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Has there ever been an opening batsman with such a poor test average after 92 Tests?

Just asking.

In reply to voiceofreason

Was asking this the other day... will he be the luckiest WI to play 100 test matches?

Might be the last one too...

In reply to voiceofreason

The answer is No. Brathwaite averages 34 after 92 matches.

The only ones that are comparable were in the middle order:
Hooper played 102 matches and averaged 36
Marlon Samuels played 71 matched and averaged 32

The Openers that played over 92 Tests and their averages are:
Gayle 103/42
Haynes 116/42
Greenidge 108/44

In reply to voiceofreason

Very doubtful but is that good enough to replace him with somebody unproven who hasn't got the numbers or hasn't been knocking on the door let alone kicking it down....test runs are earned an not given an 12 test 100's an 30 50's is what it is....unfortunately Windies barometer for excellence is very low hence we are forced to hang on to mediocrity for longer than ideal ....Brath test career would have been over already if he was lucky enough to get into any of the top sides in the 1st place ...we dnt have an embarrassment of riches hence a 30+ ave is a big deal an guarantees you a longer undeserving mediocre career!!

In reply to CCW

Another thing to factor is "partnership." Like Greenidge/Haynes, Langer/Hayden, Sehwag/Gambhir, Herschell Gibbs/Smith, does/did Brathwaite have someone on the other end who could help and take some off that pressure off his shoulders when starting an innings or is he under pressure from ball 1?

Is Brathwaite's 32 being the only notable opener worth more based on the Team's circumstance?

From a statistical perspective, when you have a good partner, your overall performance improves

In reply to Prako

What “good partner” did Chris Gayle have?

Lucky? Says a lot about thr rest when he's had Louis, Tage, Campbell, Devon Smith, Powell, Barath, Chandrika, Lendl and others as his opening partners.

In reply to imusic

Note: Gayle batted 182 innings but opened in 173

Using Greenidge and Haynes as a Bench Mark, they batted 148 innings together and averaged 47 per partnership

Gayle & Ganga: 49 innings/41 average
Gayle & Hinds: 33 innings/39 average
Gayle & Smith: 35 innings/36 average



That accounts for Gayle's 117 out of 173 innings. For the 1st 67 percent of his career he had a consistent partner for a few years at a time allowing him to become established.

In reply to Prako

that's reasonable point!

In reply to Prako

You said a good partner.

Would you consider Ganga, Hinds, or Devon Smith “good”?

In reply to Prako

Ganga average is 25
Hinds 33
Smith 23

How is that any different to Kraigg batting partners? I really don't understand what the person at the other end gotta do with someone having a decent batting average.

In reply to imusic

I thought Hinds was a good opener in the Caribbean.

In reply to anthonyp

The better your partner, the better your confidence.

Confidence allows one to play with less worry and tentativeness being more assertive.

In reply to Acid

Could also work the other way... crappy partners will go early and give you the opportunity to come not out and improve that average.

Also, based on the stats above for Gayle partners all of them were crap yet he averaged 42 by doing the bulk of the scoring. So that nonsense about de other partner ain't make sense....

In reply to voiceofreason

In reply to voiceofreason

The great Mykyle avg. 75 after 3 test matches.

soone Kraigg will be among the 10 most capped WI test cricketer

cumulative averages over the career list

In reply to voiceofreason

Only devon Smith can compare

The thing with Kraig, he has so many limitations, but he tries. Also, few batsmen in West Indies cricket averaged over 30 in the last several years. Also, he matches up quite even with the great SIR Carl Hooper, who with all his talent was only able to achieve an average of 36 in 102 test matches.

In reply to voiceofreason

That's a good Test average, compared to the other WI batsmen....

If it's any help, Bradman after 34 Tests averaged 99, so their careers are pretty similar.

Without Brathwaite over the past dozen or so years, the West Indies would have been worse. Often, much worse. He is far from great, that much is indeed obvious. However, his resilience and fight have often saved the team from utter embarrassment. Best of a bad bunch may be one way to describe him but until other come along and stake a genuine claim for his place in the side, he should remain at the top of the order.

In reply to anthonyp
The partnership between Sir Gary and his cousin David Holdford was guided by the words Sir Gary said to him.
Lords is no different to the Park, The Park is where Holford played his cricket for his club Spartan, the energy and belief came into David, who went on to share in a wonderful partnership.
The experience at the other hand, makes it easier for youngsters.
Kraigg may have test experience but he plays every game like it is his first, we can all see why Rhiana was his bodyguard on the School bus, he shows no agression.

In reply to Prako

Stop trying to diminish Gayle by using stats to lie! Gayle debuted at 3 when Sherwin and worse than Sherwin were openers. He went in early. He dropped down the order when terrorized by Vass. That’s no different from Lloyd keeping young Greenidgevaway from Liller/Thommo for 5 out of 6 tests or Harper/Dujon sending out of form young SARS home from Oz.

In reply to KTom

Lol.

In reply to mikesiva

Good test Batsman vs his peers. Did any of his peers play 92 tests with a 34 average?

In reply to voiceofreason

They all avg less than a quarter, KBis still better than 90 % of dotties batsmen.

In reply to Prako

Maybe his batting ( for want of a better word) led to the demise of his partners who were trying to push the pace?

In reply to voiceofreason

Carty will replace McKenzie at #3 most likely

In reply to voiceofreason

here is a better word to update the revo dictionary

blocking

Kraigg Brathwaite’s “batting” makes one yearn for Devon Smith

In reply to 4REALQUICKS

maybe.....with Darren Bravo and Ramnaresh Sarwan, and Dwayne bravo and chris gayle and Jerome Taylor and fidel edwards who weren't undermined by petulant fools, we would have been in the top 3 in the world.

In reply to Jumpstart

If not in the top 3,
at lase competed way better than we did.

Any fool can see that Bravo (pre Big Idiot incident) was worthy.
Bravo was one of the best in the world at that time.

In reply to TanteMerle

exactly. people doh like to accept that CG was a great captain, our best since clive. gayle was the only person could get his team to play for him out of respect rather than coercion. And we were on the way up when he was sacked in 2010. yes we had lost to a great SA outfit(racist trash but great at cricket) but we had given australia an almighty scare in the winter of 2009(would have won if for better umpiring) and beaten england for the first time in 11 years. if gayle and the core of that side had stayed together, the process of integrating people like darren bravo, shannon gabriel, and later shai hope and alzarri would have been a lot smoother than it was, which was characterized by either high turnovers of the test team or the selectors not picking the best team available. That is why i hesitate to blame the WI's problems on funding. The west indies cricket board has been shooting itself in the foot with a shotgun for decades now, simply because insecure, petulant men don't understand that they're not the cricketers

In reply to Jumpstart

You are so right

We were ‘better’ than SARS
We were ‘better’ than an ageing yet performing Shiv
We were better than ‘mercenaries’
WI cricket was ‘bigger’ than any individual

Therefore

Take your 100 test matches and can’t crack a 40 average

The man average never ever touched 40 at any point in those 92 tests ...... he was consistent in the low 30's though. Maybe that consistency is what is making him a sure pick

Gayle was the last good cappo.

The so-called mercenaries were a lot better than these retarded lot.

VOR had one thing right.
Windies governance is non-existent.

Politics killing Windies cricket.

In reply to Kay

Named me a WI player that touch 40 since Gayle if you that smart?

In reply to tc1

This is the topic being discussed:

In reply to Kay

What a copout

In reply to Kay

Not once. I think the highest it was was 37 in England in 2019

In reply to mikesiva

I was waiting to hear who the replacement would be.

In reply to Kay

I understand we all mean well on the board but for future reference no sensible person looks at statistics like that. Beyond whoever we are currently look at if you had a player who had a rough start to his career and then slowly improved up to the point of now being good his start will drag down his average.

And truth be told KB is not really consistent YoY. Unless you mean consistently up and down.

I remember when KB came on the scene, the cry was: "finally, a real opening batsman unlike Gayle. One who can take the shine off the ball."

In reply to nick2020

Detailed stats in test
Highest ave 39.86 in his 30 th test innings

By year
Best year [77.89] in 2014 followed by 62.45 in 2022 and 55.73 in 2016
So far in 2024 [ 5 tests] ....ave 20

In reply to Narper

I looked. Very up and down career with more downs.

The cupboard bare.

In reply to nick2020

No real consequence for poor performance.....no real challenge from competitors for batting spot OR cappoship.....obviously leads o complacency.....he belly full....not hungry....... all around in dung heap cricket they are satisfied with 20-30 ave....young Louis is the only one in recent times who look hungry for runs in every innings

Shame on Kraigg for keeping out all those 40 sumting batsmen that are pounding down the doors

In reply to nissan

Naah....Lara is in his 50s
He only keeping out Shiv, Gayle and Sarwan
BW Shiv will be 50 on Aug 16

In reply to Narper

I have a sister born on that date.

Wow! - can still remember that little fragile looking fellow that walked out at Bourda for his Test debut.

Suddenly, I feel old.

In reply to nick2020

KB is not my type of player, he is 'up and down 'but he is the best on the lot. The only regional youth that has avg. 40 in regional are Louis and Wickham and it is too early to say that their avg mean anything.

In reply to nissan

Yuh know

Anyone seriously entertaining the notion that Chris Gayle was interested in remaining WI test captain and foregoing T20 millions to represent the West Indies is on some high grade stuff. None of you would have made a different choice than the choice Gayle made. And I wouldn't have either

In reply to Walco

Chris Gayle is not a man who scored back to back hundreds down under against Lee and Johnson one in his penultimate series three or four months before the Windwards Islands hydra fired him?

In reply to voiceofreason I am with you VOR. He does not appear to have Chemistry with any of his opening partners all be it he had good starts with Louis in England. He is also a horrible, demoralizing captain. Hodge took 3 wickets when allowed to bowl with little to no options. Match getting out of control in 2nd innings and you refuse to bowl the young man. However, who can replace him and his experience at present? Is Brandon King willing to play test? Please present options.

In reply to Jumpstart

What's your point? Gayle refused to sign a CWI retainer contract prior to being replaced as captain. Hasn't CWI always required that its captains sign retainer contracts since it started issuing retainers?

Gayle made a decision to put his personal financial welfare first and foremost. There was nothing wrong with that. But the effort to portray him as someone who was exiled from the captaincy by CWI is a joke. Gayle knew that refusing to sign a retainer contract would likely result in his removal as captain.

By the way, CWI had a no-cherrypicking policy back then. Now times have changed and cherrypicking is large and in charge

In reply to Walco

Gayle refused to sign a retainer because of disrespect by the WI board. The board seems to think that cricket is managed like the tourism industry, not understanding that not everyone can become a cricketer in the same way they can become a bartender or a bellhop. They have special skills which demand certain things, like a decent salary and respect. Let’s not forget, as I see bajans are conveniently good at, that the board in 2008,arranged at our of England, two weeks after the English visit would have ended in 2009, without significant player input, despite the fact that the best WIplayers had put themselves in the IPL auction and were expected to be picked( as it is, Gayle, sarwan, bravo and Jerome Taylor got contracts to play in the 2009 IPL). That is extreme disrespect and unlike in previous years, the guys had options so they took them. Cricket is not a plantation economy son

In reply to Jumpstart

My father-in-law worked on a train, then spent over 40 years as a Red Cap, his customer service helped him to send his two daughters to private school, the younger one who I married the first black girl to go to The Bishop Strachan School, her sister when to UBC, Julliard and San Francisco State, my wife went to Simon Frazier, University of Calgary and the UOT for her doctorate.
Their grandfather and Aunt received the Order of Canada and a postage Stamp in their names.
A Bellhop who worked for the hotel I trained at, have three sons who are doctors, not everyone can attend university or post-secondary school, but what I find with people is that they make a difference for their children.

In reply to Jumpstart

Yuh trying too hard her Not Dinas. Gayle refused to sign a retainer because he wanted to be able to make the big money playing T20 cricket. He was fully aware that CWI would have him by the balls with regard to issuing NOCs if he signed a retainer. Gayle even threatened a restraint of trade lawsuit against CWI. But feel free to continue spouting that revisionist history narrative to those gullible enough to believe it.

By the way, where did I say that Gayle did anything wrong? He did what was best for him and his family.

In reply to Walco

You’re indulging in some revisionist history of your own

Yes…..the board at the time required retainer contracts

But what you neglected to mention is that they added to the requirements for the retainer contract. Previously, players just had to be available for WI duty whenever WI had commitments, and there were players that signed retainer contracts on those conditions.

In 2010, the board added that they also needed to be available for their respective territorial teams and ALL training camps during the period of the retainer contract.

Those 2 additions effectively meant if players signed the updated retainer contracts, it curtailed their ability to be available for franchise contracts.

Prior to that, Gayle was signing the retainer contract, making himself available for WI duty.

In reply to imusic

Exactly.

In reply to nissan

there are batsmen who have made way for others who were not better at the time they replace the incumbent.

In reply to imusic

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. But recall that my initial post dealt with the issue of Gayle remaining WI captain after refusing to sign a retainer contract. Seems that Polly and Bravo also refused to sign retainer contracts in 2010 so that they would have more freedom to pursue T20 riches. I'm not blaming them either. I was just taking issue with Jumpy's romanticized notion that Gayle (the same Gayle who said he would not be so sad if test cricket died out) was 100% committed to playing test cricket and leading the West Indies team back to the top of the test cricket heap.

As I recall, Gayle was dropping hints about giving up test cricket and pursuing T20 dollars prior to 2010. Revisionist History Revised

In reply to camos

Name them, the era and how they fared

In reply to nissan

You checked Camos.

In reply to voiceofreason


Did West Indies ever have an opening batsmen that averaged 50+? They were all mediocre opening batsmen.

In reply to voiceofreason

Why is he bad? A case can be made that he is better than Desmond Haynes. He averaged 42 against much inferior attacks than what Kraigg Brathwaite is facing today. In fact West Indies never had an opening batsman who averages 50+. That is pathetic.

In reply to suryaa

Still.

The greatest test side in the history of cricket is the West Indies. From the 70s to 1990 no one was more dominant for longer.

In reply to Walco

Why dem Tits insist on arguing with Gayle's reputed legal advisor