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We were at the top of the world of cricket. We were respected by all and sundry, and every West indian walked with their shoulders elevated in pride. According to Tony Cozier, "he was the greatest, past and present." I still believe that this is the case, the way he manhandled all kinds of bowlers on all kinds of wickets, all over the world.

Viv had to be tough, coming from a small island, or they would have walked all over him. his successor, Richie Richardson, was his opposite in terms of temperament, and afforded all the calm and freedom they craved. Did they respect him? West Indies cricket went to the dogs after Viv Richards left. The men that were supposed to carry on that tradition was brian lara and Carl Hooper. I have no quarrel with Lara, because he came to work each day and gave his best. However, that Hooper, with the greatest promise since Richard's time, never went beyond mere promise. he occupied a space for so long on the team, being picked over and over again, based on sweet, elegant promise. However, he did not deliver in the middle order, which remained brittle from then on. if Hooper had lived up to his potential of a 55-60 average, and complimented Brian Lara, we might have avoided that fall. But, he never did, and he was picked continually on mediocrity. He epitomised mediocrity, and was rewarded with captaincy on that ordinary performance history. That represented the downward trend of West Indies cricket to this day.

Viv Richards can stand proud that he dominated his entire career, and was feared and respected by all. Those nice boys these days are liked by oppositions because they offer no threat to oppositions. We are the laughing stock of the world.

One more thing. No one, past or present has inflicted more misery upon the colonial team than Vivian Richards. And, he did it with the contempt of a man conscious of his history of slavery and colonialism. When he bated, the British were cognizant of, and felt the rage for the slavery they had imposed upon us. Viv spoke and spanked the colonialist with his bat and attitude, and maybe, just maybe, they owed him that "Sir," and that "Sir" I am now viewing in a different light while typing this.

In reply to Besar

Whoever your are, get a clue.

Viv had a complementary team.

Did Lara or Hooper have a fearsome foursome bowling quartet?
With plenty of back up fighting for a place.

Lara was basically a lone ranger.
Gayle, Selfishpaul, Sarwan et al were no comparison
to the crew around Sir Viv.

Don't get me wrong, Sir Viv is among the top three in Windies.
Arguably the best with Sobers and Lara.
Sir Viv's success as a cappo had a lot to do with supporting cast.

In reply to Besar

The main reason for West Indies decline was due to the fact that they could no longer hone their skills in the English Counties amongst professionals from across the world.

In reply to StumpCam

You hit the nail on the head! To be the best, you have to be competing and pushing yourself with the best.

Now England is smart as well - when they see a foreigner doing well in the County Circuit, they give him citizenship.

surely regional and local cricket standards had something to do with early development?

didn't those players already have it when they went to England? surely they learned over there etc but to say county cricket?

nah i ent buying that

no one would ever (arrite ok) convince me that for example Kanhai, Freddo, Kali learned cricket in the English counties and not at their respective Berbice and Guyana formative years

In reply to doosra

County cricket developed talent in a way we couldn't. If Jofra Archer had never headed for England no one would have heard of him.

In reply to Baje

Someone please tell me what county cricket did for Kanhai, Freddo, Kali, et al

In reply to Baje

Wow so as a Baje you're not giving Barbados any credit for Jofra Archer??? Cheese on bread I swore it was an injury and bad management by CWI that made him leave!!!

Hooper was not mediocre, average yes; mediocre no.
Moreover, in terms of all-round cricket you cannot find two other WI players with a better record so how could he be dropped?

In reply to WIfan26

Bim defeated many international teams, Guy, Ja and TnT held their own against international teams. We had one of the best domestic leagues in the world, County cricket and the English team were the weakest in cricket. Even weak India beat England in those days.

We were producing cricketers especially fast bowlers at the rate of hooking jacks in a good day. Forgive Baje .

In reply to Brerzerk

correct


36k FC and List A runs
950+ FC and List wickets

is no mediocre feat

In reply to doosra

He has Bravo like stats

Viv destroyed WI cricket by keeping certain Guyanese and Tits outta de team..
In other words he pulled an Elvis

In reply to tc1

his stats are better than Bravos (for example, he has a small matter of 27 000 FC + List A runs that Bravo) ...he has 500 more List A and FC wickets... of course he played more than Bravo

Bravo and Holder are more similar

[b]In reply to
I guess there was nothing before county cricket. They just fell from the sky, county cricket caught them, and honed their skills, then shipped them to play for West indies. Just a little analysis can clear up things sometimes. No credit to anything we did on our own.

In reply to Besar

i will continue to argue they were mainly a product of their local, national and regional cricket

In reply to doosra

You are correct, and as Sobers said many times, WI and others saved county cricket. Many of our cricketers made their names before playing county cricket.

In reply to doosra

Just needling you on Sir Carl.

In reply to tc1

I once asked Sir Everton, Why he gave the light so quickly when the batsman asked, he said most of the guys have families and 9-5 jobs, when one gets hurt who will look after the family? Cricket in Barbados is not a paid sport.
There are various reasons why you cannot compare our players who continue their development by playing county cricket to the seven matches played at the regional level.
Viv and others learned the work it took to be professionals.
Franklyn Stephenson accuses coaches of teaching from a book, who are the developmental coaches in the Island, can one coach at Yorkshire teach 40 guys 12 hours a week about their bowling, batting and fielding?
Kemar Roach playing for Surrey would have fast bowling, batting and fielding coaches to work with.
What about nutrition?
England knew West Indies players were benefitting from playing county cricket.
We cannot compare the people and programs that young Bethell is receiving to players his age in Barbados, even the ones with a developmental contract.

BTW, Every young regional player flaws are known to every team he/she will be playing against, these are areas that need one on one teaching.

I am not sure who Kraigg is working with or how many hours Kraigg is working on improving his batting, as a fan it hurts to see his game.

In reply to doosra

Weren’t the Colonial Powers built the infrastructure in the Caribbean and taught us how to play the game???

In reply to openning

I would like to pick your brain on what made these guys so great because it couldn't just be talent alone!!!

Was it physical prowess or the mental capacity to be great or was it just plain luck of having that much talent at once???

Is is that the World was behind in terms of tenacity and power and now because of the advent of science and equipment they caught up???

I guess it's a question no one was able to answer the way our empire crumbled!!!

In reply to Brerzerk

You are saying that he was mediocre and not mediocre in the same sentence; make up your mind. But if you are referring to style and eloquence, no one could touch Hooper. However, from what i have seen, this was one of the biggest disappointment in cricket. a man with such enormous talent that never rose a hair line above that

Bouncer laws reined your savagery in!

In reply to Besar

Show me where I said he was mediocre? Regarding sports I understand mediocre to mean below average sine you have woeful, bad, average, good. Very good and great. Maybe you see it differently; ah dunno.

In reply to Prako

YESSSSS. Bajans seem particularly susceptible

In reply to Khaga

Khaga yuh talkin' fart! Your over-obsessive take on our so-called "savagery" (brilliant fast-bowling) as the only reason for our dominance is an insult to that team's glorious batting and brilliantly exciting fielding. Those batsmen, slippers/close fielders, keepers, deep fielders and their speed over ground not only made them the best of their era but many are all-time greats. Poor attempt at re-writing history

In reply to WIfan26

Work ethics is the key to progress.
Cricket is now a professional sport, just like all the top sports being played around the world, the Australian government after the 1976 Olympics, developed a ministry of sports and hired some of the top Olympians as coaches.
Anyone who believes having a full-time job playing county cricket does not give the cricketer increased knowledge of the game, and will make players better, needs to think.

In reply to Khaga

95% of the short deliveries the WI bowled were at the ribs and the chest. you can still bowl six of those deliveries in an over. if yuh cant take the heat get out the kitchen

Some of you may or may not know that the English Minor Counties had a lot of West Indian cricket players who were playing 2nd and 3rd division cricket before they ever became first class players in the Caribbean.

In reply to Besar

dude the jingoism and fanaticism needs to stop. viv didn't average over 40 for the last three years of his career.And even though viv lost less series than clive, he had a lesser win loss percentage. if viv had lesser talents to captain, his teams would have been pounded.

In reply to StumpCam

many? no, some yes and it was because they were good FC cricketers.

In reply to Brerzerk

Bro, in colonial times the English recruited many young players from the territories to play in England.
Many of the Sugar Estates if not all had cricket facilities established by colonists!
West Indians never did it on their own.
Did Viv play FC cricket in West Indies before being selected for Windies, I’m not sure that he did.

In reply to StumpCam

viv's first match for combined islands was in 1971,and then for leewards the next year. his first game for somerset was in 1974

In reply to StumpCam
Here is a list of players that represented the Combined Islands.

Combined_Islands_cricketers

In reply to Brerzerk

This is what I said!
.

In reply to StumpCam

the only player i know who played fc county cricket before he played fc cricket in the WI was Gordon greenidge who played for hampshire before he played for barbados

In reply to Jumpstart

Players like Vanburn Holder, Collis King, Franklyn Stephenson and others may have played for minor counties, returning home yearly to represent Barbados.

In reply to openning

Holder and Stephenson played for 1st class county XI's. Gavaskar noted that in Tests Van Holder bowled a whole yard faster.
quite a few Jamaicans played in the leagues but their recruitment was in 95% of cases on the back of their domestic FC stats.

In reply to Brerzerk

I played against Vanburn his last year at Richmond, it was my first year at the U13 level, and I will tell you he did not leave Barbados with a county contract.

Several West Indians also. played league cricket.

In reply to openning

Holder played many, many, many yrs of FC cricket in England after his B'dos and then WI debut debut.

In reply to openning

Tell these folks for me please!

In reply to Brerzerk

He continued to play county cricket after his debut.
He was not around as I recalled after playing for his school in 1960/61.
Most players came home and played in the local competition after the English season, Barbados at that time had a number of players in the leagues.
Everton Weekes played league cricket for several years in England.
Roy Marshall who played for Hampshire was the first Barbadian I followed playing county cricket.

Vanburn Holder

In reply to TanteMerle

So is lie about Hooper?

County cricket honed our skills, never developed it. The passion for cricket those days was indescribable. So more kids playing on any surface with any tool was what laid a foundation. We then believed this would continue forever. It did not and the lame brain administrators stuck in the past let the game leave us behind. What was needed was Academy's for U10s etc. teaching the few who still had a passion the basics. Check Australia, England and SA at what age they have structured sessions for kids. The technology being used as well. We sit here when blueprints are everywhere to be found.

Also, we getting the formats all wrong. The Test coach must be the 50/50 coach. T20 is a totally different animal. 50/50 still require players who can bat and bat long, also bowlers that can hit a decent line and length, test cricket style. Yes, players will play all format, that's a science we have not mastered, in which players play what.

My Test Side
King
McKenzie
Pooran
Hope
Athanaze
Holder
De Silva
Motie
Joseph
Joseph
The Trini

In reply to natty_forever

i agree. playing on a wind ball cricket beach probably prepared WI batsmen for playing extremely fast, very aggressive bowling more than anything else. one english writer, i believe it was jonathan agnew said that when david frith and john woodcock were viciously criticizing the brand of cricket that the WI played, the reaction to that criticism was one of bemusement. because wi players had always played that way. bouncing batsmen, batsmen pulling or hooking bowlers. we did nothing different to what we did to our own. what county cricket taught wi players was to concentrate for long periods, adapting to different conditions and playing as a professional cricketer and not just the sunday afternoon player. skills were enhanced significantly

In reply to natty_forever

Tell Dem! Brother all players except Deryck Murray and Ron Headley an Englishman really (even John Shepherd) came home to play domestic. Sobers got Ron to play for JA one season so he could make the test side...he flopped in tests. Murray came back and walked into the team then came again in 74 and stayed in Lloyd's team until retirement

In reply to TanteMerle

Agree.

Smoking Joe and Lloyd owe success to the incredible talent West Indies produced for 2 decades.

Smoking Joe Vivi big fail is his 20 year average v Bim of 20. Richards was a mighty flop at the Mecca. Smoking Joe numbers versus the horsemen of the apocalypse from Mecca are poor.

In reply to Castled

Lloyd didn’t inherit a winning team genius. The WI had only beaten England and NZ at home between 70-71, lost to India, in large part because their bowling was so piss poor and lost to Australia at home in 74. Lloyd took men with potential(how many times has that happened) and mounded them into a good side. People wanted to play for Clive because of their respect for him. Viv on the other hand inherited a superstar team and by then the best team on the planet for the previous 5 or 6 years. People played for Vic because they were afraid of the consequences. Roger Harper dropped a catch in the Adelaide test in 88 and never played a test for the WI again

In reply to Jumpstart

Where was that said?

In reply to Castled

In reply to StumpCam

Yes our domestic cricket is not first class ,hence the region continue to produce substandard players who struggle against good international teams.