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what does his macho soul feel...

In reply to Raggs

What should he feel
He achieved what he wanted
And for the better of Stokes when it mattered

In reply to Raggs

Lol...i was about to bring up the Jason Holder comparison thread..

In reply to Halliwell

things he's said to this guy and said about..It would be great of Marlon ring him and rewrite the history book. Ben Stokes must be an obeah man or just simply a brilliant cricketing mind individual.

In reply to pooranian

the man creates borderline genius on the field of play.

In reply to Raggs

circumstances are different. the WI cricketing culture and infrastructure, tangible and intangible, does not allow for the creation of great test cricketers. Never has. Anyone who says, for example that lloyd's team would have been as great as they were if not for WSC and county cricket are lying to themselves. Yes Samuels is an ignoramus, but he was just a symptom of a cricketing culture that allowed world class talent like himself to atrophy

In reply to Jumpstart

nah mon, this guy Ben Stokes ain't walking in ordinary cricket shoes.

In reply to Raggs

stokes has been part of every developmental system the english have. stokes if he was in the west indies, would not even reach a third of where the english system has allowed him to reach

In reply to Jumpstart

I just have the feeling he would just Gary sobers de ting out. system or infrastructure some men just meant for immortal living.

In reply to pooranian

yea do have to wonder sometimes and compare tings

In reply to Raggs

That was some thread with people slicing and dicing stats

In reply to pooranian

stats vs moments and the winner is....

In reply to Raggs

gary sobers was a phenomenon, like viv, like lara, like mikey. they are exceptions. stokes aint no sobers

Stokes has not really looked back since RTN put that cutarse on him in the final. You cannot help but consider the mental element of life in general. Stokes is obviously very strong mentally. Talent wise, perhaps JaHo may be in the same league but he has never come across as being a person who would put his mind and body into an effort.

In reply to Jumpstart

I'd beg to differ

In reply to Raggs

hoss....stokes averages in the 30s, sobers averages close to 60 as a batsman. stokes averages 32 as a bowler, sobers 34. stokes is not anywhere close to sobers

In reply to Jumpstart

where you around when Sir Garfield Sobers was strutting his stuff? The "gentleman" game has moved on since... Could never say Stokes is better than Sobers but its worth comparing on a fair scale

In reply to PalsofMine

RTN is/was not a finished cricketer. He was a work in process in the final, stokes choked and he rightfully cashed in fully. Stokes from a technical standpoint is very sound, in both respects. RTN's action was uneconomical and he never utilized his enormous strength in his bowling. That comes down to coaching. I have said it repeatedly that with quality coaching, holder and rtn could have been phenomenal cricketers. RTN has a phenomenal cricketing brain, you saw it in his analysis of where he hit those four 6s. But holder, at 6'7 never utilizes his height by jumping in delivery, so instead of delivering at close to 10 or 11 ft, he delivers at 7 or 7'3 ft.

In reply to Raggs

but stokes numbers don't even stand up with the 80s generation and the game has not moved on significantly since that time. in fact, in most ways its gotten worse. botham averaged 33 with the bat but 28 with the ball, imran averaged 37 with the bat and 22 with the ball. Kapil and hadlee could be relied on to take 20 wickets. you can't do that with stokes. and you cant rely on him to score hundreds on a regular basis

In reply to Jumpstart

stats vs moments ..I've seen quite a few magical moments from Ben Stokes enough for me to put stats aside and just look at sheer ability

In reply to Raggs

you're older than me so im sure you saw imran nearly berat all time great WI sides almost by himself and im sure you followed botham's feats vs everybody except the WI

In reply to Jumpstart

seen a few indeed Kapel Dev, Imran Khan, Richard Hadlee, Ian Botham and I do think Ben Stokes can sit on their table comfortably

In reply to Jumpstart

If Stokes were a West Indian, we would likely be singing a different tune

De man won a World Cup. Yeah…..he won that one for England against NZ

He won Ashes test matches

He’s won just about everything there is to win in international cricket

And done it with both bat and ball.

Now he’s winning as captain.

Hell..he even claps!!!


Respect is due

In reply to imusic

Fortune favors him more than any other match winning player. If dharmasena had not made that error, nz would have won that final and stokes innings would have been a heroic failure. if tim paine had reviewed the clear lbw in that test where stokes made a match wining 135, again england would have lost and australia would have won the ashes away from home. kallis success as a batsman(you as well i have seen kallis not given on plumb lbw calls too many times early in his innings) has as much to do with the absence of UDRS in the same way that stokes gets lucky.

i am not belittling anyone's achievements as mistakes by umpires and dropped catches are all part of the game of cricket. I think that Stokes is a very good player and currently one of the best in the world. He has also had a fantastic start to his captaincy. He makes the game enjoyable to watch and that is it.

In reply to Jumpstart
and that is where the putting of the mind and body into the game shows up. Holder has never taken steps to improve his bowling action or his speed. He has just bowled the same way from day 1. He had great success a few years ago and then the game moved on and he did not seem to move with it and is now no more than ordinary, not fast, not bounce, no real guile in the bowling at all.

In reply to PalsofMine

This one of the biggest problems with west indians. we blame obvious structural weaknesses on the the lower end of the spectrum. If, for example, half of the students in the country fail csec math and english, we say the students are either indisciplined or worse, stupid. I've heard that many times in TT. the fact that we've seen the technical problems with holder from the start(i remember ian healy saying in holder's first international, an odi at perth, that his action limited his effectiveness even though he bowled wicket taking deliveries) and he has been preceded and followed by a hosts of other bowlers and batsmen with various chinks, says something about the quality of the system that WI cricket has, or lack thereof.

Yes personal development is key, but at the level of international cricket, you're not supposed to be making major changes. Lara tweaked his backlift a little to accommodate his ageing and injury prone body, but that isn't a major change. The fact that we produce bowlers with the weaknesses that holder and rtn have or batsmen who cannot play something as rudimentary as the short ball, or don't know their offstump from you know what, is symptomatic of poor coaching structures. Until we address that, we will never get anywhere near to being competitive again

If every indian batsman held their bat as low as privthi shaw, we wouldn't be blaming him, we'd rightfully blame the coaches

In reply to Raggs
Have you ever found out what exactly Stokes have said to Marlon as well as how and why o. More than 1 occasion? Mind you the things Marlon said about Stokes and Reifer on social media border on lunacy!

In reply to Jumpstart

Athanaze is said to have gone abroad to get help with developing his batting. He is a young lad. Holder is experienced and must have had the opportunity and funds to do same but we have not heard that he has done it. if your local coaches cant help you and you are able to get help elsewhere, do it! Athas has shown the way (and the results)

In reply to PalsofMine

We haven't seen athanaze against top opposition as yet so i will reserve judgement

In reply to PalsofMine
The same guy that Athanaze spent time with, Holder spend time with him before heading to Zim.
If you had listened to the Mason show a few weeks ago, you would have heard the coach said, Jason will be stopping over to sprint time with him, before going on to Him.
Guys are having their own personal coaches, Kraigg mention he has a batting coach during the last test series.
I know Kyle is working with Shai.

In reply to Jumpstart

it is well known in Titland that the only players who come into the test team with faults are bajans. therefore, if we cut the Bim contingency from test cricket WI will rise

In reply to sudden

well darren bravo didn't have many obvious faults. he was just a little inconsistent, given his talent. when the test series vs england in 2019 started, he was the only test batsman in that side who averaged over 40, so he was definitely more consistent than the rest of the team, but for a man who steve waugh called the next superstar of cricket, just above 40 wasn't good enough at all