Message Board Archives
The Fall Of The WI Empire
spider
2024-12-17 06:38:56
Those who follow West Indies cricket closely know that the series defeat in 1995 was more than just a temporary setback. It had been clear for some time that the team was in decline. Curtly Ambrose and Courtney Walsh were still around, as skilful and as formidable as ever, and Brian Lara was the best batter around. But the loss of Gordon Greenidge, Desmond Haynes, Jeffrey Dujon, Malcolm Marshall and others seriously reduced the capacity of the great side and the replacements were never going to be of similar pedigree.
Things went from bad to worse and the West Indies, save for some success in the Twenty20 version of the sport, has been going through a period of prolonged mediocrity. Those of us who were fans of the popular TV series Game Of Thrones would be familiar with their reality of winter. Winter in Westeros (the fictional place in which the series is set) is not just winter as we know it. It is a time of dread, a time of darkness and destruction all round. With winter also comes the possibility of another “long night”, a particularly harsh winter that lasted more than a generation, “when children were born, lived and died, all in darkness …when kings froze in their castles, same as the shepherds in their huts”.
Jamaica Observer
Prako
2024-12-17 12:56:48
In reply to spider
Between 1995 and 2000 WI still had a decent team. The challenge was the Opening spot with Sherwin Campbell the only steady face with going in and coming outs such as Stuart Williams, Philo Wallace, Clayton Lambert
1.
2.
3. Lara
4. Adams
5. Hooper
6. Chanderpaul
7. Ridley Jacobs
8. Ambrose
9. Winston Benjamin
10.Kenneth Benjamin
11.Walsh
Squad Players
Sherwin Campbell
Mervyn Dillon
Nixon McClean
Franklyn Rose
Jumpstart
2024-12-17 13:17:21
In reply to spider
west indies was falling long before that. by by 1988, it should have been apparent that at least one team, Pakistan, was catching up or had caught up to us. Rally round the west indies was released that year. that was the time to start consolidating and preparing the next generation of players. It was always likely that the WI would go through period of decline because viv and co were irreplaceable. WI didn't even find a decent replacement for Kallicharran because he was irreplaceable as well. but 30 years of perpetual decline indicates something structurally wrong with our cricket
Drapsey
2024-12-17 13:42:17
In reply to Prako
Between 1995 and 2000 WI still had a decent team. The challenge was the Opening spot with Sherwin Campbell the only steady face with going in and coming outs such as Stuart Williams, Philo Wallace, Clayton Lambert
And then the absurdity of "The Tail Wagging the Dog" took over.
Jumpstart
2024-12-17 14:07:54
In reply to Prako
both hooper and chanderpaul averaged in the 30s. so did campbell. williams and wallace averaged in the early 20s. and lambert averaged 31 but only played 5 tests. the only difference with the WI then and now was that you had two people in the 90s averaging over 40. lara averaged close to 60 from 95-97 and adams averaged over 40. the rest of the team was lal. I'll post a quote from lara's statements prior to the tour of sa in 98, prior to the scandal too.
I expect a series full of results . . . and I think the better batting team will win the series"
"I've seen a lot of South Africa during the summer against England and they are a team that's beatable . . .Australia has been to South Africa and beat them and . . . I hope the aim of our every individual is to come out on top, not only individually, but as a team."
"The South African new ball pair of Allan Donald and Shaun Pollock have shown they are world-class but if the West Indies batting can stand up to such an attack and the West Indies bowlers can have a good time in South Africa, we can win the series."
"Our batting, I must say, leaves a lot to be desired. There are some players who seem to be around for a very long time and (are) not pulling their weight."
you know that comment in bold type could only refer to one batsman. so no the team wasn't good. we had three great players and one very good player in jimmy adams.
https://anansiweb.tripod.com/brianlara.htm
chanderpaul was frequently injured and unfortunately subject to the inconcistencies of selectors. how he wasn't in that 99 series vs aus is beyond me because he had been injury free after the 2nd test of that series. and we all know lara was given a team and told to captain them or don't captain at all
PalsofMine
2024-12-17 15:52:09
In reply to Jumpstart
I think that we would very much appreciate a middle order of Lara, Chanders, Adams and Hooper right now. All of them average maybe 10 points each more than our current middle order.
Jumpstart
2024-12-17 16:03:46
In reply to PalsofMine
i agree. but don't say the side was decent. you check the middle orders of corresponding teams throughout that five year period and you'll see what im talking about. india had tendulkar, azharuddin and dravid, who was their highest run getter in the 96 SA series in south africa. australia had the waughs, damien martyn, and ponting. Pakistan had yosuf yohanna, inzi and saeed anwar. Sri lanka had jayasuriya, athupatttu, hashan tilikaratne, arvinda de silva and ranatunga. england was probably the only equivalent and by 1999, they were the worst ranked icc side in tests, yes even worse than zimbabwe. South africa had culinanan, gary kirsten, kallis. we had a terrible batting lineup compared to that
Emir
2024-12-18 11:57:32
In reply to Jumpstart
With respect to our middle order, Hooper was a woeful underperformer, so he was hardly any help to Lara and Shiv was still developing and he was never a match winner, in contrast to other middle order match winners in the opposition teams.
WI decline started while we still on top- it takes a while for results to down-trend.
The world economic order was changing and the WICBC simply was an old Afro-Saxon unqualified bunch of misfits who simply wasn't up to par to lead us into the new era.
It was never about players not being good enough. All the malaise of WI cricket has to do with the lack of leadership for all levels- even today- our players are as good as or better than....
Leadership is the problem and breaking up WI won't solve it- just take a look at the regional boards and how they are clueless about what needs to be done or how to do it.
Seechy
2024-12-18 12:27:57
In reply to PalsofMine
Bro, Lara and Chanders average at least 30 runs more than our test number 3. Then you have guys like Sarwan, Adams, and Hooper averaging 10 to 15 runs higher than our numbers 4 and 5. That's how great our middle order was. Then we had a wicket keeper averaging 4-5 runs higher than our current wicket keeper. That all helped.
Jumpstart
2024-12-18 15:08:53
In reply to Emir
With respect to our middle order, Hooper was a woeful underperformer, so he was hardly any help to Lara and Shiv was still developing and he was never a match winner, in contrast to other middle order match winners in the opposition teams
hooper used to upset me big time. Whereas tiger could set his stall out and through bloody-mindedness and shear badmind, could sit down and provide the perfect foil for the stroke makers like lara, sarwan and gayle, hooper could not do that. maybe because hooper was the same type of player like lara, sarwan and gayle and you put two strokemakers together, inevitably they'll compete instead of building a partnership. the difference though is that there are big partnerships between gayle and sarwan, there are big partnerships between sarwan and lara, there are big partnerships between lara and gayle. i don't think there are many big partnerships between lara and hooper.
I know in lara's books, he thinks hooper wasn't confident enough in his ability. I do know that when Hooper was at Kent CCC, the batting coach there said he used a bat that was too short and that is wy he got caught at mid off or long on.
Prako
2024-12-18 15:10:54
In reply to Jumpstart
And Hoops look like if he couldn't run out Lara, he would pop an easy catch to mid off 
Jumpstart
2024-12-18 15:11:29
In reply to Prako
Prako
2024-12-18 15:19:15
In reply to Jumpstart
In all seriousness, I heard this from one of my uncle who was an umpire in the 80s and 90s with the then WICB.
Hooper was identified as the next great batting star coming out of the late 80s as we were looking at the upcoming retirements of Viv, Greenidge and Haynes. However, he got usurped by Lara. That put a mental block on Carl - it now became a "Me vs you" thing for Carl (Lara could care less). Rather than being a 2nd foil, Carl wanted to be the man - while he had the potential, along with a better all round game as a bowler and fielder, that attempt to try to out-bat Lara was something he couldn't accomplish and it seemed he "gave up."
The 375 and 501* in 1994 pushed Lara to a different level of Stardom that Carl couldn't come close to achieving. Carl still had the potential to be very good but ultimately that talent petered out to a 30-something averaging batsman.
Jumpstart
2024-12-18 15:24:32
In reply to Prako
Carl Hooper, and i have heard multiple people, both inside and outside the WI say this, is the most talented batsman they've ever seen. how he avarages only 36 is crminal. dude should be averaging 80. i never saw hooper struggle against a bowler. lara struggled against mcgrath and flintoff for a time. viv had issues with lillee. hooper struggled against nobody, not one bowler
Prako
2024-12-18 17:28:44
In reply to Jumpstart
You are right. Carl was always so calm when he came to the crease. Silky smooth feet (he could have patented that drive back past the bowler!) and the best wrists in the game. He would cruise to 30 and then all of a sudden make such a silly shot to get out.
And if you ever needed a slip fielder, that would be the man. His offspin bowling wasn't anything special but it seems as if his confidence allowed him to get wickets and be useful in ODIs when the skipper needed a few overs to change things around.
Jumpstart
2024-12-18 17:37:34
In reply to Prako
yeah. i saw some hights of him treat wasim akram like a bad schoolchild at the ARG. wa said at one point he got really mad and came around the wicket to bounce him. carl just calmly hooked the ball into orbit. the hook itself is a violent, aggressive shot. but carl made it look like a caress. dude was something out of this world
