Kallis better than Sobers?

In reply to imusic
homes....all you're looking at is average, runs scored, wickets taken. you sound a lot like those new economists who are great at math, borderline illiterate and frequently get things wrong due to a total lack of qualitative data and the total absence of historical context. Fact is kallis sucked against the australia team of 1995-2007. 3 hundreds in ten years and mcgrath wasn't even there for third one.If i really wanted to be critical, i could argue that Jason Gillespie who was a crictical piece of that australian attack of the 90s and 2000s wasn't there for kallis' first hundred at the MCG, but Kasprowicz, who to me was mediocre, was there in his place. he had almost no impact on those series because australia took south africa to the cleaners, despite having hall of famers like donald and pollock in their lineup. garry scored 430 runs in the 1960/61 australia series down under in what many view as the greatest series of all time. again against the best team of his time. kallis best aggregate in a series is versus an attack comprised of vasbert drakes, adam sanford, merv dillon and corey collymore. Jacques Kallis was not an impactful cricketer. His SA teams were pounded by Australia. Teams like the WI and India that were not as gifted during 95-2007 had at least one series versus that Australian side where they won or did not lose because of the impact of their best player(s). Kallis has none of that

In reply to hubert

Sadly there is very little footage on YouTube with him. Mostly a few minutes highlights. Can't really get to judge someone off of that.

I envy you guys, at least yall got to witness a world class WI team that trashed everyone... people my age just witnessing licks after licks for WI

In reply to Jumpstart

Dude how old are you? Did you see Sobers play live?

In reply to Jumpstart

See my original post on this topic. I’m West Indian.

No more needs to be sald

It is foolhardy to say the man who retired with
The highest individual test score
Most test runs
Most catches?
Top ten wkts and batting avg
Is not as good as another without those credentials
It is like failing a guy for an exam he was absent for
Rational minds will realize had Sobers played as many tests and some vs teams like early days Bang and Zim his numbers would eclipsed Kallis'
Stats, lies and dawned lies

In reply to anthonyp

I didn’t see sobers play. I did see kallis play and I have seen virtually every series between South Africa and Australia since 2001 and also saw the SA/Aus series of 97/98 on video. Kallis, as I said before struggles against the best opponents of his era. He did not influence the matches against them to carry SA towards a positive result. Of the four great batsmen of the 90s, he is the only one to have not done that. Tendulkar had his 98 series in India. Lara had his magnum opus in 1999. Ponying and Waugh were Aussies so they don’t count. Kallis has nothing resembling that versus the great Australia team of 95-2007. You think it’s by chance that South Africa’s first series win over Australia came the year after Warne, McGrath and co retired? This is what I mean by qualitative statistics.

Now compare that to Gary Sobers. Sobers dominated 3 eras of cricket. The 50s with Ray Lindwall, the 60s with Fred Trueman and the early 70s as an old man against the father of the modern fast bowler, Dennis Lillee. I have seen that innings in its entirety and I know Jacques Kallis could not bat like that against that sort of bowling. He might be able to score a hundred, but he would never be entertaining or attacking, his career SR of 45 is proof of that. Bratty Richard’s or Graham Pollock certainly, but not Kallis.

As I said as well, Sobers’ influenced the series he played against the best team of his day. It is no coincidence that Sobers’ scored a hundred in the tied test and the one of the two test matches West Indies won on that tour. It’s a simple metric. If Brian Lara had not scored 7 hundreds against that same team between (95-2007), nobody would have him in the discussion as the greatest batsman of the post 80s generation. Ditto with Tendulkar, who has 5 hundreds against that side. If Imran khan had only bullied India , England and New Zealand and had not stood up to and had enormous success against the West Indies, arguably the greatest test side ever assembled , he would not have been regarded as the greatest all rounder of the 1980s as he is today. Kallis is a great player no doubt, but there are levels of greatness

In reply to Brerzerk

You didn’t see who Kallis best series is against: vasbert drakes, Dillon, nagamootoo and Adam Sanford, who boycott said couldn’t get his grandmother out. Kallis is great but there are levels to greatness. And sobers is a few levels above him

We really don’t have to diminish Kallis to elevate Sobers

Everyone will have their preferences and biases.

In reply to anthonyp

In reply to allan

Do the stats really say that Kallis is better than Sobers?

Sobers batting average 57.78
Sobers bowling average 34.03
Difference = +23.75

Kallis batting average 55.37
Kallis bowling average 32.65
Difference = +22.72

So, statistically, Sobers edges it.

In truth, they're both great allrounders. Let's just celebrate that fact.

In reply to mikesiva

Saw the presentation during lunchtime of the world test championship..
The presenter leaning towards this conclusion
It’s a genuine question to hear what others think?

While many feared the WI fast bowlers during the Roberts, Holding, Garner, Croft and Marshall era. I would dare say Sobers would give them a run for their money without a helmet at that. Growing up within walking distance of Kensington Oval, I got a chance to watch lots of test matches from the late 60's up till the early 2000's when I decided it was a waste if time.

Fast bowling or batting great spinners, top order or lower order marshalling the tail enders. Sobers could have scored even more runs hut he was a selfless person.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/west-indies-tour-of-india-1966-67-61937/india-vs-west-indies-3rd-test-62998/full-scorecard

Gary Sobers was the best batsman and the best overall cricketer I have seen. Still this is just my opinion.
Barry Richards didn't get much test cricket if any but he was the only batsman I would say came closes to Sobers.

Kallis is no Barry Richards as a batsman

Love Lara but the WI pace attack listed above would give him a through work over while.

People would be on roofs, trees or where ever just to get the chance to see Sobers play cricket the world over.

In reply to Jumpstart

I don't know what you are about on what I stated. Saying someone changed cricket too
is too broad a term. I would not lay that claim to Sobers above Worrell.
But the impact of the game as a player is different and that is where Sobers'
supremacy stands.
There are few that changed the game. Bradman's batsmanship and tough minded winning mentality that he
brought to the staid nature of the game ,did. And even Warne who rescued
the art of leg spin bowling which went comatose for a long time, has solid claims to Change
even if he only resurrected a lost craft.
Sobers was very special but there is no part of the game he Changed as far as I am concerned.
I would not degrade Kailis' achievements one bit.
The major difference between Sobers and Kallis, is that Sobie excelled against tougher competition at Test and FC level
when domestic FC competition was a very high quality in England, Australia and WI and even in Rest of the World
'Tests'. There was never and perhaps never will be another as versatile a cricketer as Sobers and because of that he was
a phenomenon.. But I don't grasp where he changed the game. He just played it better than any other allrounder and was perhaps the
greatest left hand batter ever in my estimation as he played some of the finest innings ,2 of which were rated as the best played
in Australia..132 in the tied Test at Brisbane and his 270 odd for World XI at MCG in 71-72 against Lillee and co at 35 years old
and which was rated best in Australia by Bradman ; his 160 odd at Lord's in 1966 is in his own view was his best but nothing could
beat his hundred on a cracked up Sabina Park in 1968 in my view. That was not a pitch after day one.
Kallis it is true hardly had a signature outstanding knocks for the most part but he achieved against whom he played and that was
not fault of his.That his teammates did not excel as he did against same opponents is no fault of his either.He was just better
than those with who he played with and against and the record book with stats is not wrong.It should be respected.

In reply to seaegg99

well lara's second fc innings was 90 versus marshall, who was the#1 ranked bowler in the world, and garner, who had just retired but i know what you mean. even viv struggled against the barbados team of the 70s and 80s.

In reply to Jumpstart

GG was a pretty good batsman but he was a student to Barry Richards.

In reply to seaegg99

yess.......barry and viv were masterful in WSC. Chappell too but he had weaknesses, which the WI pacemen discovered during the wsc schism.

Yawn with all these Kallis vs Sobers threads. The next one will be resurrected by WestDem!!!

There is Sobers....plenty of space then the rest..

better comparisons would be Kallis vs Imran vs Beefy vs Hadlee vs Kapil Dev.

In reply to Jumpstart


After twenty years of huffing and puffing Vivian average v Bim 70's/80's apocalypse assassins was 20

In reply to Castled

exactly...with one hundred i believe in close to two decades