In reply to Star

i.e. without prejudice.

In reply to Admin

What fcukery question dat?

Didn't he tell people not to sign before?

Why he doan try dat again

Ent Sarwan and Gayle de catch sense....but weas convinced otherwise and dem fire de lawyer

If big man ent know which side dem bread buttered....den crapaud smoke dem pipe

In reply to Narper - Yuh see Ramnaswine learning....cricket must go on -

Since most ah dem guys have retainer contracts they cyah strike so. And dat is also y I feel WICB responsible for the WC fitness mess.

No defense of the players but how many here could function successfully under these circumstances? We must rid ourselves of the WICB Bandits. I will propose again that CC.Com publish the names, addresses and email addresses of all WICB Birectors so that we can tar and feather their sorry asses out of office.

In reply to bobby
Reality is that in the Caribbean a lot of people do now want to get actively involved in cricket administration. So the same people become directors year after year.
We get the directors we deserve because we are happy to criticize and not take meaningful action

In reply to Narper

And that's just what he would have done if the board had continued to play hardball and not agreed to submit to arbitration.

Damn, Wipa did not call a strike. I am really disappointed.

In reply to carl0002

Me too.

_r

Unlike all others I beg to differ in this case,if the players want more money they should earn it by winning games,series,competitions and not by striking and protesting.
This unprofessional conduct is unacceptable from a team of international sportsmen who should be proud to represent the West Indies at the highest level.I cannot begin to imagine after all that trashing in our World Cup these buggers made at least 180,000 US each minimium and are still locked in pay disputes.
If these players have any merit in them they will understand the board's financial position and play at least this series at a whatever rate the board can afford so that it can recover from deficit.

The statement of cutting the rot from the head should start at Mr.Ramnarine who it seems is hell bent on creating kaos and conflict in these sensitive & trying times.What a disgrace he is,I can still remember the test match against South Africa when he pretended to be suffering from cramps so much that Shaun Pollock then captain agreed to a draw by breaking the stumps on his own accord.
I sincerly hope Sarwan lift this team morally and intellectually and bring them to the realisation that the fans are pissed,all we keep hearing is another loss,players threaten to strike,tour in doubt.

Now ask yourself these questions:
1-Do you think Clive Lloyd's winning teams in 75 & 79 made this sort of money(US$180,000)in both tournaments
collectively?
2-Are you playing for the love and passion of the game or for the love of money?

My friends win and money/sponsorships/tv ads etc will come your way,don't belittle yourselves asking for money
when your performance doesn't merit an increase,you're only stifling your conscience.

In reply to redbaron

You know, less than an hour ago I just finish telling a so-call journalist the same thing. He was saying the WI players are the cause for the state of WI cricket, and his argument was how was it that the WI team of the 80's were playing under the same board...When I asked him about whether the English Countie played a part in molding those players, he still can't give me an answer.

In reply to bobby

I hear youy Bobby , I am also for such anexercise .

In reply to Baje

If they had Term Limitations that wouldnt happen .

Ever since I joined this MB in January 2003 I have called for TERM LIMITATIONS .

BUT MANY ON THIS MB SAY THEY DONT LIKE MY STYLE , WHAT THE HELL DOES STYLE HAVE TO DO WITH ANY FREAKING THING .

It is the substance that counts , but the asses keep nitpicking on minor things , while overlooking the essential points .

As I see this situation , the pertinent question must be :

IS THE DECISION BY THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF BARBADOS BINDING TO BOTH PARTIES . ??? .

I have no idea , so could we all be enlightened by someone who has knowledge about this issue ??? .

In reply to Admin

I am of the opinion that the WIPA STRONGLY BELIEVES THAT THEY HAVE A GOOD CASE .

Therefore I am not of the opinion that they should call a strike . That would be losing the war of Public Opinion .

I have taken note of the fact that the WIPA has already presented its case , the WICB has been procrastinating , so much so that it has been given a deadline to present its case .

I have also noted that it is the WICB THAT HAS BEEN TARDY REGARDING THIS MATTER . Not the WIPA .

The problem basically is that because the WICB , helped in the formation of the WIPA , it appears that it believes that the WIPA must always be subservient to it . But perhaps they were not told that those days done long time .

In reply to POINT Yes it is

In reply to ends

"- Do the actions of WIPA benefit ALL the region's cricketers or just the selected squad?"

The theory of rational expectations says yes it does. More pay for WI players means a higher potential future salary for all players in the region.

In reply to dravid

When you go to work do you do it for money?

Why do we have to keep explaining simple concepts to some of you? Sports is a BUSINESS, not a pastime or a hobby. It is work, and workers actually do work for money.

Now quit the silly hysteria and start thinking about this logically.

In reply to dravid

Jeezas krise, where do they find these idiots? Let me ask you pardnah, who is the party that is stalling and preventing the negotiations from proceeding? Who is the party that is seeking to go back on its agreements. Is it WIPA or WICB. You are either a dishonest skunt or equally ignorant if you have the view as expressed in the quote above.

In reply to Zikdaman

Did you actually post this?

In reply to nevavex

Yes

In reply to scross

You see my opinion is that the WICB doesnt view its relationship with its players as them being almost on par with the WICB .

This is a very sad mistake , because without the players , there aint going to be a WICB , why the members of the WICB havent grasped that fact is beyond my comprehension .

You need to enlighten them on this issue , I am sure that you have tried , but perhaps you can give them a more graphic and stark realization of the matter .

In reply to scross
The Arbitrator cannot reverse a contract agreement mutually signed by both parties.

If the players signed the contract with WIPA's permission, then there is no cause for arbitration.

However, there is a loophole in this particular matter, as you are aware of, allowing some wiggle room for WIPA based on the untrue public statement issued by the WICB's CEO.

If the contracts were signed after the CEO's public statement (re the now famous lie attributed to the Chief Justice) WIPA is safe. If the contracts were signed before the public statement, then WIPA is in trouble.

I really do hope that Ramnarine not call for a strike WHEN they win arbitration.

It will be painful watching a big man look like an ass, pecking a fight, and then realize everybody bail on him.

In reply to Zikdaman

I don't know you and wouldn't try to judge you but based on your post you seem to think these losers deserve more money.
I wasn't trying to say they should play for free,ask yourself whoelse in the caribbean make that much money on a losing cause.
It's people like you than run companies bankrupt.

In reply to Zikdaman

I don't know you and wouldn't try to judge you but based on your post you seem to think these losers deserve more money.
I wasn't trying to say they should play for free,ask yourself whoelse in the caribbean make that much money on a loseing cause.
It's people like you than run companies bankrupt.

In reply to Zikdaman
Yes I and all of us work for money but I don't demand an increase when I know it's not justified.
The WICB should withdraw all retainer contracts and implement a short term contracts per tour with fixed fees and performance incentives.The indian criket board already did that.
Then the race to win and earn will be on.
These retainer contracts makes the players feel they are indispensible.

In reply to dravid Yuh see, Zicks has a one track mind on this issue. He believes the players should get most of the money generated from cricket because the cricketers are the ones creating the inflow of money thru gate receipts, tv rights, etc. I posed a question to him yet he will not answer. And that is, why farmer George can't seem to get the most money for his part in producing the goods he does in his line of business??? And remember now, farmer George is the most important man on this planet, as far as i'm concerned. :lol:

In reply to Rastaman

There are about 3 billion farmer georges who are easily replaced.

There are very few world class WI players and if you don't nurture and pay them well their supply will diminish.

Why do you think in every well run professional - English Premier, NBA, NFL - the players get most of the money they generate?

But you are happy with foreigners being treated well but say our local West Indies boys should be treated like fuedal peasanst and take what they are offered and shut up?

Why the double standards? Are gifted West Indian young men somehow inferior to young men elsewhere and should be treated as such?

In reply to sabina

don't try to attribute that statement to I&I. As far as I know the WI players today are being paid handsomely and could hardly be called 'fuedal peasants' in any stretch of the imagination.

So by your statements yuh acknowledge the supply and demand convolution of this issue. I remember clearly that a so-called 'scab team' was put together for the last series the WI played in Sri Lanka. Well, the WICB wanted men to play, that's the "demand" side. And the "scab" players had some "supply" the WICB wanted. ENT???

And by the way, you cannot compare a professional outfit in the english premier league or an NFL team to that of the WI cricket setup. No sir, don't do it, or yuh look very silly doing so. Words like productivity, efficiency, performace, accountability, discipline, etc. etc, will come to mind when talking about these prof outfits. The WI cricket team is another matter altogether. And yuh darn well know it sah!!!!!!!!!

In reply to Rastaman

"Words like productivity, efficiency, performace, accountability, discipline, etc. etc, will come to mind when talking about these prof outfits. The WI cricket team is another matter altogether."

Yup, it's a widely accepted fact that WI cricketers are inherently mentally and physically inferior to their counterparts in OZ and US and should be treated and paid as such.

Why bother wasting proper management and intelligent coaches and modern sports science on inherently inferior and apparently sub-human beings?

And as Garyg rightly pointed out, we can't possibly allow such unintelligent creatures to actually form a union and elect a union head to represent them. Far better to allow their superiors and betters at the WICB to tell them just what is good for them.

In reply to sabina Yuh are missing the point or yuh being disingenuous. The stance taken against players cannot be construed to mean they are lazy, unintelligent and worthless. They are not inferior mentally and physically to the OZ players.

But I do see the OZ players performing to a higher level, don't yuh??? And, the OZ system is largely more developed and is more efficient. Yuh can hardly say WI players gonna earn as much as OZ players, in general, when yuh compare the performance of both sets of players and the economies that support both teams.

I've not really commented on the arbitration issue, since he arbitrators will decide one way or the other on the same issue and it seems tome like one of these how many angels can dance on the head ofa pin type issues. Whats at issue here really?
Admin, speak up. Why should matter whether this is an FTP tour or not/

In reply to Rastaman

"But I do see the OZ players performing to a higher level, don't yuh??? And, the OZ system is largely more developed and is more efficient. "

Related facts?

In reply to carib If FTP no money forthcoming.

In reply to carib

"Whats at issue here really? "

The WICB lying. Again.

In reply to sabina related??? Yuh the one bringing OZ players and the like into the discussion!!!

In reply to dravid

Neither are the players. What's your point?

In reply to dravid

Let's see, the WICB.

Case dismissed...now pack up your things and go home.

In reply to dravid
You are 100% right in your accessment, they should all get a flat rate and be paid incentives consumate with their individual performance, then we would see people working hard to make their money. These under achievers we the highest paid team in the WC, 180K being the minimun and BCL at the top with 250K and we could not even make the semis and finish 6th. Pay them for talent not base on potential. In any other business if you don't perform you get fired, in the WI you don't perform and you get pay increase. This is a sure formula for destruction!

In reply to bunnyb

Who was the highest paid board in the WC? How well did they perform?

In reply to sabina
Are you sure about what you say, Premier League, NBA, NFL ectra, don't run their business to give the players all the money, profit is there bottom line or they would go bankrupt. Players are also compensated consumate to their talent, but the OWNERS makes money of unbelievably proportion from marketing items, TV rights, concessions, Parking etc. Get the fact before talking as its early to obtain!

In reply to sabina
Are you sure about what you say, Premier League, NBA, NFL ectra, don't run their business to give the players all the money, profit is there bottom line or they would go bankrupt. Players are also compensated consumate to their talent, but the OWNERS makes money of unbelievably proportion from marketing items, TV rights, concessions, Parking etc. Get the fact before talking as its early to obtain!

In reply to bunnyb

The successful sports leagues you mentioned spend a lot higher percentage of their revenue on their players than does the WICB.

In reply to Zikdaman I have no problem with players being paid, for performing - are our players performing and making us proud?

In reply to bunnyb

Now try and get your mind away from your emotions and let's conduct some analysis based on logic. Is the WICB getting revenue from the actions of the players?

In reply to Zikdaman
If truth be known, both players and WICB should be working for free!! And please note I do not get emotional, I am totally detached, and that is why I can aproach this thing objectively. I think some of us get too emotional on the blog and should be careful or heart attack or stroke. Some of the venom that is spewed out here is unbelievable.

In reply to Zikdaman

My point was already stated,are you that dense that you cannot comprehend as yet.
For your sake I will re-emphasis myself in different words as follows:
1-The WIPA needs to go,as long as we have this union things will never change.
2-The players are making more money than their performance warrants.
3-The players should be paid flat rate with added performance incentives.
4-All parties involved need to display maturity(including you)and find the best possible
solution for the crisis at hand.

Now you read carefully,read again then pack up and leave you are only flattering yourself.
Roger!!!

I can't believe the amount of vitriol that has been spouted on this and other forum topics about this issue.

I think everyone agrees that the players' performances have been substandard and they need to be incentivised (on the pay front) to change their ways. And if the figures on this board for player WC earnings are true, then WICB are clearly a bunch of idiots and the players got the better of them on that one.

However, based on everything that I have read and heard, there is no doubt in my mind that the following is true:

- WICB originally confirmed to WIPA that the England tour fell outside their standard pay agreement, and given this WIPA had every right to expect additional pay for it.

- WICB completely ignored WIPA's repeated calls (last 4 months) to discuss the terms for the tour.

- WICB then changed their stance on the status of the England tour without supplying the reasoning for doing so to WIPA.

- Someone is being economical with the truth about the status of the arbitration, and based on the public (supposedly verbatim) quotes from Aanensen, Simmons and Ramnarine, one can only conclude that the guilty party is the WICB.

And this kind of treatment/behaviour is not restricted to interaction with locals. Does anyone remember how WICB treated the old team physio - Dennis Waite?


My question is, how can WICB expect to get the players to perform their best when there are such strong grounds for mistrust between WICB and WIPA? Which one of us would continue to work for, or indeed give our best to, an organisation that tries to wiggle out of every pay agreement it makes and distorts the truth in public about issues that are a matter of written record?

Given the above, and ignoring the amounts of pay that have been agreed to date for all previous events, all that Ramnarine has been doing in this dispute is trying to do the right thing for the players within the terms of the agreements that they have with the WICB. Those of the WIPA communications made public that I have seen to date have been quite clear and reasoned and not at all inflamatory.

It is the WICB that has established bad agreements, has been using inflamatory arguments and is now acting in bad faith - and in European or American law their actions would be seen as a breach of contract - or grounds for a lawsuit for constructive dismissal.

I think WIPA scores a "win win" by signing the oontracts "subject to the outcome of the arbitration". By doing so they have not really changed their stance - they are portraying themselves as the good guys - acting in the interest of cricket. They could have gone on strike but they have not. The point is that if the arbitation rules in their favour, which seems likely if WICB don't get their act together, then they win (or they win the right to fight with WICB for the pay they have been awarded). If it rules against them then they have not lost.

It's all this peripheral rubbish that detracts from the real problems, which are:

- How do we reform the WICB to make it accountable to the region for its performance or lack thereof (a bad workman always blames his tools)?

- How do we ensure that the region's cricket talent is spotted and developed to its fullest potential?

- How do we incentivise the players to perform to their potential when representing the region?

- How do we instil discipline in the players and get them to understand and do what's needed to get us back to the top of the sport internationally and stay there?

Those questions have been and will continue to be the subject of many future debates.....

In reply to redbaron

When does two wrongs equate to right? If the father is a career criminal, does it follow that the offsprings are also criminal-minded? You talk about clueless, based on your response you have removed all doubts about your simple-mindedness.

And further, the inference from your response is that the cricketers are a bunch of mindless goons who are merely aping the idiots that comprise the WICB. Maybe they are, and if so, I stand corrected.

In reply to dravid

A typically silly statement coming straight from the emotional part of your brain and not the part that processes logic. Without unions, employers most times get to take advantage of workers. This is why it is best for players to bargain collectively and use the power of many if they are to get fair treatment. Every major sports league in the US has to deal with a players' union. It doesn't prevent the league from being successful. SO tell me, why can unions work in the US but not in the caribbean? You hate your caribbean brethren that much?


The players don't pick themselves. WIPA doesn't pick the players. What is preventing the WICB from picking players who "perform?" They have full access to every cricketer in the region. It is their responsibility to pick players who will perform.

They are. They actualy get paid more if they win.

Nothing you have written thus far indicates that you have a clue as to the solution to the crisis.

In reply to Zikdaman

\
YOU ARE CLUELESS....AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SO

Everything YOU has written shows you are a partisan IDIOT

And doan care for a solution

Crisis make your day....and life....otherwise emptimness .......

In reply to BourdaGyal
It is slowly getting to the stage where women should take over the WICB.
The old boys club is no longer functioning, no longer of sound mind and continue to have a massa mentality towards players and spectators alike.
Regional boards have to change, which means more of us have to get involved in club cricket and vote these guys out.
Anyone who advocates confidentiality and accountability in the same sentence, needs to go!