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Period! What makes matters worse is that it is a contact sport. I heard that according to studies men hit 2.6 times harder than women.

That's only half of the argument

Yes..this is worse than mixing weight classes...feel bad for trans ppl....but can't let that affect 50% of population..

In reply to InHindsight

If you think it is that simple then you are not educated enough on the issue.

Imane Khelif and Castor Semenya present biological issues for sports. What you really want to say is "Put men with men and women with women" but you are framing it in a new and convenient way.

Last I checked there is no XX 100 Metre race and XY 100 Metre race. So stop trying to fool anyone.

On another note not raised by you it is funny to see the people with agendas call it a Transgender issue. Imane was born this way.

In reply to pooranian

Imane is not trans.

There is to much catering to these people i dont care how much hormones they take they are not what they identify as biologically and have advantages over other athletes.

In reply to velo

who are these people you speak of? You need to read before you utter nonsense

In reply to nick2020

It is really that simple.

You would notice that they have conveniently moved away from “that’s a trans—she was born a man”. Now they are talking about chromosomes. An issue they obviously know nothing about.

In reply to nick2020

Reports are that only last year Khelif didn't meet the criteria to compete in women's sport (I am hardly into boxing so i am not au fait with the sport's world governing bodies). Since HE was born that way why was he denied that right?

He was born that way, but had to be on hormone treatment to alter his natural state and inspite of male his characteristics and features.

Sorry for being redundant

In reply to InHindsight

I hope I don't end up regretting this post.

I'm in total agreement with you on this one.

We should've stopped the foolishness way back during the Caster Semenya episode.

In reply to Drapsey

If your principles are clear you shouldn't regret that 'simple' matter. The issues are distinct even if aligned to conservative ideals.

In reply to InHindsight

I talking 'bout agreeing with you on something.

In reply to InHindsight

Your post is 100% ignorant. I could attempt but the information is there on biology and her story and who are you to decide she is a he but why bother.

That is a waste of both of our time.

In reply to InHindsight

Its not a conservative issue it is a issue of common sence

In reply to InHindsight
i never heard anybody complain about amelie mauresmo who martina hingis called half a man

In reply to velo

You are right. Apparently that group had common sense ain't?

In reply to nick2020

In reply to nick2020

This right here is the problem some in this good earth have created.

Anyway why must I accept it? Some of us DON'T!

In reply to ray

Voce naõ pode entender de que eu falo que voce precisa fechar a sua boca

In reply to pooranian

Trans should compete against trans otherwise female v female and male v male.

It's that 'simple'

In reply to Drapsey

Are you a rag doll?

The 'bandwagon effect'

Sigh

In reply to pooranian

Once again, she is NOT trans. She was born female (if you are going by genital identification at birth).

Being trans is illegal in Algeria, i.e. she cannot transition in Algeria (using drugs and/or surgery because it is against the law).

A few additional points: this is not her first Olympics. She competed in Tokyo and she did not dominate the field. In fact, she lost before reaching the medal round. The boxing organization that banned her (after receiving complaints from a powerful country) is not recognized by the IOC. Why not?

In reply to JOJO

Yea it's unfair how everyone in the news and accross social media are misrepresenting the situation. I agree that's trans should not compete against women, but by all accounts she was born female with female genitalia but she just happens to have XY chromosomes. This is something else entirely. Many athletes were born with traits that make them somewhat super human but we don't ban them from sports. I do not think she should be either. That Italian girl was just a wuss that was looking for an excuse after she got rocked.

In reply to InHindsight

She IS NOT TRANS. Transgender people are born biologically one gender and .... drum roll .... transition with the help of medicine. Her medical records are private but it is quite likely she is born a female enough to be assigned that at birth but has something else that gives her additional testosterone.

This is the entire problem with your side; you are assertively ignorant and it really is dragging down the entire population. The only way for us as a species to progress is to be intelligent not ignorant.

I will never forget I had a professor that said the most dangerous people on the planet are the idiots who do not know they are idiots. I know I am an idiot so I try to educate myself. The first thing I was sent in my algorithm was "Trans Boxing forces woman to quit in 46 seconds". The difference between myself and yourself is I tried to understand the issue.

Do yourself that favour and learn. You will be better for it.

In reply to 1Desiabnu

Thank You!

In reply to 1Desiabnu



The condition you seem to be describing is known as Swyer Syndrome. A distinct feature of this intersex condition is that neither male nor female sexual organs ever developed unless through hormonal therapy.

Swyer Syndrome individuals have XY chromosomes but female functional genitalia - vulva and are assigned female at birth purely on appearance. This same athlete in question it had been reported to have MALE features. So who do we believe. Added to XY chromosomes the individual was tested and disbarred from competing in the sport last year because of the male dominant hormone testosterone, by a said world governing body for boxing.

The IOC for their own reasons no longer recognises this organization (That for me is suspicious). The statement from the Olympics is that the individual was allowed to compete BECAUSE their passport says female and NOT necessarily because the hormones are female dominant.



Discuss

In reply to nick2020

It isn't that 'simple' bruh

In reply to InHindsight

You have no idea what her medical issue is.

A whole group of people decided that black people were chattel and enslaved them. Good thing they did not just accept that.

You have decided LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ is a problem and when stories like these come around this must be one of those problems.

In reply to InHindsight

You do not even understand she is not trans so you are right; for you it is not that simple. It is really hard.

I should never assume using your brain is simple.

In reply to nick2020

Let's call a truce. I dislike the pettiness the debates have descended to. The subject of the athlete seem interesting. How about that?

In reply to InHindsight

No I will just likely avoid your posts.

You are an ignorant bigot. There is no nice way to put it.

Prove me wrong. Where did you get that information from? The part about hormone treatment to alter her natural state?

In standardized tests people with learning disabilities are given concessions like extra time to make up for the disadvantage. So you need to qualify to get granted this concession. Same goes for the special olympics. Serena was given a medical exemption allowing her to use a drug otherwise banned to address a medical need. Same was for Lance Armstrong being a cancer survivor. Imane was determined by some sports body some time ago to not qualify to be a female boxer.

All we know is Imanes biology is not as binary as male/female from a sports/testosterone perspective. For you to come to the conclusion that she is a he says the world about you. There is no credible information that Imane is a male. So why did you decide that is the case?

Why? Can you answer that? Do a Google Search on "Is imane a man?" That is a slanted search (which you should never do) but still do it and tell me what you find.

So again for you to come to that conclusion you could only be an ignorant bigot. They are ignorant bigots in the world and some of us are those. It wont stop you from living and pursuing a life of happiness.

Edit

Trump is an ignorant bigot. And he has had quite the life.

In reply to InHindsight

Good to see that you rushed to read something. But you’re so ignorant and so caught up in the right wing disinformation loop that you do not even realize that you are coming around to what knowledgeable, sincere people have been saying along…

Gender-related issues are not simple and straightforward. Gender is not binary. It is more complicated that what you learned in high school. You cannot learn about it from priests and pastors.



Reports from where? Isn’t it interesting that the IOC…which recognizes dozens of other well-regarded international sports bodies…does not recognize this one? So the problem is with the IOC and not the body that has failed to specify the nature of the tests that it performed?

So you are prepared to criticize the IOC in order to justify your bigoted, ignorant POV.

In reply to nick2020

You are so silly


I deduced. I react to the information presented. As it unfolds l present my arguments. Nothing i said before is contradictory. Hence i titled my thread as such.

Anyone born with Swyers Syndrome cannot be known as male nor female but on physical features are assigned as female.

The reports by the world governing body for boxing (I don't recall which, and don't care to go back and find out) disbarred the individual from competing because of male features. Therefore since neither is dominant unless hormonal therapy it is natural to assume the individual (oh Lord ) to be male given dominant male features. Our other friend (sorry I am using my phone right now) introduced another set of information to which I responded by saying that he/she is describing what seemingly is Swyer Syndrome.

The fact remains in this case the dominant sex hormone will be crucial to the whole discussion.

In reply to JOJO

I will not rush to judgment nor blindly make claims as some of you left wing lackeys.

Can you imagine I have you all to contend with all at once? Why do you believe I only now got acquainted with that condition?

I am glad I caused you to go do some research though.

One thing is common with all you lefties. The disingenuity and the lack of sincerity and humility

In reply to InHindsight

No dumbass—I constantly seek knowledge. I read. I try to get information from primary sources…not from talk radio or YouTube videos made by people with absolutely no background in the multiple subjects that they opine on.

In reply to JOJO

My point exactly

I get you agitated with unrefutable facts and my God given view of everything

In reply to InHindsight

It is NOT that simple

You don’t find it funny that all the simpletons weighing in on the issue with all these great simple ideas just not getting through to the decision makers?

Armchair fans and America populist politicians
Great bedfellows

In reply to InHindsight

Again I ask you WHERE do you read your information?

I have never seen you admit to where you are getting your information from. Why? Come tell us where do you see/hear anything you claimed in this thread. Her medical records are private.

In reply to InHindsight

You did exactly this. You have a problem with this whole war on gender so this became another moment for you.

In reply to nick2020

My saying, "it's not that simple" I was mimicking you bruh.

You're to slow to pick that up are you?

I never said anything was hard either.. Don't speak for me

In reply to InHindsight

Good stuff.

Now share with us where you read or heard that she took hormone treatment to alter her natural state.

In reply to nick2020

You're looking for me to concede ground to you? Didn't you read my posts?

Are you saying the individual never took hormonal therapy? That is a moot point.

In reply to InHindsight

No I am not looking for anything beyond asking where you got your information from.

In reply to nick2020

Read my posts carefully

In reply to InHindsight

So none of us really have answers to what the boxer really is but is it true that the Algerian boxer failed (2) gender tests? The IBA conducted the tests and the boxer failed them twice. The IOC (ruling boxing body) overturned or just never recognized those tests and instead said "whatever is on her paperwork from birth and her passport is what she is" and left it like that.

So even though she was deemed XY, she is allowed to fight with XX females. Maybe the so-called medical people on here, Halliwell and others, can for once let us know if biological males usually have significantly higher punching power, speed (and bone density) than their XX counterparts? Just asking. Let the blows come (no pun intended).

In reply to DukeStreet

Source?

In the immortal words of sudden:

wuh loss

Yea no agenda there whatsoever.

In reply to nick2020

HERE

HERE

And probably many other sources all available just by lifting your fingers.

Unfortunately, the IBA is now discredited from Olympic proceedings since 2019, even though the gender test was done after the IBA Olympic ban.

You just have to do your due diligence with the information available.

She was born a woman, has female body parts, has a womb, can have a baby and she is not a female?????

What am I missing?

Link

In reply to Master_Blaster

Has it been determined she can actually have a baby??? Credible source please.

Many DSD XY people look 100% female, have vaginas but on the inside their ovarian tubes are malformed, uterus is non-functioning and some even have interior testes. It's very fascinating and rare but they are out there.

In reply to Master_Blaster

This woman was born and listed as female and has female body parts but she's genetically male

In reply to DukeStreet

Many females cannot have babies for whatever reason...if someone is born with a penis what does it make them..born with a vagina what does it make them?

If we start granulizing the sexes beyond the organs we were born with them we are going to a very dark place because where does it end after going down that rabbit hole

In reply to Master_Blaster

A punch.

If you are a female by conservative standards you should be tested by a punch bag. If punch strength registers beyond the average female punch reactive bionics then the tested female is not female

In reply to sudden

In other news, Mike Tyson said he wants to fight that same Algerian boxer who had previously said he/she would fight "anyone". Mikey still waiting for an answer. Mikey also said he will donate all proceeds to disadvantaged women.

In reply to DukeStreet

I would pay any money to see you fight her

In reply to sudden

How about track and field..tennis.. judo . Etc?

In reply to Master_Blaster

I think the DukeStreet has a test for those

In reply to sudden

Not me bro. She has a better chance against you.

In reply to DukeStreet

That is why I am on her side in this matter

In reply to sudden

I was giving Dukestreet as much rope as he could find.

In reply to sudden

She can probably knock you out in the 1st round within 10 seconds.

In reply to nick2020

I am not into ropes bro. That's you and Sudden.

In reply to DukeStreet

Where in your first link ndtv.com does it say she failed a gender test?
Where in your second link apnews does it say she failed a gender test?

In reply to DukeStreet

Any of my 4 wives could do that

In reply to DukeStreet

You clearly look to be. Give me a quote from your sources where it says she failed a gender test. Here is the quote from said IBA



It really says a lot that you believe it was a gender test.

In reply to sudden

The day the Lord comes for his world there will be some devastated Christians who will be left behind. I have long accepted I will be left behind.

I suspect you being a DLP paralegal with multiple divorces will be keeping me company.

In reply to nick2020

I am sure a lot of those who believe they are going to heaven will be surprise to see me

But I won’t be in their reality they will be in mine

See you there

How about Powen

In reply to nick2020

MORE HERE

It really says a lot if you don't believe they said she failed a gender eligibility test.

In reply to DukeStreet

Who is their source?

So the IBA themselves did not say what the test was yet The Independent knows? Yea because The Media is infallible? I gave you the IBA's official statement on the matter why are we still here?

Because you want to believe she failed a gender eligibility test? Or you do not want to admit you are wrong?

In reply to DukeStreet

The IOC revoked the Olympic status of the IBA for, among other things, corruption and bias in referring and judging. Based on that, you should recognize why people do not trust this “confidential test” that the IBA performed (they have not revealed the nature of the test or the results).

In reply to JOJO

It would be good if you cite your sources

In reply to InHindsight

While you don't cite yours?

Lord come for your world

In reply to InHindsight

Okay, I’ll bite:

IOC statement in 2023. The link to the report is in the second para.

In reply to JOJO

And you trust the IOC? One of the most corrupt organizations around? LOL. You must have fallen out your mother's arm at birth. The scandals and coverups they have committed over the years would take up pages to list.

In reply to DukeStreet

Oh! So now you will attack the IOC! What’s next? You do not trust the Algerian govt for saying that she is female…or the doctors that said she was female at birth?

Oh I know what happened! Perhaps the IOC did not allow her to win gold in Tokyo (yes, she competed in Tokyo) because they thought that a win at the Paris “woke” Olympics would have had a greater global effect!

In reply to JOJO

I'm just saying don't believe everything you read. Did you not learn this while growing up? You take everything the IOC says as Gospel? You think what they say is 100%? Come on, bro. Think constructively.

In reply to DukeStreet

We should believe the things you read

In reply to DukeStreet

Dude you’re being ridiculous. When faced with the facts that conflict with your opinion, you choose to disregard the facts.

I am not here to try to win arguments by any means. So carry on.

In reply to JOJO

You learned a valuable lesson.

Do not believe anything.
Until Dukestreet links ndtv and the independent.

Then you can believe.

In reply to JOJO

On a serious note I can see why we are in such a crisis in this information age.

I worry that people aren't looking for enlightenment but justification.

Right-wing brain rot


Only the brain dead right wing would think somebody from Algeria is trans

Somebody need to take the internet from yall, u not old enough

In reply to nick2020

Typical. I knew someone of your ilk would cherry pick a source and try to lower it down to the same level you are wallowing in. Care to try something different? I know you can do better!! Stop parroting others on here. It's shallow dude.

In reply to DukeStreet

Still fighting Dukes?

You need to be vaccinated and you may see the darkness

In reply to sudden

Dukestreet is trolling us right?

In reply to nick2020

Nope.

since Covid he has become a flat earther, so to speak

In reply to sudden

I'll vaccinate if you show us your fully vaccinated arm. Don't be shy now.

In reply to sudden

A flat earther? You mean all dem jab mess up you head? It used to be you get juk on de bench in BDos, but now I got to believe you overdose on the jabs, sir.

Link

The IOC should run their own tests and if they confirm that Lin and/or Khelif have XY chromosomes, one or both should be disqualified and stripped of their medals.

Any disagreement?

In reply to KTom

This group of individuals are special born with XY chromosomes but with the female genitalia. But this doesn't automatically make them female. Then it becomes a matter of the dominant hormones and the question of hormone therapy.

If testosterone the dominant hormone the athlete has an unfair advantage. I am just expressing how I see it

In reply to KTom

Hear me out.

The reason I would see them not doing that is then you could see them having to do it for all participants.

You have to understand we strike a balance of progress and customs. There is a good discussion to be had here once we try to be open-minded. We use classifications that are socially convenient but scientifically insufficient (race for example). You can argue Olympics should move away from gender and make the events differentiated by chromosomes. But currently we do not assign gender in our societies by chromosome tests and we really are not ready for that in my opinion.

If you were born looking like a female, had non-working female genitalia but were male by chromosomes what gender would you want to be assigned? Scientifically accurate but socially inaccurate?

We will be forced to have a serious, intelligent debate about the issue which I welcome but because we are such a stupid species I worry we will not.

And since there is no fun doing that here I will end with my dig:

It is fascinating the people who believe a man named Noah filled a boat with a bunch of animals and sailed the seas like Sinbad want to discuss genetics.

In reply to nick2020

I am not trying to engage in debate and rancor. I am only trying to point out something:

Do you realize the same things you accuse Trump of being ( others candidates are just as culpable but he is most highlighted), you are red hand guilty?

I've come to expect from you a constant barrage of condescending adjectives to describe other humans. Like Trump you clean it up and your message will be less diluted

In reply to InHindsight

We are all stupid.
But some are more stupid than others.

In reply to KTom

Some people are born with intersex conditions and if competing as female may have an unfair advantage over unambiguous females. Typically, chromosomes are sufficient
to determine one's gender.

In ambiguous cases, sex verification is scientifically determined based on visual inspection, physical examination, chromosomes testing and checking testosterone levels

Did the IOC carry out the critical testosterone test? Apparently not

In reply to nick2020

The irony here is that the same folks who were claiming “gender is simple”; “there are only two genders”; “gender is what you are assigned at birth”—are the same people who now want to look at chromosomes and all kinds of stuff to determine gender (and experts will also tell you that chromosomal makeup is not sufficient). These are some of the same people who were criticizing Justice Jackson when she responded that she was not a biologist and will not present a definition of a woman.

In reply to JOJO

You're speaking to the one who simplified everything.

And I responded in similar fashion to jeer. Sorry you didn't get that.

In reply to InHindsight

You claimed Imane is a man who must have gotten hormone therapy. Still stand by that?

In reply to nick2020

I stand by everything I posted.

In reply to JOJO

Thank you for pointing that out

It is interesting indeed!!!

That’s the problem with armchair geneticists

In reply to nick2020

Why? Reasonable suspicion if sufficient. The IOC and other sports bodies set their own rules, by which competitors must abide. But if you insist on blanket testing, wouldn't intersex athletes with typically male testosterone levels be flagged up and identified during normal blood/urine testing?



It's not a case of what the individual wants. If a sporting body divides competition along the lines of sex, age, weight, nationality, etc., competitiors should adhere to those rules, however arbitrary. The simple division of humans into male and female seems entirely reasonable, despite some blurring around the edges. I don't believe that the rare phenomenion of intersexuality undermines the physical reality of sexual difference; on the contrary, it underscores it.



In that spirit, what's your position on transgender athletes, aside from intersexuality? If a man decides he wants to compete in female sports, should (s)he be free to do so?

In reply to KTom

I explained the issue. Society doesn't determine gender by chromosome testing. So on very important documents like a birth certificate you are determined to be a boy or girl based on a visual inspection.

As to Olympics and transgenders I think my opinion is too long-winded for here. I think people can feel left out but as of right now I do not think the solution is to have men who transitioned to being a woman to compete against women who were born women or vice versa.

More work is needed.

In reply to nick2020

But why should sports bodies be obligated to perpetuate mistaken identifications?



The argument is that transgender women are prone to have a physical advantage over actual women by 1) their having been through male puberty and 2) having higher levels of testosterone. What work will affect that underlying reality?

In reply to KTom

Agreed. But how does the transgender argument apply to the current situation of individuals who are not transgender?



Where is the mistaken identity?

In reply to nick2020

So after all your chest beating they were male after all?! I Don't want to say I was right all long

Sigh.

In reply to InHindsight

What are u talking about?