ran.
I dun

 
Dukes 2023-05-18 11:21:29 

In reply to CricSham

lol lol lol lol lol

My abiding memory was not even a first class match.It has been posted by me at least twice but I will post it again.It was 1973 and Kanhai was named Guyana captain and was in the running to be named WI captain after Sobers was ruled unfit due to a knee injuryI think it was the final trial match and late in the afternoon Adonis known as PACER,the fastest bowler in Guyana had removed both opening batsman and the BABU entered the fray to much applause from the crowd.Everyone was eager to find out what the greying old warrior affectionately known as the BABU would make of this tearaway fast bowler.
By this time late on a Saturday afternoon the crowd( In those days more than a thousand people were in the stands for a trial match since it was free)was in full voice due to numerous beers and rum drinking.
Somebody shouted BOUNCE DE OLE MAN and Pacer duly obliged.Kanhai ducked under that first ball easily.Now the crowd roared and encouraged Pacer to bowl another bouncer but this time it was a very quick delivery outside the off stump on a good length.Kanhai played and missed and it seemed was half way thru his shot when the wicketkeeper collected the ball.
By this time everyone was on their feet hooting and hollering.Two distinct points of view were in evidence.One group was saying de man ole and aint able with the fast bowling while the other group thought he should teach the young whippersnapper a lesson.Thew next ball created pandemonium as it was a wicked ball that got up of a seemingly good length and Kanhai awkwardly avoided it ending up on the seat of his pants.There was much laughter and shouting but the very next ball was one for the ages.It was short, outside the leg stump and quick as a flash Kanhai was in position and hooked it. The ball sailed over the stands and landed on New Garden Street and hopped over the low fence and into the churchyard.That was the end of the days play as numerous excited fans ran onto the field and there was no more play that afternoon.As a teenager that afternoon made an indelible impression on me and is a cherished memory that I will take to the grave.

LONG LIVE ROHAN BHOLALALL KANHAI

GUYANA'S GREATEST BATSMAN

 
Baje 2023-05-18 11:49:35 

In reply to Jumpstart

I have seen Gavaskar at Kensington on a few occasions failing to get inline. Also spooning shortballs in the air for dolly catches. I rate Gavaskar highly, but at Kensington he wasnt near the top. This is supported by Holding who also said that Gavaskar was not keen to stick around when the wicket was giving assistance to the quicks.

 
Baje 2023-05-18 11:53:18 

In reply to FanAttick

FanAttick
Viv Richards
Richie Richardson
Gordon Greenidge
Carlisle Best
Allan Lamb


Please remove Gordon from the list. He was good at the fast medium stuff. In his own words, "I did not relish fast bowling like Haynes, Richards and FanAttick"

 
Baje 2023-05-18 11:56:48 

In reply to analyst-kid
Haynes only faced two balls from Thommo that evening, punching one for four. However in the previous match in Trinidad on a helpful wicket with Thommo prancing up, Haynes nearly took his life. There was a hook shot that was still climbing as it left the grounds. Also in Antigua in the ODI Haynes decided "this guy just got to go" and he went as haynes plundered 140+.

 
Dukes 2023-05-18 11:59:49 

In reply to Baje

HAMMER HAYNES!!!!!!!

Look what he has come to now????
Selecting Cariah!!!!!!

 
sudden 2023-05-18 12:11:39 

In reply to Dukes

so lemme get this straight. 3 balls gave Kanhai trouble. one he ducked under easily, the second was so fast it smacked the keeper's glove before he was thru playing his shot, and the third, a well directed bouncer did not strike but felled him.

but what solidified him as a great batsman was a wayward bouncer that he was expecting, managed to get bat on and the pace of the ball carried it some distance.

and that cemented his legendary status??? well well well

i am sure a great batsman like Kanhai faced other situations that could have sufficed

 
Baje 2023-05-18 12:22:22 

In 1976 I was at the Kensington Oval for a match against TnT in the afternoon. It was cool, rainy and the pitch was not the best. Daniel who often struggled with rhythm had the breeze behind his back and chose of all days to get it right on this dicey wicket. I feared someone would got hurt, but thankfully the Trinidadian openers were not keen to get behind the ball. Wickets fell and in walked this slight frail looking left hander. I prayed that he would not get killed as Daniel was swinging the ball across his body. To my amazement this guy stood firm. No panicky hooks, no hurried evasive action. Calmly swaying out of line and riding the bounce when he could he stood firm until an exhausted Daniel was removed from the attack. I was thoroughly impressed with my first sighting of larry Gomes. Saw him at the oval a year later on a wicket taming our four prong on a deadish wicket. In 1978 he ran into Thomson 4 times and took 3 centuries off him. People always remember the terror at Kensington when Thommo was intimidating the Windies bat, few remember in the same series the "almost" terror at Sabina. That evening in 1978, Thommo was steaming in and Bacchus was like a deer in headlights. A few balls barely evaded his skull and commentators feared for his life. Thankfully he got out but the scenario looked liked Kensington all over again with Thommo on the rampage. In walked Larry Gomes, and it seemed like that miracle when Jesus calmed the waters. All of a sudden Thommo looked yards slower, as Larry just rode him liked a bucking horse. He did not duck hook or run. Just a calm controlled pacification. Then later in India on a wicket that Kallicharran claimed was the fastest he ever played on, and the wicket that produced the only result, Windies was bowled out for 150 with Gomes hitting a scintillating 90, as Tony Cozier said, his batting was a revelation. In 1979 on a dicey wicket in Australia in a first class game witha young pacer on the rampage (I think it was Wayne Prior) according to Tony Cozier, everyone ran except Gomes. Later in Australia in 1981 and in 1984 Larry continued to show his mastery of pace.
When it came to playing extreme pace I had great respect for Hilary Angelo Gomes, no helmet needed, just the protection of his hair.

 
Dukes 2023-05-18 12:39:02 

In reply to sudden

i am sure a great batsman like Kanhai faced other situations that could have sufficed


IT is the memory that is seared in my brain.

Many great innings by RBK



252 an Innings that made it to the New York Times

CLR JAMES

 
Baje 2023-05-18 12:41:36 

In reply to Dukes
Do we have better wrist spinners around?

 
Dukes 2023-05-18 13:19:12 

In reply to Baje

Do we have better wrist spinners around?



Wrong thread

 
CricSham 2023-05-18 13:20:02 

In reply to sudden
You’re not a very bright boy are you?

 
imusic 2023-05-18 13:22:50 

Agree with Kallicharran and Haynes

Two of the best against fast bowling at any time.

Only saw Kanhai when he was old and in the very latter stages of his career. Same with Sobers.

The Aussie wicketkeeper Wayne Phillips as well as India’s Mohinder Armanath we’re excellent against fast bowling. Particularly our 4 prong.

 
CricSham 2023-05-18 13:22:55 

In reply to Dukes
Dukes you just made my day and all is forgiven big grin big grin : big grin big grin
I never read that before thank you. Arlott got nothing on you bro!

 
imusic 2023-05-18 13:27:35 

In reply to Logic

But test match at Queens Park when Thommo was decimating allcomers including the great man Viv himself with rocket-paced in-duckers Haynes stood alone in playing him comfortably

Hmmmm. While Haynes was very good against fast bowling, he also was in the team that afternoon at Kensington Oval when Jeff Thomson ran amok against the WI batting lineup.

Haynes on that afternoon was smart. He hid at the non strikers end while Thommo unleashed on his teammates. Viv tried to take on Thommo and failed.

It may have been the fastest spelll of bowling ever seen in the region.

 
granite 2023-05-18 13:36:56 

In reply to allan

Majid Khan must be in that list,there are other Pakistanis too.

 
Baje 2023-05-18 13:51:51 

In reply to imusic
You never saw Larry Gomes,

 
sudden 2023-05-18 13:54:28 

In reply to imusic

i was there. Haynes didnt run. the senior batsmen decided they would face most of Thommo

 
imusic 2023-05-18 14:01:34 

In reply to Baje

I did. I posted about him on this thread

 
Walco 2023-05-18 14:22:50 

In reply to analyst-kid
I saw that game live and Kalli looked the most comfortable against Thommo that late afternoon. Kalli was dismissed by a snorter though. Viv was swiping and Haynes viewed most of Thommo's hostility from the comfort of the non-striker's end. I don't think match should be cited as an example of Dessie's prowess against express fast bowling.

 
seaegg99 2023-05-18 14:32:26 

I would put Sobers, Richards, Kalli and Freddo all in one basket as #1.
Having seen all of them I couldn't separate.

The lack of fast bowlers in the region have allowed our regional batsmen to be come cowards.

 
SnoopDog 2023-05-18 14:34:37 

In reply to Walco

i could swear I saw a video a few years back on YouTube of a 60somthing year old Kalli flickng Tito Best for 6 at Kensington Oval during a charity T20 match.

Even at that age Kalli still had the natural ability to play fast bowling.

 
Walco 2023-05-18 15:31:33 

In reply to SnoopDog
Kalli is the best batsman against pace bowling that I have seen in person. Freddo was great as well. I never Sobers, Kanhai and the others of that vintage in person.

 
googley 2023-05-18 15:46:37 

In reply to SnoopDog

These chaps (Kanhai and Kalli) grew up learning to bat with no pads and a coconut branch bat and mastered it. wink

 
allan 2023-05-18 16:21:19 

In reply to FanAttick

Carlisle Best ? you kidding

 
analyst-kid 2023-05-18 16:28:42 

In reply to allan

Bessie loved the challenge of facing fast bowling..

He withstood the might of Roberts ( not that time Roberts terrorised Barbados and Collis King swiped his way to 75)

He took on the likes of Patterson Walsh and Holding at Kensington Oval.

 
doosra 2023-05-18 19:56:22 

2 men juss geh lik dung and viv walk in wid cap on chewing...

deh doh mek lek dat no moh big grin

 
sudden 2023-05-18 20:04:54 

In reply to doosra

I tort Itito said Gomes was one of the best players of fast bowling

Then again that was medium pace big grin

 
doosra 2023-05-18 20:12:47 

In reply to sudden

he was tough...think he has 5 100s against Aus

a few hits here and there no problem

 
FanAttick 2023-05-18 21:45:27 

In reply to allan

I saw Best chip down the track and deposited Courtney Walsh into the press box at the northern end at Sabina park..he did it so effortlessly you could swear Walsh was an offspinner

That left an indelible imprint in my mind

He also tore apart Devon Malcolm at the Mecca

 
Brerzerk 2023-05-18 21:54:19 

In terms of batting to sustained, searing pace I would rate at least 9 West Indians above Lara.
In fact 3 WI lefties immediately spring to mind
As good to spin as Kalli, Sobers et al but to express pace no!


For instance while Lara is a Fantastic pulller he by no means hooked well

 
Overthrow 2023-05-18 22:17:11 

In reply to Dukes

Rowe sustained an injury early on that tour. He tried to play through it with little success.

 
doosra 2023-05-18 22:57:24 

In reply to Brerzerk

we argued here before how the bouncer rules impacted on players learning to play the short stuff

if you don't have to deal with it, you probably don't learn how to...

what say ye

 
Logic 2023-05-19 11:21:38 

In reply to Baje
Thanks for that artful reminder of the prowess of Larry Gomes. Because he wasnt a big hooker or back foot driver it's easy to forget how at ease he was against pace.

 
brians_da_best 2023-05-19 11:23:46 

Lara was very good against pace bowling. He was much better against spin so that sometimes makes one think he weaker against pace. But that is absolutely not true.

Lara has scored runs against all the top fast bowlers and in all conditions.


Chanders was also an excellent player of fast bowling

 
Emir 2023-05-19 12:46:30 

In reply to allan

Lara himself has rubbished the fallacy that McGrath got on top of him. Look at the stats- it will show that Lara got lots of runs against him and yes he did also fall to him as well.

 
Wally-1 2023-05-19 13:00:14 

In reply to allan
First name on that list should be Roy "Freddo" Fredricks.

 
Wally-1 2023-05-19 13:18:56 

In reply to Dukes

He did not do too well in 1975-76 after his century in the 1st test.


At least he got a century, but Freddo took it to them with that memorable 169. A former player on that tour told me that Tommo was so feared that whenever he came off it would be passed down the bench outside the dressing room like a stadium wave, "Tommo come off, Tommo come off."

My brethren Mackey, who is a poster here, went down under to a few of those test matches when we were playing Sunlight schoolboy cricket.

I remember he brought back to school a one in the island Slazenger bat.

 
imusic 2023-05-19 13:40:43 

In reply to Wally-1

I don’t know if Freddo was a bettter player of fast bowling than Alvin Kallicharran

Kalli was amazing.

 
Bigzinc 2023-05-19 13:48:03 

In reply to Wally-1

Where is C H Lloyd on this list... Lloyd was an excellent player of fast bowling and a proficient player of the hook.

one CL Hooper was also excellent against fast bowling.

 
Brerzerk 2023-05-19 15:21:46 

In reply to doosra
As Chrissy would say correct is right. But the other factors of GUTS and Tenacity are also big parts.
Das why I'd say there are 4 WI lefties from one single country that I'd put ahead of Lara re handling searing pace
Freddo
Kalli
Big Cappo
And Yes SHIV! Why Shiv? Even though Brett Lee fling 'im dung I think he was more adept than Lara at handling the bouncer i.e. Avoiding by Ducking, Weaving, Keeping his eye on the ball, Hooking;
as well as being more steady on his feet (didn't jump around in his crease to fiery short stuff)

 
allan 2023-05-19 15:36:44 

In reply to Emir

i remember a young Marlon Samuels protecting him from Glenn McG on trhe australian tour

 
allan 2023-05-19 15:37:08 

In reply to Wally-1
yes he also was good

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-19 15:46:46 

In reply to Brerzerk

And Yes SHIV! Why Shiv? Even though Brett Lee fling 'im dung I think he was more adept than Lara at handling the bouncer i.e. Avoiding by Ducking, Weaving, Keeping his eye on the ball, Hooking;
as well as being more steady on his feet (didn't jump around in his crease to fiery short stuff)

homie.....chanders strike rate never reaches above 50 in any country where pace bowling dominates. That means he wasn't attacking the ball as much as lara whose strike rate is always over 55 in every country(over 60 in australia). If tiger isnt attacking the ball as much as lara, that does not mean he's a better player of fast bowling.....in fact it means he's extremely one dimensional


Chanderpaul never scored a hundred versus waqar as wasim....lara scored 6, 4 in one year. unless those two were medium pacers. lara's average vs sa is 50, chanderpaul's is 37. lara has 9 hundreds vs australia, including 3 double hundreds. Lara has scored a hundred every time he has visited australia.....chanderpaul has never scored a hundred down under.

 
Brerzerk 2023-05-19 16:20:58 

In reply to Jumpstart
False analogies-a. S/R vs. pace as a determinant. b. Greenidge scored only 1 ton down under and on his very last tour there, 6 fifties and avg 30 32 inngs.
Gayle has 2 and 1 fifty Avg. 49 10inngs. One can extrapolate for different eras and attacks and Gayle's down-under stats still pips CCG. But no one could
dare say Gayle was a better allround batsman to fiery pace than Greenidge. One day we can do some research of Shiv's and Lara's innings to determine how
many runs were scored vs the fast men in those innings and at what sr. Just throwing out that a man scored tons in an inning vs attacks with certain fastbowlers
is not a full pic. Lara we do know murdered the spinners

 
Barry 2023-05-19 16:30:14 

Berserk indeed big grin

 
Brerzerk 2023-05-19 16:33:02 

In reply to sudden
Gomes was damned good to pace like fyah and cool as cucumber too even if he got hit.
Sabina '77-'78 Thommo tearing away, Basil 'Shotgun' Williams fended off one that reared from length.
It hit the splice of the bat and went for SIX over Third-man by Headley stand. After that Bacchus and Co.
were batting at square-leg. Kalli who didn't stay long and LARRY GOMES excepted.

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-19 17:29:35 

In reply to Brerzerk

False analogies-a. S/R vs. pace as a determinant. b. Greenidge scored only 1 ton down under and on his very last tour there, 6 fifties and avg 30 32 inngs

homie you must be the only person who doesn't know that GG had a problem against express pace, caused by his struggles in 75/76 and growing up playing on seaming wickets in the uk instead of hard wickets in the wi

Secondly
Just throwing out that a man scored tons in an inning vs attacks with certain fastbowlers
is not a full pic. Lara we do know murdered the spinners

how many spinners did SA have when lara scored 202 at the Wanderers? they had one, robin peterson who only bowled 13 overs. that is a most insipid argument. Lara dominated bowlers and went out to dominate bowlers for prolonged periods. yes sometimes he perished attacking....very much like viv richards who would have probably had 70 centuries in tests if it wasn't for his ultra attacking modus operandi(at one point, viv's SR was 90 in tests). Another chink in your very porous argument. Chanderpaul came in at 5. And lara usually came in as a opener because most of the time, campbell, williams, gayle and hinds didn't last before the new ball lost even a quarter of its shine, meaning he was coming out to a fresh fast bowler and a brand new cherry.

 
Brerzerk 2023-05-19 18:38:05 

In reply to Jumpstart
Do you realize that in many a tests Chanders batted at 3 and 4, do you realize in the very series you cited Lara came in at 4 and Shiv at 5?
Do you also realize that many of Lara's big innings the opposition did not have tearaway fast bowlers? Brain Charles Lara is one of the finest
batsmen the world has ever seen. Very, very great to spinners, Murderous to medium, fast-medium and medium fast. Very good technique to handle seamers
especially once settled. To express pace Lara was not always settled/comfortable. Yes, even as a lil boy he handled the Bim attack but if you follow
his career he never consistently fared well to express pace. Good % of his huge scores were on pitches that didn't favor pace, vs. attacks that didn't have pace like fyah either. What were his scores in the SA 5-0 drubbing? Young Shaun, relatively young Donald, young Kallis...
The nuances of the game bro.

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-19 18:55:09 

In reply to Brerzerk

hoss chander only played 49 innings at no 4....29 at no 3.....he played 151 at number 5 where he averages 56. he averages in the 30s at 3 and 4. lara averages over 60 at 3 and over 50 at 4. sorry if the truth offends....but in no category in chanders superior to the prince. not even captaincy which both of them sucked at

To express pace Lara was not always settled/comfortable. Yes, even as a lil boy he handled the Bim attack but if you follow
his career he never consistently fared well to express pace. Good % of his huge scores were on pitches that didn't favor pace, vs. attacks that didn't have pace like fyah either.

which west indian batsman in this era of medium pace in the WI has been comfortable against pace? Firstly, nobody is consistently comfortable against 90mph+ and it is a great reason why the WI won for so long. Even the South africans during the rebel tour withered under the barrage of the WI replacements......and those are guys who were used to facing garth le roux, mike proctor....genuinely quick bowlers. So if you believe there are people who are zen serene against pace, then you're delusional. Fast bowling is frightening and express pace even more so. Secondly....most west indian batsmen have had trouble against pace because there has not been a consistently excellent paceman in WI cricket since maco. The decline in fitness standards has a lot to play in that. Which is why most of the WI batsmen of the last 15 years have struggled. Thirdly, lara has scored hundreds at Kensington oval, the wanderers, Perth's WACA, Sabina Park......against lee(who has a strike rate better than wasim), gillespie, waqar, wasim, ntini, nel.....all bowlers who have decimated west indian batting lineups consistently. even on that ill fated SA tour, lara had three half centuries, the most by anybody on the side. Fourthly, the bowlers who have troubled lara have troubled everyone else.....Glen Mcgrath averages lower than all but three bowlers with over 200 wickets.....he's bested by three 80s/90s era west indians, allan donald averages just above mcgrath, wasim and waqar are just after him.........and they didn't make their bread and butter only playing against the WI. if you're talking about shoaib.....shoaib is an even worse chucker than lee....he doesn't even appear to make an attempt to bowl.

 
Brerzerk 2023-05-19 20:12:28 

In reply to Jumpstart
There is a simple thing I said that you simply do not understand. It is one sentence.
To Express Pace I regard Lloyd, Kallicharan, Fredericks and Chanderpaul to be better than Lara.
Do you know that South African whitewash that you mention when pace like fyah reach Lara it was
The Lil Tiger Shiv he promoted to #3 and came at 4 to score his 50's? In that series he scored 3x50 and Shiv 2x5.
In the ODI that followed in one of 7 matches Shiv n Hooper had one huge almighty partnership and we one that match.
Hooper got injured while batting and thereafter Saffies employed a brutal bodyline attack from around the wkt. and all including Lara wilted.

Glen McGrath does not bowl express pace he bowled FAST-MEDIUM. Pls. stick to what I started discussing. WI best to express pace. Without adding Gomes I listed 4 better than Lara to that and all from GT

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-19 20:34:50 

In reply to Brerzerk

This wasn’t an argument about fredericks or kalli or Lloyd. It was about chanderoaul………chanderpaul scored 2 50s on that tour. If I’m not mistaken 3 half centuries is slightly more than 2 half centuries. And Lara perished attacking fast bowling. At Durban he pulled Terbrugge to mid wicket for 79. He again perished to Donald mishooking at Cape Town. He mishooked Donald for 51 in the 1st innings of Durban test also. Secondly Lara was under immense pressure. He was a captain who was in charge of a team being whitewashed, with almost no help from the likes of hooper and the rest of the batsmen and he was being criticized by idiots like Tony Cozier over political ramifications which never affected the pockets of West Indians. So tiger( who never averaged over 50 in the 90s) and Lara were never in the same category


Also……Allan Donald was not the only express pacer in the 90s. Waqar as quick as White lightning and Lara has 6 hundreds against attacks containing him and Wasim. Tiger has none. Four of those hundreds came in one calendar year

 
WI_cricfan 2023-05-19 20:38:16 

With out question the bestest batsman of fast bowling is Freddo, and that without helmet and all.

Just pads, gloves and a bat.

 
googley 2023-05-19 20:43:34 

In reply to analyst-kid

Marshall terrorised an aging Gavaskar home and away in 1983...Marshall actually caused Gavaskar to drop from opening to bat in the middle order.
....the score was still 0 when he came in...he made 236 that match.

 
Barry 2023-05-19 21:24:06 

In reply to Brerzerk
Kallicharan ran from pace in Sabina - you see him from your helicoptor?

big grin

 
Barry 2023-05-19 21:25:52 

In reply to Brerzerk

Lloyd, Kallicharan, Fredericks and Chanderpaul to be better than Lara

Ive seen Lloyd and Fredericks (six and out) Must be the MULTIVERSE Fredericks

big grin big grin big grin big grin big grin big grin big grin

 
CricSham 2023-05-19 21:44:15 

In reply to googley
Why are you wasting your precious time to explain. Some of us just love wallowing in ignorance.

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-19 22:57:57 

In reply to Barry

Plenty West Indians allow emotion to trump logic. Bajans and JA ppl do that all the time. Remember when Holding said Lara had overstayed his welcome despite scoring two hundreds in a three test series in Pakistan in his last series(even a JA publication had to tell him to calm down)

Link Text

Link Text

 
Barry 2023-05-19 23:05:24 

In reply to Brerzerk
absolute sh!t

confused

 
Barry 2023-05-19 23:07:01 

In reply to Jumpstart

Remember when Holding said Lara had overstayed his welcome despite scoring two hundreds in a three test series in Pakistan in his last series(even a JA publication had to tell him to calm down)

Yes, the people here think with their heart and ignore logic and evidence- from fruit picker to cardiologist

 
Brerzerk 2023-05-19 23:10:08 

In reply to Jumpstart
I appreciate your debate but no, my initial post is that I consider many WI better than Lara when facing searing pace and that included Shiv. And like I said Lara is a good puller but not a good Hooker that is because of that extra pace and bounce from very fast men so you are supporting my point by mentioning those 'outs'

As to Barr-He'- If you would only a. learn to read and b. learn how to read you'd see I never, ever, ever said I saw Kalli ran from pace at Sabina or anywhere else. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.Both Fredericks and Lloyd have played some of the longest back-to-the-wall innings for WI. Freddo's 150 in England '73 when Lloyd told the press who asked about Calypso cricket 'We move to a different beat now, it's called Reggae' and Lloyd's 240+ in India. so much for 6 n out.

 
Castled 2023-05-19 23:11:08 

In reply to Jumpstart

Marshall buckled Lara knees at the mecca with a bouncer to the head luckily, Lara wore a helmet. In today's game he would've gone to hospital for a scan and substituted.

Big Bird buckled Kalli knees with a bouncer to the head at the mecca.

They made guys heads harder in those days.

Richards did not wear a helmet neither did Sobers. Sobers unlike Richards played on uncovered and ill prepared pitches with no limit on bouncers bowled.

What is Lara's avg v Bim 4 prongs?

Viv avg v Bim 4 prongs is dismal around 19 or 20?

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-20 02:55:35 

In reply to Castled

You’re right. Viv’s record against Barbados in fc cricket is awful. That isn’t a referendum on him though. That is proof of how good the Bajan pacers were during the 80s.

 
doosra 2023-05-20 02:57:22 

In reply to Jumpstart

That is proof of how good the Baianos pacers were during the 80s.


baianos lol big grin big grin

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-20 02:59:05 

In reply to Brerzerk

. I appreciate your debate but no, my initial post is that I consider many WI better than Lara when facing searing pace and that included Shiv. And like I said Lara is a good puller but not a good Hooker that is because of that extra pace and bounce from very fast men so you are supporting my point by mentioning those 'outs'

How’s what kinda logic is that? So you need extra pace to bowl a searing bouncer to cause a batsman to hook? lol lol : lol. Hoss Phillip Hughes was hooking to a medium pacer. Sean abbot never bowls above 85mph. Glenn McGrath bowled many bouncers, many effective bouncers and he never crossed 90mph. As I said emotion over any kind of logic. Hoss I want you to go up to Brett lee, Wasim and Waqar and White Lightning and tell them your opinion is that Tiger played their bowling better than Lara…….they’ll laugh at you…..or probably ask you whether you’ve taken much needed meds.

And you’re speaking of hooking. Tiger didn’t get knocked out cold from Lee? Hoss I watched lee pelt down 153kph bouncers at Lara in QPO( bishop said it was consistently the quickest spell in the history of the ground) and Lara hooked 153 kph bouncers for four in the course of making his first hundred at the ground. I guessed you missed that……on the final day when QPO deteriorates badly. Which is why teams struggle to chase their consistently

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-20 03:00:49 

In reply to doosra

Lol stupid spell check caused that. Will fix it

 
doosra 2023-05-20 03:03:45 

In reply to Jumpstart

nah

let us call them bai anos from today big grin big grin big grin

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-20 03:08:21 

In reply to doosra

lol lol lol lol

 
Castled 2023-05-20 03:24:08 

In reply to Jumpstart

the topic is best players of (extreme) pace bowling

place doosra anal mess lol on ignore and answer the question:

What is Lara's avg v Bim 4 prongs?

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-20 03:44:14 

In reply to Castled

Couldn’t have been much. He would have only played against them for max four seasons. The last of the great bajan pacers retired in 1991. I do know that in his 2nd FC match in 1988., aged 19, he scored 92 vs a bajan attack containing maco and garner. Nobody else scored more than 50 in the innings. He only played against bird once. But he averages 44.14 against Barbados attacks containing Maco in FC cricket, starting in 1988 and ending in 1991. Ezra mosely also does not appear in tt vs Barbados games after 1990

 
Barry 2023-05-20 06:45:51 

In reply to Jumpstart

Indeed…lovely 90+ against Marshall before getting to play razz

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-20 11:25:34 

In reply to Barry

And in 1988. Marshall was officially ranked as the best bowler in the world

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-20 14:19:06 

In reply to Castled

. Marshall buckled Lara knees at the mecca with a bouncer to the head luckily, Lara wore a helmet. In today's game he would've gone to hospital for a scan and substituted.

Also…..getting lash is not the problem. Every great batsman has been hit. Every one. It’s how you react to it. Viv got hit from Pascoe and Hogg……and returned fire with fire and almost certainly ended both of their careers as international players.Lara got hit from Mcgrath……and pulled him for four the next ball. Lara also scored a hundred in 1994 vs Notts with an attack containing a certain Curtly Elcon Lynwall Ambrose. He actually got hit but went on to score 178…..a century that formed part of a run of 7 centuries in county cricket in 8 innings

 
Castled 2023-05-20 16:39:57 

In reply to Barry

Indeed…lovely 90+ against Marshall before getting to play

Where was game played QPO or Mecca? Who were the umps?

lol lol

 
Barry 2023-05-20 16:54:08 

In reply to Castled
When you were picking fruit, I was managing Red Stripe


In January 1988, Lara made his first-class debut for Trinidad and Tobago in the Red Stripe Cup against Leeward Islands. In his second first-class match he made 92 against a Barbadosattack containing Joel Garner and Malcolm Marshall, two greats of West Indies teams. Later in the same year, he captained the West Indies team in Australia for the Bicentennial Youth World Cup where the West Indies reached the semi-finals. Later that year, his innings of 182 as captain of the West Indies under 23 XI against the touring Indian team further elevated his reputation.


Link Text

 
Barry 2023-05-20 16:57:06 

In reply to Castled
fat fool

About that innings, former West Indian cricketer Tony Gray wrote in Brian Lara’s biography by James Fuller:

“Garner and Marshall, two of the great West Indian bowlers, tried their hearts out, it was like a David and Goliath contest and he took everything they had.”

Link Text

Now apologize to me

cool

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-20 16:57:20 

In reply to Castled

Actually…………..the spectators at the ground and Tony Gray thought he wasn’t out when given out to Big bird. He scored 67 the next season at the Mecca

Also…..I’m sure it stings that the best innings ever at the “Mecca” was by a certain Trinidadian ent?

 
Castled 2023-05-20 17:13:39 

In reply to Barry/Jumpstart

lol lol

 
PalsofMine 2023-05-28 15:47:38 

In reply to Barry
I was at the Oval for that inning. Little Lara could barely get the ball to reach the boundary but he played strokes all around the ground. He certainly was not intimidated by Marshall and Garner. Later in his career he did appear to hop about to pace bowling but when you look at his record batting on the best wickets for pacers in Australia, South Africa and England you can see that the man could indeed play fast bowling even it is his footwork against spin bowling is his enduring legacy.

 
Barry 2023-05-28 16:28:30 

In reply to Castled

Marshall buckled Lara knees at the mecca with a bouncer to the head luckily, Lara wore a helmet. In today's game he would've gone to hospital for a scan and substituted.

Any evidence, Sarge? Give me the year so I can identify the helmet issue

 
Barry 2023-05-28 16:33:59 

In reply to PalsofMine

I was at the Oval for that inning (SIC).

Sarge, you were not there. There were no odd-looking fat men who were six feet three.
Later in his career he did appear to hop about to pace bowling but when you look at his record batting on the best wickets for pacers in Australia,

What you called a hop was Joey Carew's solution to dealing with the bouncy pitches of Australia. I disagree then and now.

Sarge, you know that I know who you are, right?

 
Castled 2023-05-29 00:21:27 

In reply to Barry

The men from the mecca insist LBW didn't exist at QPO once tits were batting. Story goes your port of spain royal upstart was out LB long before the nervous nineties. Dont mind jumpfart.

The rest of the world sang in unity on Javid who was never LBW in Paki . Bowlers had to castle the geezer. Ask Gatting.

Are these twice-told tales familiar wet back Barry

lol

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-29 01:53:03 

In reply to Castled

The men from the mecca insist LBW didn't exist at QPO once tits were batting. Story goes your port of spain royal upstart was out LB long before the nervous nineties. Dont mind jumpfart.

Homie. No evidence exists to corroborate the rubbish you just wrote. Every account of that innings says that Lara’s innings was flawless until Garner got him out the next morning. I know you’re upset that Barbados, the supposed Mecca of West Indian cricket has produced nothing but trash for the better part of four decades. Trinidad has not produced much in red ball cricket either. But we at least have an excuse. There are at least three other sports that TT can rightfully claim international renown in……football, cycling, swimming and athletics.

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-29 02:01:01 

In reply to PalsofMine

. Later in his career he did appear to hop about to pace bowling but when you look at his record batting on the best wickets for pacers in Australia, South Africa and England you can see that the man could indeed play fast bowling even it is his footwork against spin bowling is his enduring legacy.

You must understand. Some West Indians had and have serious hatred for Lara. That clown Tony cozier told an Indian newspaper that Lara wasn’t good for West Indies cricket. I wonder how the WI would have survived the nineties with a lineup of campbell, Williams, Tiger, and hooper with Ridley as the keeper. Firstly, we would have lost the unbeaten title long ago, from the SA 1992 series, as Lara scored a crucial half century in that game. Would have lost in Australia as well as his 277 is widely regarded as the turning point in the series. Would have lost to Pakistan as his 96 in the oval allowed Haynes to make his hundred on a ground where the highest first innings total in the game was 125. Mark Butcher was talking about insularity in the region on a discussion about Lara on sky sports during the pandemic. Most of these misfits don’t realize outsiders can see past their refuse

 
PalsofMine 2023-05-29 02:51:40 

In reply to Barry

sorry, Barry. I am no Sarge. Dont know why you would even think so. No need to put sic next to inning as it was singular.

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-29 02:59:43 

In reply to allan

Can’t have a discussion about best batters of pace bowling without mentioning AB de Viillears. A few things can be said about him and his treatment of colored and black players specifically. But he was a fantastic player of fast bowling. The best in the post Lara Tendulkar era

 
Wally-1 2023-05-29 14:13:04 

In reply to Bigzinc

Where is C H Lloyd on this list... Lloyd was an excellent player of fast bowling and a proficient player of the hook.

Yes Lloyd was good, I'll never forget how Mickey got called up for WI. Jamaica was playing Guyana, Mikey ran in and hit Lloyd with a bouncer and the next bouncer was hit out of the island, lt might have landed in GT.

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-29 15:13:44 

In reply to Wally-1

lt might have landed in GT.


lol lol lol lol. Lloyd was a boss. I realize there's an effort by cricketing pundits outside of our region to wipe out his legacy as a captain, but stats are hard things to argue against

 
Barry 2023-05-29 17:08:09 

In reply to PalsofMine
Only a fruit picker does not know this

In British English, innings is used for both singular and plural, with the corresponding verb forms (e.g., "His innings is over."); inning is not heard except in connection with baseball or softball.




lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
sorry, Barry. I am no Sarge. Dont know why you would even think so. No need to put sic next to inning as it was singular.
big grin

 
tops 2023-05-29 21:57:38 

In reply to Jumpstart
Yes, A B was Xtremely good. When Mitchell Johnson was terrorizing all the Saffy batsmen A B was very comfortable playing him. I had to laugh. lol lol

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-30 05:14:33 

In reply to tops
Yeah. That’s exactly what I’m referring too. I’m almost positive seeing that delivery rear off a length caused Graeme Smith to retire early. Ppl say it was personal factors and they might be right. But smith had way too many bad experiences with Johnson for it not to be a factor. AB was the only guy who took it on. He got it and he attacked even harder. It was really thrilling viewing

 
Brerzerk 2023-05-30 05:43:18 

In reply to Jumpstart
You write all that stuff and then accuse others about emotion over logic hahahaha, Shiv ducked not attempt to hook when hit by Lee. It just did not get get up as expected. Same thing happened to the Greatest G. St. A. Sobers vs Trueman. To be honest, I personally have never seen Lara hook much.! Pull yes, he was one of the greatest and most savage puller. But hook (i.e. from above the chest) not much to my recollection. I remember him hooking Kallis for 6 but that was the balding slower Kallis not as fast as his young days.

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-30 11:13:44 

In reply to Brerzerk

That’s exactly what I’m saying. You obviously didn’t watch the innings in QPO. You also would not have seen him flick his wrists to a 149 KPH full delivery from Lee. Also, Chanderoaul does not have 100 hundred down under. Not one. Lara has scored at least one every time he visited and would have had a lot more if it wasn’t for atrocious umpiring.

 
Barry 2023-05-30 11:29:09 

In reply to Brerzerk

I know you can’t play cricket but answer is the hook a safe shot? razz

 
openning 2023-05-30 11:42:44 

In reply to Barry
If you are Everton Decourcey Weekes, the hook is a safe shot, because it will be hit along the ground.

 
tops 2023-05-30 17:08:13 

In reply to Jumpstart
"AB was the only guy who took it on. He got it and he attacked even harder. It was really thrilling viewing"
Very much so. A B showed his genius that day. If my memory serves me well, they set a legside trap for him to prevent him getting to his ton, and he hit a 6 to get there. As I said, I had to laugh. big grin lol

 
Jumpstart 2023-05-30 17:19:44 

In reply to tops

Unfortunately he didn’t get to a hundred. Was dismissed by a slower ball from Johnson for 91. If memory serves me correct he slapped it over Johnson’s head but got caught by David Warner at either mid on or mid off. He got deceived by a slower one. Honestly I didn’t think Johnson had that sort of finesse. He certainly fooled everyone