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The Palestinians

 
ProWI 2014-07-22 05:49:43 

The Demise of Conscience

 
ProWI 2014-07-22 05:54:55 

Killing with "kindness"

 
ProWI 2014-07-22 06:04:10 

The demise of the Two-state Solution

 
ProWI 2014-07-22 06:10:53 

Right from the horse's mouth

When "Never again" for one means "never, never, ever!" for another.

 
Lenks 2014-07-22 08:33:37 

In reply to ProWI

Though I'm reading all articles for the first time.....first article reads like something I wrote, just that I actually didn't...

 
BeatDball 2014-07-22 10:36:26 

Pleez, somebloody tell me: what gine happen with these two people? Is the next big war gine start here? I just dont know which sides to take....

 
Scar 2014-07-22 12:20:05 

In reply to BeatDball
Just dont! Religioys diferences are yhe hardest if not impossible to overcome. This is the UN doing after WW2 and euros will be danged before sdmitting it was a mistake to take people they didnt want in europe and throw them in the middle east end if Africa.

 
BeatDball 2014-07-22 12:31:12 

In reply to Scar Ouch! That gine hoit dem israelis! Heard they wanted to create israel in africa, but.....

 
Khary9 2014-07-22 13:15:23 

This conflict has nothing to do with religion.

 
JohnDoe 2014-07-22 13:32:28 

In reply to BeatDball

In attempting to get rid of their Jewish problem, the powers that be proposed creating a Jewish state in several parts of the world including dear ole British Guiana.

In March 1940, the issue of an alternative Jewish Homeland was raised and British Guiana (now Guyana) was discussed in this context. But the British Government decided that "the problem is at present too problematical to admit of the adoption of a definite policy and must be left for the decision of some future Government in years to come".

Link Text

 
Scar 2014-07-22 15:56:51 

In reply to Khary9 Really! Thr base problem is just that. The euros didnt want the "JEWS" and the unprotected Paliistine was the ideal dumping ground. Last time I checked "jews" a word first used by the Romans to isolate and ostracize those who practised judaism was religioud on nature. The crux of the matter is religion based where ones homeland was taken away to afford displacement of another unwanted religious sect. It since festered and grew/spread into other things.

 
Scar 2014-07-22 16:00:46 

In reply to JohnDoe It is woth noting they took pains to not call themselves Israelites. Of course Judeah was only one twelth of the tribes but was the tribe of priests which history says also fought battles with sister tribes. Dem been wanting to tek ovah neighbors for ancient years.


big grin

 
BeatDball 2014-07-22 16:05:33 

In reply to JohnDoe Raaas! Glad u apprised us of this; but, now meh know.

 
Khary9 2014-07-22 16:58:48 

In reply to Scar

When I say religion, I am talking about the rites, rituals and customs that make a faith unique.

This conflict is about politics and economics.

If people claiming to be Buddhists were in need of a "homeland" back in the early twentieth century, we'd be just as wrong characterizing this struggle as an Islam vs. Buddhism conflict.

A number of factors prove religion has nothing to do with it.

#1 the state of Israel is ZIONIST, rather than "Jewish"
#2 No religion is practiced less by its practitioners than Judaism
#3 Judaism has more to do with maternal ancestry than religious rites and Palestinians, in this sense, are just as, even more "jewish" than most of the european zionists

 
Khary9 2014-07-22 17:00:30 

Jewish Religious Opposition to Zionism

The State of Israel is a secular state: its law, its legislative assembly (the Knesset), and the majority of its population are non-religious. This is hardly surprising as Israel came into existence due to the efforts of a secular political movement motivated by non-religious nationalism, namely political Zionism. In its early days Zionism came into fierce conflict with religious Jewry. The Zionists rejected religious submissiveness; the religious saw the atheist attempt to create a secular Jewish state as blasphemy.19

 
np 2014-07-22 17:51:56 

In reply to Khary9

This is a most interesting section of the same material Khary9 posted above - the very last 2 paragraphs ... I wonder what that "small" Front-Against-Progress-for Palestine(FAPP) that popped up here on CC.com has to say about it ... read on.

One of the most articulate and vocal critics in Canada today of Israel's policies towards the Palestinians is Rabbi Reuben Slonim. He is a spiritual Zionist ... in 1983 he wrote:
Today we Jews are losing [the] humanism and universalism of Judaism, all for the sake of Jewish statehood. We love Israel, and so we should, but we are so blinded by that love that we are willing to pay a prohibitive price for it. We condone acts we would declare unconscionable anywhere else in the world: nuclear weapons are wrong but necessary for Israel; apartheid is wrong, but for the sake of Israel's survival we will tolerate it; human rights are critical, but not for the Palestinians; we have a right to a state but Palestinians do not. Our racism towards Arabs would be regarded as anti-Semitism if others spoke of us in the same light. In all things we need to remember that the Jewish people and the Jewish state are but instruments, not ends in themselves; that what is good for the world is good for the Jews, not what is good for the Jews is good for the world; that the ultimate goal of the Jew, if he be truly Jewish, is to serve humanity.

 
Scar 2014-07-22 20:51:37 

In reply to Khary9
I know that the so called claim to being Jewish is based on maternal lineage from the tribe of Judeah bro. But we must remember that religion in itself is political as it also organizes itself around power,control, economics, and laws that govern each. The original Israel was not all Jewish as I pointed out earlier (Josephs descendants were not maternally so), and yes Judeah priests were charged with maintaining the customs and practices, based on covenants etc of the Hebrew faith.
Even then the practices were left up to the priests rather than the masses.
I would venture that in alk religions today the majority are not steadfast in their practices, however they are more so in their beliefs. Most peeps observe important religious occasions rather than daily rituals. I think my grandmom said her Polish jew father did just that.
You and I may understand the depth if this but many of the every day folk who develop anti jewish behavior see it as religious practicing or not. They were not hated or kicked out of Europe for
being other than Jewish, their mid-east fanatic neighbors feed the populate on hatred of a Jewish state not because of economics. That comes as a secondary excuse to garner support, if every jew was to leave Israel now and catholics become dominant it would be the infidels, idol worshipers.
The point we all agree on though is that were it not for the political and economic motives of the europeans Israel today would not be.

 
POINT 2014-07-22 22:02:51 

What is strange , is the fact that they are COUSINS .

 
Khary9 2014-07-22 22:17:04 

In reply to POINT

Thats it in a nutshell, though I can definitely see Scar's point.

Most of the religious folk on both sides would not have a problem living along side one another. I believe there is genuine respect between the sincere of both faiths, but it is the politicians and money makers, the bad mind, who keep stoking this fire...and that is mostly on the so-called "Jewish" side.

 
BeatDball 2014-07-22 22:43:03 

In reply to POINT Kin feud is the most horrific.

 
Benjie 2014-07-23 02:14:35 

In reply to ProWI

What's your point of view ? How can there be peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians ? These folks have been in conflict for decades but the elevation to Hamas in Gaza has escalated matters. Hamas had refused the two state solution and furthermore called for the eradication of the state of Israel. Israel responded by laying siege the West Bank claiming that it has to protect itself against a sworn enemy.

The solution IMO is that Israel must lift the siege and allow the people of Gaza to live freely. The problem with that is that as long as Hamas does not renounce its objective of wiping Israel off the map, then the its unlikely that the Israelis will simply allow them to reign freely in Gaza. So Hamas must make the first move and accept that there must be a two state solution. Yes, the land was originally the Palestinians but unfortunately we live in an imperfect world where might is right. History is full of examples of battles and conquests. The islands of the Caribbean "belong" to the kalinagos but its the Africans, Indians and Europeans who live here and claim ownership. The Jews were moved to the middle east by the world powers at the time and they resided on a small track of land. They were attacked twice by the Arabs and won two successive wars and as a result claimed some more land. That's just how things works. You win a war and you take the spoils . Palestinians ( Hamas) just needs to accept that there must be two sates. Its a small very easy step to peace.

Israel would then need to lift the blockade and compensate the Palestinians for the damaged caused. Its a way of resetting the situation and preparing for a discussion of the two state solution. If after the foregoing, rockets continue to be lobbed into Israel, then it would be justified in defending itself by any means.

A formula for lasting peace is complicated and probably doesn't exist. I believe though, that some simple things can be done to bring about relative peaceful conditions in the region.

 
ProWI 2014-07-23 02:44:17 

In reply to Benjie

Rather than constantly spouting propaganda, seriously ask yourself how can Hamas wipe Israel off the map.

Once you can disabuse yourself of that notion, then , maybe, you and others who so easily go for that emotional talk-point can seriously start to address the issues involved.

Hamas saying it wants to wipe Israel off the map and Israelis saying there should be no two-state solution are just two extremes of the issue facing the parties involved. Which of those two extremes do you think are are more likely to come into fruition?

 
Benjie 2014-07-23 10:19:05 

In reply to ProWI

So what do you think needs to happen for there to be lasting peace ? This is just a genuine question to raise the level of the debate and
avoid the extremist views from either side. No need for insulting language.

 
Runs 2014-07-24 02:38:08 

In reply to JohnDoe

What a thing Guyana could have been The Holy Land lol

 
ProWI 2014-07-24 03:02:20 

In reply to Benjie

Did you take the time to read the first article I linked at the beginning of this thread? If you haven't try reading it.

The basis of a solution is the return to the 1967 borders. As for Jerusalem, I say make it a neutral zone.

Now, I know that recommendation would never satisfy the two rivals for dominance. For both, this has become a zero-sum game.

 
ProWI 2014-07-24 03:06:45 

In reply to Runs

What a thing Guyana could have been The Holy Land


...Instead, it became The Jones Land

 
hotarobin 2014-07-24 03:38:55 

In reply to Benjie

Yes, the land was originally the Palestinians


really!!

 
Lenks 2014-07-24 05:20:38 

In reply to Benjie

The Jews were moved to the middle east by the world powers at the time and they resided on a small track of land. They were attacked twice by the Arabs and won two successive wars and as a result claimed some more land. That's just how things works. You win a war and you take the spoils . Palestinians ( Hamas) just needs to accept that there must be two sates. Its a small very easy step to peace.


Not true!!!

Technically, the only land they now have as a result of the wars is part of Golan Heights...

Gaza, part of original Israel was controlled by Egypt. West Bank, part of original Israel was controlled by Jordan.

In reply to ProWI

The basis of a solution is the return to the 1967 borders.


Since then, Gaza has shrunk a little and West Bank shrunk big time.

Don't think Egypt would want back control of Gaza. Neither do I think Jordan would want back control of West Bank.

Sure Palestinians would welcome having back a full Gaza and West Bank but they would still be in "wide open prisons"....

What they need is a buffer between each other and some form of accessibility for Palestinians to go between West Bank and Gaza...'tho West Bank and Gaza ruled by different government...