Is Jason Holder WI best allrounder since Sobers?

In reply to imusic

Check his stats as a bowler. 118 wickets. Economy rate of 4. I watched some tapes of him being a very effective spinner that Lloyd turned to often. I think you judging without studying.

The test number indicates that Holder is the better allrounder, and I think the posters were referring to test cricket since Sobers never really played white ball cricket.

In reply to methodic


I saw most of those matches. I know what I saw.

Not even Viv would put himself in the category of Bravo and Holder. Even Hooper was essentially the same as Viv.....except he bowled A LOT more. If you bowl that much...you bound to take some wickets....the equivalent of a broken clock telling the correct time.

You believe what you want. Your prerogative.

In reply to tc1


Please expand on this.

What numbers specifically indicate that Holder is better?

As a matter of fact an argument can be made for Richards being out best odi spinner

In reply to imusic

Holder batting avg is 29.83 Vs Bravo 31.42 , Bravo is better by 1.59 which is dead even, however Holder bowling is 31.42 to Bravo's 39.83 which is clearing 9.44 points better than Bravo.

Lastly , the most important category to Yardies, Tits and Muddies, he is Holly wood material.

I must note that I have never seen any distasteful comment from you on matter.

In reply to methodic


lol. Ok

In reply to tc1


holder's numbers are inflated by the fact that he's good against mediocre(like sri lanka, pakistan and hingland) and outright toots sides(bangladesh). holder's average against australia is 88 as a bowler, and this is a dude who was first selected not as an allrounder but as a fast medium bowler who moved the ball. against nz it is 99. it is 30 versus the south africans. Bravo's bowling average against australia is 30 with a five wsicket haul to boot and two centuriees(against warne, mcgrath and lee no less)

In reply to imusic

Agreed!
Another wasted talent was Richard “Germs” Austin the extraordinary all rounder from Jamaica .

In reply to Massy


Danny Germs had SERIOUS POTENTIAL. Another tragic story in WI cricket.

A regional allrounder who I felt was unlucky not to have been selected for WI was Norbert Phillip. In his prime, was one of the best we had at the time……but that time coincided with the rise of Lloyd’s team and once on Lloyd’s team, the hardest thing to do was to get off of it.

Which somehow, Faoud Bacchus managed to do. Once Desmond Haynes came on the scene, that was it for Bacchus……despite his talent.

In reply to imusic


bacchus didn't like pace bowling which was weird in the context of batsmanship from guyana. thomson had him in all manner of trouble on the 81/82 visit to australia. i say this because lloyd, basil butcher, kali, rohan kanhai, hooper, sarwan and chanders were either very good at playing fast bowling(in sarwan and tiger's case) or exceptional at playing it(for the others and yes even hooper)

In reply to Jumpstart


Jeff Thomson had EVERYBODY in trouble bruh.

Wrong bowler to use as an example.

On that 75/76 your to Oz, men REFUSED TO OPEN THE BATTING!!

So much so that a rookie Viv Richards, Deryck Murray and Bernard Julien ended up opening the batting for WI in that series to partner Fredericks.

Greenidge flat out HID that series.

Ask dem Bajans about that afternoon in Bim when Thommo had Desmond Haynes refusing to take singles because it meant he had to take strike against Thommo. That was the tour when Oz sent a replacement team.

Viv tried but got hit, and hit streaky fours off the edge behind the wicket before getting out. Kalli, Greenidge etc all RAN that afternoon.

In reply to imusic


i agree....81/82 thomson was not the 75 or even the 78 edition. and the dude keeping australia in the series in 81/82 was the evergreen lillee, not thommo. thommo's best figures in the series were 4/112

In reply to Jumpstart

the great Bravo never played against Pak,,SLand Bangladesh, but Lara did who was a least 10 y. older.
Therefore I will not respond to your post which is full of misfacts.

In reply to tc1

he played against the sri lanka team of sangakara, jayawardene, jayasuriya, dilshan............not chandimal and angelo matthews.

In reply to Jumpstart

So you want Jason to bring back those guys to play against.
You play against the opponent in front of you.

In reply to tc1

im saying that sri lanka team was exceptional......and the stats bear it out....two world cup finals, two wt20 finals and a t20 world cup, a series win in england, and especially the batting was out of the very top draw. you play what is in front of you but you cant compare chandimal and matthews to sanga, jayawardene, dilshan and sanath

btw....big jase the batsman ever score a hundred versus australia......he ever score a hundred versus SA? HOLDER WAS GOOD AGAINST TOOTS AND MEDIOCRE TEAMS.it is those falsehoods you and your ilk peddle that had jason batting above da silva in the test series last year, culminating in his duck at providence to leave WI 100-6 chasing 263. that we got within 40 runs of the target was down to Da silva and motie and those losers in the top order had two days to make theruns

In reply to Jumpstart

much good that did Silva! Lol

In reply to imusic

What puzzles me is why Jason Holder is continually called a batting all rounder. Most reasonable people looking at him would conclude he is a better bowler than he is a batsman. The stats would clearly illustrate this. His batting average is a below-par 29 while his bowling average is a respectable 30. Ben Stokes is a batting all rounder. Jason Holder is a bowling all rounder.

In reply to PalsofMine

Nah never. Da Silva is the best player of pace bowling in the WI. By that time, captains traditionally are bringing in spinners and ironically I believe it’s a spinner he got dismissed by in that innings. He’s bad against spin.

In reply to Fivestar

Holder has always been a bowling allrounder. I think he did score a hundred vs zim, would have been dowrich’s first hundred when he said he enjoyed for preferred batting to bowling i believe. Since then people have been anointing him a bowling allrounder

In reply to Fivestar

Then Bravo is not an allrounder.

Let’s start over…

If Sobers never had batting abilities he would’ve made the bowling team
If Sobers never had bowling abilities he would’ve still been a frontline batsman.

His fielding is a bonus.

How much are we lowering standards to nominate a modern day allrounder?

Whoever came up with ‘Bits and pieces’ was on point.

In reply to tc1

dwayne bravo until very recently had the most wickets for any t20 bowler

In reply to Raskil



Best Test bowlers between Jan 1961 and Dec 1968 (Qual: 100 wickets)
Bowler Tests Wickets Average Strike rate 5WI/ 10WM
Fred Trueman 26 133 21.67 49.4 10/ 3
Lance Gibbs 33 158 24.24 75.7 12/ 2
Peter Pollock 24 101 25.22 57.7 8/ 1
Garry Sobers 33 125 27.93 76.3 5/ 0
Graham McKenzie 46 201 28.42 68.8 14/ 3
Wes Hall 30 100 29.17 57.8 3/ 0
David Allen 32 109 29.91 89.6 4/ 0
Fred Titmus 47 145 30.82 96.1 7/ 0

As you can see from the chart above Sobers actually was one of the best bowlers in the world during that period.His numbers are actually better than Wes Hall's numbers. Think about that.Remember only about 10 West Indians have taken 1,000 first class wickets and Sobers is one of them.